Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Main Page: Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Labour - Life peer)Consumer Rights Bill
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts“( ) Where the consumer is required to pay for a service via a third party as part of another contract, for the purposes of assessing whether the charges they are required to pay are reasonable, they will have a right to the full details of any contract including all charges and costs to which they are contributing.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 50A is about transparency of charges. This is something we know that the Government support. They are very much in favour of transparency, particularly given their very welcome provision elsewhere in the Bill to make letting agents disclose their charges. However, other groups of home owners and tenants have a similar need to know what they are being asked to pay, whether it is insurance in respect of a holiday or an add-on to a main product. I hope that the example I am about to give will help the Minister to respond to the amendment. It concerns leasehold management where there is leasehold ownership of a block of flats and either the managing agent or the ground landlord takes out an insurance policy or has building work done, but then, because of the contract, the leaseholders have to pay up although they are not shown the details of the cover, if it is insurance, or, indeed, of the price and bids for the work if it is, for example, building or gardening. These details are available to the freeholder, and probably to the managing agent, but not to the leaseholder. When they ask for this, the insurance company or, indeed, the contractor in the case of buildings often says that their agreement is with the freeholder and therefore they will not give the leaseholder the information, even though the leaseholder is paying.
We have had an example of this from my colleague in the other place. It will be obvious who it is when I say that this was about some leaseholders in Walthamstow. They managed to get their hands on their insurance policy and discovered that there was an extra premium covering terrorism. We were slightly surprised that Walthamstow should be high on that agenda. When they inquired, they discovered that it was because a newspaper article had once reported that somebody involved in a plot to blow up a plane lived in the area. That may be an extreme example but I think that we all know of cases where the person who actually pays is not the contractor or is not the person who is party to the contract; they have to pay via a different contract. Therefore, Amendment 50A says basically that when somebody has to pay via a third party, they should have the right to obtain the information relating to the charge to which they are contributing. I beg to move.
Baroness Jolly (LD)
My Lords, like other noble Lords, I, too, have looked carefully at the discussions on this issue which took place in the other place and I am aware of the circumstances and purpose which has given rise to the amendment. As I understand it, the purpose of the amendment is to assist leaseholders in establishing whether the insurance cover and the contributions paid towards the insurance premium are reasonable. I entirely agree that transparency is important and that leaseholders should have access to information about insurance and, indeed, other service charges.
Having carefully considered the amendment, its purpose and effect, I am happy to reassure noble Lords that the law already provides leaseholders with the right to obtain the information that this amendment seeks to provide. Leaseholders contributing towards the cost of building insurance and service charges more generally have for some years had the right to access and obtain copies of this information. This includes being able to request in writing a copy of the insurance policy or the landlord/managing agent providing reasonable facilities to inspect the policy and all other supporting documents, for example. This is in addition to the ability to request a summary of service charges in general, which would include the costs of insurance, and to inspect the invoices, receipts and other supporting documents that make up the costs.
If a landlord or, indeed, a managing agent on their behalf, fails to comply with a request for information without reasonable excuse, they commit a summary offence, which is subject on conviction to a level 4 fine on the standard scale of up to £2,500. Ultimately, as noble Lords will be aware, leaseholders can apply to the First-tier Tribunal Property Chamber for a determination about the reasonableness of the costs of insurance that they contribute towards and other service charge payments. Grounds could include, for example, that the level or type of insurance is not appropriate, in addition to the reasonableness of the premium.
It is, of course, in the interests of parties to try to resolve concerns or disputes amicably, by discussion or alternative dispute resolution where possible, before resorting to the tribunal system. Noble Lords will also be aware of the requirement for letting and managing agents now to belong to one of three redress schemes approved by the Government. This requirement came into force on 1 October 2014, and is something that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, inspired through the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act. It is also important that we avoid creating a situation in which changes to legislation result in confusion or doubt about how existing legislation operates, or in weakening that legislation. This could potentially act to the detriment of the very leaseholders whose interests noble Lords are looking out for.
Guidance about leaseholders’ rights, including acquiring information about insurance, can be found on the GOV.UK website. Free, independent, initial legal advice about leasehold law and the rights available, including accessing information is also available from the government-sponsored body, the Leasehold Advisory Service. I hope, therefore, that I have been able to reassure the Committee that the law already provides leaseholders with the protections and rights the amendment seeks to introduce, and on why the Government are not convinced that noble Lords’ amendments will achieve their goals. For those reasons and the reassurance I have provided, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I particularly thank the Government for giving serious consideration to this. It is interesting that the Minister said, quite rightly, that we do not want conflicting laws. Part of the problem is that what she quoted about the right of leaseholders to take the freeholder to the leasehold tribunal to get this information does not enable them to get it from the insurance company. It seems to be the insurance companies that do not seem to know that they should be providing residents with information on their cover. Residents can obviously get a copy of the insurance but it will not cover all these small points. What we were trying to write into the Act was to make sure that everyone knows their responsibility, including insurance companies, who should not wriggle out of giving this information. I think that the noble Baroness is going to give me some more helpful comments.
