Budget Resolutions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

In his Budget speech, the Chancellor said he wanted to recognise the contribution of our creative industries and the tourism that comes from orchestras, museums, galleries and theatres. It was welcome that the Budget made permanent the tax reliefs they can claim. However, this Budget comes at a time when funding for our arts and culture sector is widely seen to be in crisis. Local authorities are the biggest funders of arts and culture, but years of cuts from Conservative-led Governments mean that the funding previously spent on supporting orchestras to work in communities, investing in grassroots music venues or strengthening the pipeline of talent into the music industry has fallen by 43% since 2010. The Local Government Association reports that more than a third of local authorities are saying that they need to make cost savings on arts and culture to balance the books. That balancing of the books has become ever harder at a time of increasing need for social care, children’s services and support for homelessness.

The decline of support for music is most worrying in music education, where music and art subjects are being squeezed out for pupils in state schools. There has been a drop in the number of music teachers, a drop in the number of hours music is taught, a drop in the take-up of music subjects at GCSE and A-level, and a drop in funding in state schools. Just 15% of state-school students receive sustained music tuition compared with half of children at independent schools, which still believe in music education.

Music hubs have a vital role in providing high-quality music education, providing it to 87% of schools in England, yet the funding for music hubs has declined in real terms over the last decade. Their financial viability will come under even further threat in September if the Government end their funding of the teachers’ pension scheme for the thousands of music teachers engaged by music hubs. This has only been extended to August, so there is a great deal of uncertainty. By not addressing this issue and by bringing about the decline of music education in state schools, the Government risk losing music teachers, future musicians and the audiences of the future. They also fail to offer children access to an activity with many benefits for their academic, social and emotional development.

There are further challenges for the music industry. For musicians looking to tour overseas, the Government’s failure to negotiate a touring agreement with the EU has had devastating impacts on pay and career progression, particularly for developing artists. Added to that, we have failings at His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in issuing A1 forms on time, and that is causing long delays and financial penalties for UK musicians who tour Europe. It is not acceptable that touring musicians are now waiting up to a year to be paid due to HMRC’s failings.

Musicians hoping to play closer to home in one of England’s brilliant music venues or one of our festivals may now find fewer options. Over 125 grassroots music venues were lost in 2023, according to the Music Venue Trust, and 15 festivals have already been forced to postpone or cancel this year. Music events are important for the visitor economy. UK Music estimates that over 14 million music tourists come to the UK every year, and they spend £6.5 billion while they are here. The Music Venue Trust reports that every £10 spent on a live music ticket is worth £17 to the area’s local economy. Grassroots venues are where many musicians learn their trade. The Bath music venue Moles helped to launch the careers of Ed Sheeran, Oasis and Radiohead, but it was one of the 15% of grassroot music venues that closed their doors last year.

The Budget missed many opportunities for the Government to help the music industry, and Ministers have failed to address the issues I have raised. Today my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition said

“It is short-sighted and frankly immoral, to allow arts and culture to become the domain of a few privileged pupils… Britain is a world leader in music and film, but we are holding back masses of potential because the Conservatives’ creativity crisis is shutting kids out.”

Fourteen years of Conservative Governments undervaluing culture and music have created that creativity crisis, and I am delighted that Labour’s mission is to break down the barrier to opportunity in music in the arts. Labour’s former Culture Secretary, Lord Smith of Finsbury, said that he believed his role from 1997 to 2001 was about

“all the things that for ordinary people make life worth living.”

If elected, Labour will unleash a generation of creativity, so that every child gets access to creative subjects, not just the privileged few, and I welcome that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

This week in the House, I raised with the Economic Secretary to the Treasury the fact that serious delays in His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs issuing A1 forms mean that touring musicians are waiting months to be paid. A1 forms ensure that musicians do not have to pay additional tax when touring in the EU, but some musicians are waiting six to nine months, or even a year, for those forms. One leading singer told me that musicians feel like “hostages” of HMRC incompetence, so what is the Secretary of State doing alongside Treasury Ministers to sort out this mess, which is hitting UK musicians so hard?

[Lucy Frazer]

I recognise the importance of touring to many of our fantastic industries. We have bilateral agreements with many other countries to ensure that touring can take place, but I will continue to ensure that as a Government, we take every step across the board to make sure that our musicians can tour appropriately.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 16th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

I have to say that the Bath young carers played wonderfully, and I really enjoyed listening to them.

Ofsted recently stated that there remains a

“divide between children and young people whose families can afford to pay for music tuition and those who come from lower socio-economic backgrounds.”

