Cycling

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank my hon. Friend. Rural speed limits are important. In fact, the introduction of networks of 40 mph speed limits on rural roads had a great benefit in Holland. There is a lot of evidence to support their use, but this is about money. I welcome the £10 a head in the eight cities that will benefit and the spending in, for example, the Dartmoor national park in my part of the world, but that is not what the report called for. Our report called for £10 a head nationally and for us to think of the benefits—a real, lasting legacy—that that could achieve.

However, this is also about speed, as my hon. Friend pointed out. Let us look at the benefits we would see if we had 20 mph speed limits in urban areas. Too often, highways departments look at accident data before making decisions about speed limits. However, we all know that parents will not let their children cycle in the first place if they do not feel they are safe, and the perception of safety is strongly linked to the speed at which the traffic is travelling. We should look at speed limits across the board. I recently visited Falcon Park in Torbay, which is a park home development with many elderly residents who cannot walk down the road, let alone cross it, because of high-speed traffic. In any other residential area, the speed limit would have been reduced to 30 mph.

This is not only about 20 mph limits in towns and cities on a network of roads; it is about reducing speed across the board and assessing our priorities. Whom do we prioritise? Are we prioritising vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists, or are we prioritising the motorist and speed? We need to change our priorities completely to achieve that. It does not take a great deal of money to reduce speed limits—everyone recognises that there is a financial imperative—but the issue is not just reducing the speed limit, but enforcing it. We heard shocking evidence in our inquiry about a level of complacency towards enforcement. What discussions have taken place across Departments to ensure that welcome changes in the issuing of fixed penalty notices for careless driving will be extended to penalising people who breach speed limits directly? It is immediate consequences that will drive change.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I am sure that, like me, my hon. Friend is delighted to see the Government Chief Whip in his place. He must be the grandfather of parliamentary cycling. On enforcement, does she agree that although motorists should absolutely do the right thing and obey the rules, it is also incumbent on cyclists to obey rules, and that a small minority of cyclists give most cyclists a bad name on occasion by not obeying the Highway Code?

Plug-in Vehicles

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I called for a debate on ultra-low emission vehicles on 10 May 2011, and we had an interesting hour-and-a-half Westminster Hall debate at that time—to which the Minister who is here today replied—so it is good to be back here discussing this really important issue, to see what progress has been made, and to encourage the Government to keep on going in the direction in which they have started out.

There are four powerful reasons why the issue is tremendously important. The Chair of the Transport Committee, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), has already mentioned the first: the need to tackle climate change. If we are to have green electricity, ultra-low emission vehicles and electric cars in particular have a significant role to play in addressing climate change. Secondly, the economic potential is huge. Having the new apprentices, the young men and women who will have to learn to build the cars, service them and keep them on the road, and maintain the infrastructure and spread it out, gives the possibility of hundreds of thousands of extra jobs for our constituents across the country.

Thirdly, producing our own green electricity helps us deal with energy security, which is a big issue that this country faces. Lastly, and probably the reason that our constituents would most support, is the genuine potential for lowering the cost of motoring. We must recognise that owning a car and putting diesel or petrol in it is becoming a rich woman or man’s game. I am distinctly uneasy about that because for many people a car is a means to earn a living, take their children to school and get to hospitals and doctors, because public transport is not always available as and when they want it. This issue matters enormously.

We have made a good start and, to be fair to the Opposition, I think that a good start was made under the previous Government. I am reassured by the commitment I have seen from the Department for Transport, from this Minister, from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and also from the Treasury, given what we heard in this year’s Budget. I think that we have cross-party consensus, which is good because we are talking about something that requires long-term investment, and the people who will be putting the money in need to know that, whatever happens with the future government of our country, both sides of the House share a commitment to take the matter forward.

Nevertheless, I ask the Minister: are we being ambitious enough for Britain? If we look back through our economic history, there are many instances when things have been invented and created in this country and then the commercial exploitation has gone overseas. There is a worry that that might happen, with other European countries and certainly with the far east. It is quite possible that a country such as China could decide to invest significantly in ultra-low emission vehicles, seeing it as an economic game changer. I want the components, the vehicles and the batteries to be made in this country to a significant degree; I do not just want to be importing them from overseas.