Baroness Jolly
Certainly. The landlord or freeholder has to get the information from the insurer in the first place in order to show it to the resident.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I thank the noble Baroness for that clarification. The point was that leaseholders were hoping to get the information directly from the insurer because that is where their money went. I will withdraw the amendment because there is another issue that we shall come to about the amount of risk that is covered. That is for the next amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) Where the consumer is being supplied with a financial service, the consumer shall be provided with such information as shall enable them to know the risks that were taken into account in calculating the applicable premium and the profit that either—
(a) the financial services company, or(b) the financial broker,anticipates to make on that premium if there is no claim on the policy.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 50D in this group. Amendment 50B does what all good financial service providers should, which is to help people to understand risk so that they can make an informed choice about the sort of product to buy and the sort of price that is worth paying. The amendment very much covers financial products such as annuities, where consumers are really buying blind as very often providers fail to reveal the risks covered or their service charge. It is bundled up in one price, without knowing the degree of risk that is covered or, indeed, the service charge being taken by the provider. So consumers are presented with an insurance quote for terrorism, in the example just given, but that may not explain the underlying risk that it has been assessed that they face and therefore need to be covered for, and they have no way in which to find out why that quote comes to be. Is the risk associated with where they live, underneath a plane that might drop, or is it based on their life expectancy or assumptions about future market movements—or, as we have seen, some change in the likelihood of flooding, terrorism or anything else? In other words, the underlying risk is not obvious.
The amendment tries to get greater clarity, in addition to the financial market, about life annuities and things like that, and car insurance. The Competition Commission in 2013 reckoned that car insurance was not working well for consumers, as they have very little information about the add-on to insurance products, such as replacement cars in the event of an accident. It is impossible to know how much that cover is worth when it is in with your car insurance.
In the Commons, the Minister said:
“The amendment is unnecessary because the Financial Conduct Authority’s conduct of business rules already cover the provision of pre-contract information”,
and claimed that,
“the requirement to disclose risk information … could have an adverse impact on the insurance market”.—[Official Report, Commons, Consumer Rights Public Bill Committee, 4/3/14; col. 428.]
According to the Government, it would require insurers to disclose their business model and confuse consumers, because companies use different models to calculate risk. What it means is that the degree of risk that the insurance company thinks it faces, and therefore why the charge should be there, is absolutely not explained to customers or clients.
The Minister also cited an apparent absence of demand for consumers to know how their premiums are calculated. I consider that that somewhat underestimates people’s attitude for information. As soon as they understand the importance of it, and therefore the effect that it has on the price and how much they are willing to pay, they may understand more. If young drivers, who get a very high premium, are told that that is because so many young people drive at night, they may be able to say, “I promise not to drive my car at night—could I have a lower insurance premium?” We know that exactly that has happened, but it took that degree of knowledge for young drivers—admittedly, represented more as a group—to be able to negotiate a different sort of insurance once they knew the underlying risks for which the insurance company was charging them more.
Transparency from providers to consumers should be one of the things that we try to get. It is particularly important with car insurance because it is a captive market—we all have to have it. I am assured that that means 26 million cars, which sounds like rich pickings for any industry. It is not a very competitive industry, in that only four companies account for half the £13 billion market. So premiums are high, and it is an example of where groups of consumers, if they understand more about their risk, might be able to negotiate a better deal. It is probable that everyone in this Room has managed to lower their car insurance premium by phoning up and complaining. You can usually get your car insurance reduced, which tends to suggest that it is not a very competitive market.
We will come on to another issue, which is that the add-ons often cover things like legal expenses, but again we are not told what the real degree of risk is and therefore it is impossible to know whether they are worth buying or whether it would be better to cover oneself through the house insurance premium for all legal costs rather than just those for the car. Without this knowledge, it is very difficult to shop around.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)
My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the intention behind Amendment 50B. It seeks to help consumers get a better deal from their insurers through the provision of more information, which would help them to make an informed choice. I am glad that we are discussing the issue today. But I am equally concerned that the amendment could lead to customer confusion and might even hamper competition in the insurance market, which ultimately is not in the interest of consumers. I shall first address the requirement under the amendment to disclose risks taken into account when setting insurance premiums. An example of that would be the age of a driver, as has been mentioned.
The idea of equipping the consumer to make informed choices is in my view an admirable one, but mandating the provision of complex information would be likely to result in the opposite outcome. A complex algorithm would not help the consumer and competition could be affected. In my experience, there is good practice out there. As it happens, only yesterday I was renewing my motor insurance on my mobile phone, which kept giving up on me, so I had to ring in again. However, in the end I did succeed. It was actually quite interesting because I had a discussion about some of the options. I asked, “If I take one of my sons off the insurance, will it be cheaper?” and so on. They were very clear and also went through extra things that one might want to purchase but had no obligation to do so. Those were the sorts of thing that the noble Baroness mentioned, such as legal expenses or a replacement car.
As we know, it is important that consumers—who are busy and not always financially literate—take in the key information needed to decide whether to buy an insurance product. To overload them with more information can put them off reading any of it at all. There appears to be little appetite from consumers to understand the complexities of how premiums are arrived at. We know that consumers concentrate on price. A key part of price competition comes from the respective capabilities of insurers to assess risk. Asking insurers to disclose these assessments could harm competition as it would be tantamount to giving away the secrets of an insurer’s business model. I think that that was the argument discussed in the other place. Further, the price of premiums could increase as a result of this amendment as it imposes an additional cost burden on insurers to provide a breakdown of detailed premiums—which inevitably will be passed on to consumers. This cost burden could damage an industry that employs 320,000 people in the United Kingdom.
The amendment also has a requirement to disclose profit relating to a policy where no claim has been made. Information about expected profit if there is no claim on a policy can be only speculative. Insurance works by pooling risks together—that is the whole principle of it. If no claim has been made on a policy, this does not necessarily mean that an insurer makes a profit on that policy. I also highlight that the Financial Conduct Authority’s conduct of business rules already cover the provision of pre-contractual information by insurers—that is, what you are told before signing up—so creating a separate set of rules in this area is unnecessary.
