European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Anneliese Dodds Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments & Ping Pong: House of Commons & Ping Pong
Wednesday 22nd January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Steve Barclay]

Less than a fortnight has passed since we last debated the Bill in this House. Since then the House of Lords has sat for nearly 40 hours to debate more than 100 amendments. The noble Lords in the other place have asked this House to think again on five matters and I will address each in turn.

Turning first to Lords amendment 1 on citizens’ rights tabled by the noble Lord Oates, I know that noble Lords share the Government’s commitment to putting the rights and welfare of citizens at the heart of our withdrawal negotiations. The first part of the amendment establishes a declaratory system and the second part requires Ministers to bring forward regulations making provisions for those with declaratory rights to apply for a document evidencing their rights. This amendment would mean the successful EU settlement scheme in its current form would need to be abandoned, because there would be no need to register if people could later rely on a declaration that they were already in the UK. This would make null and void the 2.8 million applications and the 2.5 million grants of status that have already been completed. The Government would, under this amendment, also be unable to issue digital status to EU citizens without also issuing physical documents, including to those already holding a digital status under the current scheme. That would increase the risk of fraud and raises costs to Government and citizens.

[Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Surely the Secretary of State is aware that his own Ministers have also been stating that it might be possible for people to print off emails, for example, to provide that confirmation. There seems to be a huge number of mixed messages here. He will also be aware that many of those citizens are already being asked for that proof by employers. Surely the Government should deal with the system as it is actually being used, rather than his imagined reality of it, which is rather different.

[Steve Barclay]

The hon. Lady anticipates my next point, which is on the interplay between a physical document and the digital status, because, as she knows, digital status is more secure than any physical document could ever be, and furthermore all successful applicants receive a confirmation letter and can download secure share codes which can be printed or sent to anybody an EU citizen might need to show their status to in the future. The key is the number that is there, and digital status is the most secure, but of course people can print off the email that they receive.

The vote to leave included a desire for greater control of our borders. We need to be able to differentiate between EU citizens who arrived pre-exit and have rights set out in this Bill and EU citizens who arrive after we leave, who will be treated the same as the rest of the world under the forthcoming immigration Bill. Despite the good intentions, a declaratory status does not allow for that differentiation, so I urge Members to reject this amendment.

Leaving the EU: Parliamentary Vote

Anneliese Dodds Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2018 Westminster Hall

[Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 205169 relating to Parliament’s vote on the deal for the UK’s exit from the EU.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Austin. I am pleased that the lead petitioner is in the Public Gallery to hear the debate. I present this petition on behalf of the over 113,000 people who signed it. The petition is quite straightforward:

“Parliament’s vote on the Brexit deal must include an option to remain in the EU.

A lesser of two evils choice between a bad deal and no deal is not acceptable. Our country deserves better than Hobson’s choice, and our MPs should be allowed to vote with their conscience to deliver what they believe is best for the country.”

It is either fortuitous or a strange coincidence that we are debating this petition the day before the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill returns to the House of Commons, having been through the House of Lords, where it was significantly amended—in fact, some might say, put through the wringer in several important ways.

The question of Parliament’s role in Brexit has been running since the referendum—from Gina Miller successfully taking a case to the High Court in 2016 to argue that the Government could not trigger article 50 without consulting Parliament, through to the Government’s announcement at the start of the year that they would put the final deal agreed between the UK and the European Union to a vote in both Houses of Parliament. The Government’s position is that if the Commons does not approve the agreement they present to Parliament, the UK will leave the European Union on 29 March without a deal. That is a “take it or leave it” decision.

[Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the speech she is making and to the petitioners for raising this important subject. Does she agree that amendment 19, which is due to be voted on this week, would prevent the kind of Hobson’s choice the petitioners are concerned about? Over 600 people in my constituency appear to be concerned about that, because they have signed this petition.

[Liz Twist]

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend, and I will touch on that point later in my speech.

If the agreement that the Government present to Parliament is not approved, the UK will leave the European Union on 29 March without a deal. That is a “take it or leave it” decision or, as the petitioners describe it, “Hobson’s choice”, with no option of saying, as the petitioners do, that Parliament’s vote on the Brexit deal must include an option to remain in the European Union. No matter what the outcome, there will be no chance for Members of Parliament to say, “It is better for us to stay in the EU than to accept the deal that the Government manage to negotiate, whatever that ends up being”—something the petitioners believe is essential.