We have heard about production in Sunderland, and I was a little concerned by what the Chair of the Select Committee said about recent reports of slightly lower numbers of the Nissan Leaf being made in the factory there. I have driven the Leaf around my constituency. It is a very nice car. It is a good size—I think that both you and I, Mr Robertson, could get into it, which is reassuring. I want to see many more Leaf cars on our roads. I have also driven the Vauxhall Ampera. It was brought here, to New Palace Yard, and I and several Members who are keen on the subject drove it over Westminster bridge and Lambeth bridge and back to the Palace of Westminster—without crashing it, I am pleased to say. That car drives extremely nicely, too, with very good acceleration. It looks nice on the road; it is a desirable car. We are not talking about antiquated technology or cars for geeks; these are cars that we all, I think, would be proud to have on our driveways.

The USA is investing some $2.4 billion in supporting the next generation of electric vehicles, and in China a company called BYD—which I think stands for “build your dreams”—is investing significantly in new battery technology. Interestingly, or perhaps ominously as far as the UK is concerned, Warren Buffett has apparently taken a 10% stake in the company, so if his past investment record is anything to go by, it will be a great success. Elsewhere around the world, Israel plans to have a transport sector that is completely oil-free by 2020—the Chair of the Select Committee probably takes a particular interest in that—and Denmark is very advanced and intends to move forward significantly in this area.

The hon. Lady mentioned the price of electric vehicles, which is a significant issue because, to be honest, they are not cheap at the moment. She mentioned a figure of £20,000 or so, even after the Government’s generous £5,000 discount. That is a lot of money—I have never spent £20,000 on a car—and of course there is no second-hand market for electric vehicles. I bought the car I currently drive for £6,000 second hand, but people cannot buy a second-hand electric vehicle for that amount of money.

My question to the Minister—if he answers only one of my questions, I would appreciate it if it was this one—is: when does he believe it will become an economically rational decision for a motorist watching the pennies to buy an electric vehicle? I believe that moment will come, because although petrol and diesel prices are now dipping a bit, in the longer term they will sadly go only one way, which is up. There will come a point at which it is economically rational to decide to buy and run an electric car, because it will be cheaper to do so, despite the up-front investment of buying it and the cost of keeping it on the road. When that moment comes, there will be a large change, because hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of people will say, “Right, for my next car I want an electric vehicle. I want cheaper, cleaner motoring.” Above all, I want us to be ready for that moment, and not importing foreign components and cars when it comes.

My constituency of South West Bedfordshire had no electric charging points in May 2011. The Minister may remember that I pursued him about that. We were due to have some, but we had a few teething problems getting them. Since our last debate on this subject, I have unveiled electric charging points in Leighton Buzzard and Dunstable in my constituency. To be honest—we must always be as honest as possible in this place—great use has not yet been made of them. I am not surprised about that, because there are still very few electric vehicles on the road. There is a Nissan garage in Dunstable, which will sell more and more Leafs, and Vauxhall is extremely strong in my area, with a factory in neighbouring Luton, and I hope that local Vauxhall showrooms will try to sell the Ampera. I can see that there will be increased usage, and I hope that such electric charging points will be used. We of course need more of them, but some are being rolled out. The Government are doing the right things: there are increasing numbers of them in car parks at visitor attractions and motorway service stations.

Not many people realise that an 80% recharge is possible in about half an hour. People think that going somewhere means that they will have to wait for hours and hours to recharge their car, which will not be worth it. The average family might easily stop at a motorway service station for 20 minutes—by the time they go in, use the facilities, buy a cup of coffee and get everyone back in the car—so being there for only another 10 minutes to get an 80% recharge in order to continue their journey will transform what electric vehicles can do. People will be able to make longer journeys without having inconveniently long pauses.

In conclusion, it is good to have the Minister here, but I just want to hold his feet to the fire, in a sense, by saying that I really think that the issue matters for our country, constituents and economy in respect of climate change. As I have said, we have missed great economic opportunities in the past, so I urge him, after his good start, to keep on pushing the policy very hard. It has support right at the top of Government, as we saw in the recent Budget. The opportunities are huge: people have spoken of a $2 trillion market, and the United Kingdom’s share of that market really matters for the well-being and prosperity of this country. That is why I think that the issue is important and why I am here this afternoon. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Robertson.

