Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

My Lords, I shall add a few words based on the Joint Committee’s report. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, is right that this is the clause which caused the committee most concern. We have before us, among other things, a very carefully worded memorandum from the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, the meat of which is set out at pages 96 to 97 of the Joint Committee’s report. That Delegated Powers Committee draws attention to a number of problems that subsection (4) of new Section 178A gives rise to, including the risk of retrospective legislation bringing in offences that were not in the purview of the section when they were committed, without any provision for what would happen to people who were unaware that this might cause them to be disqualified. The committee considered various other aspects, but overall its conclusion was that subsection (4) of the new section should remain in the Bill.

Although the Joint Committee discussed this very fully, we reached the same conclusion, which was put in the report. We were content that the order-making power should be available in the form and subject of the procedures that were proposed, but I draw attention to paragraph 208, which contains the recommendation, that,

“when using the power, the Minister should be required to consult fully on whether it is appropriate and proportionate to include an offence within the list of disqualifying offences”.

The process of consultation would be directed to the variety of problems discussed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its report. There is a question as to whether that requirement should be statutory, or whether it is enough that the Minister would be prepared to say that he would be content to follow what the Joint Committee recommended: that he would consult fully on whether it was appropriate and proportionate to include an offence within the list of qualifying offences. I speak only for myself, but if the Minister was prepared to give an assurance of that kind, that would go some way at least to meeting the noble Baroness’s concerns.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a sobering day even to discuss something with the word “terrorism” in it. I note that the House of Commons had a moment of silence at 3.30 pm, which maybe is a lesson for all of us.

On the amendment before us, the Committee will know that we have always been a bit jumpy about Henry VIII powers. However, it is very important to have this provision in the Bill because I did not move Amendment 7, which we dealt with on the first day of Committee last week, when we dealt with our attempt to include people on the sex offenders register on the list of those who are precluded—which, frankly, I take more seriously than someone who has got into a bit of debt and has an IVA. The Minister did not think that that was appropriate, and I hope very much that he is right and that we will not have a trustee who is on the sexual offenders register and then abuses someone, which would show that I was right and he was wrong. I do not want to be in that position, for fairly obvious reasons. However, if we find that the evidence is that we should have added those on the sex offenders register to those who are precluded from being a trustee, unless there is a waiver, this provision would allow the Minister, at that stage, to put right—unless we win the vote on Report—what would be an omission from the Bill.

There is always a problem with retrospective legislation, which would be the same now for people convicted for other things. Therefore, it will be important that the implementation date of any regulation is in good time to notify people so that they do not suddenly find themselves acting as a trustee and putting a charity at risk because of some new provision that then comes in. However, if it was something such as someone being on the sex offenders register, that is a known register and they would be able to be notified pretty easily that they could no longer act as a trustee. As a failsafe, albeit that any new measure should be by the affirmative procedure, we are content to see this power in the Bill.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for her explanation of this amendment, which was typically reasonable and eloquent. Subsection (4) of new Section 178A, inserted by Clause 9, would enable the Minister by affirmative procedure to make regulations to amend the list of criteria for automatic disqualification by adding or removing an offence.

The Joint Committee that undertook pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill recommended that there be a requirement for any such regulations to be consulted on. The Government agreed and made provision, in subsection (21) of Clause 9, for there to be a requirement to consult on draft regulations where they add an offence.

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s first report of this Session stated that the committee was satisfied with the delegation and level of scrutiny in relation to this power when it had advised the Joint Committee on the Draft Protection of Charities Bill. It recognised that the Cabinet Office may in future need to take urgent steps to specify offences that should result in automatic disqualification, and considered that the affirmative resolution procedure would provide an appropriate safeguard.

The DPRRC, however, has raised a question about the commencement of new Section 178A and any regulations made under it. The last Government’s response to the Joint Committee’s report on the draft protection of charities Bill stated that we,

“commit to ensuring that sufficient time would be allowed before the commencement of such provisions”.

