Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 29th August 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I remember, 10 years ago, like many Members, sitting on the Government Benches listening to the whole of the Iraq debate and agonising about how I should vote. I remember my heart telling me that I should support my leader—I particularly wanted to support my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), my good friend—and my head telling me throughout that debate, “No, there’s something wrong here,” and I voted no. I voted no, understanding that many members of my own party in Vauxhall probably supported the war, although most did not. Many people in my constituency supported the war, although most did not. There was an even split at that time.

On this occasion, 10 years on, I am very clear and I am not agonising. I oppose military action in this case. Whatever the Attorney-General says and despite all the legal paraphernalia that we have been bombarded with, for the general public this is almost like agonising on the head of a pin. Legal arguments will not wash with the public or with me when it comes to what is right and what is wrong. It would be wrong and, importantly, counter-productive to take military action against Syria. I am not a pacifist. I was one of the first people, together with a number of my colleagues but long before my Front-Bench team did so, to argue strongly for intervention in Bosnia. I also supported the Falklands war, so I am not a pacifist.

The question is how bombing, no matter how strategic, how precise and how short, will make things if not better for the Syrian people, at least not worse. I believe that it will not do so and I have yet to be persuaded by anyone who has spoken in this debate that it would make things better for the Syrian people. I found the speech by the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) very commanding indeed. I do not support Assad or the regime. As many Members have said, it has been an appalling regime for many years. It is worth remembering that we provided many of the regime’s arms. I wonder who provided the components that make up the chemical weapons. I would not be a bit surprised if some came from this country and other countries in the west—[Interruption]—and of course from Russia, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) says.

It has not been proven absolutely that the chemical weapons were used by Assad. It probably was Assad—

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kate Hoey]

No.

We have had information before that poison gas had been used and Carla Del Ponte, who was the UN commissioner in Syria, pointed out that it was the rebels who had used it. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell me when he winds up the debate, if, despite what everyone thinks, the weapons inspectors find that it was the rebels or some rogue general who used the chemical weapons last week, the Prime Minister will be saying the things that he did about the use of chemical weapons? The doctrine of prevention, which I had hoped—

[Mr Newmark]

I have huge respect for the hon. Lady. To help her in her thinking, let me point out that Damascus is defended by the president’s brother, Maher. He is responsible for the fourth division and he is ultimately responsible for the heinous chemical attack that took place. Given the industrial scale with which those chemicals hit three, four or five different areas, it would be impossible for the rebels to do it to themselves, besides the fact that it would be incredibly counter-intuitive.

[Kate Hoey]

I do not think that has been proved or that we have any proof that bombing will make things any better or get rid of the chemical weapons, if they are there. We need to remember that once we cross that line of military action, as other Members have said, even if it is a short strike and very few civilians are killed, which is highly unlikely, the result will be that when anyone is killed in future years in Syria, whoever has killed them or whatever the background, the west will be blamed. The United Kingdom will be blamed, as has happened throughout the middle east, and we will see the repercussions on our streets in the form of increased extremism.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend mentioned that some of her constituents in the past were for and some against, but that in this case they were almost unanimous in opposing military intervention. She may be aware that I am one of her constituents. If I came to her surgery and said, “I am disgusted and horrified by pictures of children being poisoned by chemicals and I want something done about it,” and if she says that military intervention is not the answer, what would she suggest? What is the alternative?

[Kate Hoey]

I have many suggestions and many Members have made suggestions. I do not think we have worked through the United Nations mechanism. It may not be a brilliant organisation and we may all have criticisms of it, but there is a lot more that could be done. We should be putting much more diplomatic pressure on Russia. We should call in the Russian ambassador and say, “We are going to expel you from this country if you do not change Russia’s attitude.” There are a number of things that we could do. Military action is the very last option. I do not believe that we should go down that line.

Any military action will, as I said, lead to a completely different attitude among many of our Muslim communities in this country. It will be the catalyst for the build-up of all sorts of extremism. I know that it is an extraordinarily difficult decision for Governments in these situations and for the Opposition, but in such cases we must always reflect on what is in our national interest. I do not believe that our national interest will be served by military intervention in Syria or that that is the way forward for this Parliament. We may return to the issue in a few days, just because America is calling the shots. What will the Prime Minister say if, over the weekend, America decides to go it alone? How much influence will we have had? It is quite wrong that we are being pushed by America. We should take our time, reflect and make it very clear that we are not going to rush into something that will ultimately not be in our national interest.