It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), who gave a very good introduction to the need for the decarbonisation of transport for environmental, energy, security and economic reasons. I will not try to better his explanation, but I have some concerns about how we can best deliver that in the context of electric vehicles. There is certainly a role for an electric vehicle market, but I am not sure that it will evolve in the way that the Government or other parties—there is some consensus across parties—hope, and I trust that hon. Members will bear with me while I set out my rationale for that view.

The first obstacle to the significant extension of electric car ownership is the high cost, as has been mentioned. Even with the generous discount available, the capital sum involved is still large. Currently, a like-for-like comparison between an electric car and a petrol or diesel one is a no-brainer, unless people happen to be wealthy enough to afford the premium. The usual trend is that a new technological product is initially extremely expensive and then, as the technology improves and more people take it up, the price drops. When plasma screen televisions were first introduced, the cost ran into thousands of pounds, but the price has now come right down and they are available for most people to buy.

I am not as certain as my hon. Friend that we will easily reach a tipping point at which the cost of electric vehicles will come down and make them a rational purchase choice for many consumers. My concerns about why we will not get there are largely technical, but are also from the point of view of convenience. At the moment, the range of an electric car is about 100 miles maximum, but that can be significantly reduced by use of the air conditioning, the radio and all the other gadgets that we increasingly take for granted in cars. Apart from in a very domestic market, that is a big inhibitor: people will not have the confidence to buy such a car for regular journeys to other parts of the country for business or holidays. Even half an hour, for an 80% recharge, is a significant addition of time to a business journey. That is one reason why there will be a difficulty—I am not saying that it is impossible—in getting consumer certainty and confidence.

[Andrew Selous]

I accept what my hon. Friend is saying. He is making some fair points, but does he accept that there might well be significant improvements in battery technology—for example, with the use of graphene—that would transform those issues?

[Iain Stewart]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I hope that we reach that point, but I am not yet convinced that the technology is there to deliver that step change. It may come. I am in no way an expert on these matters, but from all my discussions with manufacturers—the Nissan Leaf was developed at Cranfield, which is close to both our constituencies—I did not get a sense that there would be a radical shift in range immediately. It may come, and I hope it does.

My other concern relates to the domestic consumer and their confidence in running an electric car. Not everyone can plan their daily journeys with great confidence. We might have our regular commute from home to work and back again, and that is within the range of the car, but then we have to pick up kids from sports activities or do an extra shop. We can suddenly add to our daily journey in all sorts of ways. Until we get to the point where the recharging of an electric car is as convenient as going into a petrol station to fill up, in terms of time and availability, we will not get that step change in consumer demand.

We have lots of charging points in Milton Keynes, but drivers can never be certain that those spaces will be free. They could be left stranded if they are not near a plug-in point to be able to recharge their car. If consumer confidence does not improve, I fear that we will not get the sort of demand that will reduce the unit cost of the car. We might be locked into that difficult cycle, which is why I fear that we will not get a huge increase in numbers in privately owned electric cars.

[Andrew Selous]

I take my hon. Friend’s point about the length of time that it can take to charge a battery, although perhaps not having to shell out £85 might compensate for that in quite some significant way. May I ask him about the technology developed by Better Place, which can literally swap over batteries in less than a minute? At least that is quick and would perhaps answer the issue that my hon. Friend quite properly raises.

[Iain Stewart]

If that could be delivered, I would be absolutely delighted, but I have not seen any evidence that that is a practical solution. If my hon. Friend has evidence to the contrary, I would be interested to see it. I have outlined what I fear the barriers are; they are not insurmountable but a challenge none the less.

I see a better future for electric cars in the fleet and hire market. My initial thoughts on that came from our Rail 2020 Select Committee inquiry. On a European visit, we met with Dutch state railways, which gave us a presentation on an integrated transport system with smart ticketing technology that involved rail, bus and increasingly hire of electric vehicles in city centres, and it is now heavily promoting that. We have a real opportunity in this country for the development of electric cars. They are not cars that people will personally own, but they could be hired on a very short-term basis for 30 minutes or an hour or for a day or a couple of days. By shifting the responsibility for recharging from the individual driver and user to the fleet company or hire company, we would be able to remove much of the uncertainty, which I fear will prohibit people from purchasing the cars themselves. It would also help in the siting of charging points. Local authorities could work with the hire companies and whoever owns the fleet to strategically position points so that the cars are dealt with in an efficient way. It would also address the fear that was mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) about the potential overload on the electricity system if the pattern was that people come home from work and plug in their car.

