Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 24th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, I share the concern, expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, that lies behind the amendments, although these particular ones do not in fact capture, in my view, the solution to the problem.

The problem is that the nature of classified locations varies. There will be some sites to which the Armed Forces commissioner would not, presumably, be denied access entirely. However, many sites have large areas that will be, and should be, open to the commissioner, but within which there are particular discrete locations where classified activity is conducted, to which he or she should not be admitted.

The Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State may well draw up a list, as was intended, of classified locations. Although the list will be classified and therefore will not be in secondary legislation, as the Minister has pointed out, it will deny the commissioner access to those sites. But the problem with lists is that they are seldom comprehensive and seldom up to date. We are talking about a very large span of estate with a very large spread of activities. The idea that such a list can be kept up to the minute will involve, first, a huge bureaucratic effort and, secondly, will almost certainly be doomed to failure.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, pointed out, it is the responsibility of local commanders to ensure that national security is preserved and that classified information is not available to those who should not have access to it. Therefore, it seems to me that there is only one sensible answer to this conundrum: for the Bill to provide commanding officers with the power in the last resort to deny the commissioner access to specific locations on the grounds that they contain classified activities or classified material. The commanding officer should of course then be required to justify themselves through the chain of command to the Secretary of State. But if we do not provide them with that backstop authority, we are, frankly, hanging local commanders out to dry with the legislation as it now stands.

These amendments do not provide the solution that I see as necessary, but can the Minister undertake today to take away these very real and important concerns and consider how they might be addressed before we get to Report? I repeat what I have said earlier: I entirely understand that such conflicts are likely to be very rare. The commissioner is going to be engaged in looking at service accommodation and other general conditions of service, so most of the time they will not be seeking access to such sites. But it is entirely conceivable that he or she will need such access, particularly if they are considering thematic issues to do with working conditions—and just once is once too many when it comes to national security. I ask the Minister to reflect on this, and perhaps we can have some discussions outside Committee before we get to Report.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to this set of amendments, really to provide some balance, because I feel that we should hear both sides of the argument. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, in introducing these amendments, said that the commissioner should not be visiting without the Secretary of State being aware, and I entirely agree with that. Obviously, the Secretary of State is the person with political responsibility, who needs to know what is going on and whether the commissioner has identified a potential problem. However, not being aware is not the same as having seven days’ notice. There is a very large gap between those two things.

What we have just heard from the noble and gallant Lord about the commanding officer having the right to deny access is, I am aware, not directly in line with these amendments. However, on day one in Committee we talked about how the ombudsman, as structured, has not worked and has not had sufficient powers. We have to be careful to make sure that we are not putting a commissioner in the same position here. We have to be realistic: there may be a systemic issue, such as those we talked about on the previous day in Committee, and a concern about the treatment of female service people. We might hope that a commander would always want that issue to be exposed and understood, but we cannot guarantee that, and it is really important that we do not disempower the commissioner with changes to this Bill before they are even created and put in place.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, back to her place today; I know she was busy elsewhere in the House of Lords on our first day. It is welcome to see her here. Both she and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, asked about the opportunity to discuss the points that have been made, and we can of course meet between Committee and Report to do so. I can promise the meeting, but I cannot promise the outcome. To be frank, as noble Lords will know, that is how we in this House conduct business, improve legislation and achieve the objective that we all want: the commissioner being effective and having the appropriate powers to do the task they undertake.

As noble Lords know, I like to make some general remarks before making formal points; I hope that is helpful to the Committee. I understand the noble Baroness’s point about the balance between the powers of the Secretary of State and of the commissioner, and I will say something about that. We have tried very hard to balance those powers. I also hear the point made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, about the importance of national security. There may be elements of a particular base that one would expect the commissioner to be precluded from visiting for national security reasons, even if it is not the whole base; there is also the role of the commanding officer to consider.

On the question of intention, if we take the example of a normal decision of the commissioner to visit a base, the noble Baroness and the noble and gallant Lord will see that there is a requirement in the Bill for the commissioner to notify the Secretary of State that they are visiting a particular base:

“If the Commissioner proposes to exercise the power under subsection (1), the Commissioner must give the Secretary of State notice of the proposal within such period before exercising the power as the Commissioner considers appropriate”.


