Conversion Therapy Prohibition (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Friday 9th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a delight to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. I pay particular tribute to the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Hunt, which I found insightful and helpful. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, for introducing the Bill because it enables those of us who support a ban on attempts to supposedly cure people of their gayness to nevertheless explain why we have grave concerns about the Bill, especially as there was no pre-legislative scrutiny.

Like everyone in the House, I hope, I am certainly not anti-trans, and I am not worried about what consenting adults do in public or in private, but I am worried about children and young people, and it is about safeguarding that I want to speak. I certainly support the outlawing of conversion therapy with regard to sexual orientation, and I am respectful of trans people whose lives are greatly improved by their change in gender.

However, there are major risks affecting transgender issues in relation to young people. We are talking not about a way of life or sexual preferences but about serious, potentially life-altering medical or surgical intervention. Our former colleague Baroness Ruth Rendell campaigned against female genital mutilation and helped to introduce laws that made it an offence to send a child abroad for that procedure. I wonder what she would have thought about prescribing pills to a 16 year-old that could lead to infertility, the loss of sexual function and physical complications, without thorough advice and counselling, at an age when the decision to end the possibility of childbearing is surely too young.

I should know. Just as some people are sure from an early age that they are gay or would be happier in another gender, I always knew I would never have a child, but it took until I was 26 before a surgeon was willing to take the step beyond just taking the pill. Even then, he took me to a psychiatrist for an assessment before he actually booked an anaesthetist—and that was only to tie my tubes. I do not regret the psychiatrist, and nor do I think that was inappropriate—and I was 26 at the time, not 16.

Puberty blockers, which are given off licence because they have not been licensed for transitioning children—they are the same drug that we use for chemical castration—are wholly more significant than just tube tying, yet the Bill risks criminalising any psychiatrist, therapist, teacher, doctor, or perhaps parent or church minister who seeks to engage with that youngster and test their request to transition. Is it not a duty on any surgeon or prescribing medic to be absolutely sure that a young person really understands all the consequences of such a life-changing and irreversible medical intervention before they simply affirm and assent to the patient’s request?

There is of course an interesting question about whether the Bill covers only a discussion about whether the patient is certain they want to make a change. What about discussions the other way—the automatic gender-affirming treatments that come close to persuading someone that they want to transition? Perhaps it is those therapists who are engaging in conversion therapy, albeit directing someone to transition as a way of resolving unhappiness or dissatisfaction in their current life, or mere confusion because they are still very young. That is not neutral exploration; it is one-way advice. It says, “This is the answer to your problems”. Sometimes it is, but the idea that we criminalise discussion that explores the reason for the desire for change and checks that the young person fully understands the impact of physical change, with the possible or probable loss of childbearing and sexual function, probably before they have even enjoyed good sex, is ludicrous.

Informed consent, especially at 16, needs complete understanding. Sixteen year-olds cannot vote. They cannot have a tattoo until they are 18; they cannot marry until they are 18. While we believe that marriage—which can be undone; we have already had examples of that—cannot take place until they are 18, we seem content for a 16 year-old to risk their future without the benefit of talking therapy to ensure that they understand the risks.

My friend’s daughter started hormone treatment at 16. Within months, her voice had broken and she will now have a man’s voice for the rest of her life—from age 16. There are practitioners who are very happy to speed transition for young people—irreversible changes without parental consent. Gender Plus, for example, markets itself as follows:

“Post-assessment referral to our associated hormone clinic is available to those aged 16 years+ … Hormone clinics … will be run as a hybrid offering of in-person and virtual appointments (consent must be taken in-person)”.


It also states:

“The clinics are … nurse led, run by our Nurse Consultant who has several years experience”


with GIDS—the Tavistock. Apart from final consent, a nurse-led virtual consultation is all that is necessary for that agency for potentially life-altering, irreversible medical intervention that is likely to lead to infertility.

This unquestioning affirmative approach is not open-minded, and it is at odds with standard practice in all other clinical encounters. My fear, despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, says, is that this Bill will outlaw anything other than unquestioning affirmative treatment. I could not support it in its present form.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, before the noble Earl speaks, I just want to say something to the House as gently as possible. This is a very impassioned debate and the speaking time is of course advisory, but I remind the House that there is business to come after this Bill. If we can respect the advisory time as closely as possible, I am sure that everyone would appreciate it.