I will, therefore, happily provide a commitment to your Lordships that a disqualification would not take place under new Section 178A in relation to a person previously convicted of a specified offence until at least two months after enactment of the section and, in all but exceptional circumstances, until at least two months after the date that any regulations are made under subsection (4). We would want to ensure there was sufficient time to notify charities of the new offences.

When the Bill becomes law, we will publish an implementation plan that will set out when the different provisions of the Bill will be commenced. This will include the timetable for commencement of the automatic disqualification provisions under new Section 178A. The Charity Commission has said that it is planning a wide-ranging communications strategy in order to give those affected by automatic disqualification a fair opportunity to learn of the relevant changes before they come into force. Where we undertake any consultation, we will ensure that it is compliant with the compact.

I know that the Lords Constitution Committee has also considered the power to add offences. Its second report of this current Session states that this power to add new offences is not explicitly constrained in its scope, so perhaps I can provide some assurances to your Lordships on how the power would be used, and address a number of the points made.

First, while it may be considered unnecessary, I should nevertheless point out that there are no plans to exercise the power. Its purpose is to enable Ministers in future to amend the list of offences as new criminal offences are created which may be identified as appropriate for automatic disqualification, or criminal offences currently listed may no longer be appropriate, meaning the list needs to be updated. The prospect of a power to amend the list of offences was raised in consultation last year and was generally well supported by respondents, provided the power is subject to the affirmative procedure.

It should go without saying that, in considering any new offence to add to the list, there would need to be a clear rationale for adding that particular offence. The offence would have to be relevant to a person’s fitness to act as a trustee. We would set that out in consulting on the addition of any new offence. That consultation is a statutory requirement. Of course, the safeguards of the public consultation and the affirmative resolution procedure in Parliament—a point my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts raised—should also provide a significant measure of assurance.

I hope that I have been able to give sufficient assurances to your Lordships on how this power would be used, and invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

12: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
“Disposal of assets
Charities may not, and may not be compelled to, use or dispose of their assets in a way which is inconsistent with their charitable purposes.”

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, Amendment 12 stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Watson. It effectively just states the existing legal position. It is here to remind trustees of their existing duties for when the Government later mandate them to sell their charitable property under right to buy. As the Minister knows, the Opposition are not against right to buy. Indeed, we want those who desire to be home owners to achieve that. Likewise, the National Housing Federation and housing associations want to help tackle the housing crisis, but in their view a compulsory right to buy would make it more difficult. It is not the right way to achieve it.

In his maiden speech, the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, said that forcing charities to sell off their property is wrong in principle and in practice. At a subsequent event, he said it would work entirely counter to the overwhelming priority of promoting new supply. The debate in the Chamber on Thursday saw Tories, Lib Dems and Cross-Benchers line up to condemn the proposal, and surely that will make the Government think again. Housing associations, which are mostly charities, provide 2.5 million homes for some 5 million people on affordable rents. They are rented privately, and many enable people with disabilities or care needs to live independent lives. Others are for shared ownership to help those on lower incomes to buy their homes. Housing associations build 45,000 homes a year and would like to build 120,000, matching what private builders are able to do. This aim could be undermined by them being forced to sell off their stock.

We know that civil servants warned Downing Street about the cost, which I think is at least £5 billion but could be more, and about the difficulties of replacing those sold, leading to a shortage of affordable homes. We know that in local government terms only one in 10 homes sold under RTB were replaced. Furthermore, any diminution of housing stock can harm housing associations’ borrowing powers. As the NHF has said:

“With a nation in the throes of a housing crisis, it is key that housing associations are in full control of the assets against which they borrow to build homes”.

The NHF obviously wants to increase home ownership, but it is concerned that the right to buy will make it more difficult to tackle the housing crisis. Right to buy could make it harder for the housing associations to deliver their charitable objective, which is, of course, providing for people in greatest housing need.

We know that housing associations lever in private finance in order to meet their charitable objectives and to manage their assets effectively. Forcing them to sell properties would give them less control over these decisions and, importantly for this Bill, would make it more difficult for them to meet their charitable purpose.

