Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have a personal interest in this most important Bill, as medicines have saved my life on several occasions, and I use several medical devices. But most important to me is the safety of our country in this difficult time of coronavirus and leaving the EU.

The Secretary of State has an immense responsibility in providing safe functions relating to medicines for humans and animals and to medical devices. Leaving the EU means that we will not have the advantage of voting at the European Medicines Agency, where we were among the leaders, and it puts extra stresses and strains on our MHRA. The MHRA works so well with the European Medicines Agency, which has now moved from London to Amsterdam. I ask the Minister: will the MHRA be given more support and funds to carry out its extra and vital work? What will happen with clinical trials in the UK, which are based on the EU clinical trials directive and operate through the MHRA? It is not expected to apply in the EU until after the end of the transition period. This means it will not be part of the EU law, so what will the UK do about this important matter? My noble friend Lord Kakkar also stressed this.

Thousands of clinical trials seeking new treatments for diseases, including cancer, heart disease and many rare conditions, have been suspended or abandoned in the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic. Charities that raise money to provide funds have lost millions of pounds in revenue that would go a long way to helping to research new medicines and therapies that are desperately needed. Coronavirus has cast a shadow across the world. We should work together to fight this disease. But the emphasis on the attractiveness of the UK to conduct clinical trials or develop medical devices must not be put before patient and user safety.

The Bill covers so many aspects of safety. I have been involved with the disaster of sodium valproate, the drug given to pregnant women with epilepsy; their children were born with autism. I hope that the recommendations of the Cumberlege report will be accepted, especially the creation of the post of patient commissioner. I am pleased that the Bill addresses the dangers of falsified medicines. However, the Company Chemists’ Association would like to avoid the unintended consequences of data being used for purposes other than to ensure that medicines are safe. It is asking for “any purpose” to be amended to “in agreed framework”.

Everyone to whom I have spoken agrees that we should maintain the highest possible standards of patient and animal safety. I hope that we can work globally and not become isolated.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, Amendment 3 makes clear the desirability of alignment with the EMA and the EU clinical trials regulations. It sets out early in the Bill the store for those of us who feel that the advantages we have gained from such alignment must not be sacrificed on the altar of some mistaken ideology of this failed Government. I point out to the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, that we managed to introduce the HPV vaccine before we left the European Union.

Amendment 22 attempts to define the rather vague expression “attractiveness”. We have other definitions in later clauses; we certainly need to choose one of them but I will leave my preference for a later debate.

I support Amendments 34 to 39 to Clause 4 on clinical trials. As my noble friend Lord Sharkey pointed out, they tighten up the wording in the Bill to emphasise the benefits and avoid the damage of diversion from EU clinical trials regulations. British patients benefit from alignment, British bioscience research and development benefits, and the whole system is worth millions of pounds to the Exchequer. I and other noble Lords have received briefings from a number of organisations working on behalf of patients, such as the British Heart Foundation, emphasising that any diversion from these regulations will affect the rapid availability of new medicines and treatments to British patients. They are also concerned to protect the large amount of EU research funding that they currently receive. Diversion could also affect, to use the Government’s favourite word, the attractiveness of the UK as a place to conduct clinical trials. The problem is that the Government have not told us what they might want to change unilaterally in future, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out. I invite the Minister to tell us now.

Amendment 39 asks the Government to establish a clinical trials portal that aligns us with the EMA regulations for medicines for rare diseases. This is particularly important if we are independent from the EU as our population of 68 million is so much smaller than the EU population of more than 400 million, which would make it harder to find a big enough cohort of people with rare diseases for a clinical trial. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, pointed that out.

The EU clinical trials portal, which will come into play with the new and improved EU clinical trials regulations in 2022, was to a great extent designed by British participants. This shows how important it is considered to be by British scientists because it makes applications for clinical trials so much easier and less time-consuming. In its previous inquiry, the Science and Technology Committee heard from a number of witnesses about the issues with the current system, which wastes a lot of their time. So, like the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, I feel sad to know that we will be out of the system by the time the improvements are put in place.

Our current alignment also encourages British scientists to go abroad to broaden their expertise and EU scientists to come here and become part of our very successful research teams. I know the Government are in favour of that because I heard Amanda Solloway, the Science Minister in BEIS, say so last week to your Lordships’ Science and Technology Select Committee. I hope, therefore, the Minister will be minded to accept the amendment.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments, especially Amendment 22, but I first congratulate the Minister on his stamina and enthusiasm at this incredibly difficult time. I hope he will be able to answer some of our questions.

I spoke at Second Reading of the need to provide an attractive life science environment for researchers coming from abroad. If we are to recruit the brightest and the best to work in research and clinical trials with the highest standards, we must improve. How will this be achieved? Should they not feel welcome and needed?

Can the Minister assure your Lordships that there will be no barriers to access to medicines for UK citizens?

How can we still have a regulatory leadership role following the UK’s exit from the European Union and the European Medicines Agency? We must not become isolated. I hope we will still collaborate with the EMA and other international regulators. We desperately need new medicines for the very rare diseases. There is nothing more frustrating than other countries having medicines which are denied to people living in England.

I hope the Government will accept the need to incorporate these points, which have been expressed today, to make the Bill clearer and more positive and will put their own amendments down on Report to further improve it.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 125 in the name of my noble friend Lady Jolly. Like other amendments, it aims to probe the Government on their plans for future regulatory alignment with the European Union following Brexit. It also seeks to ensure that we seek full membership of any bodies or agencies that help safeguard regulatory alignment and standards in medicines and medical devices.

The EU and UK markets for medicines and medical devices are closely linked. According to the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry, at least 45 million packs of medicines are exported monthly from the UK to the EU, and 37 million packs come the other way. The UK also relies heavily on the EU for its supply of medical devices, with more than half of its 5 billion imported medical technology originating in the EU.