Afghanistan and EU Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Let me first, through my hon. Friend, pay tribute to the people of Royal Wootton Bassett, and also to people in Carterton and Brize Norton in my own constituency, who I think have shown the best side of Britain in welcoming back, sombrely and properly, those who have fallen in combat operations in Afghanistan.

No final decision has been made about Camp Bastion, but it is likely that it could be used as one of the bases led by the Americans for the purpose of their continued presence in Afghanistan. That would obviously be quite helpful in terms of the timetable governing the return of our resources. However, as those who visit Camp Bastion will see, a great deal of work is being done to return kit to the UK now.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Did the Prime Minister have any opportunity in the margins to discuss, even informally, the deteriorating situation in Zimbabwe, especially in the light of the EU’s removal of some of its restrictive sanctions? Will he continue to urge South Africa, and the Southern African Development Community generally, to send more international monitors to the country as soon as possible? If that is not done, we shall see another stolen election.

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady speaks about this issue with great expertise. I did not discuss Zimbabwe at the European Council, but we did hold a National Security Council meeting relatively recently, at which our high commissioner in Zimbabwe was present. We have been working out how best to maximise the leverage and influence that we have in order to secure a proper election and a proper democratic transition, and that is why we have taken the steps in the European Union to which she referred. However, we keep all these matters under review to ensure that we do all that we can to assist the transition that Zimbabwe so badly needs.

G8

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It was a huge issue in Somalia, where we have seen real progress in recent years. What matters is funding humanitarian relief through the best mechanisms we have. At the moment, that means working a lot with non-governmental organisations and the UN to ensure that they deliver what they can. He is absolutely right, however, about ensuring that it gets to parts of the country held by the Syrian opposition.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Hosting the G8 in Enniskillen was a practical way of showing that Northern Ireland was an integral part of the UK, and I want to add my congratulations to the Prime Minister on taking it there. Is he aware of the concern, however, that the Libyan Prime Minister was in Enniskillen, just a few miles from the site of a terrible atrocity involving semtex from Libya, but was not able to meet those concerned—they got very late notice—and then went and met someone who used to be in the IRA?

[The Prime Minister]

First, the hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that Libyan semtex played an appalling role in the violence and destruction in Northern Ireland. For all we know, Libyan semtex may still be in the hands of dissident republicans, so this is a serious and live issue. Let me commend the Libyan Prime Minister for wanting to settle all these issues with the United Kingdom. He knows how important it is to communities in Northern Ireland and elsewhere to do so. My sense is that he wants to deal with these issues, not least because he knows that Britain played such a key role in getting rid of Gaddafi. Let us not forget that he was the person who provided the semtex in the first place.

Debate on the Address

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 8th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Kennedy]

I feel the spectre of Roy Jenkins with his hand on my shoulder as we speak. I say to the hon. Gentleman that in perhaps a more superficial, short-term, opportunistic political way, of which he is such an emblematic representative, one might well rejoice in the difficulties and internecine warfare that is reigniting within the ranks of British Conservatism on the European issue, but the truth is that what I was saying about Scotland applies equally to the United Kingdom’s relationship with the rest of Europe: it is extremely damaging for British interests that the British Conservative party is not anchored more in the mainstream. We have been seeing that since its crazy decision to take itself off into a rather loopy set-up within the European Parliament. That may provide some of us with a good opportunity to poke fun at the Conservatives, but it also means that the British voice and presence has been lost on more significant Committees and in more significant positions within the workings of the European Parliament, as my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister knows far better than I do from his direct experience during his days as an MEP. I therefore think a slightly more, perhaps not high-minded, but at least practical analysis of the current difficulties in that regard is pertinent, because I really do think that it is damaging our long-term national interests.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member and has been involved in the European issue for many years. He has been a Member of this House going back to the time of Maastricht, as many of us have. Does he now regret that he pushed so hard for us to join the euro, and is he pleased that his party was wrong on that?