The National Housing Federation also worries that such interference sets a dangerous precedent for government intervention in independent charities. It cannot support giving government a role which should be the preserve of housing associations’ own charitable trustees. The NCVO similarly fears that the compulsory sale of charity assets through right to buy sets a worrying precedent of government interference in the running of independent charities. It would also, says the NCVO, contradict the rule that charities cannot dispose of assets other than in pursuit of their charitable objectives—in other words, using such assets for charitable rather than for political or private benefit. Hence, the NCVO supports Amendment 12.

There are other concerns about the policy, such as whether any bequests could be invalidated in the circumstances of a forced sale. We should remember the history of major providers of social housing. Peabody, close by here, was founded in 1862 by an American banker, diplomat and philanthropist, George Peabody, to,

“ameliorate the condition of the poor and needy in this great metropolis”.

Peabody’s mission remains much today as it was in 1862: to help make London,

“a city of opportunity for all”,

by helping people have a good home with a feeling of belonging which grows from involvement in the neighbourhood and the spirit of togetherness. Furthermore, Peabody strives to ensure that the landlord service is tailored to the individual, and residents are supported in their daily lives and in their aspirations. So not only would the forced sale of this property counter the bequest’s terms but, as those houses were sold on—perhaps let to the private sector—the charity’s aims could not be met.

During Second Reading, the Minister said that there was a precedent for housing association tenants accessing discounts to buy their own home. However, the preserved right to buy, which I assume he was referring to, applies to homes transferred from a local authority—and which thus have been built with public money—to a housing association. Charitable law is overruled in that case only because the charity was aware when it acquired these homes that right to buy applied. It is therefore a little misleading to suggest that this is similar to what is now being proposed, which will cover all housing association homes, whether donated to the charity, perhaps by special deeds setting out the purpose of the gift, or funded by money raised to house a particular client group.

The policy would reduce the supply of affordable homes. Given that such right to buy for housing associations would be funded through the forced sale of council properties, this would itself reduce the number of affordable homes. There are 2 million people on waiting lists due to the dearth of homes at affordable rents for low earners. Expecting the sale of a council home to both fund its replacement and reimburse the housing associations sounds to me like double-counting, and in London, of course, a complete impossibility.

The National Housing Federation, which is, of course, the expert in this field, calculates that the taxpayer’s money could be much better targeted at ending the housing crisis. On its assumption that there will be about 220,000 eligible tenants who could afford to take up the right to buy, the discount would be £11.6 billion—for 220,000 people. That amount could provide 660,000 homes for shared ownership, which would give three times as many people a foot on the ladder. Housing associations already help people to buy their own homes, with some 250,000 now in shared-ownership homes.

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[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. The Minister should really thank us for doing this now. If he has not picked up that this measure is going to be one of those things that will be extremely hard to get through this House, then he has heard nothing. I realise that he is new to the House, but if he listened to what was said on Thursday, including from his own party, he will know that this one ain’t going to happen. Therefore, I think that he will in the long term be grateful to us for having given due warning and enabled him to steer his colleagues off a track which will be highly bumpy for them.

If the Minister hears nothing else from today, he should listen to what my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours said. These homes were built not just for one lot of lucky people; they were built not just for one generation but in perpetuity. He has given no answer on that point, because once you sell them off, they are gone. I was disappointed that the Minister said that it was all about income. No, this is not about income; it is about communities. They could be homes rented out, for example, to a community of retired actors or retired nurses—I think that there is a housing association near Bournemouth where all its residents were in nursing and worked in that community together. If you sell that off, you do not just sell off a house and have the money back; you no longer have that shared understanding of the people who have been given a stake in that way. No, it is not just about money and I am sorry that the Minister used that phrase.