The European Medicines Agency provides a centralised approval procedure for licensing to allow pharmaceutical companies to submit a single marketing authorisation which, once granted, is valid across the EU and EEA. Given its role in harmonising the regulation of clinical trials, about which we have heard much during this debate, it is clear that divergence would have a major impact on people in the UK and the EU. With respect to medicines, should the UK develop a significantly different regulatory process to the EMA for medicines regulation, the increased regulatory burden on pharmaceutical companies could lead them to prioritise the much larger EEA market over the UK’s. This could cause delays in new drugs being made available for patients in the UK and vice versa. What is the Government’s analysis of potential delays? Is it in the order of 12 to 24 months, as some have said?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]]

I fully support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, and pay tribute to her for all the hard work that she put in—and for her coping with such harrowing experiences.

I hope very much that the Bill will prevent any such disaster as the use of mesh in operations in the pelvis. If experts had been consulted, they would almost certainly have warned that putting rigid materials under tension in such a position would run a very serious risk of acting just like a cheese cutter.

I emphasise what my noble friend said about safety, which is of overriding importance. I feel certain that, as many speakers have already said, it must become an essential part of the Bill.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly support Amendment 74 and similar amendments in this group. Nothing is more important than safety in all medicines and medical devices. First Do No Harm, the excellent report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, highlights that patients should be listened to. They are the people taking medicines and using medical devices. In the last few months, coronavirus has cast a shadow over other needs, but safety is paramount for everyone. Masks and all PPE are in demand worldwide. Has the UK got an ongoing adequate supply?

The correct dressings for patients with wounds is an important safety issue. There is a lack of tissue viability nurses to give expert advice in rural areas. If NHS trusts and CCGs had joint working in local areas, this would increase capacity and save resources. If the correct treatment is not given, there can be long-term problems.

Patient safety will be improved if patient experience is listened to. Patient groups, academic researchers and medical research charities should work together to find the best solutions. Some of the technologies for blind people and people with speech problems are amazing. It is essential for the safety of patients that all staff and patients using medical devices should be trained in their use. A medical device turned off when it should be on can cause a disaster; the wrong substance in a drip can be fatal; and not listening to patients or their families about allergic reactions to medication, with doctors ignoring this information and prescribing the wrong medicine, can be a serious safety issue.

I hope that the Minister agrees that safety in everything should be paramount and should be the overriding consideration of this Bill. I hope that the Minister will do his very best to help with this matter.

[Lord Kakkar (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I would like to support Amendments 10, 12, 74 and 75, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and in so doing recognise the very powerful and thoughtful interventions by many noble Lords on this group.

It is clear that there is really no dispute in recognising that safety, availability and attractiveness are all important elements in securing, promoting and safeguarding public health. The question simply is whether safety should be given priority. The report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, is clear in having identified, in a number of specific instances, why the system failed because safety was not at the forefront of the obligation and, in particular, the regulatory obligation.

The question is how best to ensure safety going forwards when as a country we have the opportunity to establish a new regulatory environment for medicines, medical devices and veterinary medical products. The four amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and other noble Lords provide the opportunity to explore the Government’s thinking in this regard.

Why would Her Majesty’s Government not prioritise safety over the other two important objectives? The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, in his thoughtful intervention, has suggested that there may be potential for patients to be denied experimental or targeted interventions as the result of inadvertent limitation by way of the regulatory regimen. At present, of course, we have the capacity to intervene with such medicinal products to ensure that, where it is appropriate, sensible and in the interests of the individual patient, interventions can be provided with less extensive clinical evaluation. However, as a general rule, for the entirety of the population where there is broad and relatively unfettered prescription, surely it is right that fellow citizens should expect that interventions—medicinal or medical devices—that are available to their clinicians for a prescription in their individual cases are, first and foremost, safe.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

That was commendably brief. I call the next speaker.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in supporting Amendment 61 and the others in this group, I declare an interest as I have a farm and I often use vets, who supply veterinary products and medicines. I must say that vets have been exceedingly careful and all precautions have been taken that have been put in place for protection over Covid-19. The Veterinary Medicines Directorate protects animal and public health and the environment. This needs our support, which this amendment provides, as it ensures that safety remains a priority.

In recent years, over half the veterinary surgeons who register in the UK each year have qualified elsewhere in the EU and the EEA—38.5% from the UK, 52% from the EU and EEA, and 9.5% from other countries. Free movement of people has had an enormous impact on our veterinary workforce. Additional barriers to the movement of EEA-qualified vets to the UK will have significant consequences for animal health and welfare, public health and trade. If understaffing happens, it will become a safety issue. Some 95% of the veterinary workforce in abattoirs graduated overseas, mainly from the EU. This information comes from the British Veterinary Association. Does Regulation (EU) 2019/6 on veterinary medicinal products aim to make more medicines available in the EU to treat and prevent diseases in animals through simplifying our procedures for obtaining a marketing authorisation and reviewing incentives for breakthrough medicines? The Bill provides the means to make “corresponding or similar provision” to both regulations. Will the Minister give an assurance that that will happen? It is a safety issue and very important.

To make the UK an attractive place to do research and development, the much-needed bright people coming from abroad should feel wanted and safe. It is time that the UK realises that we cannot achieve the high standards that we want without help from others in veterinary science. We should be welcoming and kind to each other. I hope that the Minister will help to prioritise safety in this important Bill. I send my best wishes to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, and hope that she gets better soon.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, about the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. I am sure that we all send her our very best wishes.

I speak on the amendments tabled by my noble friend the Minister. However, on a quick clarification on something that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said in the last debate, which is germane to this debate, I was not making the point that I believe that there can be trade-offs between safety and attractiveness as the Bill currently defines it. Rather it was around the effectiveness and efficacy of medicines and medical devices—points that were, thankfully, made much more clearly by my noble friend Lord Lansley than they were by me—and the impact on what that means for safety and its overridingness as a priority, even if it is always our most important consideration.