I share the concern just expressed about the impact this is having. The money promised for musical instruments in June 2022, which the Minister has just mentioned, has still not been distributed to schools, and it now sounds as though that money is not going to arrive until autumn 2024. Will that delay not just mean that more children are not able to learn to play an instrument? What action can the Minister take to speed it up?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I can tell the hon. Lady that the Government remain committed to investment through the music hub investment programme, and I am happy to give her a specific answer to the question she raises about the allocation of that money in writing. The Government are working very closely with the DFE on this, and we also look forward to producing a cultural education plan in early 2024.

BBC Licence Fee Non-Payment (Decriminalisation for Over-75s) Bill

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 20th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

For 100 years, our country has benefited from the world-class content provided by the BBC. It is responsible for creating great TV programmes that we all enjoy and for screening the sport and live events that we all care about. But its reach goes much further than that, from providing local news to broadcasting internationally through the World Service, and from educating our children to underpinning creative industries across the UK.

The BBC is also the biggest commissioner of music, and one of the biggest employers of musicians in the country. From the Proms to the programming of Radio 3, to the world-class musicians in the BBC Singers and the BBC orchestras, the BBC is highly regarded for its music, both here and around the world. I have raised a number of issues with the BBC about protecting the position of our world-class musicians, and I think their strengths are now understood.

The value that the BBC provides is immense, and for every pound put into the BBC, it delivers back £2.63 of direct economic impact. Importantly, 50% of those benefits are to regions outside London. As a Salford MP, I appreciate the work that the BBC does from its Salford base. To fund a universal service with such breadth and impact, some sort of payment model must exist, and for many years the licence fee has served that purpose.

As we have been hearing, however, for many over-75s, paying for a TV licence is a relatively new experience. Under the previous Labour Government, the licence fee was covered for that age group, making them exempt from payment. In 2015, the BBC was handed responsibility for the policy, and following a consultation with nearly 200,000 responses, it found that it simply could not afford to absorb the £745 million that it would cost to maintain free licences for all over-75s. As a result, since 2020 free licences are restricted to over-75s in receipt of pension credit, costing the BBC a smaller, but still significant sum of £250 million a year.

For those over-75s who must now pay the fee, support in making that change has been crucial. The BBC informed all over-75s personally of the change of policy, ran a public information campaign on the availability of pension credit, phased the payment system in, and offered specialised payment plans for those moving from a free to a paid licence. Decriminalising the non-payment of the fee for that age group is not a suitable support measure. In fact, decriminalisation could make matters worse both for those in that age group, and for the BBC.

Let me look further at the issues around enforcement that we have touched on in this debate. No one wants pensioners to be put in prison for not paying their fee, and fortunately nobody—nobody at all—is imprisoned for licence-fee evasion in England and Wales. The maximum sentence for evasion alone is a fine, and custodial sentences would be imposed only in rare cases where a fine was not paid. Indeed, as the Minister has said, data shows that there are no over-75s in prison for failing to pay a TV licence fine, and prosecution of any kind is an absolute last resort, taking place only after every measure to retrieve payment has been tried. Prosecutions can take place only when it is in the public interest to do so.

As we have heard, under the alternative of the civil system, the enforcement regime has the potential to be harsher. Indeed, the current system allows the court to apply discretion by ensuring that any fines are within what is affordable for an individual to pay. A fine under the civil system would be fixed at a higher rate, and it would not be possible to take income into account, leaving the most vulnerable at risk of being unable to pay. Likewise, the current system means that over-75s leave with no criminal record and no impact to their credit score, and never see a bailiff at their door to collect the fines. Under a civil system, those protections would be lost. Therefore, although decriminalisation may present itself as a supportive measure, it would fundamentally not result in a fairer system for the over-75s.

The Minister said that he will keep enforcement under review, and I think I heard him agree that this is not always done with sensitivity. My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) will appreciate that, given that his constituents have raised such issues with him, and I hope we can hear more about that. Enforcement for that age group should be done sensitively, and if it is not, we should be doing something about it.

Decriminalisation would also be worse for the BBC—the Minister has already made a similar point. It would send a message that it is okay not to pay the licence fee, and possibly lead to more people avoiding paying the fee. The BBC would then be left with no choice but to absorb the cost by cutting programmes and services, and reducing investment in the UK’s creative economy. The BBC has already faced a 30% real-terms cut to its funding in the past decade, and must make further savings of £285 million a year by 2027. By further starving the BBC of resources, we would all lose, from the 10-year-old on “BBC Bitesize” to over-75s keeping up with their local news through BBC local channels. We all rely on the BBC and its continued success.