Cabinet Manual

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 24th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. The Cabinet Secretary made it clear in his letter to the committees that the plan was to complete the work so that the new and revised Cabinet Manual could be published in good time for the next general election.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that the Opposition should be consulted on this, just in case the next incumbent should be Keir Starmer? Could it perhaps start with an undertaking that—in the absence today of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy—we revert to the “good chaps” theory of government whereby the Prime Minister and all Ministers keep to not just the law but the spirit of the law?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The procedure we are going to follow is to engage the committees, as I explained, because they can do a good job in bringing together the views of parliamentarians on the Cabinet Manual. Obviously, in due course the revised manual will become available, but the first step will be to consult the committees. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake —I am not sure whether she is in her place—led a very good debate in the autumn on this matter. We will also consult key academics. As the noble Baroness said, it is a great pity that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, is not in his place. However, I make the point that the Cabinet Manual records rules and practices; it is not intended to be the source of new rules.

Public Service Ombudsman for England

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think I have already commented on the MP filter. We do think that the international principles are important, but we also need to make sure that the existing system, which focuses very well on individuals, is not undermined. I was looking at the website today and I was struck by how this does not look only at big and well-known cases but at individual ones; for example, a man died days before his wedding to his partner of 40 years due to a hospital failing, and remedies were put forward by the ombudsman. The MP filter, a democratic element, really is important in the complaints process.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

But, my Lords, MPs are not able to do that sort of inquiry when they get something from a patient; all they can do is say, “Yes, I agree with it”, and forward it on. What we know, as the noble and learned Lord said, is that nine out of 10 people who first go to the ombudsman and are then told they cannot do it without an MP supporting them go no further. How does the Minister explain to those nine out of 10 that they have no access to redress for anything that has gone wrong?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

On the health area, there was an extensive debate during the passage of the Health and Care Act last year, and I will reflect further on the point the noble Baroness has made and come back to her. However, in some areas such as the DWP there is of course an independent case examiner, which also helps with the flow. We are talking about big numbers here already. I was looking at the figures: there were 5,330 PHSO cases in 2020-21, so it is important that we find a way of resolving complaints, not necessarily through the ombudsman. You need a combination of the two systems.

Parliament: Deferred Peerages

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My noble friend always comes to my rescue in the most extraordinary way. Of course, we are grateful for the views and exchanges being expressed today, but I come back to my first point: it is important not to speculate on what is put forward in newspapers and so on. I always remember when I was in the newspapers because I was going to be appointed director-general of the Confederation of British Industry, when I had not even put my name forward. There is a matter of fairness and appropriateness that we need to take into account—despite the fun we are obviously having in debating this today.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a serious legislature; this is not a playground for former friends of former Prime Ministers to come here at a moment of their convenience. We have had the Burns report and know that we should be smaller to do our job properly. Will the Minister ask the Prime Minister to meet the Burns committee—I have not asked committee members whether they would be willing—to concentrate on the important thing, which is enabling us as a serious legislature to do our job properly, with fewer Members, rather than having people waiting to come in after the next election?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

The Burns committee did of course report and the Prime Minister of the day, Theresa May, decided not to sign up to its recommendations—although, as has been said, there was a manifesto commitment to look at the role of the Lords, with any reform needing careful consideration and not being piecemeal. We obviously also have the very important House of Lords Appointments Commission. Upon taking office, it is the normal thing for the Prime Minister of the day to meet the chairman of HOLAC, as he or she values the advice of the commission, which obviously includes Members of this House.

Negotiating Objectives for a Free Trade Agreement with India

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

That the Grand Committee takes note of Her Majesty’s Government’s negotiating objectives for a free trade agreement with India.

Relevant documents: 6th Report from the International Agreements Committee

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to open this first debate under the auspices of the country’s new Prime Minister, a woman—I am sorry, but we can never let an opportunity to say that go. We hope that the new Prime Minister will welcome full parliamentary scrutiny over future trade deals and international agreements.