Mr Robertson, you might recall that at about this time last year, you and I attended a conference in Copenhagen with European transport and environment committees. One concern expressed was that the demand from electric cars might be so great that the only way to spread the load would be to introduce price limits and controls to discourage people from charging their vehicles at particular times, which defeats the whole object of the system.

By having more of the recharging done by fleet or hire companies, we would be able to stagger the recharging of cars in a more uniform way and avoid the overload that could potentially happen if the consumer pattern was to start charging at 6.30 in the evening. It would also help with the planning of some of the issues of standardisation that the Select Committee has identified.

A better rate of decarbonisation in privately owned cars will be achieved through the development of hybrid car technology. The body weights of motor vehicles are increasingly coming down: a number of manufacturers that I have talked to have high ambitions of delivering carbon savings by developing not wholly electric cars but hybrid and lighter vehicles. That, I feel, is the biggest potential saving, but there is a role for electric cars as well.

Before the Government commit too much money in going down one route of providing plug-in places and all the other infrastructure, I urge them to take a step back and assess whether there are other ways in which we can more effectively see an increase in electric vehicles.

Finally, let me make one separate point, which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside briefly mentioned, and it neatly bridges in to the second debate on road safety. Having very quiet or near silent cars on the roads poses a potential danger for pedestrians, especially for blind and partially sighted people. The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association is running an effective campaign on that, and wants a noise gadget to be introduced so that electric cars can be heard by visually impaired people.

As part of the Select Committee’s inquiry into disabled access to transport, with Guide Dogs for the Blind I took a bus journey blindfolded. Losing the power of sight is an incredibly scary experience. The purpose of the ride was to investigate audio announcements on buses, but when I was at the side of the road, I became very dependent on hearing cars. If they become so quiet that they cannot be properly heard, it could cause a real danger.

There is perhaps a market in creating different noises for cars. One could buy a little run-about car that sounds like an Aston Martin. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire talked about developing new technologies; I have just suggested one, and as Aston Martin is a very good employer in Milton Keynes, I heartily recommend it. Perhaps we could return to that issue of road safety in the second debate. I urge the Government to consider the matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), the Chair of the Transport Committee, on securing this debate and on the way that she presented her case. I will do my best to respond to the points that have been made, but without causing those interested in road safety to be here for a fruitless exercise.

I also thank other Members who have contributed to the debate, especially my hon. Friends the Members for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) and for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire in particular has been a strong advocate of electric vehicles ever since I have been a Minister and no doubt for a long time before that.

Let me be quite clear that the Government is fully behind the drive towards low-carbon vehicles, both because it is environmentally sensible—in terms of cutting our carbon emissions—and because it represents a significant opportunity for British industry and British jobs to get ahead. I assure all Members that we are focused on that drive. There is close work between the Department for Transport, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury. The Chair of the Select Committee rightly referred to the measures taken in the recent Budget, which are a good example of how Departments work together for a common purpose, and send long-term signals that this is where we want to go in terms of our transport objectives. As always, I will say at this point that creating growth and cutting carbon are two sides of the same coin; the commitment that we have made as a Government to the roll-out of electric and low-carbon vehicles is a precise example of that.

We are making significant progress. The 2011 Carbon Plan laid out how the Government intends to tackle rising greenhouse gas emissions, and new car emissions are outperforming the progress that was expected. We are on track to meet the 2020 indicator target of 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre. As Members will know, there is also a 2020 target in place for vans, which is 147 grams of CO₂ per kilometre. I am reasonably confident that that target will also be met.

Stricter emissions targets are stimulating the shift to ultra-low emission vehicles, as well as improving the performance of standard, traditional or normal—if we can call them “normal”—vehicles. We are determined to create the right conditions and infrastructure for the development of an early market for ULEVs. We have committed £400 million so far in this Parliament to that end. This has resulted in the provision of more than 4,000 charge points nationwide, through the eight plugged-in places, with 70% of those being publicly accessible. I am delighted that the private sector has responded with its own charge points. We are now seeing a huge increase in the numbers available to the public at large.

[Andrew Selous]

I was surprised to hear the contribution from the Opposition Benches just now about there being no charging points in Manchester, one of our great northern cities. Will the Minister say whether that is because of the Government or because of Manchester, or are there plans to change that?