The licence fee model might not be perfect—Labour would look at alternative public funding models when the end of the charter period approaches—but any successful funding model must be fair and it must ensure that the BBC can continue to do what it does best. Decriminalising the licence fee, as I have touched on, is not fairer than a civil system and it would come at the cost of substantial detriment to the BBC and therefore to us all. It is on that basis that Labour must oppose the Bill today.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 15th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

This year, there will be a third fewer British performers playing at festivals across Europe than before Brexit. Whatever the Minister says, I have heard from orchestra leaders that promoters in Europe are now less willing to book UK musicians. The difficulties of touring now include impractical cabotage rules, the steep cost of carnets, and the bureaucratic nightmare of A1 forms and CITES—convention on international trade in endangered species—certificates. How can we be a truly global Britain when the Government are not acting to remove these barriers to international touring for musicians?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

We are fortunate in this country to have some of the finest performers in the world, and I am keen to ensure that as many people across the world are able to enjoy their performances, so we will continue to work on this. As I said to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), we have already made significant progress in obtaining visa agreements so that musicians no longer have to obtain visas, and we will continue to work with the Musicians’ Union and others to make it easier in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

The accessibility of cultural organisations will be affected greatly by the Government’s tapering of orchestra tax relief and theatre tax relief from April. The Association of British Orchestras tells me that the 50% rate has enabled orchestras to survive at a time when box office and other earned income is falling. It has enabled concerts in non- traditional venues, reaching new audiences in underserved communities. However, the tapered rate will cost some national organisations as much as £3 million. Jobs will be lost, there will be cuts to productions, and outreach work, such as that we have heard about, will not be possible. Some orchestras and theatres will just not survive. Will the Minister ask the Chancellor to review urgently the reduction in orchestra and theatre tax reliefs?

[Stuart Andrew]

The hon. Lady is right to raise those important points. I assure her that both I and my ministerial colleagues in the Department have regular discussions with colleagues in the Treasury. We will continue to do so and raise the points she has highlighted.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

We all support the fairer distribution of arts funding and the principle that communities outside London should get a fairer share so that everybody everywhere can enjoy the arts, but levelling up should not be about pitting arts organisations against one another. What we have seen is an attempt to address regional disparity by shifting some funding to the regions, but doing so from a funding pot that has been shrinking since 2010. Does the Minister agree that these very short timeframes and the lack of consultation on these cuts to funding could have a very damaging impact on the ecosystem of the arts?

[Stuart Andrew]

Well, I have to say that London will still be getting the lion’s share of funding from the Arts Council. I make no apology for what we are seeing in areas such as Blackburn, which had never received any funding: four projects there are now receiving funding. Why cannot talented artists in Blackburn get the same access to those opportunities as artists in London? I do not understand the problem.

Online Safety Bill

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 12th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Adam Afriyie]

I echo the concerns expressed by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson). Some appalling abuses are taking place online, and I hope that the Bill goes some way to address them, to the extent that that is possible within the framework that it sets up. I greatly appreciate the right hon. Lady’s comments and her contribution to the debate.

I have a tight and narrow point for the Minister. In amendment 56, I seek to ensure that only pornographic material is caught by the definition in the Bill. My concern is that we catch these abuses online, catch them quickly and penalise them harshly, but also that sites that may display, for example, works of art featuring nudes—or body positivity community sites, of which there are several—are not inadvertently caught in our desire to clamp down on illegal pornographic sites. Perhaps the Minister will say a few words about that in his closing remarks.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

I rise to speak to this small group of amendments on behalf of the Opposition. Despite everything that is going on at the moment, we must remember that this Bill has the potential to change lives for the better. It is an important piece of legislation, and we cannot miss the opportunity to get it right. I would like to join my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) in welcoming the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) to his role. His work as Chair of the Joint Committee on this Bill was an important part of the pre-legislative scrutiny process, and I look forward to working in collaboration with him to ensure that this legislation does as it should in keeping us all safe online. I welcome the support of the former Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), on giving access to data to academic researchers and on looking at the changes needed to deal with the harm caused by the way in which algorithmic prompts work. It was a pity he was not persuaded by the amendments in Committee, but better late than never.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Collins]

It is because the proposal would not make such content more illegal than it is now. It is already illegal and there are already legal duties on companies to act. The regulator’s job is to ensure they have the systems in place to do that effectively, and that is what the Bill sets out. We believe that the Bill addresses the serious issue that the right hon. Lady raises in her amendments. That legal requirement is there, as is the ability to have the systems in place.