[Mr Kennedy]

I have said before that I was wrong about that, although I would have put the issue of the single currency to a referendum. I criticised Tony Blair because he missed an opportunity early in his premiership, but as for decisions later on, I think that history has proved him more correct than those of us who were urging a different course of action—although the ultimate back-stop would have been the public through a referendum.

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[Keith Vaz]

We could have our picture taken with the band.

Let us move on to the serious issues of the Gracious Speech. It is right that, as well as commenting on the proposals that were in the speech, we should refer to those that were not. I join the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) in commending the work of our troops abroad, especially in Afghanistan. I was disappointed, however, that the Prime Minister did not make a definitive statement about the position of Afghan interpreters. Many of them have served with our troops loyally and with dedication, but as yet they do not know whether they will be given sanctuary in this country. They will face enormous difficulties if they remain in Afghanistan.

I was also disappointed not to hear more about the summit on Somalia that the Prime Minister chaired yesterday. Bearing in mind that Somalia and Yemen are both countries of interest for the United Kingdom, the support given to Somalia by the Prime Minister and others at yesterday’s summit was similar to that given to Yemen four years ago. Sadly, half the money pledged to the Yemeni Government has still not materialised, even though we all say that we support that country. I hope that when we debate other aspects of the Gracious Speech—perhaps in the foreign affairs debate—we will have a chance to explore those points.

I want to concentrate on three aspects, the first being the immigration proposals. I understand that there is no Bill as yet and that immigration policy will be consulted on for several months. It will be some time, therefore, before we know where the Government stand on a number of the issues they have raised.

I welcome decisions taken in the past few weeks, such as that to abolish the UK Border Agency, which the Home Secretary described as “closed, secretive and defensive”, and the new leadership she has put in place at the immigration and nationality directorate, starting with the permanent secretary, Mark Sedwill, and the new head of immigration and visas, Sarah Rapson, whom I met a couple of weeks ago in Croydon. Now that the UKBA has been abolished and returned to the mother ship of the Home Office, there is a big opportunity at last to get an organisation that is fit for purpose, so that Members who write to it about immigration cases actually receive replies from Ministers or officials, and not the standard letter saying, “This case is part of a backlog,” which, of course, currently stands at 325,000—about the size of the population of Iceland.

It would be great if the administrative changes result in real change to immigration administration before the new Bill is introduced. As the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, there is a tendency to legislate in the hope that it will solve the problem, but if we do not have the right people implementing the policies, that is never the correct thing to do.

I hope that the immigration legislation will deal with illegal migration. In particular, I hope that the allegations database will be put on a statutory footing. After all, the Prime Minister said on 10 October 2011:

“I want everyone in the country to help…by reporting suspected illegal immigrants”.

People took him at his word. The latest figures show that between July and September of last year, 28,243 people made allegations of illegal migration to this country. However, there have been only 561 arrests because of those 28,243 allegations and the Home Office does not have the figures on how many people have been removed. It is all very well asking people to report illegal migrants and having the political will to remove them, but if people are not told what is happening to those whom they have made allegations about, the system will not work. I therefore hope that the Bill will include something about the need to tackle illegal migration.

Let us move on to Romanian and Bulgarian migration. I am glad that the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the former Minister for Immigration, is here because he gave a speech on 21 October 2008 in which he said that one of the greatest failures of the last Government was the failure to predict the consequences of enlargement in 2004. That is exactly the problem. The failure to predict is the real issue with Romanian and Bulgarian migration.

Frankly, since we have signed the treaties, it is not possible to do anything about the number of Romanian and Bulgarian people who will come here. What the Government can do is to ensure that we have sufficient research and analysis to know approximately what the number will be. That is possible to predict, even though Ministers have said before the Home Affairs Committee that they do not regard the estimates thus far as being accurate. Migration Watch has estimated that 70,000 people will come every year for the next few years. The Romanian and Bulgarian ambassadors have put the figure at between 10,000 and 25,000. Estimates will continue to be made unless there is proper research and analysis of what will happen. I urge the Government to take action and commission that research. If we know approximately what the numbers will be, the changes that need to be made to domestic policy can be made rather quicker.