I am delighted to note that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Frost, appears on the speakers’ list. I looked twice to see whether there was a V beside it. Having heard the rumours of him searching for a Commons seat, I wondered whether he would be using this as his valedictory. From our point our view, I am delighted that there is no V after his name. We will certainly be interested to hear his and other views not only on this deal but on what it says about the Government’s approach to trade.

The International Agreements Committee has long called for a full position paper on how the Government see our future trade relationships, and how these sit alongside their broader foreign policy, defence and security approaches. In the Lords, we owe thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone. I was going to announce, with great delight, that he is about to join our committee, but if the speculation in the Spectator is true, he is actually going to become Leader of this House. I understand that this may be the Spectator speaking out of order; he was indeed thinking of joining our committee before. As the Minister, the noble Lord has made sure that the International Agreements Committee has had time to peruse the main trade deals and, when requested, has granted a debate, as today. I again welcome the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, who is either holding the fort or, for all we know, a new role—in which case, I welcome him twice over.

Today is important but perhaps also irrelevant. I will explain. We are here to debate the Government’s objectives for their negotiations with India, but the FT reported even before the Summer Recess that 11 of the 26 chapters were done and dusted, and the Department for International Trade claims that everything will be complete next month. So although the Government have had our report since the end of July, it looks as if they proceeded without awaiting any parliamentary input.

This haste brings two risks: first, that the final deal might be unacceptable to the Commons, which can delay ratification, theoretically indefinitely; and, secondly, that by tying itself to an arbitrary target date, Diwali, it risks settling for less than an optimal outcome. I would have thought—I cannot help looking at the noble Lord, Lord Frost, again—that the Government would have learned from the experience of the EU deal having to be sealed two years after Article 50 was triggered that when time is a major card in the hand of negotiators it makes no sense to gift it away. The committee worries that prioritising speed over content means that, come October, we will see something very thin by way of a deal, or worse—that in the rush we will compromise, and give away more than is needed for less than is wanted.

Indeed, business warned the Secretary of State to put the brakes on the talks or risk leaving important sectors behind. Eleven trade bodies stressed that

“It is the content of the deal which matters ... not speed of negotiation”.


They urged the Government to hold out for a meaningful, comprehensive deal, even if it means missing the self-imposed deadline of Diwali. So why the haste? Politico reported that the Secretary of State’s office had concerns about pressure to deliver a deal as a symbolic win for the new Prime Minister, and City AM was being told by various “trade department sources” that the Diwali deadline came from above, leaving little time to negotiate a thorough deal with the traditionally protectionist India. We hope, therefore, that the Minister will reassure us that UK interests, not a photocall for the new Prime Minister, will determine the content of any FTA and that a pre-publicised target date will not lead to an unsatisfactory outcome.

What is the outcome that the UK wants from a deal? Most Indian imports are duty free already, whereas some of our exports to India face very high tariffs—some of the highest amongst WTO members, with different tariffs in different states. These changing tariffs are of a size that makes exporting extremely testing, so movement here should be a major objective.

As importantly, if a trade deal is to mean anything to UK companies it needs to be easier to do business in India. As our report makes clear, there is much to do in this respect, yet this vital issue is absent from the Department for International Trade’s documentation. Our worry is that it is absent because the department does not understand its importance. It is regrettable that Ministers have not set out their priority areas. Government should be engaging with Parliament and stakeholders as to how it is seeking to lower business barriers, which is key for future trade.

Our report uses the word “corruption” to spell out just one of the challenges. But there is also uncertainty, delays, changing rules, lack of enforcement even when adjudication favours a UK exporter, inadequate policing of rules and procedures, ownership requirements favouring local providers, and so forth. For some areas, there is a complete lack of access. These issues need to be high on the Government’s list of demands. The committee is also worried by the lack of any push from our side for an independent dispute mechanism which UK investors and businesses can access, because without this the costs of doing business are very high, given all the risks that already face them in exporting. There was such a mechanism in play until ended by the Indian Government in 2017. We are worried that we are actually regressing on this issue.