This issue is not just about charities; it goes wider. Loan sharks are already circulating. Most of the people who can take advantage of this measure have to be fairly rich, because, even with the £100,000 that the Government are going to give you from local government, you still have to get the other £100,000. On the whole, you have to be fairly rich; it is not the £15,000-a-year earners that my noble friend referred to. So it is already the top end of that market who can use it. For the ones below who cannot, the loan sharks are there saying, “You’re going to get £100,000 if you get this, so how about this? I give you the money, you get the mortgage for the other £100,000, you take the £100,000 that is coming, and in three years’ time I’ll be back and we’ll share it out. I’ll get £50,000 and you’ll get £50,000”. We know those people are there. That is not particularly about the charity aspect, but if the Government do not understand that that is what happens, they have learnt very little.

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Moved by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

13: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
“Regulation of fundraising
(1) All fundraising charities must be members of the Fundraising Standards Board and abide by their Code of Fundraising Practice.
(2) In section 64A of the Charities Act 1992, as inserted by section 69 of the Charities Act 2006 (reserve power to control fund-raising by charitable institutions)—
(a) in the title omit “Reserve”;(b) in subsection (1) for “may” substitute “must”.”

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this amendment is also in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie. When we are discussing it, we refer to it by the shorthand “Olive’s Law” as it arises from the complaints about somewhat overpushy fundraisers in the wake of the tragic suicide of 92 year-old poppy seller, Olive Cooke.

As the Minister knows, hundreds have since reported how they, too, came under pressure, with particular concerns about the elderly, some with dementia, being targeted. At Second Reading, I referred to the Mail on Sunday story of the underhand methods of a private company which appeared to break every rule in the book to make money for itself as well as for charities that were employing it. Cold calling is a particular curse of the housebound and risks damaging trust in charities. We also see charities, having secured one donation, ratcheting-up demands, leading people to fear that if they give they will just be asked for more.

The issue is whether the existing self-regulation is working. Our view is that it is not. A third of fundraising charities are not even members of the Fundraising Standards Board, and charities or the private companies they use can continue to fundraise even if expelled from the board.

The Fundraising Standards Board self-regulation system, which is effectively funded and run by and on behalf of those it seeks to regulate, has, we say, failed to work. It has not done the monitoring to check up on its members. Indeed, without the tragic case of Olive Cooke and the exposé by the Mail, we might know nothing of these practices other than from the anecdotal complaints we all hear about in our personal lives. I was with some elderly friends last night, and without me even raising the question it was one of the things that kept coming up in conversation. However, it was not coming to us from the board that should have monitored this.

The Fundraising Standards Board has not publicised its existence, meaning that those with complaints never took them to it, and it has not outlawed unacceptable practices. This, of course, is not just my view. The Minister for Civil Society, Rob Wilson, calls this,

“a critical time for charity fundraising”.

He concludes:

“Charities’ hard won reputation is at serious risk”.

His “last chance saloon” warning was for charities to show that their fundraising was “beyond reproach” quickly, as they,

“do not have the luxury of time”.

He called on the sector to respect the wishes of householders who do not want to be disturbed at home and to respect “no cold caller” stickers on doors. He also acknowledged that many of us question the self-regulation model. Although it appeared that he favoured one last period of grace, he warned that the,

“window of opportunity … may not remain open for much longer”,

and advised the sector to change rather than,

“allow others to do it for you”.

I do not think that Minister had it quite right with that final warning, but I think he may have moved on since then.

We have concluded that the time has passed for charities to be able to choose whether they want to join the Fundraising Standards Board, or to abide by the code of conduct set by the Institute of Fundraising, by which the FRSB adjudicates complaints, and to put their own house in order—hence, the first part of Amendment 13, which would oblige large charities to belong, thus making their expulsion a matter for Charity Commission intervention. We do not have all charities in mind, but those raising more than, say, £1 million a year. On Report, we will find a form of words to either include a specific figure, or to have the figure set out in regulations, but the principle is clear.

