Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Antoinette Sandbach Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con)]

There was a degree of shock among the members of the Bill Committee at the evidence of employers who were not prepared to give employees leave if they were pregnant and then lost their child. I and many other Members were horrified by the lack of compassion and understanding being demonstrated by some people towards their employees at a deeply personally distressing time. I welcome my hon. Friend’s amendments that address the issue, which is an important reason for why we are being forced to legislate in this area.

[Kevin Foster]

My hon. Friend is right. The vast majority of employers will be considerate and understanding and will look to support their employees. At the end of the day, they will generate a lot of loyalty in an employee that might well be repaid in a positive way at a later date. It is not a burden for an employer to be good to their employees. Reducing staff turnover can actually be a huge boost for a business. Employees can get experience and develop skills and will stay if they feel that the situation is more of a partnership than a “them and us” relationship.

Unfortunately, however, there is still an undoubted need to legislate. The majority of people would not discriminate against others based on their gender, sexual orientation, race or ethnicity, but there are some who would, which is why we have the law and the relevant sanctions in place.

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Apart from the wider scope that could and should be given to the Bill to support bereaved parents who might otherwise be excluded from it, it also—I say to the Minister—makes sense from a purely financial perspective to offer as much financial and employment support as we can during the early, critical days following the bereavement.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

I remember speaking at an event on child loss at which a solicitor who had acted in many, many cases where negligence had been involved told me that it was exceptionally rare for the parent to go back to the workplace because of the trauma. That would be less likely, as the hon. Lady says, if the parent had the ability to take some time out to deal with the grief. There is also action on the national bereavement care pathway that is at a pilot stage at the moment. These two things combined are likely to give parents a level of support that simply has not been there so far.

[Patricia Gibson]

The hon. Lady’s point is very well made, and I could not agree more. The initial input at the early stages through the level of support that can be offered in the workplace under the law is so important if we are going to help people to recover in any form from the trauma. It is better than having them parked out of the workplace, economically inactive and floundering alone in their grief with no support, as has been the case up until now. We lose too many marriages, and too many potential contributors to the workforce and society, because people do not get the support that they need.

The amendments I have tabled are extremely important. I will not press them to a vote, because a private Member’s Bill is such a fragile thing, and nobody wants to do anything that will take the entire matter off the table, but I urge the Minister to give those matters serious consideration and really reflect on including them in the Bill.

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[Michelle Donelan]

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak. My heart goes out to everybody who has been affected by a bereavement. I take my hat off to all Members who have contributed to the debate who have personally endured loss themselves. It is a very brave and remarkable thing to share with the House. Their experience will enable others to have a better experience.

I cannot imagine going through parental bereavement, but if my constituents or I were to do so, I would expect employers to be generous. The Bill is meant to ensure the minimum of what employers should give to their employees. It is important to note, however, that some microbusinesses or small businesses just do not have the capacity to pay staff for a period of leave, and a member of staff might not be able to afford unpaid leave, so the provision of a statutory element is a great step forward. It will give employees more freedom to take the time to grieve and to deal with their loss. It will also give employers the benefit of knowing that they will be able to facilitate that while keeping their business afloat. I think that that is the right thing to do. It is right for taxpayers to be contributing. We have heard today that the cost will be £3.2 million, and I would argue that this is a very good use of that money. I know that my constituents will be delighted as I have already received a number of pieces of correspondence from them echoing that view.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

For those who lose a child in childbirth or before birth—for example a stillbirth—there would have been a cost to the taxpayer, had the pregnancy gone as planned, through payments for maternity or paternity leave. I would therefore argue that although the Bill will involve a small additional cost for the taxpayer, the burden would have been borne by the taxpayer had there been a birth without complications. This measure is a very important way to support parents during an utterly tragic time in their lives.

[Michelle Donelan]

I completely agree. The state and the taxpayer have a responsibility to contribute. If someone is given the amount of time they need to recover, the long-term benefit for businesses and the economy will more than pay back any financial cost.

The Bill is a modern and compassionate measure. It is surprising that most countries do not already make such provision. The Lullaby Trust says that the UK will lead the way with this legislation, and I hope that other countries will follow suit, because this is the right thing to do.

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The Work and Pensions Committee heard evidence about a key case. Four large firms appeared before us, including Amazon and Hermes. The person giving evidence about gig economy workers at Hermes referred to a case in which a shift worker—someone who was driving delivery vans—had to have somebody available to cover for them if they were unable to work, yet they were meant to be in self-employment.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

We heard similar evidence on the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, and it is a real concern.

[James Cartlidge]

It is a real concern. This whole subject of the changing nature of work is fundamental, and it matters because it gives rise to this question: if someone has been “working” for one of these companies—possibly as a gig economy worker, but certainly in that grey area between employment and self-employment—and they suffer the terrible tragedy of bereavement, are we really saying, particularly if they have been working primarily for one company for many months, that they should not enjoy this right? That is a key question; it is what the whole Taylor review boils down to.