One key indicator of the quality—the breadth and depth—of an agreement will be: does it make business easier? If India is to continue with the wide access it already has to our markets, and perhaps get greater access for its citizens to work here—and possibly not even pay NI—it behoves our Government to stand up for UK plc and ensure that this vibrant, expanding and potentially exciting market really is open to our service and manufacturing sectors.

There are two further questions for the Government before they offer a deal to India. These flow from our constant request of Ministers that they spell out their policy on trade and how it fits into their wider defence, security, development, environmental and domestic objectives. We raised this question of strategy with the Minister in our debate on Australia, after which he kindly wrote emphasising that the Government’s trade policy is framed by the strategic context set out in the integrated review. However, it is hard to see how expanding our economic relations with India sits with our unequivocal commitment to European security when we see India undermining our sanctions on Russia —indeed, profiting from increased trade with Russia—and failing to condemn the invasion of Ukraine.

Although the Government might argue that a trade deal will help build relations and therefore influence, elsewhere they suggest that they already have those relations, but they do not seem to be very effective. The Minister’s letter says that the Government will publish strategic cases for each new FTA and that each strategic case places the trade agreement within our wider strategic approach. If that is the case, can the noble Viscount set out how this deal sits happily with the Government’s welcome, and appropriate, stance on Ukraine?

Even more important, perhaps, is the second issue: the lack of a tie-up with the integrated review’s frequent references to tackling climate change. They are not evident from these negotiating objectives, which say nothing about India’s reliance on coal, nor about how the deal would help achieve the reduction in greenhouse gases to which we are pledged. Perhaps the Minister could again explain how the strategic case for this FTA really does, in his words, fit within our wider strategic approach.

Our trade with India is already substantial and will, I hope, become even more so. Any FTA would be the most consequential to date of any post-Brexit deal. We are talking about a large and expanding market, a Commonwealth country with which we have strong ties, and an economy that is becoming one of the world’s most significant. Such an FTA must therefore be robust, forward-looking and fair to consumers, workers, the environment, business and future generations, respecting both human rights and democracy. As we have made clear, a major issue is how business can be helped to make increased trade with India a reality, given the obstacles I have outlined. Will moves to overcome them be in such a deal, or will they be forgotten? We share the Government’s ambitions for trade deals, although we wish that they were realistic and that the objectives set out were less vague so that Parliament could see what Ministers are seeking to achieve.

Members of the International Agreements Committee, our clerk and advisers have worked hard to bring this report before your Lordships. I thank them all for their efforts; we will shortly hear from some of the committee’s members, covering different aspects of the report. Although we welcome Anne-Marie Trevelyan’s recent undertaking on greater involvement prior to the setting of objectives going forward, I fear that we are now too late to influence these particular negotiations one iota. I hope that, in future, the Government take soundings from us and our opposite numbers in the Commons so that, having taken back control—the noble Lords, Lord Hannan and Lord Frost, have often spoken of this—that control really will go to Parliament, not simply to the Executive. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I thank all those who have spoken in the debate. I thank them for their tributes to the work done, needless to say, not by myself but by our staff and my fellow committee members, some of whom we have heard from today: the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Lansley and Lord Udny-Lister. I thank the anorak, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, who managed to find supplementary bits, particularly about trade diversion, which is really important.

I thank the Minister for his response. We will take up the issue of a policy with whoever will be the new Secretary of State, and I thank all the speakers who have supported that today. It is really important, particularly hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and others. There has been support for not just that wider policy but the role of Parliament in it.

I was slightly worried by the noble Lords, Lord Frost and Lord Hannan, being worried about opening doors to domestic lobbies. I thought democracy was all about hearing from consumers, business and the DAs, so I was slightly surprised, but I think the tone was very supportive of that.

The Committee will be pleased to know that I am not going to go through the issues that were covered. They were wide-ranging and all were serious, whether it was legal and professional services, GIs, human rights, as raised by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lords, Lord Hussain and Lord Balfe, labour rights and gender, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, my noble friend Lord McNicol and others, or the environment—an interesting point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, was that there could be opportunities for helping India move on this, as well as the challenges that we must ensure we do something about.