The Labour party has said all along that Parliament should have a meaningful vote on the terms of any withdrawal agreement the Prime Minister reaches with the European Union. It cannot be acceptable, as the Government originally proposed, for the Prime Minister simply to force through a deal on an issue of this importance or, as the Government now propose, for Parliament to have only a binary, “take it or leave it” choice. That is why Labour has repeatedly tried to amend the withdrawal Bill—to ensure that Parliament has a truly meaningful vote, and we have seen much discussion about what a meaningful vote means.

On Tuesday and Wednesday we will return to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and consider some of the 192 amendments made as it went through the House of Lords. For this debate, however, there is one particularly significant amendment, which is the subject of much discussion in the press, as well as inside and outside Parliament, and most of us will know from our constituents contacting us how much discussion there is about it. Amendment 19 looks at the role of Parliament in approving the outcome of negotiations with the European Union. The amendment, which was proposed by Viscount Hailsham and agreed by the Lords, says:

“Her Majesty’s Government must follow any direction in relation to the negotiations under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union which has been—

(a) approved by a resolution of the House of Commons, and

(b) subject to the consideration of a motion in the House of Lords.”

That amendment and the amendments on the customs union have the potential to give Parliament a much greater say on the final shape of the Brexit negotiations, but these are of course highly contentious amendments, which the Government are resisting. We must wait for the outcome of votes in the next two days to see what actually happens. As my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) said, the Lords amendment would ensure that, if any withdrawal agreement is rejected by the House of Commons, it would be for Parliament—not the Prime Minister—to decide the next steps via a resolution of the House. The amendment would also ensure that, in the event of no deal being reached, it would again be for Parliament to decide what happens next.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill raises important questions about the powers of Parliament. Those who argued for Brexit talked about taking back control. Many hon. Members and other people feel that it is important that Parliament has a strong role in shaping the negotiations, just as we must have real scrutiny of how European legislation is translated into our domestic law, which is also central to the Bill. The petitioners believe, however, that the choice before Members of Parliament must include the option to remain in the European Union, and not simply to change the exit deal, whatever that turns out to be. They believe that the no deal option is not acceptable. They are asking the Government to look at this again and to allow Members of Parliament to vote on a remain option. They are asking not for the referendum to be rerun, but for Members of Parliament—nearly two years on from the referendum, and with a great deal more detailed information out there on the real issues and on the real costs of Brexit to our economy and our communities—to have the option to vote for remain when the Government put the final agreement to the vote.

As MPs, we need to think very carefully about how we vote, bearing in mind the wishes of our constituents, how they voted—to leave or to remain—and whether their views have changed. It is my job, however, to speak for the petitioners on this important issue. They are clear that there should be a remain option when it comes to the vote.

As with all petitions, the Government have already responded online to this petition. They said that the final vote will be as they originally proposed:

“The British people voted to leave and the Government will implement their decision. The vote on the final deal will give Parliament the choice to accept the agreement or leave the EU with no agreement.”

I will let the Minister make her own response to the petitioners in more detail and explain that position to them, but it is pretty uncompromising. Barring a sudden change of mind from the Government, which I am sure the petitioners would welcome, it seems they may be disappointed in the Minister’s response.

The petitioners strongly believe that when it comes to the vote in Parliament, we, as Members of Parliament, should be given a remain option, based on the information now before us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Austin, for allowing me to make a short speech. I apologise for being in the main Chamber, first for the Yemen statement and then for the G7 statement, but I had put in a request to speak in this debate when neither of those were scheduled.

I want to comment on a couple of points made by the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Drew). He described the referendum two years ago as dreadful, and I agree with him on that point. I do not, however, agree with his conclusion that we should not have another referendum. It does not automatically follow that if we have a final say on the deal, or a people’s vote, that that referendum would be dreadful as well. That is not necessarily the case. From talking to people on both sides of the argument, I have found that the discussion we should have had before the referendum is the one that we have had over the past two years. People’s awareness of what it means is therefore much greater now than it was prior to June 2016. I am confident that, although any such campaign will never be 100% clean—I am certain of that—it will be a hell of a lot cleaner than the one we had two years ago, particularly if we make sure that certain safeguards are put in place, as has happened in referendums in other countries.