If I may, I will give a different example based on the fraud example given by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). On the Joint Committee that scrutinised the Bill, we pushed hard to have fraudulent ads included within the scope of the Bill, which has been one of the important amendments to it. The regulator can consider what systems the company should have in place to identify fraud, but also what technologies it employs to make it far less likely that fraud would be there in the first place. Google has a deal with the Financial Conduct Authority, whereby it limits advertisers from non-accredited companies advertising on its platform. That makes it far less likely that fraud will be discovered because, if the system works, only properly recognised organisations will be advertising.

Facebook does not have such a system in place. As a consequence, since the Google system went live, we have seen a dramatic drop in fraud ads on Google, but a substantial increase in fraud ads on Facebook and platforms such as Instagram. That shows that if we have the right systems in place, we can have a better outcome and change the result. The job of the regulator with illegal pornography and other illegal content should be to look at those systems and say, “Do the companies have the right technology to deliver the result that is required?” If they do not, that would still be a failure of the codes.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Minister is quoting a case that I quoted in Committee, and the former Minister, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), would not accept amendments on this issue. We could have tightened up on fraudulent advertising. If Google can do that for financial ads, other platforms can do it. We tabled an amendment that the Government did not accept. I do not know why this Minister is quoting something that we quoted in Committee—I know he was not there, but he needs to know that we tried this and the former Minister did not accept what we called for.

[Damian Collins]

I am quoting that case merely because it is a good example of how, if we have better systems, we can get a better result. As part of the codes of practice, Ofcom will be able to look at some of these other systems and say to companies, “This is not just about content moderation; it is about having better systems that detect known illegal activity earlier and prevent it from getting on to the platform.” It is not about how quickly it is removed, but how effective companies are at stopping it ever being there in the first place. That is within the scope of regulation, and my belief is that those powers exist at the moment and therefore should be used.

Oral Answers to Questions

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to the shadow Minister, Barbara Keeley.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Charities are indeed working harder than ever to support people through this cost of living crisis. They are delivering food to older people, supporting people with the stresses of poverty and working tirelessly to advocate for vulnerable people, yet charities are suffering from a big hit to their income as their running costs spiral and demand for their services rockets. I cannot find any mention that the Secretary of State has made of charities since she was appointed last year. Will the Minister admit that charities have not been a priority for this Government, and when will they take the steps to support the sector to deal with this perfect storm of pressures?

[Nigel Huddleston]

The hon. Lady is completely wrong. The Secretary of State and I talk about and to charities all the time—constantly. What she said goes against the facts. As I just outlined, there was £750 million in charity support during the pandemic, which was a specific recognition of the key role that they play.

Online Safety Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Barbara Keeley Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd June 2022 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Chris Philp)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Clause 168 is a very short and straightforward clause. Ofcom will be required to publish a variety of documents under the Online Safety Bill. The clause simply requires that this be done in a way that is appropriate and likely to bring it to the attention of any audience who are going to be affected by it. Ofcom is already familiar with this type of statutory obligation through existing legislation, such as the Digital Economy Act 2017, which places similar obligations on Ofcom. Ofcom is well versed in publishing documents in a way that is publicly accessible. Clause 168 puts the obligation on to a clear statutory footing.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

As the Minister said, clause 168 rightly sets out that the raw material the Bill requires of Ofcom is published in a way that will bring it to the attention of any audience likely to be affected by it. It will be important that all the guidance is published in a way that is easily available and accessible, including for people who are not neurotypical, or experience digital exclusion. I think we would all agree, after the work we have done on the Bill, that the subjects are complex and the landscape is difficult to understand. I hope Ofcom will make its documents as accessible as possible.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 168 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 169

Service of notices

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Chris Philp]

Clause 169 sets out the process for the service of any notice under the Bill, including notices to deal with child sexual exploitation and abuse or terrorism content, information notices, enforcement notices, penalty notices and public statement notices to providers of regulated services both within and outside the United Kingdom. The clause sets out that Ofcom may give a notice to a person by handing it to them, leaving it at the person’s last known address, sending it by post to that address or sending it by email to the person’s email address. It provides clarity regarding who Ofcom must give notice to in respect of different structures. For example, notice may be given to an officer of a body corporate.