The Financial Conduct Authority’s General Insurance Add-ons Market Study highlighted that there is currently no consistent or common method for measuring the value of these products, and proposed that insurers should publish claims ratios to increase transparency and focus on value. This would be an aggregate: how much they pay out relative to income for the whole fund. The FCA has not yet concluded that work so it is important that we allow the regulator space to draw its conclusions before taking additional action. Of course, it has powers to add or amend its rules—in this case, the Insurance: Conduct of Business Sourcebook.
Turning to Amendment 50D, I am again concerned about the risk of adverse consequences for consumers and about the potential conflicts with existing rules on claims handling set by the FCA. I will explain my concerns by going back to the fundamental nature of some insurance claims. For example, as the noble Baroness mentioned, property insurance claims for riot or flood damage can take a long time to resolve simply because of the scale and nature of the damage. A flooded property can take many months to dry out and it is vital that the property is dry before any renovation takes place. In these cases, to assist the claimant through a period and alleviate hardship, interim payments and temporary accommodation are usually paid immediately.
Instead of helping consumers, the amendment could have perverse effects. It could encourage insurers to rush people back into their homes and close the claim just to be within the law rather than because it is the best outcome for the customer. I am sure that that is not the noble Baroness’s intention but that is a risk, as was suggested in the other place—and one that I am very keen to avoid in this important piece of legislation. Further, I am particularly mindful that artificial deadlines would put a strain on customers to quickly evidence the loss to validate their claims, and might even encourage what could be seen afterwards as fraud.
I know from experience that processing and verification can take some time. I also know that insurers, in general, take their obligations very seriously. Insurance is an important industry and pays out £452 million every day. Good insurers earn loyalty and a good reputation which allows their business to flourish and grow.
I think it is also relevant to set out how the Government have responded to recent flooding in the UK. To ensure that home insurance is affordable for 350,000 properties at highest flood risk the Government have worked with the industry to create Flood Re. We debated this during the passage of the Water Bill. When up and running in 2015, Flood Re will effectively limit the amount that most UK households at the highest flood risk will pay for flood insurance. We have also announced record levels of government investment in managing flood risk.
Still on the subject of delays, the insurance industry complies with all-encompassing consumer protection and redress rules set down by the FCA which in many cases exceed the measures proposed in the Bill. The FCA’s Conduct of Business Sourcebook, which I have already mentioned, requires that insurers settle claims promptly once settlement terms are agreed. The FCA has recently undertaken work on household claims in particular. This year, it conducted a review which concluded that there was no evidence of insurers deliberately delaying settlement. Where things go wrong, as they unfortunately occasionally do, consumers have the right to complain to their insurer and can also go to the Financial Ombudsman Service. A ruling made by the service is binding on the financial service provider.
We have discussed a very serious matter. I feel we have the balance right in this Bill, for all the reasons I have outlined, and I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
The Minister clearly needs some advice about topping up her phone battery if she is going to be renewing her insurance that way. We trust she got it through all right.
I am delighted that the insurance industry is paying out £452 million a day. We do not know how much it is getting in per day, which from the point of view of the consumer is the interesting figure. I was trying to multiply 452 by 365, but I did not manage to do it. However, that is the issue. If you get a no claim bonus for not having made a claim in the previous year, which I hope the Minister got, the real issue is that you have no idea of its value. In other words, you do not know how much the insurer has saved by the fact that you have not claimed.
I think I made it clear, after what was said in the Commons, that we are not saying that this will be an artificial deadline. The amendment states only that the fact that someone has had to move out of their primary accommodation can be taken into account when determining the timeframe. We were not saying that it was the determinant.
On Amendment 50B, the issue is that we want consumers to shop around. We want them to have the details to be able to judge price, and without some of the underlying assumptions it is hard to do that. I hope we can find a way of strengthening the consumer in this way, whether through the FCA or this Bill, but the FCA’s responsibilities are wider than just consumers whereas this Bill has consumers at its heart.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
We have consumers at our heart in relation to this Bill and many other pieces of legislation, but there has to be a balance. I am sure we agree that if you put up costs inappropriately, the consumer is the loser because costs tend to be passed on in higher prices. We have to work together to find the right balance.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I certainly agree with that, but I am not always convinced that having better-informed consumers leads to higher prices. That may be for another discussion. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(3A) Where the conduct of the service can be reasonably considered to lead to a risk to the personal safety of the consumer, the consumer has a right to—
(a) a full refund of the cost of the contract, and(b) any additional fees associated with the service.(3B) Any action taken under subsection (3A) will not prevent the consumer from seeking other remedies or further compensation for the consequences of this installation.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I am feeling very proud as I managed to renew my passport online and got it from the Passport Office in, I think, 48 hours. I thank the Passport Office for being able to do that online and for its incredible efficiency.
In moving Amendment 50F, which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stevenson, I will speak also to Amendments 50H and 50J. These concern issues that we addressed when we discussed the Bill’s provisions in relation to goods. We are worried about consumers whose personal safety is at risk due to the quality of workmanship in their house. They should not have to have the same people back to make a first attempt at repairing whatever they have botched before being able to ask for a refund of their money and any associated costs. The importance of the amendment will be clear to all consumers.
A trading standards representative gave written evidence to the Public Bill Committee in the other place that the remedy in the Bill was insufficient where dangerous service was involved. In these circumstances consumers should have the right to end the service and get their money back. At present, the Bill enables consumers who find that a service is not undertaken with reasonable skill and care—a normal service, if you like—to have that service undertaken again and to get their money back or obtain a price reduction only if the repeat service does not work. These amendments address the problem whereby a consumer’s personal safety is at risk and would allow them to move straight to obtaining a refund rather than risk their safety any further by having to have a repeat performance by an incompetent or careless supplier.
