Members’ Paid Directorships and Consultancies

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Wednesday 25th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

I will come on to the details of the motion later. It is a little more flexible than the hon. Gentleman might assume. I shall explain the consultation process that we are going through, which it would benefit the whole House to consider.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady also clarify whether she is talking about cash payments only, or whether the motion includes payments in kind, in the form of goods and services?

[Ms Eagle]

If we are talking about the cap—it is not referred to in the motion, but we are considering it for our own policies—we need to consult so that we can reach a sensible decision about what it should mean.

What impression are our constituents expected to form when Lord Heseltine opines on “Newsnight” that being an MP is “not a full-time job”, or when Lord Lawson tells Sky News that

“if you’re just a constituency Member, you do have time on your hands”?

That is not a description of the job of being a Member of Parliament that I have ever recognised in the 23 years in which I have had the honour to represent the people of Wallasey in this place. It is not a description, either, that the public are willing to accept. Their expectations of their MP have changed dramatically, even over the years I have been in this place, and they have certainly changed dramatically in the last 40 years. Our workloads have increased exponentially. It is time that our rules were changed to acknowledge the very different context in which we must now all do our jobs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I draw attention to my declaration of interests, and let me spell them out, as has been requested. I am a director of a garden centre company and I will even name the other three directors. One is my wife, one is my father and the other is my mother. I am a partner in a farming business, as well. There are three other partners. They are my wife, my father and my mother. I understand the issues that Opposition Members, and Government Members, are trying to address, but the reputation of Members of Parliament is not being enhanced by the situation we find ourselves in.

Front-Bench Members must ask themselves whether the debate is making the situation better or worse. They are assisting the problem, not trying to solve it. In trying to develop rules to trap people or to make—[Hon. Members: “Trap?”] You are trapping me. Let me explain. As a farmer, if I cannot be a paid director, that is quite simple because I can extract myself and make myself an unremunerated director. That would mean that my wife would have to draw twice the salary to maintain the same level of support for the family. That does not affect my interest or whether or not I am influenced. In fact, it could be argued that that is even worse as my family is benefiting from that cash, which gives me that same interest.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

On a related point, as the hon. Gentleman talks about farming interests, does he share my concern that Members in receipt of common agricultural payments do not have to declare that in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, even when they are Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Ministers receiving quite substantial amounts?

[Mr Spencer]

That is a very good point. I am a partner of an agricultural company that receives subsidies from the EU. I am an unremunerated partner in that company, but how does one extract oneself when one’s immediate family are benefiting? I live in a house at the centre of that farm. There is only one electricity meter for that property, so the farming business pays the electricity bill, in effect paying the electricity bill for the house that I live in. I cannot extract myself from that unless I move house. I have never lived anywhere else. I was born in that house and have lived there for ever, but the rules that the Opposition are trying to create will stop people becoming Members of Parliament. It would be impossible for me to be a Member of Parliament under the rules they are trying to set up. I do not think that that is what they are trying to achieve; I think they are trying to stop influence. Everybody in the House wants to ensure that Opposition Members are not being influenced, and I am sure that that is what they are trying to achieve. The rules they are proposing, however, do not do what they want to achieve. That is a great shame. It brings shame on this House and brings the role of being a Member of Parliament into disrepute.

[Mr Burley]

On the subject of influencing MPs, does my hon. Friend share my concern about Members of Parliament who are members of trade unions and do not declare that interest, such as the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), who had to apologise to this House for tabling amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill written for her by the GMB union, of which she was a member?

[Mr Spencer]

That is a legitimate point and it brings me to my final point about the best way to solve this. Members of Parliament should be allowed to do whatever they want to do, in whatever role they want to do it in and with whatever money they want to earn elsewhere, but that should be wholly in the public domain. The constituents of that Member of Parliament would be able to make a judgment about whether they thought that that was the right or the wrong thing to do. That is the only clear way to solve this issue without trying to draw up rules. There will always be loopholes when we draw up rules that mean that people with unscrupulous motives will be able to get around them, but innocent people who try to do a good job as a Member of Parliament would be trapped by them. That would be a great shame, not only for the House but for those Members who genuinely became a Member of Parliament to try to improve their own communities and assist the area in which they live. It would also be a great shame for people like myself, because I had no ambition to become a Member of Parliament until very late in life. I had had another career and I sort of stumbled into this by working in a community and being pushed forward through the things that I was doing to benefit that community. I think the House benefits a great deal from people who have worked and gained experience elsewhere before coming to this place to assist in making good, logical decisions based on that experience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)]

This has been an interesting debate, although it has not always been of the highest quality. A number of contributions stay in my mind, but I will not have a chance to deal with them all.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) pointed out that £67,000 is a full-time salary and that this is a full-time job. That was a recurring theme. I remind those who say it is not that much that we are in the top decile. Nine out of 10 people earn less than us. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) reminded the House that almost four out of 10 people in her constituency earn less than the living wage.

My hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), who I am sure is on his way back to the Chamber, reminded the House that there are Members of Parliament who are earning £1,000 an hour in addition to their salary. These are staggering amounts of money. The hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) used extravagant but accurate language to describe the horror that many people will feel when they discover how much money is earned by some Members of Parliament.

There were a number of interesting speeches by Government Members, which all boiled down to three arguments. I will deal with those quickly before getting to the point of our motion. There were the loud-and-prouders or topper-uppers, who were in favour of earning more because they felt that, as a result of what they did, they were entitled to a larger salary. They felt that £67,000 was not enough. I will come to that argument in a moment or two.

The Leader of the House said that our proposal was just too complicated and difficult to achieve. I reminded him that it has been done in Washington. In fact, Washington has gone much further than this relatively modest proposal. I am not saying that we should model everything we do on Washington, but it is interesting that the home of free enterprise and buccaneer capitalism has been able to regulate its elected members when the Government suggest that we cannot.

The third argument was that it helps the House to have the experience of people who do things outside. Of course it does. We all do things outside. The issue is remuneration. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) reminded us that he previously had two businesses, and he did the right thing—he closed one down and put the other into hibernation, so that there could be no conflict of interest. The central question is one of remuneration.

[Mr Spencer]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jon Trickett]

No, I do not have time.

The central issue that our motion is intended to address is the crisis of legitimacy that the British governing elite is experiencing. We encounter cynicism wherever we go, and in the end it will imperil the very foundations of our democracy unless we somehow regain the trust and respect of the British people. The question is, can we respond to a new zeitgeist that is everywhere in our country—one that is more democratic, egalitarian, non-deferential and occasionally even unruly? It is right that it should have all those attributes in the second decade of a democratic century.