[Kate Hoey]

My right hon. Friend is giving his usual professional view of this matter and I am glad that he takes such a huge interest in it. Does he agree that it does not matter what the numbers are? Whether it is 500 or 50,000 people who come, the crucial issue is whether they should automatically get access without making any contribution whatsoever to our country. Does he agree that that is what needs to be addressed?

[Keith Vaz]

I agree with my hon. Friend. That comment was made to me and the shadow Minister for Immigration when he came to my constituency recently by the settled British Asian community and others who feel that people should make a contribution. However, the figures show that of the 500,000 Poles who came to this country after 2004, only 7,000 claimed benefits. The other almost 500,000 made a huge contribution to our country. However, she is right that nobody should assume that on arrival they can automatically claim for benefits to which they have not contributed. If we stick to those principles and put aside the arms race that seems to be developing on immigration, we will do much better.

I think that the only way to settle this issue is to have a referendum on whether we should stay in or come out of the European Union. I have said that many times before, and I know I am in a minority on the Opposition Benches. I did not favour that when I was Minister for Europe, but it is important that the British people have the say over whether we should stay in or come out. I actually think that it should happen before the general election. I do not see why we should wait until after the negotiations have occurred. Frankly, I am not as optimistic as the Prime Minister that he will get many concessions from the 26 other countries of the European Union, and I think he will be bitterly disappointed. Why pretend to the British electorate? They understand the issues, and it is quite right that we should put our views to them now. That should be part of a wide public education campaign that would allow people to understand the issues involved and not just rely on a few tabloid newspapers.

I am glad that there is a policing Bill in the Queen’s Speech, because we have some unfinished business as far as policing is concerned. I support the Government’s ambitious programme for a new policing landscape, but the problem is that the jigsaw is not complete. Many bits are still missing, and we are running out of time.

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[Mr Mitchell]

I agree strongly with my hon. Friend. He has direct experience of this issue, and we need to tackle the culture of impunity that grows up in such situations. It is important to use every possible mechanism —he eloquently described one such mechanism—and I hope that he will ensure that Foreign Office Ministers can gather from his experience the extent of what can be done to tackle that culture.

[Kate Hoey]

Does he also agree, however, that it is worrying that journalists and photographers are being deliberately targeted because they can bring back the news and the photographs that will make a difference? Does he welcome the setting up of A Day without News, which is being supported by human rights organisations across the world, to support journalists and photographers in the valuable work that they do in exposing these terrible crimes?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Lady is right to flag up the importance of that work, supported as she says by many of the organisations that stand up for human rights in difficult situations around the world.

I have mentioned US leadership. On Israel and Palestine, which continues to pollute the well of international opinion and good will, such leadership is essential. No time is easier for an American president to exercise that leadership on Israel and Palestine than the start of a second term. I profoundly hope that with the support of its allies we will see the US exercising that influence to try to do something about the deeply unjust situation in the middle east. Like the Syrian situation, although much more longstanding, it continues to pollute good will and international opinion.

The right hon. Member for Leicester East mentioned Somalia, which was also mentioned indirectly in the Queen’s Speech as part of the Government’s approach to securing stability and addressing insecurity. Somalia is important for Britain—we have a huge, successful and diverse Somali population throughout the UK—but it is one of the most ungoverned spaces in the world. Until recently, there were more British passport holders training as terrorists in Somalia than in any other country. Britain was heavily engaged in trying to save lives through humanitarian relief in the dreadful famine that struck the Horn of Africa over a year ago, imperilling the lives of hundreds of thousands of children in particular. Britain gave great leadership on that occasion and was able to bring international resources to bear to tackle that situation.

It was following that crisis that the Prime Minister made the brave decision that last year we would have in London a conference that would bring together all the different Somalian parties, the regional powers and the leading nations in the UN to see whether we could do something about a country that has been in chaos for the last 20 years and where nine separate initiatives have failed to achieve anything to bring about change or improvement. It looks as though considerable progress is now being made in dealing with that intractable problem, and the conference yesterday confirmed that. I mention that because it is right to acknowledge that British efforts and support seem to be leading to fundamental change in that country. That is hugely important to Britain, as well as to those who live in Somalia, whose lives have been so blighted in recent years.