On a previous occasion we gave the example of a gas fitter who services a boiler and causes a leak or a builder who knocks down the very wall that he is meant to be building. These may appear extreme cases but, sadly, we know that they happen and we know that we would not want such tradesmen back in our houses. Therefore, we would like a consumer to be able to obtain a refund and employ another company in these circumstances without first having to have the same company attempt to repair the damage.
I know that the Government have looked at these measures in another place and feel that they are not necessary as the consumer will retain access to a common-law remedy for damages. The Bill sets out clear remedies and courses of action but for consumers to have to argue with the tradesperson in court in order to solve this problem does not seem to us a clever way forward, in addition to all the expensive legal action that is bound to be involved. This amendment would give clarity and keep these issues out of court. I beg to move.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I will speak in support of this amendment. I declare a personal interest in this matter. I appreciate that this Committee has turned into an opportunity for all of us to explain our recent experiences of various sorts, but I suspect that this is one of the most recent experiences. Having had a series of problems with a boiler installed in my home, we called out—for the second time in this instance—a contractor to come to try to put it right. Last Tuesday evening I got home and, despite a slight cold, detected what I took to be a smell of gas. We summoned the appropriate people, who came with their little sniffer things, and so on, and declared that whoever had allegedly repaired this boiler and the flues had left it in a state whereby not only was there a serious gas leak but there was a serious leak of carbon monoxide. Fortunately, the boiler is in a basement area, although presumably it could have become an excitingly combustible place. However, the reality was that it had been left in a seriously dangerous situation.
After I had spent some time swearing at the contractors—and I am tempted to use parliamentary privilege and name them, so that residents of north London are warned of these people—the offer was made that they should come to put it right. They were shocked, as I was, that they might have left this in a dangerous situation. My immediate reaction, which remains my reaction, despite the fact that we have no gas at all in the house, because the gas board has been in and disconnected everything for the sake of safety, was that these were the last people whom I would like to come in and rectify the problem. Indeed, I notice that the contractor has e-mailed and phoned me today, clearly because he wants to be paid for the work that was originally done.
This is precisely one of those areas where the consumer needs a very clear legal position. I had not actually looked at my noble friend’s amendment until today, but this is exactly what is required under these circumstances. I wish that this could be made retrospective and that I would simply be able to point to Section 54 of the Consumer Rights Act, as it would then be, and say, “Hang on, there’s no question that we’re having a full refund of the cost and any additional fees associated with bringing somebody else in”. That is what most sensible people would expect. If the Government are serious about giving the consumer sensible rights, they should provide that in the Bill.
Baroness Jolly
I will come back to the noble Baroness with chapter and verse on the remedies, but they will not be available until the Bill has been passed.
The remedies consumers retain under common law are the right to damages or, in some cases, the right to treat the contract as at an end, rather than being limited to the statutory remedies in the Bill, as long as they do not claim for the same loss twice. I am sure that no noble Lord would do that.
I recognise that consumers and traders will not want to go to court in most cases. That can, in some cases, be expensive and time-consuming. However, knowing that they retain the right to go to court is intended to empower the consumer to ask for their money back. It should also encourage the trader to agree with the consumer to do this. The consumer’s rights under this chapter of the Bill are not the only legislation ensuring that services are performed safely. For example, building regulations require that building work does not compromise the safety of people in and around the building.
Many service providers rely on their reputation and word-of-mouth recommendations. If they have made a mistake, they will want the opportunity to return to fix it. It would not be fair on those traders to take away that opportunity. Many consumers would also want the trader to rectify a problem with a service rather than have the inconvenience of finding another provider. There is also nothing to stop the trader volunteering to give the consumer a price reduction without a re-performance. The trader and the consumer are free to come to an arrangement separate to the statutory remedies in the Bill. Reputable traders will negotiate a remedy with the consumer, taking into account what the consumer has asked for. Given that consumers will be able to access compensation where re-performance is not desired and that our consultation showed broad support for our approach, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, asked a wonderful question. It was short and acute and went to the heart of the issue because the other remedies, the common-law remedies, are expensive and take a long time and any trader will know that no one is going to take them to court for £200 or £300—even my good and noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey. I am tempted to offer to come and help.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Is this on the public record, because I am still in discussion with the trader concerned?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I take my noble friend’s point about making this retrospective.
There is a serious issue here. The consultation at the beginning may not have thrown this up because when any of us respond to consultations we have not always thought about all the implications and what could happen and that there might be something dangerous. I urge the Government not to rely too much on consultation on what was a big Bill at the time. No one actually thought about this.
There are a number of issues. The major one is that on quite an important issue it reverts to the old way, which is to go to court, and that does not suit consumers. I do not think it is very good for court expenses or for the trader. Just because the consumer has a right to a refund and to find another trader, it does not mean that they will. The Minister said that some consumers will want the same trader back because they do not want to look for another one. That is fine. Nothing will stop them doing that. The amendment does not require the consumer to have a refund instead of having the old trader back. It states that they should not have to go through one repair before they have their money back.
As I think we said when we raised this and the other safety issues at an earlier stage, this is something we will need to come back to because if consumer rights do not provide the basics such as keeping consumers safe, there is something missing. We will have to think about how we can pursue this on Report. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Services delivered on behalf of a commissioning bodyServices delivered on behalf of a commissioning body
(1) In this section “commissioning body” means a government department, local authority in England or other public body.