The NCVO, which obviously speaks for many charities, usually prefers effective self-regulation to statutory regulation, as, normally, do we, because it is flexible, responsive, and cost-effective. However, it accepts that the regulatory regime must secure public trust and agrees that there is clear public concern over fundraising. It therefore agrees that self-regulation should be strengthened,

“to a point where an objective observer would say beyond doubt that the interests of the public are sufficiently represented”.

Sir Stuart Etherington of the NCVO said that,

“the correct regulatory regime is not one that is convenient for those who are being regulated, but one that … balances the interests of the public and the regulated … fundraising self-regulation can be successful … but … only … when it is … sufficiently robust and seen to be sufficiently robust”.

The NCVO concludes that change is required, including giving the Fundraising Standards Board a remit over large fundraising charities. It therefore supports Amendment 13, which would require charities to be members of the Fundraising Standards Board, and to abide by the code of fundraising practice. Crisis—which I think of as Crisis at Christmas, although it is a long time since it was called that—one of the charities which would be covered, favours a greater investigative role for the fundraising regulator, with action taken on identifying and dealing with bad practice. It would therefore favour the institute’s code of conduct applying to all large fundraising charities.

The public are with us. More than two-thirds agree that charities should be regulated more. That was before Olive’s case was publicised, so they already had concerns. We are not the first to identify the need to strengthen the regime. There is already a reserve power ready and waiting that allows the Charity Commission to regulate fundraising. It is time to implement this, hence the second part of the amendment, on which we have reason to believe the Government have now reached the same conclusion. Yesterday’s Sunday Telegraph reported that:

“Charities have been given until the middle of this week”—

tomorrow, 30 June—

“to curb their pressure selling techniques to raise money or face action from the charity regulator … Section 64A of the Charities Act 2006 gives”,

the Minister,

“a ‘reserve power to control fund raising’, including imposing ‘good practice requirement’ on charities”.

We want good charity fundraising to continue. We salute the British public, who give more than £12 billion a year—more than the Government’s aid budget. However, we owe it not just to Olive, but to all the many hundreds who have been hassled by charity fundraisers to stamp out malpractice. This amendment is the way forward. I beg to move.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the noble Baroness, and I understand the frustration and disappointment that underlines much of her speech. Before I go any further, I remind the Committee of my tangential connection to Pell & Bales, which is involved in the charity fundraising sector.

My review had a whole chapter—15 pages or more—concerning fundraising. It is one of the areas which caused the most angst, difficulty and comment. The conclusions were that we need to drive forward ways to improve self-regulation because that is probably the most flexible and cost-effective way of regulating the sector, that there needs to be changes in the way that public charitable elections take place and that there needs to be a clear programme for implementing change and monitoring progress towards it.

I shall be making some relatively disobliging remarks about the charitable fundraising sector in the next few minutes. However, before doing so, there is a case for the defence which ought to be put on the record this afternoon. The first point is that charities must have the right to ask. If they cannot ask, then the amount of fundraising that charities will be able to do will fall dramatically. That is balanced by the right of the public not to be unduly hassled. It is that nexus which we are seeking to find in any fundraising regulatory system.

Secondly, the public do not really like any money being spent on fundraising. They would like every pound that they give to go straight to the beneficiary of the charity, not even to be used by the administration of the charity—hence the concerns about the salaries of chief executives in the sector. That is an issue which the sector has not been able to address. There is an argument for explaining to the public that, in order to have effective fundraising, it is possible that you will need to pay someone money for it. The statistics are that a direct debit signed on the street—the so-called “chuggers”—on average lasts for four years or 48 months, and the charities expect to pay 10 to 18 months of that for the work that is done to get the donation in the first place, which amounts to between 20% and 33%. The public would say that it is outrageous that it costs that amount of money, but from the charity’s point of view, they are getting 67p to 80p in the pound that they would not be getting otherwise. There is a difficult philosophical balance to be established.