Finally, I want to give strong praise and support to the Government’s G8 initiative to combat violence against women. I know that this is a particular interest and concern of the Foreign Secretary. It is great news that he has said that it will be put at the heart of the G8 agenda. The lives of millions and millions of women and girls are destroyed by insecurity and instability. Putting high on the G8’s agenda the importance of tackling violence against women will lead to the chance to transform the lives of some of the poorest people in the world, who always suffer first and foremost from instability and deep poverty.

I wish the Government well on their programme for the G8 and every success with the Queen’s Speech, which is—as I say—well judged and has the capacity to make a huge difference to the lives of our fellow citizens and our constituents during a very difficult economic time for our country.

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[Mr Davis]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. He is a better historian than I am, and he could probably refer back to the United States of America in about 1900 or just before, when politicians used the same popular view of big business to create a model of capitalism in the United States that for the next century beat the world. We could do the same, and we should do the same, but I am afraid that at the moment I see no enthusiasm for that. I will certainly pursue that in the next year, however.

Finally, on home affairs, immigration has come to the fore, particularly because of the UK Independence party’s activities in the past few weeks. I dealt with the issue for a long time when I was shadow Home Secretary. The difficulty is to come up with a set of measures that is both firm and will deal with the issue without being uncivilised—without being barbarous, or perceived as barbarous, in approach. That applies to both the immigration problems the Government are attempting to solve in the Queen’s Speech: the ability to deport immigrants who come here and become criminals or terrorists—such as Abu Qatada—and mass migration.

On the issue of criminals, I am the last person to give way to anybody on human rights in this House of Commons. I suspect most people would accept that, yet I take the view that the misuse of human rights legislation by the likes of Abu Qatada brings the whole question of rights under the law into disrepute.

It is important to resolve this issue in a way that is both fair and effective. The European Court of Human Rights and the British courts are acting against their own long-term interests by being pig-headed in their approach. Qatada serves as a good example. If Qatada faced torture or death abroad, I would lie down in the street in front of the black Maria taking him away, but the truth is that we are talking here about making judgments about other countries’ justice systems, and we simply cannot do that. If we do that, we will start to challenge the whole question of whether we should send someone back to America. Let us consider the treatment of Christopher Tappin. He was extradited under the extradition rules. That was not justice; it was a parody of justice. Then there is the treatment of some of the people who have been dealt with in Greece, let alone Romania and Bulgaria, which, frankly, do not have working justice systems.

We therefore have to think very hard about where we will draw the line, and I draw the line on the treatment of the individual we are sending, not on the justice system of the country we are sending them to. I do so within reason, of course; if there were a dictatorial fiat, that would be another matter, but we are not talking about that here, because this argument is about what sort of evidence might be used.

We have had lots of talk from the Government, including the Home Secretary, and lots of posturing, but the issue could have been dealt with already. I say that because about two months ago my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) tabled an amendment to primary legislation to say, “We will take into account articles 2 and 3, but not article 8 and the others, when making these decisions.” Why would this work? It would work because the Human Rights Act, of which I am no great fan, can be trumped, not by regulation or ministerial decision but by primary legislation passed by this House. We could have fixed this problem, but the Government talked the measure out—it was the day of the Leveson debate—and did not attempt to create time for it. They should have passed it. I do not know what we will get now, but it will be different. Importantly, the legislation must great clarity, because the courts will interpret any vagueness to the advantage of the person who might be deported. That is inevitable; it is what has happened over the past few years. We can fix this problem, but we need to face up to the need for clarity and for a decision on what we are really saying about the European convention on human rights.

The other element of the immigration debate is mass migration. I agree with the Government that we must limit the ability of people who have made no contribution, perhaps having come here temporarily, to claim welfare benefits and social housing in the UK. I am not at all sure, however, that I agree with the Government’s idea of withholding health care from people coming to this country, and I return to my point about acting firmly without being uncivilised—without being barbarous. I find it difficult to imagine doctors in an accident and emergency department in a London hospital finding someone with a foreign accent on a trolley in front of them and asking, “Where are you from? If you are Hungarian, you can be treated; if you are Bulgarian, you can’t.” I do not see how that is going to work. Most of us get reciprocal health care if we go to European countries on holiday, to retire or to live, so I do not see how we are going to amend our provision. I am not sure, in my heart of hearts, that I want to say to someone who has been run over in the street, “You can’t have health care, because you’re a foreigner.”