(2) Where a commissioning body commissions another person to deliver a service to a consumer, the contract between the commissioning body and the provider of the commissioned service must include—
(a) a requirement for the provider of the commissioned service to operate a complaints procedure;(b) provision for reporting any complaints to the commissioning body; and(c) a requirement for the provider of the service to provide information about the complaints procedure to the consumer.(3) The information required by subsection (2)(c) must include—
(a) an explanation that the complaint can be referred to the commissioning body;(b) where the commissioning body is named in Schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967, an explanation that the complaint can be referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration; (c) where the commissioning body is named in section 25 of the Local Government Act 1974, an explanation that the complaint can be referred to the Commission for Local Administration in England.”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I move Amendment 50K in this group on behalf of my noble friend Lord Stevenson and I will speak to Amendments 50M and 105A. This is an important and rather different set of amendments. Amendment 50K was tabled because of the increasing use of private or voluntary sector bodies to deliver services that historically were carried out by central or local government. In the UK, we have a long-standing and highly regarded system of ombudsmen for such services—for local or national government—whether provided by the NHS or by local councils, with such ombudsmen being free, independent and easily accessible. Indeed, it is one of the many advantages that users of local government services have, including recipients of social care. Where they have a complaint about any service, they can at a final stage take that to the independent Local Government Ombudsman, who adjudicates on the matter and can award redress if the service was found not to be up to standard. However, it is not clear to everybody whether users of contracted-out or commissioned services have equal access to the relevant ombudsman, so the amendment seeks to clarify this, not least to mandate clear signposting to first-tier complaints systems as well as to the ombudsmen.
There are wider questions about the redress landscape, which the Public Administration Select Committee has described and which Oliver Letwin, I understand, is now about to review. There are issues about the way things work now—for example, with, we hope, increasing and better co-ordination between hospitals and social care and a seamless move between the two. Interestingly enough, if there is a problem on the health side, it goes to one ombudsman, whereas if it is on the social care side, it goes to a completely different ombudsman. On the handover between the two, it can be difficult to know who was at fault. Even if you can identify that, you then have to find which ombudsman is the appropriate one. Luckily—I hope that some people in the Room will excuse me for saying this—both those ombudsmen are women, so they tend to get together and sort it out, but of course that will not always be the case with such organisations. The Committee will understand the problem.
This amendment does not try to solve the particular problem of overlap, but it deals with situations where a public authority contracts out work to a private provider. It aims to ensure that the user still has a clear pathway to the relevant ombudsman. Given that many public services are delivered these days through a range of bodies, it is hard for the consumer to follow the chain of accountability and to know where to turn if a service lets them down. Indeed, people do not always realise that if a local council has contracted out, it is still accountable, even though it may be another organisation that is delivering the service on the council’s behalf. Whoever is delivering publicly funded services, we believe that users should have access to clear, effective complaints processes, as well as the reassurance that in the final analysis they could take their complaint to an independent ombudsman.
Amendment 50K would ensure that the contract between the commissioning authority and the provider requires a proper complaints procedure, in addition to users knowing that they can refer their concern back to the local authority and then to the ombudsman. At the moment, councils always signpost complainants to the Local Government Ombudsman, but this amendment would ensure that all users of public services—we are particularly talking about social care—are equally well informed.
A brief example from the Local Government Ombudsman was where it had to remind councils that they remain responsible for the actions of, for example, care homes with which they work. The LGO undertook an investigation into Merton Council, which was responsible for a contracted private home. That home asked the family of an elderly resident to pay a top-up fee, but in fact the home had no right to that fee. The family happened to contact the council about where the payment should go and it was only then that it came to light that they were not due to pay the fee because the council had paid everything and the care home was not entitled to any more money. Interestingly, that complaint ended up in the right place because it had come to the notice of the local authority. However, in her findings, the Local Government Ombudsman, Dr Jane Martin, found against the local authority, reminding it that the law is clear: the actions of the care provider shall be treated as actions on or on behalf of the council, so the council was responsible for the care home seeking to extract funding from the family. She went on to warn other councils that they are responsible for any contracted activities that are provided. Clearly, not all councils and not all care homes know that and, even more obviously, not all users know it. We want public providers to ensure that all users are clear about their right to go to the independent ombudsman.
In the case of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, the health service is already required to signpost patients to the ombudsman. However, that is not the case for government departments, agencies or other bodies, such as the Electoral Commission, the Charity Commission and Monitor, against which complaints can be taken to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. If even those bodies do not know, certainly anyone they contract to do their work will not know either. An individual consumer could be applying to find out something from the Charity Commission and have a complaint, but of course they would not be signposted on. If they were involved in any payment, which they could be if it was for a service, they should be covered by this Bill.
The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman knows that, where signposting is inadequate, there is a strange absence of complaints. Research undertaken in 2012 showed that almost half of the inquirers said that they had not been informed about the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman by the service provider. It is interesting to note that the remit of ombudsmen allows them to follow the public pound and therefore review the actions of bodies acting on behalf of the relevant public bodies, but few citizens know that. Under this Bill, where there is any sort of consideration or payment, as there could well be in respect of a day centre or for other services, we want to ensure that people are absolutely clear about their right to go to an ombudsman.
Amendment 50M speaks for itself. It asks the Government to look at how consumers who use contracted-out or commissioned public services are going to get a better deal along the lines provided for in the Bill. The chapter on services is pretty clear. When we have our windows cleaned or a kitchen installed, as we discussed last week, we know our rights. We know from earlier discussions that the Bill is also going to cover public services where there is an element of payment. We will be interested to know how the users of publicly funded but privately provided services will have their rights under this Bill enforced, as well as what independent advice they might be given to help them in this regard.