[Norman Baker]

That information is incorrect. There are 29 charge points installed to date in Manchester and 58 are to be installed later this year. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to put that correction on the record.

As has been mentioned, the plug-in car grant was launched in 2011 and extended to vans in 2012. To the end of March, we have received almost 4,000 claims for these grants. We hear some doom-mongers in the press in particular, and one or two in Parliament, who suggest that this is somehow a terrible result. It is not. A graph can be plotted for any new product, for example, a DVD—or, in the past, video—recorder, showing what happens when a new product is put on the market. There is naturally a slow upturn, leading to a sharp increase. We are perfectly content that the roll-out of electric vehicles is not dissimilar to that of any other innovative product launched in the past.

I agree that we need to do what we can to encourage the market for such vehicles. I agree with the Chair of the Committee that it is important to identify the potential for fleet buyers. We are doing that, not least through our work with the Energy Saving Trust, with which, as Minister, I agree a programme of work each year. One of its clear targets is to encourage the take-up by fleet purchasers of low-carbon vehicles. That is one way in which we will stimulate the market. Doing that will bring down the unit cost and will help, generally, to increase the number of cars that are sold.

[Andrew Selous]

Some of my constituents work in the Luton van factory, making the excellent, award-winning Vauxhall Vivaro van. I have often spoken to Vauxhall about whether it has any plans to bring in an electric vehicle. Will the Minister update us on what recent conversations he has had with UK commercial vehicle manufacturers about the potential for making electric commercial vehicles here in the UK?

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to provide my hon. Friend with details about that. We are in regular contact with manufacturers in the country to encourage them to pursue that matter further. In respect of that particular manufacturer, I will exercise my brain cells to find out whether anything comes to me during this part of the debate, to enable him to have a fuller answer.

It was suggested that these are merely second cars for rich people, but that is not so. Some 73% of the so-called second cars have taken up the grant for business use, so business is embracing low-carbon cars. That is the predominant purchasing market at present.

We are in the process of updating the “Making the connection” infrastructure strategy and looking to restate the rationale for policy in this area, and this debate helps, as does the Committee’s thoughtful report. As this strategy develops, I will be limited in what I can say about what it will contain. However, we are aiming to publish it in early summer and hope to be able to provide an in-depth analysis of our programmes to date and use this, and robust evidence from other key stakeholders, to set out a pathway to the mass adoption of ULEVs in the UK.

We are currently talking—we always do; it will not be a surprise—to automotive manufacturers, infrastructure providers and energy providers, because there is an issue about the grid. We are also talking to our colleagues at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, trade associations representing the motorcycle sector, other Departments, and so on. That is not an exhaustive list, but I hope it gives hon. Members confidence that we are engaging cross-departmentally and across industry, with all relevant parties, to ensure that we are getting the best possible future for ULEVs.

I think we are getting the policy right. The start of Nissan Leaf production in Sunderland is proof of this. Of course, it is not just that. The BMW 8 engine is to be produced in the UK; the batteries are now being produced, helped by the significant investment in research and development, which the Government has brought forward.

We have the potential to achieve—I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire—and we must be ambitious for Britain in this area. We must ensure that we become the focal point for the development of ULEVs. We are on the way to doing that, certainly as far as the European dimension is concerned, by getting in early, with clear direction from Government. Industry has said to the Government that it welcomes the clear, direct steer from us, giving long-term certainty about the direction of travel. To be fair to the Opposition, all three parties have embraced this agenda, giving certainty to industry beyond particular Parliaments. It is important that that stays as it is. We want more auto manufacturers.

Another point about the number of vehicles sold is that there is a limited number of vehicles on the market at the moment. That will change rapidly, with a new range of vehicles coming along shortly, giving far more choice to the consumer and the business user as to which vehicle they purchase for their particular needs. That, as much as anything else, will lead to an upturn in sales.

I will now try to answer questions asked by hon. Members. The national charge point registry was mentioned by the Committee Chair in her opening contribution. It is a requirement under both plugged-in places and the new national grant scheme that all publicly accessible charge points funded by the Government must be registered with the national charge point registry. Good progress has been made in adding data to the NCR. There are currently 3,085 points on the register.