For instance, an independent arbiter can examine the claims made by both camps. I accept that, two years ago, people on both sides of the argument told porkies. They were, on occasion, mendacious and fantastical. On other occasions they were deluded, and in some cases their claims were all three of those things at once. We could have someone with the ability to say, “No, you cannot say that”, and clamp down on it straightaway.

We also need a much higher degree of awareness and checks and balances in social media campaigning, so that every single advert that goes out on Facebook—if we allow it—has the equivalent of the “printed and published by” that appears on the bottom of our leaflets, and people can see who it comes from. If it comes from me, they will see, “Tom Brake, Liberal Democrats”, and know it is an advert funded by me. Equally, if it comes from my Conservative or Labour opponent, they will know that as well. If it has nothing on the bottom of it and has therefore come from President Putin, they can draw their own conclusions about the possible source of that particular advert in a referendum campaign. I think we can do things differently.

There is another reason why opinions are so divided, to use the phrase of the hon. Member for Stroud. There is nothing to suggest that, as the Government steamroller through the proposals that some Conservative Brexiters love so much, the nation will not be anything other than even more divided that it was when it voted in June 2016. He might think otherwise. He might think that the Government will somehow, miraculously, manage the process, but they have not even managed to unite their own Front Benchers, so how will they unite the country behind their proposals? Frankly, that will not happen. If we do leave, we will be as divided as we were before June 2016.

In some ways, therefore, having a final say on the deal, or a people’s vote, gives everyone the opportunity to look at what it means now that we have an understanding of what is involved. Rather than the European Union being about to give us billions of pounds, the truth is far from it: we are about to give it billions of pounds—up to £40 billion. If people understand the extent of what is involved, they will go into the campaign with a clearer understanding. If a people’s vote were to take place and we had a 10-week campaign that was relatively fair and properly administered, and if the country voted 52-48 for whatever deal the Government had secured, as far as I am concerned that would be it. We would have voted to leave the European Union and we would go, even though I dislike intensely that approach. At least most people would feel that they had had the campaign to which they were entitled—but never got—in June 2016. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Stroud that proceeding in the way proposed by the Government will ensure that the country is not extremely divided.

The petition gives rise to the question whether there should be a people’s vote, so I suppose the first thing to ask is whether one is wanted. The hon. Member for Stroud said that there has not been a shift in people’s views. Most polls suggest that there has been a slight shift in favour of remain. In Northern Ireland, which perhaps has more knowledge than anywhere else of the impact of Brexit, there has been a very large shift in support for staying in the EU.

[Anneliese Dodds]

I gently point out that this debate is not on the subject of having a people’s vote, but on Parliament’s ability to have more options as part of a meaningful vote, including—specifically for the petitioners—the option of remaining in the EU. I just want to clarify that, because many thousands of people signed the petition and it is important that we talk about the exact subject.

[Tom Brake]

I am very happy to do that. Of course, I think of Members of Parliament as people. Clearly we are entitled to a people’s vote, as are the people.

Does Parliament want to have a vote on this subject? Certainly, the Lords have made their views clear. From votes that have taken place so far, it seems there is perhaps not yet a majority in the House of Commons in favour of a people’s vote or a parliamentary vote that would allow us to choose between the deal the Government secure and staying in the European Union. That would be a meaningful vote. Parliament’s meaningful vote cannot be a choice between a deal that we know will be bad—the Government’s impact assessments have told us that whatever deal they come up with will be bad for us and shrink the UK economy—and crashing out of the European Union, which we know would be an absolute catastrophe and lead to blockages at every single port and airport around the country and to huge job losses. That is a not a meaningful vote. A meaningful vote would be one where the Prime Minister conceded that Members of Parliament could send it back.

Frankly, I think the Government are going to come up with a deal that no one likes. Which Member of Parliament, when the Government come forward with a deal, will stand up and say, “This is a brilliant deal—I absolutely love it”? I do not think a single Member of Parliament will stand up and say, “The deal the Government have struck is brilliant.” I will not, because I am a remainer, but nor will the members of the European Research Group, because they can see that the Government are making compromises. I suspect we will end up in a position where Members of Parliament are presented with a deal that no one will support.