Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill
Antonia Bance Excerpts(1 day, 10 hours ago)
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John Slinger
The number of children—[Interruption.] The number of children in poverty rose substantially.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that the statistics on below-average-income households are published annually by the Department for Work and Pensions, which is the source of the statistic that he so cleverly deployed in the course of his argument.
John Slinger
That is indeed the statistic that I was reaching for in my notes, and I thank my hon. Friend.
Even now, Opposition Members would undo progress. They would reintroduce the limit; they would make things worse. And as for Reform UK— [Hon. Members: “Where are they?”] Exactly! Where are they? We have seen populist policy hokey-cokey already today. It was probably taking place while the hon. Member for Runcorn and Helsby (Sarah Pochin) was speaking.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
I stand here as a proud representative of the Black Country and the trade union movement. Black Country people work hard. We are proud and we are resilient, but 50 years of deindustrialisation and 14 years of Tory austerity mean that wages are low, poverty is high, unemployment is high, economic inactivity is high, and many families have to rely on universal credit to make sure there is enough money to get to the end of the month. I resent the implication that areas like mine, where universal credit payments are high, are somehow “Benefits Street”.
Antonia Bance
I will get to the right hon. Member.
It was the Conservative party that changed the benefits system to give us one benefit for all circumstances, in and out of work. For the Conservatives to now attempt to invent a deserving and undeserving poor dichotomy, when they made that change to one unified system—which was the correct one—is a little bit galling.
Graham Stuart
The hon. Lady is, as ever, showing a powerful oratorical style, but it is so easy when doing that to get one’s facts wrong. Unemployment, I am sure she will recognise, was at a near record low when the Conservatives left office and has risen by more than 20% in the less than two years that Labour has run the country. I know the hon. Lady is careful with the facts and will want to retract the point about unemployment under the Conservatives. Whatever other ills she wants to attribute to us, I do not think she can genuinely attribute that.
Antonia Bance
The right hon. Member will note that I was making a point about the comparative rates in different areas of the country, including my own, and the impacts of deindustrialisation over the last 50 years, rather than about national rates.
On the Labour Benches, we deal with the world as it is—human lives in all their messy complexity—because everyone is deserving of dignity, opportunity and hope, and every child deserves a decent start. That is why I am so proud today to say this: if you get ill or lose your job, if—heaven forbid—your partner dies, or if your husband beats you up and you have to grab your kids and run, the safety net of our welfare state will once again catch you and every single one of your kids.
Since the day I came to this place and long before, I have argued for this change—I have argued that no child is responsible for the actions of their parents, that the happy event of a little one being born should not tip a family into poverty, and that whether a six-year-old eats tonight should not depend on how many sisters or brothers they have. This day has come because we have a Labour Government, and for that reason alone. I invite everyone sitting on the Opposition Benches who thinks they had something to do with this day to retract their comments and remember who those children have to thank.
Ending the two-child limit helps 5,540 children in Tipton, Wednesbury and Coseley. Whenever I go on a school visit in my area—where child poverty levels are at 50%, but not for long—I say to that assembly, to those children, “If you have more than two sisters or brothers, please raise your hand.” And I look and the teachers look at the forest of raised hands of children in larger families, and we know what that means. It means that in April, those families will open their universal credit journal or their banking app, and they will see an amount of money that is adequate to meet their family’s needs—not luxury, not extras, but adequate at last.
Some 1.6 million children nationally will be helped by the policy that we will pass tonight—one kid in every nine of our kids helped. Most of the families that will be helped—six in 10 of them—are in work. Loads of them—four in 10—have a disabled family member. Some of those families have kids so young that the parents cannot work. Not a single one of them deserves to live in poverty.
To the mums with three or more kids, using universal credit to top up low wages and high rents: this is for you. Know that far away in Westminster, a bunch of people you elected to stand up for hard-working, low-income families thought of you and your kids, and took out a gross, punitive law that kept you and your kids poor.
Dr Luke Evans
The hon. Lady talks about speaking for the public, but consistently, in all polling, 60% of Brits want to see this policy stay in place. What does she say to them?
