Members’ Paid Directorships and Consultancies Debate
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Angela Eagle
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Members’ Paid Directorships and Consultancies
Angela Eagle Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. A manuscript amendment to the Opposition motion on paid directorships and consultancies and hon. Members has been tabled by the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) to add at the end of the motion the words, “or be paid trade union officials.”
As I have said, I have already selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Under Standing Order No. 31, when a Minister moves an amendment on an Opposition day, the question before the House is that the original words stand part of the question. It is on that motion that debate proceeds and, at the end, the House is invited to vote on it. If the Opposition motion is agreed to by the House, it becomes a resolution of the House. If the Opposition motion is disagreed to by the House, the Standing Order obliges the Chair to put forthwith the question on the amendment moved by a Minister. If that is agreed to, the Chair will declare the main question, as amended, to be agreed to.
The situation is, therefore, that once a Minister has moved an amendment to an Opposition motion on an Opposition day, it is not possible for a second amendment, whether manuscript or not, to the Opposition motion to be put to the House. Assuming that the Leader of the House will move his amendment, I cannot therefore select the manuscript amendment.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker, in the light of your ruling. The manuscript amendment was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) in response to something that the Prime Minister said, in Prime Minister’s questions, that he wanted to happen. If the Leader of the House were to withdraw or not move his amendment to the motion, would it then be possible under Standing Order No. 31 for the manuscript amendment tabled by my hon. Friend to be moved?
Mr Speaker
I can confirm that if the Leader of the House were to decide not to move his amendment, it would be open to me to decide whether to select the manuscript amendment. That is indeed the factual position. We should now proceed with the debate.
Ms Angela Eagle
I beg to move,
That this House believes that, as part of a wider regulatory framework for hon. Members’ second jobs, from the start of the next Parliament no hon. Members should be permitted to hold paid directorships or consultancies.
I wonder whether the Leader of the House could indicate—he could even shout over the Dispatch Box—before I begin my speech whether, in the light of the attempts by the new chair of the parliamentary Labour party to give the Prime Minister what he said he wanted at Prime Minister’s questions today, it is his intention not to move his amendment to today’s motion.
The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr William Hague)
I will most certainly move the Government amendment today. It is an excellent amendment. It is not my role to facilitate the Opposition’s making up their policy as they go along throughout the afternoon.
Ms Eagle
I want to make it clear that we are actually trying to facilitate what the Prime Minister said he wanted during Prime Minister’s questions. We are not making up our policy as we go along; we are trying to include all views in it. It is in that spirit that I want to open the debate and move the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, which proposes that this House bans MPs from holding paid directorships or consultancies.
Ms Eagle
Let me finish my first sentence. If our manuscript amendment is accepted, the motion would also ban paid trade union officials. The public deserve to be safe in the knowledge that every Member of Parliament works and acts in the interests of their local constituents, and not in the interests of anyone paying them.
Ms Eagle
Let me make a little bit of progress and then I will give way.
I note that, unusually, the Government have tabled an amendment that simply restates the status quo and would completely obliterate the Opposition motion. I intend to deal with all that, but first I want to take a few minutes to deal with the circumstances in which the House of Commons finds itself, and argue that the time has come to make a decisive break with the status quo on Members’ remunerated interests. I believe the current situation has become untenable.
I do not intend to talk about the detail of what was revealed in the “Dispatches” programme on Monday. I think we should concentrate in this debate on developing a solution to this recurring problem. Those events are being dealt with by the independent Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, and that investigatory process must take its course, although that I note that the court of public opinion has already pretty firmly made up its mind. If the rules were clear and easy to follow, rather than riddled with grey areas and open to endless convenient interpretation, perhaps we would not find ourselves repeatedly having to deal with newspaper headlines such as the ones we have witnessed once more this week. It is undeniably true that these headlines bring this place into disrepute, as far as voters are concerned. Theirs is the opinion, I believe, that we must take the most seriously. They are, after all, the people we have been sent here to represent.
Philip Davies
I just wondered on what basis the Leader of the Opposition thought he was an authority on being a world-leading constituency MP. He happens to be my mum’s MP and the MP for the area in which I was born and brought up. It happens to be the consensus of opinion there that he does not really care about Doncaster. He is hardly ever there. In fact, he is known locally as Ed Moribund. Why should those of us who work hard in our constituencies week in, week out take any lessons from the Leader of the Opposition on what it takes to be an effective constituency MP?