There were a variety of views on ISDS, which is something we need to discuss with the Government. I think there is clarity, even from the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, who has issues with it, that some independent arbitration is necessary to give people confidence, but without it being potentially used by those who have a different agenda from what it was meant to be for. I hope the Government will come up with something that we can all support.

I shall say two things to close. First, on Ukraine, this seems absolutely pertinent to the view that we are all pointing to. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Kerr—he always gets the best phrases—who said that you cannot red-line trade; it is part of our global world relations and at the moment Ukraine is central to that. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, may not quite have agreed, but I think the rest of us felt that it was the exemplar, if you like, of how we must see trade as both a tool and a part of our wider relations.

Secondly, my noble friend Lord McNicol reminded us that, just as India celebrated 75 years of independence, it overtook the UK as the world’s fifth-largest economy. The noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, said that it will move towards being the third-largest within 20 years. This is clearly a market that is not just of potential interest to us but important in its own right. It is a major economy, but it is not perfect, as noble Lords have said. The challenge is to make sure we have a deal that is good for business, good for consumers, good for workers and good for UK plc, but also good for India and the global economy. I hope we can work with the Government to move towards that.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 21st July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister is the Prime Minister and the Queen’s principal adviser. It is for the Prime Minister of the day to advise the sovereign on appointments to your Lordships’ House. I observe that, were there to be a resignation honours list—these things are all speculative—it is highly unlikely that people in other parties would be on it.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Burns, has said about the numbers, given that the Conservatives already outnumber the joint Opposition. There is a likelihood that Labour will form the next Government. That would offer two choice: either we have to do exactly the same and stuff this place to get the business through—which is not in the interests of this House—or there would be a major and rather dramatic cull of the sort that might not support the work of this House or our democratic function. Can the Minister take back the very serious implications of what will happen if the continuing dominance of the present Government outweighs the Opposition to the extent that they do at the moment?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I did not notice that dominance in the massive number of defeats suffered by the Government in your Lordships’ House in the last Session. However, the noble Baroness, whose wisdom and experience I always heed, makes an important point: your Lordships’ House is a House that advises and has the capacity to ask the other House to think again; its conduct must be based on restraint and, above all, a good understanding across the Front Benches between Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition and the Government of the time. Historically, this was founded in the arrangement known as the Salisbury/Addison convention. I hope that we will continue to heed that doctrine, whoever is in office.

Restoration and Renewal: Location of House of Lords Chamber

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 16th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I could not possibly comment on that. The Secretary of State obviously has a standing in DLUHC in the sense that the QEII Centre is an executive agency for which DLUHC is responsible. No doubt he was addressing the matter from that perspective.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister really does have to speak on behalf of the whole Government. It was a government letter so I do not think he can wriggle out of it like that. These are really important constitutional issues. The Queen opens Parliament, and she is not allowed into the Commons; she does it from here but with the Commoners present to hear her statement. I am quite sure those issues have to be high up in the Government’s mind as well as this House’s mind. We also need Ministers by us. I do not know whether they were all planning to stay in London so that they could not answer our questions. From their way of dealing with this, maybe that is exactly the plan.

[Lord True (Con)]

No—I take it as the highest duty that I have to come before your Lordships and answer questions and explain things. I repeat: decisions on how to proceed in this are a matter for Parliament, and the Government do not wish to prejudge Parliament’s decisions on it. However, following what was said by the noble Baroness, whom I greatly respect, I say that it makes sense for government and Parliament to work together to support the decisions of Parliament on this matter and, yes, secure outcomes that deliver for the public and taxpayers.

Lobbying of Ministers

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, whom I respect greatly and who has been in my office a number of times advocating for causes in which he believes, makes some exaggerated charges. It is extremely dangerous to peddle around the view that there is endemic corruption in politics in this country, whoever is in office.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the problems is that, as the Minister said, the register is of consultant lobbyists only. It does not include in-house lobbyists; all the big firms have in-house lobbyists. Is it not time that we made that register a register of all lobbyists, not just consultants?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, when the register was introduced by a Conservative Government, other propositions were put forward. At the time we felt that widening the scope could place a significant burden on charities and so on. However, we are conducting post-legislative scrutiny of the lobbying legislation. That has obviously been affected by the progress of Covid, but the point the noble Baroness and others make will be taken into consideration.