The noble Baroness’s amendment would require that that happen at least seven days before the commissioner intends to exercise the power. The expectation would be that the Secretary of State would then tell the commanding officer that such a visit was to take place.

However, as the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, pointed out, under the Bill a confidential list will be drawn up saying where the Secretary of State believes it inappropriate for the commissioner to visit because of national security reasons. That will be shared with the commissioner, although it will remain confidential. But we will take up the point made by the noble and gallant Lord about how that will work with a base only a small part of which may be subject to national security concerns.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Earl said, but this seems a rather strange amendment. In my view, it is axiomatic that the work of the Armed Forces commissioner, and the issues that he or she addresses, may have an effect on recruitment and retention in every instance—so that goes without saying—but I am not at all clear how the Armed Forces commissioner will determine whether they have an actual effect. It does not seem to be something that the Armed Forces commissioner can practically fulfil in the sense of the noble Earl’s amendment. I entirely endorse the sentiment behind it, but I simply do not see that it adds anything to the Bill.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, I feel it might be useful if I made some comments on her Amendment 18. I have not discussed this with her so, for the avoidance of doubt, I am in no way speaking for her.

This is an interesting and useful amendment to discuss, particularly in Committee. Clause 4(3) says that, after the commissioner has conducted an inquiry, they are required to offer a report. The amendment proposes that the commissioner should make an annual report on the work done to improve the welfare of service personnel and public awareness of the issues. The idea of an annual report is interesting. I am not entirely wedded to the word “annual”—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, although 10 minutes have not quite elapsed, I think that everybody who was in the Room before we adjourned is back in the Room. We might just take advantage of a few minutes before the next Division is called to continue—it will be called very shortly. Would the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, like to resume?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I thank the noble Baroness very much. I did not have any written notes, so I shall do my best to continue seamlessly.

I think I was commenting on the way in which the public and Parliament know what the commissioner is doing, and there are a couple of elements in this amendment that are particularly relevant. The general point is that, if the commissioner is holding an inquiry on a particular subject, that may indeed take quite a significant period of time. There are issues that are being resolved that do not necessarily deserve a stand-alone report on a particular subject—but do we have a sense of what issues are being addressed and how the commissioner is working? In particular, we can look at proposed new Section 340OA(1)(c) in this amendment, on

“the resources used by the Commissioner in fulfilling its functions, and any further resources required”.

It is important that Parliament and the public have a sense that the commissioner has a vehicle by which they can say, “X number of extra issues have been raised with me, but I only have the resources to do this number of things”.

So it is useful at this stage perhaps to regard this as a probing amendment. I am very interested in whether the Minister can comment on Clause 4(3) on page 5, which I referred to. It talks about an investigation and a report, but how are we going to know what the commissioner is doing in a general sense and get a general picture of their work? How do Parliament and the public know that? I think that is what this amendment seeks to address.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Minto, for introducing these amendments. I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, here and note her apologies but also her sterling efforts to get here despite the broken rail. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for stepping in.

The noble Earl is right to point out the challenges on recruitment and retention, and the Government are taking a number of steps to try to deal with those outside the remit of the Bill. We can go through all those, on pay, how the childcare arrangements have changed and the change to the recruiting system—there will be a new system from 2027 that will bring the three services together. All those sorts of changes are trying to improve the recruitment process. On the retention aspects of it, we hope and expect that the general welfare investigations and work that the commissioner does may help to address some of the other points that the noble Earl made with respect to their impact.

But I take the point from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup: of course the commissioner can look at recruitment and retention if she or he believes them to be of a general welfare concern. Whether they do or not is an open debate, but we are taking other measures outside this Bill to deal with that issue, and we hope that we can address that in the way we want.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

Yes. For the purposes of this I am making a verbal amendment to what is on the page; I am not proposing to bring back an amendment like Amendment 2 that would bring in hundreds of thousands of other people. I do not think that was ever the intention; the drafting was not as clear as it might have been. The amendment laid in the Commons and re-laid here was broader than it should have been.