On the substance of the amendments, I am sure that my noble friend was not expecting complete consensus around his amendments and he certainly has not found it yet. However, I applaud him for his clarifications on the impact of the attractiveness subsection and also applaud him for moving so quickly in response to noble Lords’ concerns. None the less, there is an issue around this, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, brought out. It is an unfortunate truth that the NHS has a poor history of performance in scaling up innovative medicines and devices. I know that that is something that my noble friend is very concerned about.

I have a specific question in this area. In asking it, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests, in particular as an adviser to Healthy.io. Do my noble friend’s plans for improving the attractiveness of the UK include improving the attractiveness of the UK as a place to develop, trial and scale data-driven health technologies? I know that we will come to that topic later, when the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has his amendments, but can my noble friend confirm that they are included in the definition of devices and explain his intentions in this regard?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, first, I apologise for not being able to participate at earlier stages of the Bill because of the clash with speaking in the Chamber. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on introducing these amendments and, especially, my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for all her work in preparing her report in advance of this. I also thank the Minister, my noble friend Lord Bethell, for briefing us this morning. I will particularly speak in favour of Amendments 100 and 101.

I hope that my noble friend the Minister will look favourably on patients being able to report directly to the register. The testimony that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and others heard in the context of her report was very moving. As my noble friend Lord Ribeiro said, it is absolutely essential that the voice of patients is heard. This absolutely goes to the heart of medical and surgical treatment. We must ensure that, whether they have had a good or a bad experience, patients are able to place their experiences on the record. Amendments 100 and 101 go some way to achieving that. Were my noble friend not to like those amendments, I hope that the Government would come forward with a similar provision to put our minds at rest. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for these amendments, and I lend my support to them.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Amendments 100 and 101 make clear that there should be means by which patients can report into registries directly so that they can be heard even if there is divergence of opinion with their clinician. Patients need to be protected. I support all the amendments in this group and thank those who tabled them, giving extra thanks to my noble friend Lady Finlay, who works so hard.

This is exceedingly important for many patients who have rare and complicated conditions. I speak from experience, as a high-lesion paraplegic. Many GPs and general doctors or surgeons may not be familiar with several of the peculiarities and may not understand the patient’s needs. For people with spinal injuries, for example, the three Bs are very important: bowels, bladders and bedsores. If not treated by specialists, patients can get into serious problems. Severely disabled people use all sorts of complicated devices that need to be kept on a register and to be easy to track if they go wrong. Suitable mechanisms should be found for the variety of needs, which can be inside and outside the body. This is particularly difficult in this time of Covid-19.

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[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

Thank you. My Lords, I have nearly finished. I conclude by saying that a patient safety commissioner will be a champion to mobilise changes and deliver necessary improvements. This is vital for creating a healthier system that works for everyone because it can listen to everyone. We must ensure that historical or recent scandals are not repeated, and we must therefore accept this amendment.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I would support an independent patient safety commissioner, as its aim would be to

“promote and improve patient safety with respect to the use of medicines and medical devices,”

which is vital. In the past years there have been some tragic cases: patients have been left in long-term pain after operations with medical mesh; pregnant women have taken medicines that have caused disabilities in their children; and people have died due to the wrong dose of morphine or potassium chloride by the wrong button being pressed on the infusion pump.

I hope that, if established, the patient safety commissioner would be able to help patients from the private health sector as well. There have been some unfortunate incidents in plastic surgery, for example.

I would like to ask a few questions, but I do not know whether it is the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, or the Minister who can answer them. The NHS is so huge and has so many different bodies and groups. Many people get confused about who does what. Would the patient safety commissioner co-operate with the Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch and the Citizens’ Partnership, which will work with HSIB on healthcare safety investigations?

AvMA—Action against Medical Accidents—which works for patient safety and justice, would be happy to work with an independent patient safety commissioner. Would that be helpful? Many all-party groups take evidence from patients and experts on safety issues. Would the safety commissioner be interested in collecting the data and promoting what is appropriate? A great deal of time, energy and experience goes into producing these reports.

There are still cover-ups and fears about reporting safety issues. Patients and their supporters need to feel that their voices are heard and will be acted on independently, and that they will stay safe and not be victimised for reporting patient safety matters. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, for her report and for bringing this subject up the agenda to where it should stay, with the lead of a patient safety commissioner.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I can only begin this contribution, as I did at Second Reading, by paying tribute to the power and importance of the report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, as so many other noble Lords have. I also note that the length of the list of Peers speaking to this amendment reflects the fact that this is perhaps the most important element of her recommendations, or certainly the most easily and directly deliverable through legislation.

When thinking about how I could contribute within this long list of speakers in a positive way, I decided to go back to the noble Baroness’s report and to the patients who spoke to her. If I were delivering this as a public speech, I would at this point deliver a trigger warning: what I am about to say is very disturbing. That needs to be said now.

I will quote three of the patients quoted in the noble Baroness’s report. The first is identified as a mesh-affected patient who said:

“I have had a constant battle to get the help and treatment I needed with my mesh complications. ‘Gaslighting’ and a ‘fobbing off’ culture appears to be rife”.


The second quote is from a former GP and mesh-affected patient:

“I do … believe there is a huge unconscious negative bias among you all towards middle aged females in chronic pain.”


Finally, the third quote is from Teresa Hughes, from Meshies United:

“They would tell you there is nothing wrong with you and that you are just a hysterical woman”.


It is worth reflecting briefly on the history of medicine and the medical profession. The idea of a wandering womb—with strange afflictions supposedly affecting women, particularly those of reproductive age—goes back to the ancient Greeks. We have something here that has been embedded for literally millennia. If we look to more recent history, it was the book on hysteria by Edward Jorden in 1603 that really pinned down in English something that became medical doctrine for centuries. This treatment of female patients has a very long and embedded history.

If we look back at the 1960s and 1970s, up until that point in time the culture of medicine was very much one of paternalism. The doctor, who was most often a male, knew best; the patient was told what they should do and how they should be treated. The doctor knew what was best for them and the patient had very little say or control. We can credit the women’s movement as an important part of the forces driving for change in the medical profession. We have seen change, but medical habitus does not change quickly in its practices and culture. It is clear from those quotes I just read out that there is still a long way to go. There is a strong gender aspect to this, but many male and child patients were affected by it as well.