[Kate Hoey]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Davis]

I will give way to the hon. Lady first.

[Kate Hoey]

I understand what the right hon. Gentleman says about people falling over in the street, but people come from Heathrow airport to the A and E department at my local hospital, St Thomas’s, with something that they knew perfectly well they had before they came. It is not as simple as saying, “We must look after the sick”; clearly there are limits. This is a form of health service tourism.

[Mr Davis]

I shall come back to the hon. Lady’s point, after giving way to the hon. Gentleman.

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[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). We share many platforms as we have neighbouring constituencies and neighbouring boroughs. I agree with him very much about Bangladesh. We too have a Bangladeshi community in our area working in Waterloo and across the borough to his constituency. We send them our best wishes after the terrible things that have happened in Bangladesh and are pleased that so many people in the local community are giving them support at this difficult time. There are issues on which the right hon. Gentleman and I disagree strongly—rarely local ones, but we differ in our views of the European Union. I am not a little Englander; I just do not believe that we should be little Europeans.

It is great to have this opportunity to speak about almost anything. Practically all the measures listed in the Gracious Speech have been covered in the debate. Those of us who have been Members for a very long time almost take for granted the wonderful ceremonial of the opening of Parliament. I have tried over the years to see it from different angles. As a country we should be so proud that we can produce such a wonderful spectacle, which brings people to this country and is a symbol of democracy. I am so pleased that we are continuing that tradition in all its glory.

A number of Members have mentioned Bills that are not in the Queen’s Speech. It was pointed out earlier that the communications data Bill has been left out. I campaigned strongly on that issue, which I believe was a civil liberties issue, like identity cards, and the proposals would have meant that all e-mails were retained and investigated. It would have been a snoopers’ charter and there is no reason why the presumption should be to intrude on innocent normal people who are going about their everyday business. I am delighted that that has been dropped, and I pay tribute to Liberty, which has done such a wonderful job in ensuring that the Bill has been dropped. I hope we never see it again in the next two Sessions.

In the Gracious Speech Her Majesty said:

“My Government will continue with legislation to update energy infrastructure and to improve the water industry.”

One aspect of the water industry that I had hoped would be in the Gracious Speech is the granting of statutory responsibility for flooding to the fire service. Flooding has been a major issue. I am lucky that that is not a particular problem in my constituency, but we must give the fire service that statutory responsibility, as happens in other parts of the United Kingdom. I had hoped that that might have been included in the Bill, and perhaps we can still get it in.

Clearly the immigration proposals will be controversial and will need detailed scrutiny. Until we see the details, I do not think that we can say a great deal, other than to agree that—this is my personal view—no one should come to this country simply to abuse its rules and regulations, and I mentioned earlier the issue of health tourism. I am concerned about one proposal in particular. I am not sure that the Government should be handing over their responsibility for dealing with immigration control to landlords. I really do not think that landlords letting out homes should have to bear the responsibility for deciding whether someone is an illegal immigrant.

I am delighted that we have got rid of the UK Border Agency. As the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee said, those of us who deal with thousands of immigration cases know that that organisation was just waiting to be abolished. What we put in its place must be robust and more efficient. We cannot continue to have people going around the system—and it really is a system—for years and years. That is simply not how to run any kind of civilized immigration system. I hope that the changes will make a difference.

I look forward to the whole debate on immigration. One thing I think all Members across the Chamber can agree on is that we can now discuss immigration without worrying that people will be accused of being racist, because it is not racist to discuss how we control our borders. Certainly, my constituents, large numbers of whom are second, third or fourth generation Afro-Caribbean, are equally concerned about houses and homes being taken by people who they feel have perhaps not been in the country very long. At least when the Bill comes forward we will be able to debate it in a way that allows us to express our views and to have strong opinions, rather than feeling that if we raise the issue we might be condemned as racists.