[Barbara Keeley]

As the Minister said, clause 169 sets out the process of issuing notices or decisions by Ofcom. It mostly includes provisions about how Ofcom is to contact the company, which seem reasonable. The Opposition do not oppose clause 169.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 169 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 170

Repeal of Part 4B of the Communications Act

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to consider clauses 171 and 172.

[Chris Philp]

Clause 170 repeals the video-sharing platform regime. While the VSP and online safety regimes have similar objectives, the new framework in the Bill will be broader and will apply to a wider range of online platforms. It is for this reason that we will repeal the VSP regime and transition those entities regulated as VSPs across to the online safety regime, which is broader and more effective in its provisions. The clause simply sets out the intention to repeal the VSP.

Clause 171 repeals part 3 of the Digital Economy Act 2017. As we have discussed previously, the Online Safety Bill now captures all online sites that display pornography, including commercial pornography sites, social media sites, video sharing platforms, forums and search engines. It will provide much greater protection to children than the Digital Economy Act. The Digital Economy Act was criticised for not covering social media platforms, which this Bill does cover. By removing that section from the Digital Economy Act, we are laying the path to regulate properly and more comprehensively.

Finally, in this group, clause 172 amends section 1B of the Protection of Children Act 1978 and creates a defence to the offence of making an indecent photograph of a child for Ofcom, its staff and those assisting Ofcom in exercising its online safety duties. Clearly, we do not want to criminalise Ofcom staff while they are discharging their duties under the Bill that we are imposing on them, so it is reasonable to set out that such a defence exists. I hope that provides clarity to the Committee on the three clauses.

[Barbara Keeley]

The provisions in clauses 170 to 172, as the Minister has said, repeal or amend existing laws for the purposes of the Bill. As Labour supports the need to legislate on the issue of online safety, we will not oppose the clauses. However, I want to note that the entire process, up until the final abandonment of part 3 of the Digital Economy Act under clause 171 appears shambolic. It has been five years now since that part of the Act could have been implemented, which means five years during which children could have been better protected from the harms of pornographic content.

When the Government eventually admitted that part 3 was being ditched, the Minister at the time, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman), said that the Government would seek to take action on pornography more quickly than on other parts of the online harms regime. Stakeholders and charities have expressed concerns that we could now see a delay to the implementation of the duties on pornographic content providers, which is similar to the postponement and eventual abandonment of part 3 of the Digital Economy Act. I appreciate that the Minister gave some reassurance of his

“desire to get this done as quickly as possible”—[Official Report, Online Safety Bill Committee, 9 June 2022; c. 308.]

in our debate on clauses 31 to 33, but would it not be better to set out timeframes in the Bill?

Under clause 193, it appears that the only clauses in part 5 to be enacted once the Bill receives Royal Assent will be the definitions—clause 66 and clause 67(4)—and not the duties. That is because Ofcom is expected to issue a call for evidence, after which draft proposals for consultation are published, which then need to be agreed by the Secretary of State and laid before Parliament. There are opportunities there for delays and objections at any stage and, typically, enforcement will be implemented only in a staged fashion, from monitoring to supervision. The consultations and safeguarding processes are necessary to make the guidance robust; we understand that. However, children cannot wait another three years for protections, having been promised protection under part 3 of the Digital Economy Act five years ago, which, as I have said, was never implemented.

The provisions on pornography in part 5 of the Bill require no secondary legislation so they should be implemented as quickly as possible to minimise the amount of time children continue to be exposed to harmful content. It would be irresponsible to wait any longer than absolutely necessary, given the harms already caused by this drawn-out process.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

Thank you, Sir Roger, for chairing this meeting this morning. I want to agree with the Opposition’s points about the timing issue. If an Act will repeal another one, it needs to make sure that there is no gap in the middle and, if the repeal takes place on one day, that the Bill’s provisions that relate to that are in force and working on the same day, rather than leaving a potential set-up time gap.

On clause 170 and repealing the part of the Communications Act 2003 on video-sharing platform services, some concerns have been raised that the requirements in the Online Safety Bill do not exactly mirror the same provisions in the video-sharing platform rules. I am not saying necessarily or categorically that the Online Safety Bill is less strong than the video-sharing platform rules currently in place. However, if the legislation on video-sharing platform services is repealed, the Online Safety Act, as it will be, will become the main way of regulating video-sharing platforms and there will be a degradation in the protections provided on those platforms and an increase in some of the issues and concerns we have seen raised. Will the Minister keep that under review and consider how that could be improved? We do not want to see this getting worse simply because one regime has been switched for another that, as the Minister said, is broader and has stronger protections. Will he keep under review whether that turns out to be the case when the Act has bedded in, when Ofcom has the ability to take action and properly regulate—particularly, in this case, video-sharing platforms?