A patient safety commissioner could be someone to go to: someone who knows the system and has sufficient technical support to understand the issues, and to see where systematic breakdowns are happening and act on them. The Children’s Commissioner is a wonderful example—the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, referred to it—and by chance I was referring to that commissioner approvingly in this very same Room yesterday.

We have already seen action on the recommendation for a patient safety commissioner in Scotland, and I am proud that the England and Wales sister party, the Scottish Greens, was very strong in supporting that. With this amendment, your Lordship’s House has a real chance, as we have been doing with so many Bills lately, to insert an important and key improvement.

I hope that, if not today then sometime very soon, the Government might see the sense of following the Scottish lead and the recommendations of the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. However, if that is not the case, I can certainly offer the Green group’s very strong support for pushing this further—as far as it needs to be pushed—to deliver this vital figure.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, who asked some good questions. Indeed, many noble Lords have asked good questions about the functioning of a patient safety commissioner. All are agreed that we have come very far, very quickly, and the Minister and my noble friend Lady Cumberlege are to be congratulated on having brought this proposal from her excellent report to primary legislation so rapidly. Knowing how difficult it is, I commend the Minister and his team for securing collective agreement to such a significant policy innovation so rapidly, to the point that we can put it into the Bill on Report.

I want to make two points. First, as I know from the past, independence can be instrumental to the functioning of an organisation, but the NHS can, if one is not careful, see independence as something outside the system. It is somewhat discounted because of that. We must always think of the patient safety commissioner in two important respects. First, it should be not only independent but influential. A number of noble Lords have spoken about how that might best be achieved. That influence is terrifically important.

Secondly, patient safety is central across the NHS and is regarded as such. As the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, evidenced, we have come a long way with safety in the NHS—for example, in the reduction in healthcare-acquired infections. I was responsible for introducing never events and a range of other factors. Mainstreaming safety to become a central concern of commissioners and providers across the NHS has been a recurring feature of the work of this Government and their predecessors, and of my successors, Jeremy Hunt in particular.

I stress that that work on safety inside the NHS is clinically led and data-driven. The patient safety commissioner has a remit focused on hearing from, understanding and working with patients. That distinction is tremendously important and must be made clear to all those working across the health and care systems, from the outset. There is something new and distinctive about the patient safety commissioner, and it is not simply another accretion to the many organisations that those who work in the health system feel impede their lives. On the contrary, this is a representative of patients who, by virtue of that, attracts special attention from their point of view and brings a distinctive and unique voice into the NHS systems. I am pleased to have had this opportunity to say those few things and to support the government amendment in the name of the Minister.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. It is very good news that there is to be a patient safety commissioner. I congratulate everyone who has worked so hard to create this amendment, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. It is so good that the Government have listened. Patient safety is vital, especially now when the NHS is under so much stress and demand. Over the years, some tragic incidents could have been avoided if patients had been listened to and there had not been cover-ups.

The noble Baroness feels that the words

“so far as reasonably practicable”

should be removed. She may feel that they would weaken the amendment; is this the case? This is important, because patients need clear information about how they are to communicate with the patient commissioner, so that they trust the system.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow my noble friend Lady Masham of Ilton. I reiterate my support given in Grand Committee for the appointment of a patient safety commissioner, and I thank both the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, for the work they have done together to get to this point.

To reflect on the speed since the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, I remind noble Lords of the report, in the early 1970s, called Sans Everything, about the terrible atrocities and lack of safety in some in-patient mental health services. It took nearly a decade for that to be taken seriously, so we warmly welcome the speed with which we are dealing with this situation now.

I am delighted that Amendment 54, which will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on behalf of the Government, will identify the principles relating to core duties, involvement of patients and amendment to primary legislation, together with regulations for appointment and operation of the office for the commissioner. I too have concerns about paragraph 3(3) of the proposed new Schedule A1, concerning the statement:

“A relevant person must, so far as reasonably practicable, comply with a request by the Commissioner”.


This means that a reluctant organisation—we need to remember that some very small organisations deliver healthcare on behalf of the NHS—or individual is potentially provided with an excuse not to co-operate with the commissioner on a reasonable request. I ask the Minister: could the words

“so far as reasonably practicable”

be removed?

Clarity over roles and responsibilities will be key to maximising patient safety, as will the independence of such a commissioner. It may well be that, as we work forward, we can be clear about the level of independence to ensure that, as they revise the principles of better patient safety, they consider not only patients in hospitals and mainstream community care but patients further afield, particularly in areas provided by the independent and charitable sector.

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A failure to do this would be a lost opportunity. There is strong support for this Bill and a recognition that it must be passed in its current fashion as rapidly as possible. However, there is also a strong recognition that many of the issues are tied up in long-standing regulation created over a period of time, without the clarity and benefit of understanding the opportunities and risks offered by modern medical practice and innovation in healthcare. Not to consolidate would put our country behind rather than at the forefront of the opportunities that are afforded by being leaders in this area.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I support these amendments. It seems totally sensible to consolidate legislation so that it is not fragmented and some medicines do not get missed. Medicines and medical devices are vital to some people. We depend on many of our medicines and devices coming from abroad, so bringing legislation together for human and animal medicines will help prevent mistakes. We are an island and crossing the borders has already caused problems with filling in the forms. With much-needed medicines there should not be a risk of not receiving them.

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, who rightly emphasises the importance of accessible and understandable legislation in this area. There are two issues. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern said, there is the question of the sunset clause and the question of the preparation of consolidated legislation.

On Amendment 2 and a sunset clause, I believe that we should reserve the imposition of sunset clauses for legislation where we anticipate that those powers may not be needed in future. This is not the case with this legislation. With the end of the transition period we require our own domestic legislation for medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices, so these regulations and these powers will be required.