Finally, Amendment 105A would require statutory regulators to ensure that they develop proper user or consumer representation on their boards, as well as reviewing annually the consumer experience of the industry, including whether they are sufficiently well represented and listened to so that their rights under this and other legislation are protected.
Regulators exist in exactly those industries where the consumer cannot on their own behalf get a fair deal because the industries are effectively monopolies, or because the nature of the service is so complicated and specialised, as in the law, that clients are in no position to evaluate it or shop around, or because it is an essential service, or for some other market failure. Despite this, not all regulators put the consumer, in whose interest they are meant to work, first—sometimes because of industry capture or sometimes because they fail to see the consumer impact as they work at such a helicopter level. However, it is usually because they do not embed the end-users’ views into their decision-making. They decide policy without researching the consumer’s experience or views. They simply do not understand the ordinary person who pays the bill. This amendment would embed the consumer voice into the regulators’ governance, where it should have been from the start. I beg to move.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
My Lords, the amendment raises an interesting question, which I thought I should take the opportunity of posing to the Minister. A cursory glance at Hansard from the other place suggests that the Government’s intention is that consumer rights in this legislation should apply to consumers of public services as well as private services, which is what the amendment addresses. The question that arises refers back to the last time I attended this Committee, when we were discussing consumers’ rights in the context of digital.
With normal goods, one has the right to return them and seek a refund or replacement. I am intrigued as to how that would work with some public services. For example, does this apply to the licence fee? If I do not like what I consumed on my television, do I have the right to a refund or replacement? Of course not, but how does that work in the context of the Bill? If I have paid tuition fees and I am not satisfied with the nature of the service that I receive from a university— I hazard a guess that quite a few students might at times have problems with, for example, the amount of access they have to face-to-face tuition—am I considered, in the context of the Bill, to be a consumer with the same rights as I would have in the private sector? I should be interested to know how that plays out. Or do we, as the amendment suggests, rely on the regulator? In which case, is that all pinned down properly in the Bill?
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate. Some really interesting questions have been posed, not least by the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Whitty. I reassure noble Lords that I will write to all noble Lords who I have not answered by the end of my response and place a copy in the Library.
We all care passionately about the provision of public services. I am sure I do not need to remind noble Lords that our reason for not including improvements to our public services explicitly in the Bill is not that we do not consider them important. They are vital, and I am proud to say that this Government have done much to change and improve public services.
This Bill will benefit all consumers by setting out in one place consumer rights. This Bill will empower consumers. To maintain that clarity and consolidation, we have not included specific provisions for public services in the Bill. When asked in the other place, the Office of Fair Trading said:
“If you want to deal with consumer rights and the public sector, there is probably a different way to go. This is a simplification and consolidation Bill that is trying to ensure that consumer rights are clear and in one place”.—[Official Report, Commons, Consumer Rights Bill Committee, 11/2/14; col. 49.]
While there are no explicit provisions in the Bill on public services, some public services will attract the rights and remedies under the Bill. Services will attract these rights and remedies if they are supplied under a contract between the consumer and a public body. That is the test. This is because the definition of “trader” is wide enough to capture the activities of any government department or local or public authority. Consumers of public services provided under a contract with the provider will therefore benefit from the Bill with clearer rights, clearer remedies and ultimately better outcomes. That is a good thing. We will make it clear in our guidance to consumers and traders that this is the case.
Turning to those public services that are not covered by the provisions in the Bill, let me be very clear that these consumers are nevertheless protected—and in a way that often provides more tailored, specific and appropriate safeguards, designed to fit the particular service. Many of these tailored regimes already incorporate just the sorts of protections that these amendments discuss: independent advocacy, regular reporting and established ombudsman schemes.
Several sectors have well established alternative dispute resolution services. For example, the role of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is to investigate complaints that individuals have been treated unfairly or received poor service from government departments, other public organisations or the NHS in England. The ombudsman’s powers are set out in law and the service is free for everyone. In 2012-13, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman resolved 26,358 inquiries for consumers. In 2012-13, the Local Government Ombudsman responded to more than 90,000 contacts from the public.
We all share the vision of public services provided to a high standard, where consumer feedback and consumer choice work to push up standards. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the issues of signposting to ombudsmen. As my honourable friend Jenny Willott explained in the other place, the Minister for Government Policy, my right honourable friend Oliver Letwin MP, commissioned Robert Gordon to review the ombudsman landscape, thus considering the case for a single public sector ombudsman. He will report to the Minister before Christmas and we are committed to considering his recommendations. It would be premature to take action in this Bill before the review is completed.
I turning to the specific amendments tabled. The first is Amendment 50K. I am sure that all noble Lords are aware of the Open Public Services agenda. It is based on five principles for reform: decentralisation; choice; diversity of provision; fair access; and accountability. To achieve these objectives, we want to ensure that consumers of public services are empowered to raise concerns and that service providers learn from those complaints. In March, the Public Administration Select Committee published a report following its inquiries into complaint handling across government and the role of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. As my right honourable friend the Minister for Government Policy made clear at the time, we agree that the ombudsman can play an important role in improving complaints handling and we are committed to working collaboratively with the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman and other public service ombudsmen to deliver an accessible and effective complaint-handling process from first contact with a service to final resolution by an ombudsman.
There is now a set of choice frameworks covering NHS care, social housing, schools, funded early education and adult social care. These documents clearly set out the choices available to service users, as well as instructions for seeking redress if those choices are not satisfied. To offer clarity to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, these frameworks tell the consumer who is responsible and who to complain to. We are now looking at new digital channels for the public to register complaints about public services. This is in response to the Public Administration Select Committee’s report on complaint handling in the public sector. By way of example, we are working with the Department for Work and Pensions and the Land Registry on initial trials during the autumn.