Thirdly, the legislation is very uneven. The cash collection—the tin-rattling, as we might call it—dates from 1916, and the charitable collections door-to-door regulation dates from 1939, but local authorities have entirely different standards. Some local authorities will give permission in a week or two, others want two years’ notice, and of course in London local authorities do not do it at all as the Metropolitan Police are the licensing authority. Meanwhile, while we are agonising, quite appropriately, about charitable collections, commercial collections have no regulation whatever. They are free to behave as they wish.

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Therefore you have four different types of fundraising appeal, and then you have the ways you can raise the money. You can raise it door-to-door; by collecting on the street, either on public property—on the highway—or on private property, when there is tin-rattling in the local supermarket or in a railway station; by direct mail; by telephone; or by email and the internet. Therefore there are six ways you can raise the money, and we can see that there are 24 regulatory boxes to fill in. That is quite a complicated thing to do. With respect to the noble Baroness, when she says that all charities belong to the Fundraising Standards Board, Mrs Jones in Acacia Avenue can never join the Fundraising Standards Board and probably does not even know what it is. To try to find ways to get her to comply with some national arrangement would be almost impossible. She is fundraising for a charity—it will be an excepted charity, but certainly a charity. Therefore while I understand what the noble Baroness is driving at, she has a sledge-hammer here which is not hitting quite the right—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Will the noble Lord accept that when I moved the amendment, I said that I was talking about charities that raise £1 million a year? It would be very nice if Mrs—I’ve forgotten her name—does—

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

That is absolutely right. The noble Baroness did say that, but her amendment says, “All fundraising charities”. I know she slightly shifted the ground in the middle of her speech, and I accept that.

What, then, is the problem? There is reluctance in the sector to accept that every problem is everybody’s problem. There is a tendency to push the pea round the plate and to blame another sector, so the chuggers in the street blame the telephone collectors, who blame the direct mail people, and so on. They say, “It’s not our problem—it’s somebody else’s”. There is also reputational pride in individual charities: “We don’t do that sort of thing—other people do that”. Therefore there is a real need for the sector to understand that it is judged by the weakest link, and unless it takes steps to remedy it, the sorts of results the noble Baroness talked about will occur.

Secondly, there is a failure to see that the alphabet soup of regulatory bodies—the IoF, FRSB, the PFRA and the Charity Retail Association—is confusing to the public. They often appear to be acting quite separately; the FRSB’s report on Mrs Cooke said:

“Fundamentally, the FRSB Board believes that the IOF Code must be strengthened”,

as if they are completely separate organisations, way away from each other. It seems much neater to collaborate and work closely together.

There are three things that we should encourage the sector to do. The public need a single point of entry into the system—whether they wish to approach it by phone, by email or by letter—by which complaints or concerns can be addressed. All the bodies involved in charity fundraising regulation and all charities need to pool their sovereignty into a single charity self-regulating organisation, called, say, the charity fundraising authority. That would be tasked with producing national guidelines and model rules with which local authorities should comply. If they do not comply they should explain why they are not complying. They should also provide internal best practice rules for fundraising, in particular about things like passing on names of donors to other charities, because the Olive Cooke case was about the pressure built up by repeated approaches from charities. The Government need to oversee this, either directly or through the Charity Commission.

This will be a challenge to the sector, which has not found it easy to accept change and responsibility for one another. I accept and agree that the situation is not satisfactory and action needs to be taken, but I wish good luck to whoever takes it on and suggest that they pack a tin hat.

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As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, we have the reserve power which would enable Ministers to introduce statutory regulation should the sector fail to rise to the challenge, but we do not believe that it should be exercised now. It is worth pointing out that most of the charities that have been in the media recently for poor practices are already members of the FRSB, so while there is a need to increase membership, it is just as important that bodies responsible for regulation must raise the standards themselves. I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. Before I respond—I hope I will take only a couple of moments—I have a particular view that some of this forgets who are the people affected. They tend to be vulnerable. It is not just charities that treat them that way. I shall very briefly tell the Committee something that happened over the weekend. I have an aunt and an uncle aged 91 and 93. My uncle’s Alzheimer’s is quite bad, and seven weeks ago he had to move into a home. Two weeks after that, my aunt, who is 91, had a very bad stroke. The NHS was completely brilliant, and she is back home. They are highly vulnerable people. This is not a story about a charity. It is about Barclays Bank, which on Saturday wrote to them informing them that it was going to close their account. It had failed to contact them—actually it had not tried—and was going to close their account. It said that,