I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) is no longer in the Chamber, because I agree with her so much on HS2. As a London MP, I know that people will say that London will benefit enormously, but I believe that it is one of those projects that started off as the idea of some civil servant and became the idea of many engineers and transport experts. Everyone then gathered round and it became an establishment project, and no one wants to say, “Maybe we’ve got it wrong.” I hope that, as she said, during the detailed consideration we will be able to see that the economics of HS2 really do not stand up to scrutiny and that some of the experts who have been offering their knowledge on it are perhaps looking at it from a slightly different view from those who live in the areas that will be affected. In particular, I have grave doubts about the idea that it will boost our economy. I think that the billions that will be spent on that need to be re-examined.

As a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, I was pleased to hear about the Northern Ireland Bill. It is good that Northern Ireland will be discussed and debated on the Floor of the House. All too often now people dismiss Northern Ireland and we cannot get a great deal of discussion about it on the Floor. That is for very good reasons, of course, because in many ways things there are now so much better, but in many other ways they are not. The Bill will provide an opportunity to have that discussion.

The Bill that I would have liked to see—the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee would also agree on this—is one that would allow us a vote on the European Union much earlier than the Government envisage. I am not saying that because of what happened with the UK Independence party last week; I have been saying it for some time. I am pleased to have been joined by so many more colleagues, even on the Labour Benches, and particularly those who in the past have been seen as very pro-Europe. They are now beginning to realise that everything that has been said in the past about ever-closer union has to be criticised and objectively put to the people, because things have changed so much in our relationship with Europe that we cannot ignore the fact that people need a say. If we were to have a vote over the next year on whether to give the people a referendum, I cannot see any party in this Chamber saying that it did not trust people enough to give them a referendum on the future of our relationship with the European Union.

I am disappointed that such a Bill was not included in the Gracious Speech, but I am hopeful that, because the last part of it referred to matters that can be laid before the House, after another month or two the Government, even if they cannot get coalition agreement, will have the confidence and courage to put it to the House so that we can have that debate and discussion and let the people see how their Members of Parliament actually feel about giving them a say in one of the most important issues facing this country.

European Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for that. What is required is not only building these alliances and making those arguments, but, as I said, making it clear that if you cannot get a reasonable deal, you are prepared to go on negotiating right through the night, as we did, or, as we did in November, saying, “This deal isn’t acceptable. You have to go back and think again.”

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

May I, on behalf of my constituents, congratulate the Prime Minister on getting this overall reduction in the budget for the United Kingdom, which will be very welcome indeed? Does he agree that it would be very helpful if all MEPs voted for it? Will he outline to the House exactly what will happen should they not do so?

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously, if we cannot agree a budget, the situation would be very serious. That point was made at the Council repeatedly because, although of course there are emergency arrangements for just continuing with the existing ceilings and rolling them forward, it would be impossible for countries to plan their cohesion spending, their structural fund spending, what roads to build and what networks to put in place. That would be a very unsatisfactory outcome. I hope that the Parliament will look seriously at that, recognise that having no deal would be very bad for all countries that want to see proper planning and proper budgeting, and recognise that this is a good deal and it should accept it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend raises a very important and extremely serious issue. People in our country will have been very concerned to read this morning that while they thought they were buying beefburgers, they were buying something that had horsemeat in it. That is extremely disturbing news. I have asked the Food Standards Agency to conduct an urgent investigation. It has made it clear that there is no risk to public safety, because there is no food safety risk, but this is a completely unacceptable state of affairs. The FSA will meet retailers and processors this afternoon and work with them to investigate the supply chain, but it is worth making the point that, ultimately, retailers have to be responsible for what they sell and where it has come from.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

May I thank the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition for their condolences to the families of those who died in this morning’s helicopter crash in my constituency, and add my condolences and sympathy? Does the Prime Minister agree that amazing work was done this morning, particularly by the fire service? Firefighters from Clapham station arrived very swiftly. Given London’s changing skyline, does he also agree that—not today, but at some stage—we will need to look much more closely at where, how and why helicopters fly through our central city?