On independent advocacy, as we said before in Grand Committee, we also prioritise making sure that consumers know their rights. Consumers of public services have access to advice, information and advocacy from government-funded channels such as Citizens Advice or GOV.UK. In addition, other bodies such as Age UK act as consumer advocates, especially for more vulnerable consumers.
Citizens Advice provides much of this advocacy. A spokesman was asked in the other place about including reforms to public services within the Bill. He said:
“I am not sure about that, if I am honest. It is not something that we have thought through sufficiently to get to a yes or no answer to that question. There are other ways of dealing with public sector services problems than a consumer rights Bill”.
When asked the same question, Which? said that,
“there are so many things that could fall within the scope of the Bill or could be added to it, and it could become unwieldy. So it is a question of priorities”.—[Official Report, Commons, Consumer Rights Bill Committee, 11/2/14; col. 7.]
I agree with those views. Public services are indeed important. We are committed to their improvement, but that is ongoing—outside this Bill.
Moving to the regulated sectors and Amendment 105A, it is important that consumer rights in regulated sectors are protected and that they are given sufficient information to make informed decisions. Regulators already have a statutory duty to look after consumer interests and must report annually on how they do this. Also, consumers within the sectors regulated are represented by relevant consumer bodies: for example, the Consumer Council for Water, Passenger Focus and Consumer Futures, which is now part of Citizens Advice.
There is also a lot happening to ensure consumers are able to get the best possible information across the board. In 2012-13, Citizens Advice helped 2.1 million clients through its bureaux with free advice. There were nearly 1 million contacts through its consumer helpline and also 14 million hits to its website. Some 91% of consumers reported that they would use the service again. This service reports to Government twice yearly on its performance against agreed standards.
Noble Lords can therefore feel reassured that regulators indeed do a lot for consumers already. With regard to the provision of advice and information, Citizens Advice reports twice annually on its performance. There is also much being done both by regulators and government to help consumers. Therefore, the amendment proposed is an unnecessary duplication of effort. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments and to withdraw Amendment 50K.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Knight and Lord Whitty for the questions they raised and for their support. The public service issue is really interesting. It is no secret that now that universities have realised that it will affect them, one or two are getting a little jumpy. That shows what a very good Bill we have here. There is an interesting thing between those students who would pay a fee—the word in the Bill is “consideration”—and those who would not, where the latter would not be in as good a position as regards their rights. We will come back to this when we move an amendment on higher education. It might be useful at that stage—I give a bit of notice—to tease out some of those things. There was a lot of interest in this from colleagues around the House, many of them chancellors of universities, who I think have already been in touch with the Minister. Certainly, those of us interested in consumer rights are very happy that it will cover this, but I know that some clarity will be needed.
Working backwards, I am very sorry about the comment on regulators. As someone who chaired one of the consumer panels, was vice-chair of another panel and sat on another, it was not the same as being embedded in and a member of the regulator. Partly, you do not get things until they are more or less in the public domain, by which time of course decision-making is a long way down its route. Actually, it is in getting questions asked at the beginning, and the beginning of the formulation of policy and decision, where we want to embed a real consumer voice.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I think that I have made the point that the difficulty, even with consumer panels, is that they are not included at the beginning of policy development. That is even more the case as regards external bodies such as Citizens Advice, which see something only once it has been published and are therefore always in the negative position of trying to take action afterwards. As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, the whole point is to get the voice of the consumer absolutely embedded into the way in which the regulator defines the problem, what it looks for and how it does its research.
I want to make only one other point in response to the Minister on the issue of signposting to an ombudsman. She mentioned that Robert Gordon is looking at—and I welcome the report he is preparing—the possibility of there being a single ombudsman. The Minister said that it might be premature to require signposting but it seems to me that whatever we come out with, the issue of signposting will still be key.
Baroness Jolly
I think that the noble Baroness may have misheard me. What I actually said was not that it would be premature to signpost but that it would be premature to take action in the Bill before the review was completed.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
While I understand that, the only action that we want is on signposting. If anything were to be commissioned, signposting would have to take place, and whatever Robert Gordon comes out with, that requirement should still be there. Indeed, if there were to be a single ombudsman, there would have to be a new name and, no doubt, a new location and website. It would be even more important to signpost.
As I said, we will come back later to the issue of public services, in which I know there will be a lot of interest. However, I hope that the Government will look at the regulators. Even if it is not in this Bill, they could still take action with each regulator because the issue represents the other side of the Bill. It is not simply about providing consumer rights but about making sure that those rights are looked after by every regulator. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I was about to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, for this amendment but, having seen all the troops she has on her side, it might be better for Labour to say, “We think this is dreadful”. It might make it easier for the Minister to accept it. However, I shall resist that temptation because I think that it is a brilliant amendment, and we are happy to support it. Earlier today we clearly failed to persuade the Government to embed the consumer voice right in the top echelons of regulators—that has been the tone of the debate—but this is another way to achieve the same end. The examples given by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, as well as those from the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Whitty, about different regulators show how often, without that consumer voice, they fail to protect the consumer. The question from the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, about who regulates the regulators is very interesting because the answer ought to be, “the consumers”. The more that it is open to them, the better it will be.