Ms Eagle
I am rather sorry I gave way to the hon. Gentleman. What we are trying to do with this debate is take a cool, hard look at the situation that faces the House in relation to its rules on outside interests, and the experience we have all had of them in this Parliament and over time. This is not about partisan views about who is a good or bad MP in their constituency. That is for the voters to decide, and they will decide that in their own way on 7 May. As a Parliament and a legislature, we all have a duty to ensure that the rules by which we operate are kept up to date and are fit for purpose. One of the arguments I am trying to make today is that we are not now in that situation, and we have to take radical action to ensure that we bring ourselves back in line with the levels of conduct that our constituents expect of all of us.
Gregory Barker
On that point, I do not think anybody in this House is condoning the breach of rules that exist for a very clear purpose. However, if we are talking about being good parliamentarians and representing our constituents, how much time over the last week, or in any week this month, have the hon. Lady and her shadow Cabinet colleagues spent away from this place, neither in their constituency nor performing their parliamentary duties, but instead campaigning on behalf of the Labour party in the country? How much time are they spending doing that, rather than pursuing their parliamentary duties?
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
I hope that my hon. Friend will address the argument that a second job helps MPs to keep in touch. My view is that visiting local schools, going to local businesses and workplaces to talk to managers and the work force, spending time with local charitable organisations, and going to day care centres for the elderly is how we should keep in touch with our constituents. That is the work that we should value.
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend is right. There are many ways of keeping in touch that do not involve the exchange of large amounts of money.
An extremely bad and unfair impression of the motives of all Members of this House has now been formed, and it is being reinforced by this latest occurrence. Let me be clear: being a Member of Parliament is an extremely demanding and tough job, and it is done with integrity and dedication by the vast majority of colleagues in all parties. Unfortunately, however, the perception is growing that some MPs are in it only for what they can get, rather than for what they can give, and that is not an impression that we can allow to fester any longer. “You’re all in it for yourselves”—how many times have we heard that said?
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
I have some sympathy with the motion, but why does it not cover somebody who earns £15,000 outside this place lecturing, while someone earning a lesser amount through a directorship is covered? It seems a little confusing to some of us.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady also clarify whether she is talking about cash payments only, or whether the motion includes payments in kind, in the form of goods and services?
Ms Eagle
If we are talking about the cap—it is not referred to in the motion, but we are considering it for our own policies—we need to consult so that we can reach a sensible decision about what it should mean.
What impression are our constituents expected to form when Lord Heseltine opines on “Newsnight” that being an MP is “not a full-time job”, or when Lord Lawson tells Sky News that
“if you’re just a constituency Member, you do have time on your hands”?
That is not a description of the job of being a Member of Parliament that I have ever recognised in the 23 years in which I have had the honour to represent the people of Wallasey in this place. It is not a description, either, that the public are willing to accept. Their expectations of their MP have changed dramatically, even over the years I have been in this place, and they have certainly changed dramatically in the last 40 years. Our workloads have increased exponentially. It is time that our rules were changed to acknowledge the very different context in which we must now all do our jobs.
Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady confirm that it is the principle rather than the time that is important? She has spoken, as have others in recent days, about the time commitment for people who do things beyond their primary duties as elected Members of Parliament. Members of both Front-Bench teams, of course, spend an incredible amount of time on matters beyond their core responsibilities as constituency Members. Surely it is just the principle of earning outside that she is worried about.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
We should really accept that this is about money. It is about Members—primarily Government Members—who want to be paid extra. [Interruption.] They want to be paid extra, and they want to be paid extra because they are Members of Parliament. My constituents know that, and their constituents know that. That is why the public are not prepared to put up with this any longer.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
The Independent published an interesting league table today, listing the top 10 MPs who earn money outside the House. I am also interested in the choice of words in the motion—and, indeed, in the manuscript amendment, if we are able to see it. Does the hon. Lady believe that anything in the motion would affect the earnings of No. 1 on that list, who earned £962,000 last year—the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)?