“we will not be prepared to offer you any new banking services”,

and would not give them a reference for any other bank. If a body such as Barclays, which is regulated by the FCA, can so mistreat elderly people, my concern is that it is not just charities that are affecting them. The vulnerable are getting this from everywhere. Therefore the standards have to be particularly high. They are not for you and me. I have talked to lots of people around the House since we raised this, and they have said, “I’ve cancelled my standing order. I just can’t do those phone calls any more”. We are robust enough to cancel standing orders, to say boo, or in this case to get on to Barclays, which is emailing me at this moment saying “Please don’t mention our name”, “We promise we’ll put it right shortly” and “We didn’t really mean to send the letter”. It is outrageous behaviour. Like the charitable stuff, it is particularly the vulnerable who we need to protect. I think the only difference between us is whether we are in the last chance saloon. My view is that we are already there, and we need to get out and do something about it. I think what the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said was actually close to me, although he may not have thought that. By saying that there should be a single point of entry and that the Government should oversee the process either directly or via the Charity Commission—if I have got his words down correctly—that is one stage further on than the last chance saloon. Perhaps he and I should get an amendment together for Report because we really need that extra little bit now.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

The danger about moving as the noble Baroness says is that when in two years from now there is a charge from the Government for regulating the sector, there will be an enormous outcry, so what looks attractive to begin with will be inflexible, expensive and even more unpopular than the present system. It would be better from every point of view, accepting all the points about vulnerable people, if the sector could be persuaded to take up the challenge, find the will, find the money and make it happen, because it will make it happen in an effective way. The problem at the moment is that it has not really accepted that there is a fundamental problem and thinks that if there is a problem, it is not its problem but somebody else’s.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I would like to follow that up by saying that I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is absolutely right that one of the big issues—in this field in particular, but it is a big issue right across our society that we have not got to grips with—is how we will include people with dementia in all sorts of aspects of our life. This is true in terms of the NHS, and social care, and here.

The voluntary sector ought to be the one place in our society where we can go and talk to the Alzheimer’s Society and ask what a proper code of conduct and practice might look like. It is self-evident from what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, that the commercial sector has not got this right yet. Organisations such as banks are the bodies in our society that should be at the forefront of dealing with transactions with individuals, even more than government. Banks have millions of transactions every day with millions of individuals, including older people. They clearly have not got it right. We should have one go in our sector at getting it right for everybody else. If that does not work, then by all means go down the route that the noble Baroness wants to go.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

It is clear that the distance between us is very small. My worry concerns the idea that we will not have another charity Bill in this Parliament. If I had an absolute commitment that we would have another Bill in two years’ time, so that if we had not done it we could do it then, that would be fine, but my fear is that this will be the only such Bill and this is the chance that we should take.

Having said that, I agree with a lot of what the Minister said. In terms of his plea—or threat; I do not know—to trustees to take a more active interest in this, his words were well chosen. The words from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on a single point of entry were very good, too. However, there must be some way of overseeing that it happens. Even if the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, does not want to come back with a suggestion on Report, we will try to see whether there is a way that puts an extra little voomph—sorry, Hansard—behind this, so that we do not have to wait. The real problem is that we had to wait for Olive to know that this was going on. That showed the Fundraising Standards Board that it was not just a matter of standards but a matter of enforcement. One disagreement that I have with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is when he says that it will be very expensive. I think that some money must be spent on this, because the Fundraising Standards Board, even if it is still self-regulated, must do some monitoring, and that always costs money. If we do not do that, the long-term problem will be that we no longer have this very precious sector, which I think all of us agree is one of the great prides of this country.

Having said that, we will seek a way to come back that gets maximum support. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 13 withdrawn.