The amendment is excellent. It would put in place the possibility of redress without consumers necessarily having to take their individual case to an ombudsman. It would ensure a proper complaints procedure for mistakes and poor service, falling short of a breach of rights, that nevertheless lead to substantial losses to the consumers. As has been said, it is extraordinary that regulators, which are supposedly in existence because a particular market has failed consumers, still often fail to put consumers first. They have allowed users to be muddled by confusing prices, ripped off by poor deals and ignored when making complaints. Consumers are often made to feel like the least important part of the food chain. As my noble friend Lord Berkeley says, it is often without their long-term interests being placed at the centre of regulators’ thoughts.
I look forward with interest to how the Minister is going to accept this amendment—because I am sure that she will.
Baroness Jolly
This has been a very interesting debate, interwoven with sorry tales about regulators. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, as an MP, regularly heard these tales from constituents coming into his constituency surgery. One of the regulator’s primary objectives is to take account of consumer interests. They must report annually on how they fulfil their functions, and they have done much good work for consumers. Water companies have agreed to return £1 billion to consumers after negotiating with Ofwat and the Consumer Council for Water. All but two water companies agreed in their plans to keep prices at inflation levels. Ofcom has capped second class mail prices, while Ofgem has made npower pay £55 million to consumers due to incorrect billing. However, it is also important to know that Citizens Advice does a lot of advice in this area.
I refer noble Lords back to my comments on Amendment 105A regarding the good work that Citizens Advice is doing. In addition to those comments, I shall expand on the benefits that that body provides to consumers. It promotes consumer rights and clear, intelligible information for consumers. Sixteen million people were helped through the Citizens Advice digital service, while 84% of clients said that their understanding of their rights had increased and 86% of clients reported a positive impact of advice on their lives. All this is a key port of call for consumers in the regulated sectors. I also mention that relevant consumer bodies play a vital role in this regard, especially in helping consumers on matters around redress, complaints and securing the best deals in issues such as utilities. The effect of this amendment would be to place extra requirements on regulators and increase bureaucracy when there is a drive to cut the costs of regulation and increase efficiency. The Government believe that in many cases it would also replicate protections that already exist and take away the discretion of regulators to decide what is appropriate in the circumstances.
On regulators levying fines for breach of any part of this amendment, the enhanced consumer measures set out in Clause 79 and Schedule 7 to the Bill would achieve a similar aim. In summary, there is a limited benefit in adding more duties on the regulators. Noble Lords can be reassured that much is being done for consumers by regulators, but of course we salute the wonderful work being done in the world of consumer rights as championed by my noble friend, and we will be happy to meet her to discuss the amendment. However, I ask her to withdraw it.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I think we will just call the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, a brave man. I would not take that lot on.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is right. We had a brief canter around this area last week on his amendments. I just want to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, for focusing the Government’s attention on this. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said, this is a Consumer Rights Bill and this is a very basic right: to be able to have a choice about whether to have your bills on paper and to pay by cheque—without paying for the privilege.
We need to keep at the centre of our debates those customers who struggle to get paper bills, and easily accessible and understandable information. The figure of 7 million has been mentioned of people who do not have internet access. We have a lot of people who find that even reading is quite difficult, let alone trying to do it on a small handheld telephone. But as we mentioned last week, there are other people as well, not just those who do not have access to printers, but who, for example, need a domestic bill to prove their identity, as my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey has said. But there are also carers and cared-for people, as the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, has highlighted. There are also divorcing couples, which is the time when you have to start splitting bills; the self-employed who need to make claims; people who work away or are in hospital for a long time, who may not have access to their normal internet and can quickly lose track of what is happening.
I will take two minutes to tell you the very sad story of a friend of mine who was virtually battered to death. She was in hospital for a very long period after this. But the only way she was able to help the police find the culprit was when she woke up in hospital. The usual thing happened, her post came in. Her bills came in and she was able to see that a credit card had been used. The police could then go and see where that money had come from, and find a photograph of the culprit. I am glad to say that the attempted murderer is now well locked away. But there are all sorts of reasons why people feel secure when they are able to see that sort of data on paper.
That may be an extreme example, but people want to check on what bills have come; they want to check on who paid them; flat sharers want to be able to divvy them up; and people who have got any problems, particularly with paying bills, as we mentioned last time, where they have to work out which bill to pay when in order to make sure that nothing is cut off. They literally do this with paper. I sometimes think that those who run the utilities just do not understand how people live. Maybe they should spend a day with my noble friend Lord Clarke of Hampstead sitting in a post office and hearing about how people do things; they would learn a little more.
Finally, some companies take particular advantage of their poorer customers. On the wider issue of price, we know that energy suppliers target their lowest price at the big users and actually penalise their smaller customers for not using very much, and then go on to make it even worse by charging those very customers if they want their bills on paper.
It is great that some people can do all of this electronically, but they are likely to be younger, and more savvy. I wonder whether the utilities really have to make life difficult for the rest of us—who want paper bills and the use of cheques—to encourage others to take up the electronic option. People who choose to do it electronically do not do it to save £6; they do it because that fits in with their way of life. I doubt very much they need a £6 bribe, if you like, to go electronically. That may have been the case earlier on, but now it is not the reason. Rather it is an excuse for the utilities to get a bit of money out of people who want to pay by cheque rather than, any longer, acting as an incentive. I hope that the Minister hears the strength of feeling. She may recall when we had the debate in the Chamber that this was the feeling across the House, and there will be a lot of support. It would be advisable for the Government to take the initiative and do this rather than have the sort of defeats that we have seen tonight in the Chamber.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes
My Lords, I would like to make a point in the limited time remaining, which is that the companies that continue to give paper bills and continue to give the sort of services we have asked for are not losing anything, because of all the extra money they have earned from the vast majority of people who are paying online. So there is no financial loss to any of these companies, and particularly to BT.