Having listened to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, my sense is that we should not only be looking at women, LGBT groups, BAME people, non-UK citizens and disabled people in the Armed Forces. We should also be thinking that this might be the time to think about the Armed Forces commissioner not just being available for those going through training, but it might be sensible to make sure that the communications are made to them.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I apologise to the noble Baroness and the Committee more broadly for not being here when my name was attached to earlier amendments. I am not going to complain much about my latest train delays, but I will warn anyone heading on the east coast main line tonight that there are overhead wire problems.

I will speak specifically to Amendment 11 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, to which I have attached my name. I will also speak to my Amendment 12. I apologise for jumping on the back of the noble Baroness’s excellently drafted amendment but I thought there was one element missing, which is what I have added here. This proposed new clause is headed:

“Commissioner support for minority groups within service personnel”.


The Committee will be familiar with my long-term concerns about service personnel who were recruited under the age of 18 and those in the services under the age of 18, which my amendment addresses. I think the way the noble Baroness constructed Amendment 11 set out very well the reasons why and how this should be done. Proposed new subsection 3 in my amendment says that the commissioner must

“maintain up-to-date evidence on the experiences of these groups of service personnel and develop robust community engagement mechanisms”.

To address the first point about evidence, I think we are all very aware of this. I know about the situation of recruits under 18 because of the work of the Child Rights International Network and a series of reports it produced. We are aware of cases of women in the military. We can think back to the situation where we saw a big national campaign about Gurkha veterans a few years ago. We often find out about these issues as they are drawn to our attention through the efforts of NGOs, campaign groups and the work of the affected personnel themselves—and then it is splashed all over the media.

That is not the way in which the Government and Parliament should be made aware of what is happening. We need a regular, steady, reporting record that enables political direction to come from both Parliament and Ministers towards the military, saying, “There’s a problem here; something needs to be done about it”. Keeping up-to-date evidence and not relying on the efforts of volunteers and the personnel themselves is very much addressed by this.

I have put this on the record before, but I have to note the way in which the situation of recruits under 18 has drawn the attention of the United Nations. We referred at Second Reading to one tragic suicide case but of course there are many. CRIN tells us that recruits under 18 are tragically three times more likely to die by suicide than their peers of the same age and two times more likely to die from suicide as adult joiners of the military. We have heard complaints about the Harrogate college and 13 reports of sexual assault cases in a year. I think I can probably guess what the Minister will say—that we have to leave this to the Armed Forces commissioner to decide for themselves.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for his introduction to the Bill. I offer further broad Green support for the general direction of the Bill and the creation of an Armed Forces commissioner.

Since I have a large range of portfolios to cover, I will draw a couple of parallels with other areas, where we have seen similar positions created or proposed. It is worth looking at the parallels for those comparisons. The first of these was just a few days ago, in Committee on the Mental Health Bill, when an amendment was tabled—and will return on Report—to create a mental health commissioner; that is, a champion for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, shares what is being said here with his health colleagues.

In that debate, I drew a parallel with an already existing position, which has been highly successful—the Patient Safety Commissioner—which was fought for and won by Baroness Cumberlege, who has now retired from your Lordships’ House, sadly. The Patient Safety Commissioner has been really important as a champion for vulnerable people. As the powerful maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Carberry, outlined, all military personnel are vulnerable, being in the chain of the command and denied those union rights that we guarantee—one way or another—to most other workers. All military personnel are vulnerable.

When we think about who the commissioner is, we need to focus on the fact that some members of our Armed Forces are more vulnerable than others, particularly by reason of age or gender. A number of noble Lords, including the Minister, have focused on the tragic case of Gunner Jaysley-Louise Beck. I point the Minister to something I said in the Moses Room in the Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment No. 2) Rules debate. I had just been at a meeting where a representative of female personnel serving in the military said that where they are at now is going back to the attitudes of 2015, particularly in the treatment of female victims of abusers. I contrast that with the Army’s statement after the inquest into the tragic death of Gunner Jaysley-Louise Beck, which said that there had been

“significant changes in the Army, including the introduction of clear and unequivocal policies to state that there will be zero tolerance to unacceptable sexual behaviours”.

I welcome that statement from the Army, but it does not reflect what I have heard from serving personnel and people who speak to and represent them now.