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Philp]

So far as I am aware, all the costs incurred by Ofcom in relation to the duties in the Bill can be recouped by way of fees. If that is not correct, I will write to the hon. Lady saying so, but my understanding is that any relevant Ofcom cost will be in the scope of the fees.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 42 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 43

Payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund

“(1) Section 400 of the Communications Act (destination of penalties etc) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (1), after paragraph (i) insert—

‘(j) an amount paid to OFCOM in respect of a penalty imposed by them under Chapter 6 of Part 7 of the Online Safety Act 2022;

(k) an amount paid to OFCOM in respect of an additional fee charged under Schedule (Recovery of OFCOM’s initial costs) to the Online Safety Act 2022.’

(3) In subsection (2), after ‘applies’ insert ‘(except an amount mentioned in subsection (1)(j) or (k))’.

(4) After subsection (3) insert—

‘(3A) Where OFCOM receive an amount mentioned in subsection (1)(j) or (k), it must be paid into the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.’

(5) In the heading, omit ‘licence’.”—(Chris Philp.)

This new clause provides that additional fees charged to providers under NS2 must be paid into the Consolidated Fund. The Bill already provided that monetary penalties must be paid into the Consolidated Fund, and those provisions are now placed in this clause.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 3

Establishment of Advocacy Body

“(1) There is to be a body corporate (‘the Advocacy Body’) to represent interests of child users of regulated services.

(2) A ‘child user’—

(a) means any person aged 17 years or under who uses or is likely to use regulated internet services; and

(b) includes both any existing child user and any future child user.

(3) The work of the Advocacy Body may include—

(a) representing the interests of child users;

(b) the protection and promotion of these interests;

(c) any other matter connected with those interests.

(4) The ‘interests of child users’ means the interest of children in relation to the discharge by any regulated company of its duties under this Act, including—

(a) safety duties about illegal content, in particular CSEA content;

(b) safety duties protecting children;

(c) ‘enforceable requirements’ relating to children.

(5) The Advocacy Body must have particular regard to the interests of child users that display one or more protected characteristics within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010.

(6) The Advocacy Body will be defined as a statutory consultee for OFCOM’s regulatory decisions which impact upon the interests of children.

(7) The Secretary of State may appoint an organisation known to represent children to be designated the functions under this Act, or may create an organisation to carry out the designated functions.”—(Barbara Keeley.)

This new clause creates a new advocacy body for child users of regulated internet services.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Barbara Keeley]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 3 would make provision for a statutory user advocacy body representing the interests of children. It would also allow the Secretary of State to appoint a new or existing body as the statutory user advocate. A strong, authoritative and well-resourced voice that can speak for children in regulatory debates would ensure that complex safeguarding issues are well understood, and would also actively inform the regulator’s decisions.

Charities have highlighted that the complaints and reporting mechanisms in the Bill may not always be appropriate for children. Ofcom’s own evidence shows that only 14% to 12 to 15-year-old children have ever reported content. Children who are most at risk of online harms may find it incredibly challenging to complete a multi-stage reporting and complaints process. Dame Rachel de Souza told the Committee:

“I worry that the Bill does not do enough to respond to individual cases of abuse and that it needs to do more to understand issues and concerns directly from children. Children should not have to exhaust the platforms’ ineffective complaints routes, which can take days, weeks or even months. I have just conducted a survey of 2,000 children and asked them about their experiences in the past month. Of those 2,000 children, 50% had seen harmful content and 40% had tried to get content about themselves removed and had not succeeded. For me, there is something really important about listening to children and taking their complaints into account.”––[Official Report, Online Safety Public Bill Committee, 24 May 2022; c. 16, Q22.]

A children’s advocacy body would be able to support children with redress mechanisms that are fundamentally targeted at adults. Given how many children now use the internet, that is an essential element that is missing from the Bill. That is why the super-complaints mechanism needs to be strengthened with specific arrangements for children, as advocated by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and other children’s organisations. A statutory user advocacy body could support the regulator, as well as supporting child users. It would actively promote the interests of children in regulatory decision making and offer support by ensuring that an understanding of children’s behaviour and safeguarding is front and centre in its approach.