Antonia Bance
I say to the people in my constituency and elsewhere who have raised questions with me about this policy that in order to will the ends, you have to will the means. Save the Children published this morning some polling showing that 78% of the country want to see child poverty cut. The fastest and most effective way to cut child poverty is to get rid of this punitive, gross policy that artificially inflates the number of children in poverty and creates an escalator to get more into poverty every day, with every child born.
To the Opposition parties, I would say this. I hear you say to these families, “Go out and get a job.” Most of them are already in work. Are you telling those five and six-year-olds—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. Not “you”—I have not spoken in this debate!
Antonia Bance
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I say to those on the Opposition Benches who are telling people already in work to go out and get a job: what are those people supposed to do? Are they supposed to send their five-year-olds out on a paper round to make the money add up when it does not? Do not talk to me about how families should plan better—you will never meet a better planner than a single mum in Princes End making the money stretch. Do not cry crocodile tears for kids whose dad died but when his widow needed help, we said, “Nah. You shouldn’t have had so many kids.” Do not tell me that a dad who lost his job does not deserve help for his kids because he did not predict years in advance, when planning his family, that his factory would close and he would be dumped out of work. Be honest about what supporting the two-child limit means. If you support it, you think that some kids should be hungry tonight—well, we don’t.
I have no words for the idea of the charlatans of the Reform party, who would reimpose the two-child limit, plunge thousands of children into poverty and take hundreds of pounds from families each month in order to make it cheaper to have a pint. The hon. Member for Runcorn and Helsby (Sarah Pochin) was too frit to give way to me, so I will say this to her this now. Her policy would affect Sikh children living in my constituency who have a mum or dad born in the Punjab, or children in my constituency with a mum or dad who was born in Bangladesh, Poland or Pakistan. These are British people. They are our neighbours and our friends—people who work and play by the rules. They are British citizens, but they are second-class citizens for Reform.
I was glad to see that the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse) called out Reform. I would like to see more calling out of that frankly disgusting point of view: the differentiation between different types of British citizen based on nationality and the colour of their skin that we see going on in our national political dialogue and in the Reform party. I hope that people across the country, in Scotland, in Wales and in my borough of Sandwell, will reject that division when the time comes in May—and that those in Gorton and Denton will do so as well.
I say this to my constituents who are working hard to make ends meet: I will not apologise for prioritising our kids. Every child deserves a fair start in life. As one of our greatest Prime Ministers said when launching his own child poverty mission:
“Poverty should not be a birthright. Being poor should not be a life sentence”.
We want every child to have the freedom to learn, to play sport, to sing, to dance and to get on in life, free from want and fear—the freedom to be kids. This is what a Labour Government will deliver: half a million of children out of poverty. I will be voting for the Bill tonight, and I hope other Members will too.
Oral Answers to Questions
Antonia Bance Excerpts(1 week, 2 days ago)
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Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend raises a number of issues. As I said, we are setting up the unit that Sir Charlie recommended, and I very much hope that it will work with academic expertise across the country. Her initial point about this being a win-win for employers is important, because if an employer lets someone go, they lose that experience and have to go through the effort of hiring somebody new and training them up. It is a worthwhile experience to try to help someone stay in work if they have a decline in their health over a period of time. That is good for the employee, and for the employer.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Dame Diana Johnson)
Jobcentre Plus offers tailored, flexible advice and support to help individuals get into work and overcome any barriers to employment. Work coaches offer all claimants a comprehensive menu of help, including referral to skills provision and job search support. That can include referral to local ESOL provision.
Antonia Bance
I thank the Minister for her answer. I recently visited Tipton Jobcentre Plus, and I pay tribute to the great work of the staff based there in what is a really tough jobs market. They told me that they would value the ability to refer jobseekers to an intensive ESOL course, with the expectation that the jobseeker attends every weekday for a number of months, to tackle the key barrier to sustainable employment for many, which is a lack of English skills for work. Will the Minister consider engaging with our combined authority to pilot an intensive, mandatory ESOL intervention, to get locals into work and raise incomes in my area?
Dame Diana Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for her interest and her visit to Tipton Jobcentre Plus, and for her kind words about the staff there. Jobcentre Plus in Tipton has been reviewing local ESOL availability. It is welcoming work with the combined authority to look at expanding provision, to ensure that demand is met and so that more claimants can move into work.