The points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, quite legitimately, about the framework—the rather skeletal nature of the Bill as introduced to this House—must be dealt with in other ways, and in the group led by Amendment 4, we have substantive changes which make it a framework rather than simply a skeleton, and give us greater assurance about how the powers are structured in the Bill. I hope that if she reflects on it the noble Baroness will realise that shutting down these powers three years after Royal Assent would be a very taxing imposition. It would probably mean that in less than a year and a half, Ministers would be thinking about the reintroduction of legislation. We would risk the powers in this Bill being shut down in order for a Bill very like it to be introduced in a couple of years’ time. I see no intrinsic purpose in that, so I cannot support Amendment 2.

I do however want to specifically refer to the other issue of consolidation and Amendments 26, 39 and 63, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. There is a general proposition that people agree that, notwithstanding that additional regulations are going to have to be made in the weeks and months ahead using these powers, they will continue for the time being to be a complex mix of powers. Some will use this legislation, some will be in retained EU law and some will be in existing and other statutes and regulations.

What we want, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern quite rightly emphasised, is legislation in this important area that is understandable and accessible. These are not regulations for the benefit of lawyers; they are regulations for the benefit of practitioners, so they need to be very clear. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, helpfully and kindly referred to the points I made in Committee about the role of the Law Commission. As I understand it, indeed, I think it is well to remember two things about this. First, Law Commission members are the experts in the process of codification and simplification. Consolidation of legislation is valuable, but it is even better for it to be codified and simplified so that the end result is far more accessible and understandable to practitioners.

So I would very much recommend that we proceed by asking the Government to put the areas of human medicines and medical device regulation, and perhaps veterinary medicine as well, into the work programme of the Law Commission. As I understand it, the 14th programme of work for the Law Commission will be the subject of discussion between the Government and the Law Commission up to the spring of 2022. The work programme of course will happen subsequently. So I do not think any rigid timetable should be imposed. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would not insist upon a three-year limit or his amendment for this purpose because I hope that, at the end of this process with the Law Commission, we will end up with something much better that is brought forward as a Law Commission Bill—which can have an expedited process of scrutiny and passage through both Houses. As a former Leader of the House of Commons, and therefore responsible for the Government’s legislative programme, I say that all the evidence tells me that, if a requirement to insert a Bill into the Government’s legislative programme can be avoided, it should be.

We have been there with a Law Commission Bill on the regulation of clinical professions and professions allied to medicine, which is still waiting for legislation, because it included not only codification and simplification but substantive changes to the policy—so I am afraid that it is still waiting. So let us not go down that route; let us do the very sensible thing rightly initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, which is call for consolidation, making sure that it is not about changing policy but about making the legislation work effectively for the benefit of the various practitioners and those who depend on them. And let us work through the Law Commission. I hope that, if the Minister were to tell the House that he and the Government were willing to proceed in that direction, without a timetable in place, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would not press his amendment when the time comes.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, for her support. This is the survivor of a suite of amendments that I moved in Committee. About half an hour ago I tweeted out the Hansard link to that for anyone who is interested, and a link to an article I wrote at that time in the Ecologist. The amendments were all about the environmental impacts of medicines and medical devices, including the impacts of packaging.

Responding for the Government, the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, suggested that the environmental issues of packaging, and the issues around medical devices, would be covered elsewhere, notably in the Environment Bill. She did, however, acknowledge the importance of these issues. Some of those amendments related particularly to anti-microbial resistance, and the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, noted that this

“has been placed on the National Risk Register of Civil Emergencies as a ‘longer term trend’ likely to change the overall risk landscape for the UK over the coming decades.”—[Official Report, 26/10/20; col. GC 62.]

I think that is an acknowledgement by the Government of the importance of these issues around anti-microbial resistance. But we are starting to see much bigger issues: we have heard and seen the Government acknowledge in other contexts the cocktail effects of drugs and chemically active compounds in the natural environment.

I am not convinced by the argument presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, about the other amendments. Since this is Report, I decided to focus on this one single amendment, for which I think the Government have—unintentionally—made their own case very strongly, by ways which I will come to at the end of my comments.

To briefly set out the case for why the Environment Bill and general environmental legislation will not cover medicines, the fact is that human medicines are highly biologically active substances, that are in the human body and pass through it. The medics will tell you that they need to be at still very high concentrations when they pass out of the human body to ensure that they have medical effectiveness. They are also metabolised in the human body in the natural world, in both anaerobic and aerobic environments. It is highly unlikely that normal legislation about waste—normal environmental legislation—will be able to deal with that, let alone its impact on the human microbiomes, and the microbiome all around us.

If we think of bringing this back to the practical: the manufacturer of baked beans might be regulated about the impacts of the tin or the impacts of consumption on human health, but in normal food safety or environmental health impact assessments, the broader impact of that consumption of baked beans is probably not going to be taken into account.

I am aware that your Lordships’ House might find me often citing some fairly technical science, and I am afraid I am going to do it again. Just as one example, I am going to cite a 2018 article from Frontiers in Microbiology. The title of the article is “Antibiotic Effects on Microbial Communities Responsible for Denitrification and N2O Production in Grassland Soils.” Your Lordships’ House might note that I have been spending lots of time at the Oxford Real Farming Conference recently.

To quote from that article, it says that

“the acute effects of tetracycline on soil microbial community composition and production of nitrous oxide … and dinitrogen … as the end-products of denitrification”

are

“an increase in the fungi:bacteria ratio and a significant decrease in the abundance”

of bacteria carrying a certain gene. Those who follow these issues will know that that has significant climate change impacts, but it also has very serious soil impacts.

Before I make my next comments, I should perhaps declare my membership of the APPG on Human Microbiome. The human microbiome that we have on our skin, in our lungs and in our gut also has impacts on the microbiome all around us, and the medicines that we take have an impact on both of those—that is, the microbiome of everything from bees to bats. Perhaps Covid-19 will help us understand the complexity of the systems that we are dealing with.