[Kim Leadbeater (Batley and Spen) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a really valid point. As I look around the room—I mean this with no disrespect to anybody—I see that we are all of an age at which we do not understand the internet in the same way that children and young people do. Surely, one of the key purposes of the Bill is to make sure that children and young people are protected from harms online, and as the Children’s Commissioner said in her evidence, their voices have to be heard. I am sure that, like me, many Members present attend schools as part of their weekly constituency visits, and the conversations we have with young people are some of the most empowering and important parts of this job. We have to make sure that the voices of the young people who we all represent are heard in this important piece of legislation, and it is really important that we have an advocacy body to ensure that.

[Barbara Keeley]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. She is quite right: we have to remember that we do not see these things as children and young people do.

The user advocacy body that my hon. Friend has just spoken in support of could also shine a light on the practices that are most harmful to children by using data, evidence and specialist expertise to point to new and emerging areas of harm. That would enable the regulator to ensure its risk profiles and regulatory approach remain valid and up to date. In his evidence, Andy Burrows of the NSPCC highlighted the importance of an advocacy body acting as an early warning system:

“Given the very welcome systemic approach of the regime, that early warning function is particularly important, because there is the potential that if harms cannot be identified quickly, we will see a lag where whole regulatory cycles are missed. User advocacy can help to plug that gap, meaning that harms are identified at an earlier stage, and then the positive design of the process, with the risk profiles and company risk assessments, means that those harms can be built into that particular cycle.”––[Official Report, Online Safety Public Bill Committee, 24 May 2022; c. 16, Q22.]

The provision in the new clause is comparable to those that already exist in many other sectors. For example, Citizens Advice is the statutory user advocate for consumers of energy and the postal services, and there are similar arrangements representing users of public transport. Establishing a children’s user advocacy body would ensure that the most vulnerable online users of all—children at risk of online sexual abuse—receive equivalent protections to customers of post offices or passengers on a bus.

[Dame Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

The hon. Lady will recall the issue that I raised earlier in the Committee’s deliberations, regarding the importance of victim support that gives people somewhere to go other than the platforms. I think that is what she is now alluding to. Does she not believe that the organisations that are already in place, with the right funding—perhaps from the fines coming from the platforms themselves—would be in a position to do this almost immediately, and that we should not have to set up yet another body, or have I misunderstood what she has said?

[Barbara Keeley]

I do not think that the right hon. Lady has misunderstood what I said. I said that the new clause would allow the Secretary of State to appoint a new or existing body as the statutory user advocate, so it could very much be either.

New clause 3 would also rebalance the interests of children against the vocal and well-resourced regulated companies. I think that is a key argument for having an advocacy body. Without such a counterbalance, large tech companies could attempt to capture independent expert voices, fund highly selective research with the intent to skew the evidence base, and then challenge regulatory decisions with the evidence base they have created.

Those tactics are not new; similar tactics are used in other regulated sectors, such as the tobacco industry. In line with other sectors, the user advocacy body should be funded by a levy on regulated companies. That would be in line with the “polluter pays” principle in part 6 and would be neutral to the Exchequer—another reason to accept it. Compared with the significant benefits and improved outcomes it would create, the levy would represent only a minimal additional burden on companies.

There is strong support for the creation of a user advocate. Research by the NSPCC shows that 88% of UK adults who responded to a YouGov survey think that it is necessary for the Bill to introduce a requirement for an independent body that can protect the interests of children at risk of online harms, including grooming and child sexual abuse.

It is also a popular option among children. YoungMinds has said that young people do not feel they are being included enough in the drafting of the Bill. It evidenced that with research it undertook that found that almost 80% of young people aged 11 to 25 surveyed had never even heard of the Bill.

A young woman told the NSPCC why she felt a children’s advocacy body is needed. She is a survivor of online grooming, and it is worth sharing what she said in full, because it is powerful and we have not shared the voices of young people enough. She said:

“When I was 13, a man in his 30s contacted me on Facebook. I added him because you just used to add anyone on Facebook. He started messaging me and I liked the attention. We’d speak every day, usually late at night for hours at a time…He started asking for photos, so I sent some. Then he asked for some explicit photos, so I did that too, and he reciprocated…In my eyes, telling anyone in my life about this man was not an option. We need to stop putting the responsibility on a vulnerable child to prevent crime and start living in a world which puts keeping children safe first. That means putting child safety at the heart of policy. I want a statutory child user advocacy body funded by the industry levy. This would play a vital role in advocating for children’s rights in regulatory debates. Being groomed made me feel incredibly vulnerable, isolated, and weak. I felt I had no one who was on my side. Having a body stand up for the rights of children in such a vulnerable position is invaluable…it is so rare that voices like mine have a chance to be heard by policy makers. Watching pre legislative debates I’ve been struck by how detached from my lived experience they can be”—

that is very much the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen made—

“and indeed the lived experiences of thousands of others. If we want to protect children, we need to understand and represent what they need.”