Elections Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

It is nice, while welcoming that I follow the noble Earl, Lord Leicester, to disagree with everything he has said, including that he hopes the noble Lord, Lord Moore, who he so enjoyed, will speak more. As a historian, although I have to say not of his eminence, I am slightly worried that, if the noble Lord speaks many more times, we will not get more books out of him. I ask that he keeps a balance, because we like his writings as well.

Much has been made of what I think are the completely unnecessary and indeed harmful mandatory requirements for ID at polling stations. Worse, as we have heard, is that this stands alongside the ability of expats, perhaps out of this country for 20 or 30 years, to vote by post with absolutely no check that they are alive or that they ever lived, worked or went to school here, or anything else. We will not even check that they are not in prison at the time; our own citizens who live here and are in prison are not given the vote, but these people will be. We are talking of people who do not live here or pay their taxes here—this really is representation without taxation. They do not depend on our schools, our health services, our roads, our police, our universities or anything that our taxes and our Government are responsible for but over which they would now be given a vote—even those, as we have heard, who may have no intention of returning here at any time.

It is true that other nations sometimes permit their nationals to vote, but they usually get them to do so at the embassy here; we have often seen them at election time turning up to vote. In fact, to retain your vote in America, you also have to be liable for American tax. So what we are doing is quite exceptional. We are offering those people a vote with no checks, and not even requiring them to do jury service, at a time when 16 and 17 year-olds, whose whole future is in the hands of the Government, still get no vote in elections.

Worse still, these expats will become permitted donors—that is, they can give virtually unlimited amounts of money, with no checks on its provenance, to UK political parties, as the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and my noble friend Lord Grocott have spoken about. I wonder which political party might be the beneficiary of some fairly opaque offshore money from long-exiled Britons—answers on a postcard, please. We should be reducing, not increasing, overseas donations to our political parties. These sorts of donations, even if declared, will tell us nothing about the people involved, who will have contributed nothing to our civic political life or paid any taxes if they are such long-term non-residents.

So why does the Tory party want to add them to the electoral roll? I will wager that it is not for their votes but for their donations. Indeed, despite my putting down a number of Questions, the Government have been unable to tell me how many of those expats currently able to vote have done so—and if the Government do not know, they probably do not care. It is getting some long-term non-residents into the permitted-donor category that is behind this move. The noble Lord, Lord True, is an honourable man, so if I am wrong and this really is in order to allow our wonderful Labour member in Rome, Harry Shindler—who the Government normally cite every time we talk about this—to vote, the Government will accept the amendment to restrict donations to people who are both on the electoral roll and resident in this country. If the Government refuse to accept the amendment, we will know it is all about enabling wealthy non-residents to fund a British political party. Indeed, at Prime Minister’s Questions today, the Prime Minister reasserted that money would be taken only from those on the electoral register—which is why he is extending enormously the number of expats who can now go on to the register.

We have been reading a lot about how the Conservatives like taking rather large bundles of dosh from money that has originated abroad. The wife of a former Putin finance Minister apparently paid £160,000 for a game of tennis with Boris Johnson. I gather that she is the most generous ever female donor to a political party—and I thought women had good political sense. We know there are many such examples of money from somewhat dubious sources finding its way into, I am afraid, the Conservatives’ coffers. While the Bill is about UK nationals, who is to say that those living abroad may not assist in facilitating such generosity, given the absolute lack of checks? It will be impossible to be sure that they ever lived here, because we do not have records going back over 30 years and no system is being set up to undertake such due diligence. So we risk disenfranchising some people with ID checks while giving the vote to people who do not live here, pay taxes here or have any ambition to return here.

This Bill is not good for democracy. I do not think it is good for the Conservative Party either, because if it gets more donations this way, it will become public, and that will not be in its interests.

House of Lords: Appointments

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think the Greens are very capable of making their voice heard in your Lordships’ House.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has twice referred to the number of defeats. There is no point in having a second Chamber if we always agree with the first Chamber. The whole point is that we have different views here. We ask the other House to think again. But sort of threatening the numbers because we defeat something that the Government have done and ask them to think again is surely not the right way to consider the role of this House.