Ms Eagle
Let me take this opportunity to make it extremely clear that the motion is not aimed at any particular individual. It is concerned with what Parliament should do to modernise the way in which it interacts with the world outside. I night add that I suspect that ex-Prime Ministers have a rather higher earnings potential than many of the rest of us. Furthermore—I should make this point, now that the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) has brought the issue up—I understand that my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath gives every penny of that money to charity, and does not take any of it himself. Given the import of the hon. Gentleman’s question, I think that should be put on the record.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Will the hon. Lady acknowledge right now that some of the highest earners from outside interests are members of the Labour party? It is this Westminster establishment that the people of this country hold in such contempt. Is that not the reason why both the main Westminster establishment parties can barely exceed 60% in the polls at the moment? A curse on both their houses!
Ms Eagle
I last heard that the Scottish National party had received some particularly large donations from individuals, but I do not want to have this kind of debate about the issue. I am trying to talk about the future, and about how the House regulates matters that have such an important bearing on the way in which our constituents regard this place and us. If we are to increase trust in our politics, we must pay very close attention to what is happening in this instance.
Andrew Gwynne
Is not the issue that we are in danger of seeing a toxic mix, and that politicians just do not get it? Does my hon. Friend agree that we must send the clear message that being a Member of Parliament is an honour and a privilege, and a full-time job?
Sir Edward Leigh
As a matter of interest, will the Labour Front Bench commit to implementing the pay award from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in full?
Ms Eagle
My understanding of our position on the IPSA pay award is that the leader of our party has said that it should not go ahead as long as other public sector workers and workers in this country are experiencing a huge standard of living crisis. That is the situation as set out by my right hon. Friend.
It is time that we acknowledged the very different context in which we must all do our jobs, as it has changed. A YouGov poll in 2013 showed that 62% of people felt that MPs should focus on their parliamentary job full time, and over half favoured an outright ban on all second jobs. The proposals in the motion are just a start, but if enacted they would enable us to deal with the ongoing and corrosive issue of remunerated interests, and to begin to restore the health of our democracy and our constituents’ trust in the people they send to this place.
Let me turn to the actual terms of the motion, rather than the wildly inaccurate version that the Prime Minister sought unsuccessfully to dismiss earlier today. Our proposal states clearly that after
“the start of the next Parliament”
no Member of the House should be permitted to hold a directorship or a paid consultancy or, if our manuscript amendment had been accepted, be a paid trade union official. That is a commitment that we will honour in the Labour party by changing the parliamentary Labour party standing orders. All our existing Members of Parliament and candidates who are standing at the general election have been put on notice to expect that.
If the Government had accepted that rule when we first argued for it in 2013, the reputational damage inflicted this week would not have happened. The motion also states that we need
“a wider regulatory framework for…second jobs”
for MPs. The Prime Minister was wrong when he sought to characterise our proposals as an outright ban. We have set out some ways in which a regulatory framework might operate. That could include setting a cap on earnings from second jobs that is sufficiently high to allow, for example, Members to maintain professional qualifications. However, we will consult on that point with everyone who wishes to share their views. Our aim is to get a system that is fair and workable.
Our intention in the motion is simple. We need to be completely clear with the public that when they do us the honour of electing us to Parliament, they can expect our attention to be focused primarily on serving them.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
Is the hon. Lady telling the House that there are two classes of outside interest: professionals, such as some of our colleagues who are doctors or dentists, who need to maintain their skills; and another set who are directors or consultants, who have nothing to offer the House and do not have skills that need to be maintained? If someone is in business and they need to maintain contact with industry it would be unlawful for them to carry on that business, thereby depriving the House of people with experience and preventing them from keeping their skills current.
Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), how would the hon. Lady deal with a farmer who was elected to Parliament? Most farms are incorporated, so the farmer would be a director. He would make a contribution to agricultural debates. If the motion is accepted, what advice would she give the farmer? Should he retire? Does he sell the farm? What?