Welfare Spending
Antonia Bance Excerpts(3 months ago)
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Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
On the two-child benefit cap, will the hon. Member give way?
Antonia Bance
I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Do some children deserve to go hungry?
Mr Bedford
Of course not.
We on the Conservative Benches know that the hard-pressed taxpayer deserves better. I am proud that the shadow Secretary of State has outlined tough but fair proposals to cut the welfare bill. Our plan to make work pay and to stop the unfair gaming of the system would make savings of £23 billion for the Exchequer.
First, we will clamp down on the ridiculous system that enables people with mild health conditions to receive thousands of pounds from the state, when people with the exact same conditions go out to work and pay their dues. Secondly, we will reduce fraud and error in the system by bringing back face-to-face assessments, which are a means of ensuring that support is in the right hands. Finally, we will restrict benefits for non-UK nationals. We all know that migrants are attracted to the UK, because of our welfare system perhaps being too generous.
Mr Bedford
I am not giving way.
The welfare system should be there for British people who need it, not for others who perhaps just want it, and Conservative Members will never apologise for believing in aspiration over dependency.
Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
Britain’s welfare system was created as a safety net. It is a system designed to protect people who face hardship through no fault of their own, but today, that net is becoming a trap—for individuals, for families, and for this country. Any welfare system must be fair, providing support for those who truly need it and a reward for those who do the right thing—who get up in the morning, go to work and provide for their families. Right now, too many people feel that doing the right thing is punished, not rewarded. Under Labour, Britain has stopped working, because for too many, it has stopped making sense to work. There are good fiscal reasons why we Conservatives plan to cut welfare spending by £23 billion, but there is also a moral argument. By making work pay less and welfare pay more, the Government are incentivising welfare over work, which is profoundly unfair.
One of the best examples is the two-child benefit cap. We all know that the Chancellor is going to announce its removal in the Budget, and will no doubt be supported by the Liberal Democrats, by Reform UK and by other high-spending left-wing parties. She will do so because she and the Prime Minister are terrified of their own Back Benchers. The Prime Minister now says that the welfare reforms he is carrying out strike “the right balance”. Who does he think believes that? He is like brave Sir Robin in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”. Brave Sir Keir ran away—bravely ran away. When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled; bravest of the brave, Sir Keir. He was forced to retreat and turn a Bill designed to save money into one that actually cost the taxpayer more.
Why are we Conservatives committed to keeping the two-child benefit cap? It is not just because there is a limit on what the state can afford; it is also a question of fairness. Millions of families across Britain make careful choices about whether or not they can afford a child. Why should a taxpayer who has decided that they cannot afford a third or subsequent child be asked to subsidise one for someone who is not working?
Antonia Bance
One of my constituents lost her husband after they had made a decision to have three children together, as working taxpayers. Her husband had died, and she needed the help for which she had contributed: was that a lifestyle choice?
Sir Ashley Fox
When we design welfare rules, it has to be for the whole economy and all our people, and I believe that the two-child benefit cap is fair.
Under this Labour Government, unemployment has risen every month since they took office; 5,000 people a day are now signing on for sickness benefits, and, thanks in part to the Chancellor’s jobs tax, the number of graduate jobs has fallen by a third; and what is the Government’s response? It is more tax, more borrowing, more spending, and more excuses. When the Chancellor breaks her promise and raises taxes again in the Budget, what will be her excuse? Will it be 14 years of Conservative government? Will it be this mythical black hole that only she and her Back Benchers can see? The Office for Budget Responsibility cannot find it. Perhaps it will be the pandemic, or perhaps it is all because of Brexit. The Chancellor’s excuses are growing increasingly thin, and the people who elect us know that. They know that it is the Chancellor’s fault.
We will cut welfare spending by focusing support on those who truly need it, not those who can work but choose not to. We will use those savings to get the economy working again for individuals and for businesses. We will scrap punitive taxes on family businesses, family farms and local shops. We will abolish stamp duty, because when people can buy a home and when businesses can hire and grow, Britain prospers. We respect the fact that taxpayers already paying too much. We respect small businesses that cannot just pass on additional costs to someone else, and we respect the next generation, who deserve to inherit opportunity and not just the debts of this Labour Government.