The fact is that past generations have left us with a poisoned planet. Historically, various diseases were treated were mercury. Many poisons have also been used as medicines, and of course many chemicals were used and are now widespread in the environment and are having enormous impacts. A story came out this morning about the fertility of male porpoises living off the UK being affected by polychlorinated biphenyls—PCBs—which were phased out decades ago but are still having impacts today. We are talking here about systems thinking.

I believe that the Government are, unintentionally, making their own argument for this amendment. I point noble Lords to page 6 of the Bill and Part 2, Chapter 1, covering veterinary medicines. Clause 9(2)(c) refers to

“the protection of the environment.”

Here, we are talking about the authority that makes the regulations on veterinary medicines having to be sure that it promotes the protection of the environment.

On page 1, we find the almost matching subsection under Chapter 1 on human medicines. The first two paragraphs of Clauses 1(3) and 9(3) are the same, then Clause 1(3)(c) goes on to talk about the UK being

“an attractive … place in which to conduct clinical trials or supply human medicines.”

But there is something missing—words about protecting the environment.

Therefore, with this amendment I have chosen simply to take the Government’s own words, as used in the part of the Bill on veterinary medicines, and say that we have to apply the same oversight and approach to human medicines as to veterinary medicines.

I come back, as this debate so often has done, to the brilliant report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, First Do No Harm. I would say that the Government have accepted that principle in putting the clause on environmental impacts in the veterinary medicines section of the Bill. I really cannot see how they can justify not doing the same for human medicines.

I have previously called only one vote in your Lordships’ House—on what one might call the “grand matter of principle”, which was about freedom of movement—but at the moment I am feeling very inclined also to call a vote on this amendment. We are in a situation where our planet is at its limits—right at its edge. We are all on the edge: our life is on the edge. We cannot keep saying about the environment, “Oh, we’ll include that in a nice little silo in the Environment Bill.” We have to look at the impacts of everything that we do. The impact of human medicines on the environment is significant, as is the impact of veterinary medicines.

I will listen very carefully to what other speakers and the Minister have to say, and I shall be very interested in hearing the Minister’s explanation for the veterinary medicines and human medicines sections of the Bill being different. However, at the moment, I am certainly inclined to test the opinion of the House on this amendment. I beg to move.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for tabling this very important amendment. For a long time, I have been interested in the growing resistance to antibiotics. The residue of many of them, used for both humans and animals, pass into the environment by different routes. One route is through sewage, which is then processed and goes back into the land where animals graze, and then enters the food chain. Flooding causes contamination and can cause infections through escaping sewage, and this can give rise to environmental and public health matters that need addressing.

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I hope the Minister is able to tell us in response what appropriate system the Government are prepared to put in place as an alternative to clinical trials, so that UK patients can have the benefits that patients in the Netherlands, Canada, the United States and many other countries have had for years.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, who moved this amendment so movingly. This debate has gone on for many years.

It has been found by parents that medical cannabis can help some children who have multiple seizures due to epilepsy. I need to know: has NICE approved it? If it is waiting for more research, there will have to be more people using medical cannabis so that the information can be collected. If it is helping, doctors who understand the problems need to be the people who prescribe it. It should be carefully monitored. If it gives better quality of life, why should it not be prescribed? I hope the Minister will do his best to see that it is.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am really grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Field, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Walmsley, for sponsoring this amendment and for the powerful speeches they have given.

Last week, I heard Hannah Deacon talk on the “Today” programme about her son Alfie and the devastating consequences of Brexit and the impact of the inability to import Bedrocan from Holland. I know the Government have been active, and I very much hope the Minister will be able to report progress tonight.

That is the immediate issue, but of course there is then the long-standing issue that, when Parliament agreed to the legalisation of medical cannabis under prescription, there was a distinct impression that NHS patients would receive medical cannabis where appropriate. It is very clear that the NHS is not prepared to do that. The small number of prescriptions and the approach of the various bodies that advise the health service on commissioning make it abundantly clear that, unless Ministers intervene, patients will simply not be able to get these products in a legal way.

I say to Ministers that, with the campaigns, it is obvious there will be increasing noise, increasing concern. They really will have to step in and find a way of getting access to these products for patients. It is inevitable that it will happen, and it is better than they do this now rather than wait for another three, four or five years. I remind them that, when the legislation went through, the Home Secretary at the time said:

“We have now delivered on our promises … we will work with the NHS to help support specialists in making the right prescribing decisions.”


That simply has not happened.

I suggest four approaches: first, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Medical Cannabis under Prescription believes that the only way to help families at the moment, and to make sure the policy does not stall completely, is to set up a small fund called something like the medical cannabis access fund, which can be used to help those families, until the blockage on NHS prescription eases.

Secondly, we have to come to the issue of research. I know the Minister is frustrated—he repeated this today—because he thinks the companies producing these products should come forward and undertake clinical trials and tests. I am not an expert, but I have listened very carefully to noble Lords and to advice that I have received, which suggests that randomised control trials are very difficult in this area. In that case, surely the Government should revisit the NHS England report, Barriers to Accessing Cannabis-based Products for Medicinal Use on NHS Prescriptions. The report looked at the issue of research, and said that there should be randomised controlled trials but, alongside this:

“NHS England and NHS Improvement and NIHR in conjunction with the specialist network will work together to determine an appropriate alternative study design that will enable evidence generation for those patients who cannot be enrolled into a standard RCT.”


I gather that this has not happened. The Minister really should inquire into this. It would basically be an observational study; it would allow medical cannabis to be prescribed for large numbers of people and for proper research to be undertaken. I suggest to him that it would be a way forward, so that the current frustration of so many patients is responded to in a sympathetic but also practical way.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Masham of Ilton Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the House because this is the first time I have spoken on this Bill, so I will not detain the House long. However, I support the aims of the amendment. This is something I have felt strongly about for some years.