Ms Eagle
We want to consult appropriately on this, but Ministers give up their interests and put them in trust when they go into government. There could be proposals that would enable Members to keep hold of the things they did before they were elected without being directly paid for them while they served in this place. There is a consultation process and if the right hon. Gentleman wants to get involved, I am more than happy to listen to what he has to say. It is important, however, that we make this break with the past. Decades ago, being an MP might have been seen as a second job but times have changed radically and we need to change with them.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Some of the people watching the debate will be absolutely incredulous at the views of some Government Members. The Prime Minister said that the reasoning behind second jobs was that he thought they would give people a better understanding of the world outside. I think that more people need to have a better view of the world outside before they become MPs. Does my hon. Friend agree that nobody forces us to come here and get paid £67,000, which is a king’s ransom to many of the people we represent? Those Members do not need second jobs, but if they do there are food banks in every one of their constituencies. Go and volunteer in them.
Ms Eagle
My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a point that is acute and important.
To those who argue that this will all narrow the experience of politicians in Westminster, I would argue that experience useful in our legislature is not purely gained by being paid for doing a second or third job. I have found many interesting and enjoyable ways over the years to stay in touch with constituents and gain a valuable insight into what is happening in the communities we represent. The payment of large supplementary incomes is not essential in gaining that experience.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend believe that for the sake of clarity, particularly for people outside this place, everyone who speaks or intervenes should say how much they earn from outside sources and what they do with the money? I will start by saying that I earn £7,000 a year and for the past 27 years every penny of it has gone to charity.
Jack Lopresti
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and I have no outside interests to declare. How would her plans affect reservists, who serve in the military and can often be off on operational tours for months on end earning extra income?
Ms Eagle
I see no reason why the cap cannot be constituted in such a way as to ensure that people can carry on serving in the armed forces. Government Members must not caricature these proposals. They are about remunerated directorships and consultancies, not about the sort of things that people did before they came to this House.
It is a matter of great regret that the Prime Minister has been so unwilling to recognise the damage that second jobs are doing to the reputation of Parliament and that he dismissed so quickly the attempts of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to make cross-party progress on a ban earlier this week. In opposition, the Prime Minister said:
“Being a Member of Parliament must be a full-time commitment…The public deserves nothing less.”
He knew it then, but once in power he refused to do anything to deal with the problem of second jobs, preferring instead to defend the discredited status quo in which the public have lost faith. The amendment that the Leader of the House will, regrettably, soon move defends the status quo, and even at this late stage the Prime Minister could admit that there is a case for change and get on board.
Ms Eagle
I have given way a lot, so I will not.
The Deputy Prime Minister said earlier today:
“The principle is if you are devoting yourself to public service, that is what you should do…I don't think anyone finds it acceptable…people regard politics as nothing more than a part-time hobby.”
He went on to say that
“the principle should be you are elected to do a job, that is your vocation, that is your act of public service, that is what you should be doing for your constituents”.
Well, I agree, and it is not often that I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister. In the light of that comment, perhaps he will confirm that he and his colleagues will join us in the Lobby tonight. If they do, we can really begin to make progress.
Ms Eagle
No, I am right at the end of my speech and I have given way a lot.
The choice is clear. Are we here to serve our constituents or are we here to serve our own self-interest? Are were going to change a broken system or are we going to ignore the public’s clamour for reform? After the election, no Labour MP will have a paid directorship or consultancy, and Labour’s manifesto will include a promise to ensure that that applies to all MPs. Wider reform is now being rejected because the Conservatives are the defenders of a tired and discredited status quo. To reform our politics, we need to stand up to vested interests, not cosy up to them. We need to stand up for the powerless, not the powerful. And we need to accept that sometimes in this place, things need to change. That time has come.
Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. I am sure that no Member would wish to contribute to the debate, given its subject matter, without declaring any relevant interests. What guidance can you give to Members, given the terms of the motion, on what they should declare before intervening or making a speech?
Ms Eagle
To make it clear again, the parliamentary Labour party will change its rules and its standing orders so that from the start of the next Parliament no Labour MP will have remunerated directorships or consultancies. All our candidates and all our existing Members of Parliament will have to change their arrangements in order to comply with this change of rules. Will the right hon. Gentleman now commit to his party doing the same?
Mr Hague
No, as is very clear from my speech. I have made the point that the Committee on Standards in Public Life made. The hon. Lady has said what the Labour party will do in the next Parliament, but I hope she will admit that she has to deal with the points I have been making about how to define these responsibilities, because they are not dealt with at the moment. There is no clear answer from the Opposition even about what their policy is.