At this point, I feel that I have to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, about the importance of independent oversight of this appointment. I am not sure whether the Select Committee is the right procedure, but we definitely need that because this person will have such an important role. The noble Baroness commented about an anonymous whistleblower scheme, which we should also potentially look into because we know that sexual predators are often serial abusers and serial predators. It may be that their first, second or third victim does not feel, for whatever reason, that they can come forward. People may witness disturbing behaviour and it might be difficult to know whether to report that. An anonymous whistleblower scheme would potentially help some very vulnerable people in our military.

It probably will not surprise the Minister that the second group of vulnerable people I am going to focus on are the young people, particularly the under-18s, in our military. The Minister knows well my views on this, but the public may not have as much awareness as they need to of the fact that, for example, in 2021-22—to pick one year—23% of British recruits signed up before their 18th birthday. It was 30% if you take just the Army. Think about who the commissioner is going to have to serve; they will have to serve a significant number of children. That will have to be thought about when we consider who that commissioner is.

It is also worth focusing on the fact that the UK military focuses its recruitment on areas of socioeconomic deprivation, and those recruited as minors are disproportionately enlisted from those deprived areas. I point to some really interesting and disturbing work done by Jonathan Parry from LSE and Christina Easton from Warwick University, looking at some of the issues that arise from socioeconomic disadvantage. It can have negative effects on decision-making and inform a mental bandwidth tax, which affects cognition and control. Perhaps we should think clearly about the ability to access a post such as a commissioner. Socioeconomic deprivation is associated with educational and informational disadvantage. Three-quarters of junior recruits assessed in 2015 had a reading age of 11 or below, with some having a reading age of five. We need a commissioner who is able to help people in that situation.

I want to make one final, broader reflection. Many speakers have referred to the state of geopolitics. We have of course seen a great deal of talk about increasing the size of the military, and ensuring that we have a strong commissioner is relevant for this. The people talking about increasing the size of the military really need to look at the demographics, because they will see that by 2040 the population of 18 year-olds will be 10% smaller than it is now. Some figures on health published in the International Journal of Epidemiology showed that 25% of children born in England in 2003-04 had a chronic health condition by the time they reached the age of 16. It is crucial that we are able to look after the vulnerable people in our military, so we need the right person as a commissioner.

Armed Forces (Court Martial) (Amendment No. 2) Rules 2024

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2025 Grand Committee

This is a small change to the constitution of the court martial, but it is important and sensible. It will ensure that, where the defendant in the court martial is a very senior officer, it will always be possible to select a president of the board with the appropriate seniority for the important duties and functions of that role. With that explanation, I beg to move.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear and comprehensive introduction to this statutory instrument, which makes, as he said, a small change to the existing system. However, the fact that this statutory instrument comes before your Lordships’ Committee today provokes me to rise with a single question for the Minister: does not the fact that this small change is being brought here today mean that the Government are prepared to look at bigger changes in future and are looking at the entire system of military justice?

I ask that specific question because, earlier today, I was at an event with the Child Rights International Network, the Centre for Military Justice and Salute Her UK. The Child Rights International Network was expressing great concern about events at the Army Foundation College and the level of offences, particularly sexual offences, there. More broadly, there was a sense at the meeting that the service complaints and justice systems in the military are broken; that units are marking their own homework; and that there are serious problems with the investigation of rape and sexual assault cases, as well as with the experiences of black and racially minoritised personnel.

I have no objection to the statutory instrument before us but, at that meeting, something was said that I found very disturbing. A representative of female personnel serving in the military and veterans said that they felt as though they had gone back to 2015 in terms of the attitude of military justice, particularly towards female victims of potential abuses in the military. Can the Minister assure me that the Government are prepared to, and will, look much more broadly at the whole system?

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, when we get to questions of military justice, I normally rely on my good friend, my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, to speak on these matters because he is far more expert than me. So, I am grateful that the Minister gave us the background to this case. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I suggest that we accept this amendment as it stands, clearly, but I have a couple of questions, one of which is quite close to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Is there a danger that officers of a certain rank will feel unable to act as robustly as they might otherwise do if the officer at the court martial is senior to them?

There is a real question around whether service justice is doing what it needs to do. Clearly, the person facing the court martial needs to be treated fairly, but the Armed Forces still have questions to answer. If we look back to the Atherton report in the previous Parliament, when Sarah Atherton serving personnel and former personnel to come and give evidence—very much with the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie—we see that that was important. If courts martial are being populated by serving personnel, will people feel that they can really act as judge and jury in the way they need to be able to do?