Tackling anti-vax disinformation can be life-saving, and continuing to promote anti-vax messaging can be so damaging to public health as well as individual health. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, rightly said in her excellent introduction—I am grateful to her for tabling the amendment—the online anti-vax messaging problem is growing. It is not just from a tiny minority in any one country; there could be systemic efforts to damage public health in our country and others. Given that those minority views can be spread, potentially to the severe detriment of the public and those who perhaps tend to support those views, believe them or be convinced by them, I should be very grateful if my noble friend would explain to the House the Government’s position. What do they believe they can do to combat the anti-vax messaging, not least as we are in the middle of this dreadful pandemic, for which the way out seems to me and many others to be to vaccinate as much of the population as we can, as soon as we can, to enhance their protection? Therefore, this is a very important and live issue, given the dreadful consequences that the pandemic is having not only on health through the virus itself, but on other aspects of public health and the country’s wider ability to support our beloved NHS.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am speaking on the telephone, as something went wrong with my iPad.

I support Amendment 16, which is tackles anti-vaccination disinformation. For some years, this has created a problem. For example, there has been an epidemic of measles in many countries because many people, including the growing number of vegans, mistrust vaccines. Clear messages should go out about the benefits of vaccines and how they work. Some vaccines are very complicated and difficult to develop, but they are desperately needed for diseases such as HIV, TB and malaria.

Regarding these important coronavirus vaccines, I hope that the Government will be very careful that disinformation is not going out to the public about the Pfizer vaccine. Many health workers and elderly vulnerable people have had one dose, and the second dose should be given in three weeks’ time. People have signed up to that, as there are written instructions to do so, but the Government are trying to delay the second dose by up to three months, which is not recommended by Pfizer-BioNTech or the regulator.

There is a risk that with only one dose, people may become carriers and the virus may become resistant to the vaccine. The Doctors’ Association is not happy about the Government’s idea of a three-month delay. More careful monitoring and research is needed, but these mixed messages are extremely unhelpful. I hope that the Government will realise that people need to trust the information they receive.

[Baroness Cumberlege (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on her comprehensive introduction, expressing the urgency of the situation, which was also stressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, in another interesting contribution for which I thank her. This is a difficult and hugely important issue, and it needs serious consideration on two counts. We have to look beyond the present situation with anti-vaccine campaigners and decide very carefully what is information and how we should combat damaging information being spread. Secondly, how do we reserve the right of the individual to use social media to express their personal views?

I spent six years on the Press Council, dealing with complaints. It was taxing, but today the print media is regulated to a greater extent. Even then, accountability for what should be published and what should not lay with not only the journalist who had written the article but with the editor and, in some newspapers, the owner.

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[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who asked some relevant and useful questions about this while welcoming the new clause and the advisory committee on medical devices as a statutory body. I join him in that and think it is a very welcome move on the Government’s part. The analogy with the Commission on Human Medicines is helpful. As regards translating the Devices Expert Advisory Committee into a statutory role, in effect, in the process, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested, there is considerable scope to think about how the Government’s new and expanded roles in the regulation of medical devices can be supported by the advisory committee.

I have a number of points. The first reflects the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which is that the MHRA has an enviable reputation as a regulatory authority for the approval of medical devices. If I recall correctly, among the European regulatory bodies something like 40% of the most important or significant medical devices were authorised by the MHRA. Other regulatory authorities in other countries will seek to supplant that. However, our reputation should enable us to establish an international position, and I hope that the advisory committee will not be confined to expertise from within the United Kingdom. There is a lot to be said for positioning the MHRA as a body providing internationally recognised authorisations for medical devices, and its scientific evaluation in that respect should be something that others look to. I therefore hope that that will assist if we have some international participation in the advisory committee structure.

Secondly, I recall, not least in the context of the vexed experience of the PIP breast implant issues back in 2010-11, that the role of notified bodies is very important. Hitherto they have, in essence, been regulated by the European Commission, not by the UK Government, but they fall to be UK-regulated in future. There are not many of them, but there is considerable benefit in there being an advisory committee sub-committee which is focused on the work of the notified bodies. That was the weak link that probably led to the PIP breast implant problems. The regulation is all very well but we have to have bodies that we are confident are able to deliver on these things. The few notified bodies we have in this country are highly respected but we want to make sure that that is maintained even as further notified bodies are authorised.

Thirdly, I recognise that the Devices Expert Advisory Committee has leading clinicians from Scotland and Wales in its membership. However, this must be a UK advisory function, as the MHRA is. I wonder whether it would be appropriate for there to be in addition a Northern Ireland representative on the committee and for there to be perhaps some specific mechanisms to ensure that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented in the regulations that establish the advisory committee.

I have one further point, which is that I hope that the various categories of medical devices are very carefully examined and the relevant expertise is available in relation to those. So, for example, on digital devices it is important that we have not only the clinical expertise to deal with the safety of medical devices we have at the moment but the technical expertise in the advisory committee to understand how digital devices will work in the future. That must also be the case in the special interests section related to in vitro diagnostic devices. I hope that that also will have its own special advisory committee function.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I support Amendments 51 to 53 because it is important that the new clause will read “must” instead of “may”, so that the advice on medical devices will be clear and should be followed. “May” means it can be optional and makes the regulations weaker, and people might miss important aspects of care. There is no doubt that clear, correct information is the way to better patient safety. In many ways, communication within the National Health Service should be improved.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and earlier speakers in welcoming this group of amendments. I support government Amendments 50, 64 and 96 and welcome the placing of the advisory committee on a statutory footing, and particularly that the affirmative procedure will be used.

My question goes to the nub of Amendment 50—in which regard, if this is correct, Amendments 51 and others in this group will not be needed. Is it for the Secretary of State to decide what goes in the regulations on which presumably Parliament will be consulted under the affirmative procedure?