When we talk about the nature of someone’s work, most of us have an instinctive understanding of what employment looks like. The review puts it well:

“Ultimately, if it looks and feels like employment, it should have the status and protection of employment.”

In other words, those people should have these sorts of rights. That is incredibly important.

I shall not stray from the subject, Madam Deputy Speaker, but there are a whole load of issues, including auto-enrolment, relating to how we bring greater security to those who are caught up in a flexible and dynamic workforce in which the need for flexibility can sometimes mean that people are exploited. To all intents and purposes, they have given their employment to one firm, yet they have not been given the same security and rights that they would expect for having reduced their own freedoms. That is the exchange that underpins an employment contract.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton will be able to give further information on the extent to which the Bill will benefit those in the specific category of worker. They are not the normal self-employed—if someone starts a business, they would not expect to have the same rights—but the 1.3 million people whom we know of in the gig economy. If they have offered their work on a pseudo-employed basis for many months and then suffer bereavement, my view is that there is a strong case for suggesting that they should have the same rights as the employed.

Finally, on the amendments relating to the cut-off point, which is a difficult issue, the moral argument that was set out very well by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran is very hard to argue with. Who knows precisely what the cost would be of her amendments and those tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay on the cut-off point—my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire made an estimate, and I am sure it would not be many, many millions—but I want to understand the extent to which those who would suffer from the cut-off point because their child was over 18 would still be protected under the provisions on reasonableness. After I intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), he confirmed that his understanding was that they would be protected, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, but I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that someone would still be protected, even if their child was above the cut-off point, because that is very important.

In conclusion, this is a powerful Bill, and our proceedings are a classic example of Parliament coming together to deliver changes that appear small in terms of the legislation and the cost, but that will be enormously beneficial to those struck by a pain that is, for me, beyond understanding. I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for those who suffer bereavement. We should all be proud of this work. I hope that the Bill proceeds and encourage everyone in the House to support it.

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[Antoinette Sandbach]

It is a huge pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) and hear his support for the Bill, together with that of so many others. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince) said that he spoke to Isabel Hardman of The Spectator about his aim to introduce parental bereavement pay. My aim when I spoke to Judith Woods of The Telegraph—probably in the same week—was to speak out so that we could have the best possible practice, support and information for bereaved parents.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). I had the honour of appearing—on the “Victoria Derbyshire” show, I believe —with his constituent, Annika Dowson, to discuss some of the issues of grief and bereavement facing parents. We have kept in touch ever since and, like so many parents who have been in our position, she has been stalwart in this area, raising huge amounts of money for her local hospital and its bereavement suite.

I pay tribute to other hon. Members who have supported the Bill but cannot be here today, including my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) and the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft), who spoke incredibly powerfully in Baby Loss Awareness Week about her experience. The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) has also been really helpful; again, she has spoken movingly about her experience of stillbirth. I had the pleasure of sitting on the Bill Committee with the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson). I had a friend who went through an experience similar to hers, and it was simply devastating to see.

The fact that all of us have spoken out and shared our experiences has meant that the issue has been looked at in a completely different way. As the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said, it has led to a real, cross-party political will to ensure that parents who go through this utterly devastating and tragic event get an entitlement to some form of support. It is historically significant that we are extending the benefit system in this way to give support to bereaved parents. It is also historic, as benefit extensions do not happen very often. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, who has acted throughout with honour and decency. He has worked assiduously across the parties to ensure that the Bill is in the best possible shape and, as the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran put it, to carry the valuable and delicate china of a private Member’s Bill to this point.

About 8,000 parents suffer the loss of a child each year. As we have heard, most employers understand how utterly devastating that is for the family involved, but not all of them appreciate that or have been willing to give their employees leave. Frankly, that is shocking in this day and age. We are making a real advance in the protection we give to employees. Hopefully, that will have an effect on the general approach to bereavement. The sandwich generation are looking after not only their children, but parents with very complex needs. I hope that the Bill sends a signal to employers to be compassionate, and to treat their employees with decency and understanding. That will be repaid in spades when they return to work.

I thank the Minister and the Government for the support they are putting in place for bereaved parents who have lost a child. Such time off is incredibly important, particularly as other children in the family will be affected, and will need their parents to support them and explain what is going on. They need to get through the fog of devastation and loss to try to find the parameters of where normality—[Interruption.]

[Michael Tomlinson]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. She is making such a powerful speech. I well remember the very first time I heard her speak so powerfully—during the Adjournment debate to which I referred a few moments ago. I have perhaps allowed her 30 seconds to compose herself before she concludes her remarks.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. We are making history today. I hope that parents who face child bereavement in the future will feel there is a little bit of grace and a little bit of space for them to be able to deal with what is an utter tragedy.