I have another related question. It is noted, in the Explanatory Notes, that part of the issue is a lack of senior officers. As His Majesty’s Armed Forces shrink—the size of the Army, in particular, has shrunk—will the problem get worse rather than better? Do we need to think about how to reform military justice, in a wider sense, to ensure that the best practices are in place?

Defence Programmes Developments

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for raising the point about the industrial dispute affecting the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The only thing I can say is that discussions are ongoing. We obviously hope it can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction in due course.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Statement says that “difficult decisions” are required. Should those difficult decisions—or at least, difficult considerations—not include giving serious consideration as to whether we should continue a nuclear weapons programme? Philip Stephens, a contributing editor at the Financial Times wrote in a piece this week that the defence review, as currently constituted, is

“a necessary start, but an inadequate one”

to considering our defence policy. Stephens says in that article:

“A brave government would also ask whether it is wise to spend so many billions on a nuclear system maintained by the US”.


Is this a brave Government?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

We are certainly a brave Government, but it has been a consistent policy of whatever Government have been in power to support the nuclear deterrent. The nuclear deterrent will continue; we will renew the nuclear deterrent. I just say to the noble Baroness, who is quite entitled to the opinion she holds, that I think it incumbent upon us to do that, given the threats we are seeing from President Putin—the irresponsible threats at the present time raise the prospect of it. Let us be clear about this: we support the nuclear deterrent, and we support its renewal. That is an important part of our defence.

Strategic Defence Review

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I begin by welcoming the wider participation in the preparation of this defence review reported by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen. We clearly need far more democratic input to fix our broken politics. There is a need for participation and public empowerment—and, of course, a need for Governments to listen.

I begin by focusing on one element of the strategic defence review’s terms of reference, explicitly stated as background: the instability caused by climate change. Right now, as we speak, Florida is hunkered down. The National Hurricane Center in the US expects Hurricane Milton to make landfall as an extremely dangerous major hurricane tonight, our time, with coastal areas already feeling the effects. One official said that the storm is going to be like nothing they have seen before.

Of course, that could be a metaphor for the entire defence environment that we are debating today. This comes after devastating flooding in western central Africa, which displaced hundreds of thousands of people. Last month, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy and Germany were hit by deadly and torrential rain. In May, there were catastrophic floods in southern Brazil and Uruguay. At the same time, Brazil is having to resort to unprecedented dredging of the once mighty Amazon to keep its travelways open after unprecedented drought. So I ask the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, an explicit question: can he assure us that climate will be central to this review, as it obviously needs to be, in terms of the threat to the security of this planet? Is there enough expertise in the team to make that possible?

Another side of the climate issue, from a defence perspective, is the damaging and destabilising role of fossil fuel companies, and mining companies in general, with human rights abuses that spread instability, hostility and rightful anger at the global North. I give just one example, the events in the summer of 2021 at a gas plant in Mozambique owned by Total Energies. Security at this gas plant was provided by a unit of the Mozambique army deployed in the gatehouse at the entrance to this western oil company project. The local villagers were rounded up—this has all been recently reported by Politico—and the men were separated from the women and children and crammed into shipping containers. The estimates range from 180 to 250 men crammed into those shipping containers. They were subjected to beatings and starvation. Only 26 survived.

The officer in charge of this mission said that its project was to protect Total, a fossil fuel project. This is not just an issue for across the channel from us, because in summer 2020 Britain put $1.15 billion of taxpayer money into supporting this project, investing in what was already a site of active conflict. This is a current issue, because the Government are now considering whether to continue taxpayer-funded direct loans and guarantees to this project. The point I am making is that we have to consider this holistically—not just defence on its own, but the entire issue of rights and security within which our defence forces, our country, operate.

Regarding other mining companies, I will just mention Glencore, about which there is a database of many scores of credible allegations of significant human rights abuses since 2010. Recently in Peru and Colombia, it has threatened indigenous communities and caused enormous environmental damage. There was also a toxic spill in Chad. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, spoke about the responsibilities of civil society, beyond those serving in the armed forces, for security. We have to focus not just on individuals but on the behaviour of our companies and I would also say the behaviour of our financial sector. Under the former Government, a Minister acknowledged that 40% of the world’s dirty, corrupt money goes through the City of London and the Crown dependencies. There are all the issues around supply chains, deforestation, human rights abuses and environmental damage, which brings me to one of my main points: why is this only a defence review?