Welfare Spending
Antonia Bance Excerpts(6 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Tom Hayes (Bournemouth East) (Lab)
Today, we have seen lots of colleagues taking interventions from each other. When I stand up to speak, particularly about poverty, I take interventions from another source—my mum. She will be sitting at home, watching the TV, and she will text me, because she knows that I am going to talk about my upbringing—about growing up in poverty, caring for her and my father, who were disabled and were forced out of work because the NHS and the social security system were nowhere to be seen when my mum and dad needed them. She is going to text me, as she always does, to say, “I’m sorry. I did my best.” She does not always realise that poverty is systemic—that it is about society and the structures we build. She internalises the shame and the guilt, and feels like she did not do enough.
Given what has been said today, I also fear that my mum will ask me a further question: “Why are some of those MPs suggesting, or saying, that I am a scrounger, as a person dependent on the welfare system?” I do not think that Members of Parliament intend to create that impression, but they should know that what they say perpetuates the shame and stigma of poverty, which is impossible to eradicate in one lifetime, and is passed on from one generation to the next. That is why I stood for Parliament. I am in this place to try to tackle child poverty, so that the people of Bournemouth East—the constituency I represent—do not have the same kind of childhood I had, living without very much, and relying on the love of a mum and dad who will sacrifice everything to get you to where they think you need to be, when they should be able to depend on a wider social security system. I ask Members speaking in today’s debate to reflect on the language they use, because the outside world is watching.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that his mum and dad did a brilliant job bringing him up; that mums and dads in all sorts of circumstances do their level best, bringing up their kids; that they are proud—as my hon. Friend’s parents no doubt are of him—of the job they have done, and the contribution that their children make; and that a person’s circumstances of birth do not define who they are going to become?
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
In the Black Country we work hard, we are proud and we do not lack for personal responsibility, but forces bigger than any individual—deindustrialisation and the cruel 14 years of austerity—mean that good folk earn less, are sicker, and have fewer chances and fewer choices than people elsewhere. As I stand here every day in this place, the kids living behind the doors that I knocked on during the general election and every week since live in my heart, because one in two of them—one in two—in my ends grow up in poverty. That means every second family, every second door, every second kid, and in the 12th most deprived borough in the country, that is our share of the 4.5 million kids growing up in poverty in this national emergency.
I want to thank the churches, mosques, gurdwaras and community organisations in my ends that are serving dignity, love and solidarity alongside food parcels, warm clothes and hot food. But I will also say this: when the state walked away from us, took money from our councils, closed our Sure Starts, cut the social security that we have paid for, and watched as good jobs in heavy industry fled and nothing replaced them, we picked ourselves up, we helped one another and we somehow kept the wolf from the door.
Community self-defence is now exhausted, but I say to those children that at long last the cavalry are coming. In this rich country, no one will go without the basics, and every child will matter again. Just look at the start we have made—ending no-fault evictions, building council homes and banning zero-hours contracts. This autumn, people will see the scale of our ambition in the child poverty strategy. The down payments we have already made include free school meals for every family on universal credit, and free breakfast clubs, including at St John Bosco primary school in West Bromwich in my constituency. There will be family hubs in every single town, and we are fixing local government finance so that it once again takes account of deprivation and of places such as mine.
Darren Paffey (Southampton Itchen) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an incredibly powerful speech about the resilience of her community and the action that this Labour Government are taking. Her constituents, like mine, are being lectured on personal responsibility. Does she share my astonishment that, despite the opportunity to take some responsibility themselves for a mini-Budget that crashed our economy, and for 3 million people out of work and a welfare system out of control, we are hearing no apology or personal responsibility from the Conservative party?
Antonia Bance
My hon. Friend will be unsurprised to hear that I am awaiting that apology, both for that and for the 900,000 more children in poverty under the previous Government.
As I was saying, that is a down payment on the child poverty strategy to come. I know that I do not need to urge ambition on my hon. Friends on the Front Bench. They carry in their hearts every day the children who did not eat last night. They know that whether you have dinner this evening should not depend on how many siblings you have.