I can quite understand that the use of “may” appears to be discretionary, leaving open what should be included. Having got this far, it would be helpful to understand the thinking behind the use of “may” in Amendment 50, which indicates that this may be discretionary, whereas clearly it appears to be the will of the House that this is mandatory.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and speak on this group of amendments. I can see that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, speaks with passion and some considerable knowledge and experience of NICE. But I am concerned and would just like to understand, as we have established that patient safety absolutely has to be paramount, that patient safety could not be compromised through either of the two amendments—Amendments 46 and 66—in this group.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, set out in the earlier amendment in Committee a two-year licensing procedure and, now that we have obtained an assurance that the approval processes are to be revised, I would imagine that the same procedure as set out under Amendment 66 should be considered as part of that review and revision of the processes. I would also like to further understand how a role for NICE as set out in Amendment 66 actually fits in with the Bill before us today and, in particular, the role as set out, and just agreed, of what the advisory committee should be.

My concern is absolutely that patient safety has to be paramount—first, foremost and bottom line. In my view, what is sought to be set out in these two amendments in this little group should be best done as part of an overall review of the processes to which the Government, as I understand, are already committed.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff for alerting me to the fact that government Amendment 45 pre-empted our Amendment 46. They were grouped on different days, but I am pleased that others were thinking on the same wavelength.

I am very happy to support Amendment 66 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath. The availability of medicines and medical devices is top of my priority list. In fact, antibiotics have saved my life on several occasions. It is important that NICE adheres to health equality: everyone who needs medicines or medical devices should be treated equally and there should be no delay. Unfortunately, with this devious coronavirus, this has not happened, but we hope for better days.

Having experienced a member of my family dying, I know that sometimes it seems worth trying anything that might help and that is in the research process. There are many really rare diseases which need orphan drugs; they can be a lifeline to the individual. I hope that NICE will consider them without delay and realise their importance and value to these small patient groups. It is so frustrating when patients in Scotland and other European countries can get medicines and medical devices, when those in England cannot; patients here have to wait—unless the public come to their rescue by crowd funding.

Many users of devices also need instruction on their use, and staff and patients need training. Personal medicine is so important and patient safety is absolutely paramount.

[Lord Lansley (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath, for his amendment and for the way he introduced it. It very helpfully allows us, at this very important moment, to take stock of how we secure the availability of medicines—although the legislation does not relate to NICE, and I am sure it will not surprise the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I do not think it is appropriate for us to legislate to tell NICE how to do its work, given its independent statutory constitution. None the less, the Bill is about the availability of medicines, and it is really important for us to identify how the NICE processes can assist in ensuring that we get medicines to those who need them.

I shall say a few words about the NICE processes. First, let me address the objective, from my point of view. When I was Secretary of State, I advocated a process called “value-based pricing”, which was to try to understand that not only were there quantitative factors measured in quality-adjusted life years—QALYs —which, if one were able to secure them, gave one a quantitative basis for understanding the value of a new medicine, but that in addition there were other qualitative aspects, which I described as the societal benefits and the innovation benefits. I still think that this is the right approach.

In the international context, many countries are trying to escape the potential downward spiral of reference pricing, where everybody is trying to pay less than the average. The net result, if we carry on down that path and if the American Administration pursue that path, will be that we end up with inadequate support for the industry for the development of new and innovative medicines.

What we need to do is to value innovation and support the industry for the value it delivers. However, we do not measure it precisely in those terms. When we look at our current structure in this country, we need to understand that there is an opportunity created by what is known as VPAS—the voluntary pricing and access scheme. If it is genuinely the case, and we have argued that it should be, that the industry has accepted a constraint on the overall growth of the medicines budget in the NHS, and if it is clear that, if that growth is exceeded, there will be a rebate and that rebate does indeed return to benefit patients, through the NHS or the innovative medicines fund, so promoting access to new medicines, then we will arrive at the point where both NICE and NHS England should be working together to try to secure the best value from that drugs budget. I think they should be working together to ensure that, where there is a mandate for a new medicine, it is one which is supported by, not imposed upon, NHS England. That is increasingly where we should be aiming to arrive: at a combined thought.

What goes into value-based pricing matters enormously as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to some of the important aspects. First, it is about societal values. For example, if we can deliver a health gain among the parts of our population where health outcomes are poorest, then we should ascribe additional value to that health gain. A modifier for health inequalities is consistent, for example, with the statutory responsibilities of the NHS to seek to address and reduce health inequalities.

Unmet medical need makes a difference. Incremental effectiveness of medicines is important, but to have a medicine available for those who thought that there was no opportunity for treatment available to them from the NHS can make an enormous difference, and I think we should ascribe additional value to that. Medicines which deliver innovative benefits—for example, which have a whole new mode of action—can lead to subsequent treatments, and we should have a method of qualitatively understanding where those innovations, even if they may not have dramatic incremental benefits, none the less give us long-term potential. We should reflect that in the price that we are prepared to pay.

Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, we should not apply a discount rate to quality-adjusted life years that is directly comparable with the discount rates that are applied to revenues over time. I think people's time preference for quality-adjusted life years is not so dramatically higher for gain now as opposed to gain in the future; there is a much greater degree of equivalence between health gain now and health gain that people will derive in future. That would certainly assist in promoting medicines that slow the progression of disease and help us to manage longer-term morbidity in our older population, which would be immensely helpful.

There is a whole range of such matters and there are many more one could talk about, but it is really important to distinguish between NICE’s job in undertaking a health technology assessment, which I think should be moved from the purely quantitative to the qualitative. It should include, for example, relying not only on randomised control trial data but understanding observational data and the data we receive from the use of the innovative medicines fund to see how well medicines work and what benefits and outcomes they can deliver—sometimes in relatively small populations for rare diseases—understanding that in practice and incorporating it in its assessment.

We need to support NICE in delivering what is regarded internationally, I hope, as a gold standard of health technology assessment. We need to understand that that is separate and distinct from the business of what price the NHS should pay and on what basis the industry and we, as payers for new medicines, should agree, understanding that our objective must always be to ensure that safe, effective and high-quality medicines are available to the NHS and patients.