I hope that the Committee will recognise the bravery of that young woman in speaking about her experiences as a survivor of online grooming. I hope that the Minister will respect the insights she offers and consider the merits of having a user advocacy body to support children and young people experiencing harms online.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I read new clause 3 in conjunction with the starred new clause 44, because it makes sense to consider the funding of the advocacy body, and the benefits of that funding, when discussing the merits of such a body. Part of that is because the funding of the advocacy body, and the fact that it needs to be funded, is key to its operation, and a key reason why we need it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman]

The new clause asks for an additional body. It is not saying the Children’s Commissioners should be done away with. The Children’s Commissioners do an amazing job, as we have recognised, but the No. 1 priority, certainly for the Children’s Commissioner in Scotland, is to protect the human rights of children; it is not to protect children online, which is what the user advocacy body would do. The body would specifically give the benefit of its experience and specifically use its resources, time and energy to advocate between Ofcom, children and children’s organisations and groups.

The Minister is right that the Bill takes massive steps forward in protecting children online, and he is right that the Children’s Commissioners do a very good job. The work done by the Children’s Commissioners in giving us evidence on behalf of children and children’s organisations has been incredibly powerful and incredibly helpful, but there is still a layer missing. If this Bill is to be future-proof, if it is to work and if it is not to put an undue burden on charitable organisations, we need a user advocacy body. The Minister needs to consider that.

I appreciate that the Government provide money to victim support organisations, which is great, but I am also making a case about potential victims. If the money only goes to those who support people who have already been harmed, it will not allow them to advocate to ensure that more people are not harmed. It will allow them to advocate on the behalf of those who have been harmed—absolutely—but it will not effectively tackle potential and emerging harms. It is a key place where the Bill misses out. I am quite disappointed that the Minister has not recognised that something may be lacking and is so keen to defend his position, because it seems to me that the position of the Opposition is so obviously the right one.

[Barbara Keeley]

I wholeheartedly agree with what the hon. Member for Aberdeen North just said, but I wish to emphasise some elements because it seems to me that the Minister was not listening, although he has listened to much that has been said. I made some specific points, used quotes and brought forward some evidence. He feels that children have been consulted in the drafting of the Bill; I cited a YoungMinds survey that showed that that was very much not what young people feel. YoungMinds surveyed a large group of young people and a very large proportion of them had not even heard of the Bill.

The evidence of the young survivor of online grooming was very powerful. She very much wanted a user-advocacy body and spoke strongly about that. The Minister is getting it wrong if he thinks that somebody in that situation, who has been groomed, would go to a parent. The quote that I cited earlier was:

“Being groomed made me feel incredibly vulnerable, isolated, and weak. I felt I had no one who was on my side.”

There were clearly adults in her life she could have gone to, but she did not because she was in that vulnerable position—a position of weakness. That is why some kind of independent advocacy body for children is so important.

I do not think children and young people do feel consulted about the Bill because the organisations and charities are telling us that. I join all Opposition Members in supporting and paying tribute to the remarkable job that the Children’s Commissioner does. I quoted her setting out her worries about the Bill. I quoted her saying that

“the Bill does not do enough to respond to individual cases of abuse and that it needs to do more to understand issues and concerns directly from children.”––[Official Report, Online Safety Public Bill Committee, 24 May 2022; c. 16, Q22.]

That is what she said. She did not say, “I’m the person charged with doing this. I’m the person who has the resource and my office has the resource.”

[Dame Maria Miller]

I hope that I did not in any way confuse the debate earlier, because these two things are very separate. The idea of a user-advocacy service and individual victim support are two separate issues. The Minister has already taken up the issue of victim support, which is what the Children’s Commissioner was talking about, but that is separate from advocacy, which is much broader and not necessarily related to an individual problem.

[Barbara Keeley]

Indeed, but the Children’s Commissioner was very clear about certain elements being missing in the Bill, as is the NSPCC and other organisations. It is just not right for the Minister to land it back with the Children’s Commissioner as part of her role, because she has to do so many other things. The provisions in the Bill in respect of a parent or adult assisting a young people in a grooming situation are a very big concern. The Children’s Commissioner cited her own survey of 2,000 children, a large proportion of whom had not succeeded in getting content about themselves removed. From that, we see that she understands that the problem exists. We will push the new clause to a Division.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.