There is no need to listen to those on the Opposition Benches, who pushed up child poverty by 900,000. Come and walk around Friar Park or Princes End, meet those kids and tell them why someone’s choices, far away here in London, mean they have no tea tonight. It is time they apologised to the children of this country. And there is no point listening to the absent bandwagon johnnies of Reform. If they cared about people on low wages, they would not have voted against increasing statutory sick pay, banning zero-hours contracts or increasing the national minimum wage. As always, it is Labour that stands for working-class families.
Welfare Reform
Antonia Bance Excerpts(10 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Liz Kendall
I very much agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments. I do not pretend that this will change overnight, and I know it is a huge agenda, but we are in politics to make a difference—and a big difference—because, as I have said, life is short, and there is much we need to do.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
Many of us in this place have fought alongside parents of severely disabled people, not least against our broken SEND system. Can the Secretary of State reassure those parents, who may be looking at the proposed changes to UC health eligibility for under-22s and feeling deeply dismayed right now?
Liz Kendall
We are consulting on this proposal, and we want to make sure that those severely disabled people who will never work will be protected. However, I also know that there are many young people with special educational needs and learning difficulties who, with the right support, can make a contribution, live independently and get work. I am working closely with my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary to get this right, because it is really important that we ensure all young people get the support and opportunities they deserve.
Oral Answers to Questions
Antonia Bance Excerpts(1 year, 1 month ago)
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Alison McGovern
I am not entirely sure that the issues the hon. and learned Gentleman raises are completely within my responsibilities. However, DWP colleagues in Northern Ireland work closely with business, and I am sure that they will continue to do so, whatever the prevailing economic circumstances.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
We are committed to reviewing universal credit to ensure that it is doing the job that we need it to. We have started by announcing the fair repayment rate in the Budget, and we will keep Parliament updated.
Antonia Bance
Twenty-seven per cent of working-age people in Tipton, Wednesbury and Coseley rely on universal credit. I welcome the fair repayment rate announced in the Budget, but a major reason for benefit debt is the design flaw in universal credit, which means that claimants must wait five weeks for their first payment. Will the Minister confirm that the five-week wait will be considered in the review of universal credit?
Sir Stephen Timms
I can assure my hon. Friend that advances of up to 100% of potential universal credit entitlements are available urgently during the first assessment period of a claim, but she is right to raise concerns about the five-week wait. I commend to her the excellent report on this subject published by the Work and Pensions Committee in the last Parliament. The point she has raised is definitely one that we need to consider.
Food Banks
Antonia Bance Excerpts(1 year, 2 months ago)
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Danny Kruger
I do recognise the extent of the problem of in-work poverty and of people reliant on benefits to sustain their incomes and on additional support from the outside. I do not accept that that was a new phenomenon; in fact, I will come to the last Government’s record in a moment.
Antonia Bance (Tipton and Wednesbury) (Lab)
One of the last Government’s best policies was the introduction of a £20 additional uplift to universal credit during the pandemic. It stopped poverty growing in its tracks and showed the impact of increasing access to money—not to be facile—on poverty. Does the hon. Member share my hope that the Government will bring forward their review of universal credit, as promised in the Labour manifesto?
Danny Kruger
Yes, indeed; I very much look forward to that review coming along soon.
Many hon. Members have mentioned the record of the last Government. I recognise the extent of low wage growth and in-work poverty that we have seen. If we look at absolute poverty, however, which is the measure that we should ultimately be looking at if we are thinking about the extent of destitution and food poverty, 1 million fewer people are in absolute poverty after housing costs in 2024 than in 2010. That includes 100,000 fewer children, 200,000 fewer pensioners, and 700,000 fewer working-age people, so the last Government made a real impact on absolute poverty. Overall, there are 1 million fewer workless households than in 2010.
Much of that impact was driven by the introduction of universal credit. Those of us who worked in the social sector before 2010 might remember the labyrinthine complexity and the perverse incentives that were created by the mess of the benefit system that we inherited in 2010, which we rationalised and improved. It is also worth mentioning the enormous £100 billion cost of living package that the last Government put together in the light of the energy shock.
Let us turn to what this Government are doing. The most significant policy that they have announced so far on poverty is the withdrawal of the winter fuel payment. Some 10 million pensioners will be denied that essential benefit, including 70% of disabled pensioners. That is surely not a record that hon. Members are proud of.