Patrick Finucane Report

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I think that what my right hon. Friend is asking is that there should be no circumstances in which there are rogue agents. These things must be done within the law, within proper guidance and within proper procedures, as is entirely right. I can therefore give him the assurance for which he has asked.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and his apology, and I welcome the tone of his statement. Like him, I do not think that a full new independent public inquiry into this very tragic matter would serve any purpose for anyone, but does he agree that the way in which the Government and the country can accept its failings should serve as a lesson to other countries? Does he not think that the Irish Government might consider looking into some of the rumours, and actual evidence, of collusion between the Irish police over such terrible atrocities as the Kingsmill bombing?

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for her support. I hope that others can see that we are holding back nothing, but opening up and showing what happened in all its unbelievable ghastliness. I hope that the Irish Government will appreciate that, while perhaps still believing that a different path should be taken.

The House may be interested to hear the figures relating to other inquiries. The Robert Hamill inquiry began in 2004 and was completed in April 2011, but its findings have not yet been published because of live criminal proceedings. The Rosemary Nelson inquiry report was published in May 2011. The Billy Wright inquiry cost £30.5 million, the Hamill inquiry £32.6 million, and the Nelson inquiry £46.5 million. Each of those inquiries overran significantly in terms of both time and money. The Wright and Hamill inquiries were both established under the Inquiries Act 2005, so the argument that somehow all this was sorted because of a new Inquiries Act does not really hold water.

European Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

What will the Prime Minister do if he does not get a real-terms freeze? Is he prepared to use his veto? Will he also make it clear that he is quite happy for decent, respectable people in my constituency to be members of UKIP?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy for anyone to join any political party—it is a free country. On the budget, we have a clear position. We are trying to get the ceilings down and cuts are already proposed. We want the ceilings down to such an extent that we achieve the real-terms freeze at worst, or a cut at best. I am convinced that we should achieve that if we keep the force of our arguments and keep the coalition of like-minded countries together.

European Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The point I would make to Chancellor Merkel—we do not actually fundamentally disagree about this—is that the single currency needs a banking union. At the heart of that banking union will be the ECB, with a new role as a banking regulator. But clearly as this country is not in the single currency our banking regulator will continue to be the Bank of England, and there will not be any question of the ECB having a say over the Bank of England—that is not the situation. Strangely enough, in a way the challenge is to persuade countries of the eurozone to go far enough in having a banking union that will help to break the link between banks that are in difficulty and sovereigns that are in difficulty. Just as we have a solid banking union for our single currency in the United Kingdom, they need a solid banking union for their single currency in the eurozone.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Did the Prime Minister make it clear—by the way, his use of “United Kingdom” versus “Britain” is improving, but it is not yet good enough—to the other European leaders that we would not contribute towards any of the millions of pounds that the European Commission wishes to spend to tell every European Union citizen how wonderful the EU is? Is that not a ridiculous waste of money?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her school report and I shall continue to try to improve on my use of “United Kingdom” rather than anything else. On the issue of what the European Commission and European Union spend, as we get into this budget debate we should still look at the 6% of the money spent on the EU’s central costs and the fact that, as I said at the weekend, some 16% of Commission officials are paid more than €100,000 a year. Okay, 6% is a small percentage of the total but it is still meaningful in getting a good budget deal.

EU Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is at the heart of the case for remaining in the European Union. We export a large share of our gross domestic product; we need Europe’s markets to be open. I would not want to swap the status that we have, of having both access to the single market and a say over the rules of the single market, for the status of a country that only has access. It is very important, though, that as the eurozone develops and integrates, we make sure that there are safeguards to prevent caucusing at the eurozone level that could disadvantage us in the single market. There is a whole series of steps that we have to take, some of which are about safeguarding what we have, some of which are about making the most of the future, and all of which are achievable if we play our cards right in the years ahead.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

May I simply ask the Prime Minister to look at his terminology? In his statement, he mentioned Britain 12 times; he did not mention the United Kingdom once. Does he agree that if there is to be a referendum, which I think is inevitable, the people of Northern Ireland should have a very strong say? He must, in the European Council, refer to the United Kingdom, or the UK for short; saying “Britain” excludes Northern Ireland.

[The Prime Minister]

As ever, the hon. Lady is right about almost everything, and I am rightly chastised.