Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Wednesday 30th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, noble Lords will be very pleased to hear that I intend neither to speak for very long nor to divide the House on my amendment. However, I will press the Government for some clarity about a group of people whose interests are extremely important: those going through the recruitment process to become members of His Majesty’s Armed Forces. The amendment therefore seeks to expand very slightly the scope of the Armed Forces commissioner to include not people who wander into an Army recruitment centre and say, “I am interested in joining”, but people who have submitted applications and might be going through the recruitment process.

My understanding, from my honourable friend in the other place, Helen Maguire, is that it is still possible that people going through the recruitment process might be required to stay overnight. In those circumstances, there may be times when people feel that they are subject to abuse, bullying or the sorts of issues that they might need to complain about. On the face of it, it would appear to be appropriate that such people would come under the purview of the Armed Forces commissioner.

If the Minister cannot accept my amendment, would he be able to explain to the House what recourse people going through the recruitment process might have? If it is not through the commissioner, are there other ways for people to raise concerns? If they can do so, is it made clear to people how they can put in complaints? A frequent concern is that individuals do not necessarily know how to make representations. That is obviously a matter for people going through the recruitment process, as well as a wider issue that members of the Armed Forces face, and we may well come back to it when we discuss other amendments. With that, I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I have attached my name to Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, to which Amendment 1 is linked; I will speak only extremely briefly because she has made the case very well.

I will link this amendment to my Amendment 8, which we will get to later. As the Minister well knows, it relates to my concern about 16 and 17 year-olds—or even 15 year-olds—being recruited into the Armed Forces. The noble Baroness spoke about people in residential situations, but if a 15, 16 or 17 year-old, who has decided that their whole future is in the military, finds that the assessment process operates in a way that is—we would hope that this would not happen, but we need to consider the possibility—abusive or inappropriate in some way, it is important that that person has protection.

I am particularly thinking of—although not solely—those 15, 16 or 17 year-olds who are vulnerable people, and who pin their whole future life on what happens to them in those few days or during a specific test. It is really important that they have the protection that we all want the Armed Forces commissioner to be able to provide to members of the military. I believe that these prospective members of the military should fall within—an often-used phrase—the military family.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, I oppose Amendments 1 and 6. While I have enormous sympathy with their intent, when I heard the noble Baroness say that this would expand the role of the commissioner a little bit, I am afraid I thought it would do anything but. If we consider that there are some 160,000 to 170,000 members of the Armed Forces, including reserves, who would be able to have access to the commissioner because they are subject to service law, and that there are over 100,000 applications—the word used by the noble Baroness—to join the British Army alone, never mind the two other services, we would in effect be doubling the aperture for those who could potentially submit a complaint to the commissioner. The commissioner’s office is already under enormous strain. It is a tiny office because much of the service complaints system is done through the single services. The Bill already suggests that the budget for the commissioner is going to have to double. I simply do not understand how the commissioner could cope, but I am sympathetic to what the noble Baroness is trying to achieve.

Equally, Amendment 6 is slightly confused, because in Committee we established that attestation is the point at which someone joins the Armed Forces, and that is when they become subject to service law. Yet, where the noble Baroness seeks to extend it to those engaged in training as well, those people by definition have been attested and, if they are conducting military training, have already joined the military and so will be subject to service law.

While I am on my feet, I want to address a general point with the Minister in my capacity—and I declare my interest—as director of Army Reserve, on the test for whether someone is subject to service law. As a humble reservist, I am subject to service law, but only when I am claiming a reserve service day or wearing a uniform. For much of my time, like other reservists, I am not subject to service law. The problem is that, just because I and my fellow reservists are not subject to service law, that does not mean that the military is not doing things in my name which may warrant a service complaint. For example, I could be subject to a promotions board which I wish to contest; or I could be on a leave of absence, which then could be misinterpreted as a long-term absence and I could be dismissed from the Army Reserve. Indeed, I could be posted while I am on a leave of absence but not technically subject to service law at that point. If we look at this from a purely technical point of view and if we look at the Bill precisely, for all those actions happening while I am not subject to service law, I would not be able to submit a service complaint. I am not suggesting that it needs an amendment, but it would be useful if the Minister could reassure your Lordships’ House that the intent is that, when it comes to the reserves, they will be able to submit a complaint to the commissioner whether or not they are technically subject to service law at that moment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle]

8: Clause 4, page 3, line 28, at end insert—
“(7A) The Commissioner must where relevant, with particular reference to service people and relevant family members under the age of 18, consult with the Children’s Commissioner and other relevant departments, bodies and individuals with particular responsibility for child welfare.”

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will be brief, as I am aware of the desire of the House to progress. The amendment goes back to what we discussed in Committee, raising the issue of under-18s in the Armed Forces, which the Minister knows is a particular concern of mine. At that point, I jumped on the back of an amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. She listed a number of areas of concern and I added under-18s to that list.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for making those points. It is crucial that there is public and general understanding of the situation. I thank the Minister for his response; I heard what I wanted to hear in what he said, and that is now on the record in Hansard for future reference, which is really why I brought this amendment. I appreciate the acknowledgement of the importance of this issue from around the House, and I thank all noble Lords who contributed.

In response to the noble Earl, Lord Minto, I confess that this is my personal drafting and I do not make any great claims about my legal capacities. What I intended it to say—and I think what it does say—is that the commissioner must, where relevant, consult with the Children’s Commissioner. It remains within the hands of the Armed Forces commissioner and they will then choose to engage when they judge it relevant.

These are issues I have no doubt we will return to, but, while I still do not believe we should be recruiting 16 and 17 year-olds, it is my hope that we ensure they have the best possible experience they can. As the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, said, the young people who do not make it through the system—and about one-third of them either leave or are thrown out—immediately become NEETs, not in employment, education or training. Those figures really have to come down, for the well-being of young people. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.