That is perhaps a question particularly directed towards the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. What is the relationship between this work and the document Global Britain in a Competitive Age: The Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy, published in 2021 and refreshed in 2023? That document was criticised for not making strategic choices—for setting out lots of problems and things that needed to be done, but not making choices—but we have to make choices about where resources go. We can have a secure stable world, with its people equipped to tackle the polycrisis of environment, economy and geopolitics in which we are entrapped, only with support for education, healthcare, funding for democratic Governments and official development assistance. No one is safe until everyone is safe. Healthcare could not be more crucial. We have just had a German train station locked down because of the threat of the Marburg virus, which can have a fatality rate of up to 88%. Why are we not looking holistically at ODA, health spending and action against corruption?

I want to pick up very briefly the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller. The Green Party does not agree with the total commitment to the independent UK nuclear deterrent. We believe—we know—that the majority of the world’s countries back a global ban on nuclear weapons, and that we will have global security only when we have co-operation around the world. Why does it start from this point? You might hold this position, but why not ask the question? Surely, that has to be a responsibility in this unstable, dangerous age.

Finally, since AUKUS has been mentioned, I would not bet on long-term backing for AUKUS from Australian society. I note the opposition of two former Australian Prime Ministers and a former Australian Foreign Minister to AUKUS.

Defence Spending

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Most of the conversations about the issues Ukraine is facing start with air defence missiles. It is not just Ukraine but other states that could be threatened by the Russian Federation. There is an enormous effort in the production of these missiles to try to provide what is necessary, not just in the short term, which is moving them around, but in the long term. It was extremely good news to see the United States pass through their commitment to Ukraine. Some of the missiles have already been delivered.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in 2021, the Government published the integrated review entitled Global Britain in a competitive age, which was refreshed in 2023. It was described as setting out the UK’s overarching national security and international strategy, which covers defence, security, resilience, diplomacy, development and trade, as well as elements of economic and science and technology policy. In making this spending announcement on defence, and operating within that systemic approach to security, did the Government give full consideration to the possible need to increase spending on diplomacy and issues such as the climate emergency? Has this all been considered systemically in the round when looking at the allocation of resources?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that exactly those conversations have taken place, and that is one of the reasons why it has perhaps taken slightly longer to get to this position than I and many others would have liked.

Royal Navy: Climate Change Training

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am increasingly thinking this is rather like Groundhog Day. I entirely agree, but the words “war footing” are slightly alarmist. There is no doubt that we are in a considerably more unstable environment and that we need to invest in industrial capacity to rebuild our stockpiles and re-equip all our forces. As I said the other day, we have 22 ships and submarines on order. We have 1,200 armoured vehicles currently on order. The RAF has its greatest lift capacity since the Second World War. The new Chinooks announced yesterday by the Secretary of State are extremely good news.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, grounded in the reality of 2024 and the climate emergency, Britain faces greatly increased risks and the reality of floods, droughts, fires, and heat affecting public health. The independent Climate Change Committee said yesterday that the third national adaptation programme was wholly inadequate. Given that there will be increasing demands for military aid for civilian authorities—known as MACA—what extra training and provision are happening within the Navy? With areas such as floods, the Navy should have the capacity to help.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, there are training programmes in all three forces, and the whole question of climate change and the changing environment we will have to face is deeply embedded in that. However, I confirm that we will not compromise on military capabilities solely for some form of sustainable solution. Our job in the Ministry of Defence is to ensure and safeguard the national defence.

Situation in the Red Sea

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. These enormous shipping operations have clearly taken some commercial decisions, which are almost certainly the right thing to do for them and their customers. One can see why there may be some reticence for sovereign states to get involved in more direct action, thereby threatening some of those countries’ commercial assets.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, a clause in the Statement says:

“Intelligence analysis indicates that the strikes were successful”,—[Official Report, Commons, 26/2/24; col. 25.]


yet elsewhere, the Statement notes:

“The Houthi intent remains undiminished”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/2/24; col. 27.]


Picking up the point of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, there is little or no evidence thus far that there has been a meaningful diminishment in capacity. Is the word “successful” right, or should perhaps the Government not be saying something such as “achieved its objectives”?

I very much welcome the fact that the Statement says:

“Military action is only one aspect of our approach”,—[Official Report, Commons, 26/2/24; col. 25.]


focusing on diplomatic action but, on the countries we are working with, it talks about G7 partners, the US and the Sultan of Oman. However, many countries have been significantly impacted by this. For example, in Bangladesh, 65% of its garment exports, which are so central to its economy, go to Europe. The cost of containers is already up by about 50% and expected to go up by another 20%. Should the Government not be looking to do more to bring in countries such as Bangladesh, the Philippines and Indonesia, with so many seafarers being put at risk? Is this not a real opportunity to look truly globally and internationally, to try to get the international community working collectively—not necessarily but possibly through the UN—acknowledging that it cannot just be about a few countries?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Baroness says. The countries involved in the specific action we are taking are doing everything they can to get a situation where the Red Sea returns to being a safe passage of water. It is globally important; it is not just important for a few countries, as the noble Baroness rightly points out. That is precisely why we are acting as part of an international force to deter the Houthis and degrade their effect.

Red Sea Update

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. I shall certainly take away the points that he makes. Precision-driven strikes to disrupt and deter is one thing. To move to something more sustained is a decision that would have to be taken by the allies as a whole.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I begin by referring to the first sentence of this Statement:

“Freedom of navigation has been a cornerstone of civilisation since time immemorial”.


This is a principle that was codified in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea in 1982. It was not broadly accepted until well into the 19th century—and, in fact, the Dutch imposed it on us by the Treaty of Breda and the Treaty of Westminster in 1667 and 1674 respectively. Does the Minister agree with me that historical accuracy, sobriety of language and avoidance of hyperbole are important in an approach to foreign affairs at all times, but particularly given the state of the world today?

Following on from the points just made by the noble Lord, the Statement says:

“Despite repeated warnings, their attacks have continued”—


that is, the Houthi attacks. It says that

“the Houthis’ intent to continue disrupting the Red Sea has not been fully diminished”.

As the noble Lord just said, we have had drones, missiles and small boat assaults—there are many different methods. The definition of “fully diminished” would presumably be “stopped”. Do the Government believe that they can by military means stop the Houthi attacks?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her views. On the question of hyperbole, personally, I try never to use hyperbole. There is nowhere that you can go from hyperbole, so I tried to avoid it.

On the question of diminishing the Houthis’ ability to strike, we have seen that this has been to some extent successful. Certainly, the frequency of the strikes has reduced; the ferocity of strikes and the number of drones and missiles that they have been firing towards international shipping has also reduced.

I take the point about when freedom of navigation may have been enshrined in some form of law, but it has long been accepted that the freedom of the seas and the ability to trade from one country to the other are absolutely critical.

On the diplomatic efforts, I entirely agree. Military action is unlikely to achieve our aims. That is always the case with anything like this. But it provides a level of commitment and gravitas which, I hope, makes any aggressor realise that there must be another way out. We have increased our diplomatic engagement, with the Foreign Secretary going again, having met his Iranian counterpart last week. We apply pressure not just bilaterally but through forums such as the United Nations, and that sort of thing. So there is a very broad diplomatic approach to trying to finish this matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I will certainly take that up with my colleague, my noble friend Lord Ahmad.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, given that the Statement refers to the £88 million in humanitarian support provided to the people of Yemen this year, it is a bit of a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is not with us, because I am sure he could recite how much that figure has gone down. We are obviously talking about diplomacy and the views of the people of Yemen and how they react towards who is governing and controlling them. Have His Majesty’s Government made an assessment since the US and UK strikes started of what impact the strikes have had on the views of the people of Yemen, particularly towards the Houthis?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, has made a very good point about the reduction in aid generally, and the Government have responded to that in the appropriate way.

The Houthis are extremely powerful, but they seem to be limited to this specific area, and it is incumbent on the allies to ensure that pressure is kept up so that they do not spread to the rest of Yemen. We have very good relationships with the legitimate Government of Yemen and continue to work with them in that direction.