High Speed Rail

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support and for his attendance at last week’s meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on high speed rail. I can give him that assurance. As I said earlier, this is the start of the process, not the end. We want to get the maximum possible value out of the investment.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

On a number of recent occasions, trains pulling into Leighton Buzzard station have been so full that no passenger has been able to get from the platform on to the train. Will HS2 help them?

[Mr McLoughlin]

I very much hope so. My hon. Friend makes a point about the important need for greater capacity, and I will look in great detail at how the issue may affect his constituents.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

We can of course look into the detail of the point that my hon. Friend raises. She is absolutely right also to highlight the very valuable work of user-led organisations such as the Outlook centre, which can provide bespoke support for families who are dealing with benefit claims or other issues to do with their loved ones’ lives. That is why we have launched a significant programme to try to expand and support more user-led organisations up and down the country in doing similar work in all our communities.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

3. How many people have continued to work as a result of the abolition of the default retirement age.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

The Government’s impact assessment estimates that after one year about 6,000 people will have continued in work as a result of removing the DRA—in other words, between 4% and 7% of employees aged 65 or over.

[Andrew Selous]

Does my hon. Friend agree that older workers enable knowledge and skills to be transferred from one generation to the next, and that putting a “best before” date on workers was unacceptable discrimination that this Government have justly got rid of?

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend is right. One of the lasting legacies of this coalition will be that, after years of its being talked about, we finally abolished age discrimination in the workplace. To give him an example, research has found that McDonald’s restaurants that employ people over 60 have, on average, far higher customer satisfaction than those that do not.

Cycling

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dr Huppert]

Definitely. I hope that the money that I have just referred to will help—it is being matched by some other support—and I talk quite regularly to the Association of Train Operating Companies about what we can do to improve matters. In addition, I think that we are finally about to make some progress at Cambridge station, which I am delighted about.

There is another issue. Cycle parking applies throughout our towns and not just at the stations. As well as the fact that it is possible to fit in more bikes than other vehicles, which is very helpful, cyclists actually spend more when they go shopping than people who go by car. So it would be quite good for our economy to see more people cycling.

A further issue is getting people started and helping them to find a route that they can follow to get where they want to go. There is an excellent Cambridge-based company called CycleStreets that has route-mapping across the whole country. All our constituencies are covered by that provision. It is free online, and I can recommend the iPhone Bike Hub app, which will even suggest the quietest routes or routes that avoid hills if that is what people want; people have to cycle the remaining hills themselves. The development cost for that provision was around £40,000, to generate something that covers the whole country. It was developed using open public data and private sector initiative, and I hope that MPs, councils, train operators, event organisers and others will link up to the CycleStreets website, so that they can give cyclists specific information on how to get to a station, event or wherever they are trying to get to very easily.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

On road space, I just wanted to ask—as someone who has been knocked off his bike twice—if the hon. Gentleman agrees that what we really want to move to is what happens in great European cities such as Munich, where there is clearly defined space for pedestrians, road users and cyclists, with the space for each group clearly marked?

[Dr Huppert]

There are many cases where clear segregation, including dedicated cycle routes, is absolutely the right thing, but we must also look at policies across the whole country. In rural areas, that suggestion simply would not be sensible. We need the right solution in the right place, and I think we can deliver that.

There are a number of measures that companies should adopt, such as providing showers and lockers at work, which will help to promote cycling and, in turn, cycling will help to improve employee well-being and productivity. The cycle to work scheme works very well, but the tax problems need to be resolved and the scheme should be promoted a bit further.

Ultra Low-Carbon Emission Vehicles

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mrs Riordan, and I am particularly grateful to Mr Speaker for granting me this debate on the Government’s policy on ultra low-carbon emission vehicles.

There are four main reasons why the issue is so important and matters for the future of this country. The first reason is about tackling climate change. We know that the Government are committed in law to a 34% reduction in emissions by 2020 and an 80% cut by 2050. Clearly, ultra low-carbon emission vehicles, including electric cars, will be part of the solution to helping to reduce emissions, but we also need to have low-carbon electricity. It is no good just reducing the tailpipe emissions if the electricity that powers ultra low-carbon vehicles is fossil fuel and dirty. That is a given. I do not know whether Professor David MacKay is still advising the Government, but he has made that point very powerfully in his book, “Sustainable Energy—Without the Hot Air,” and it is important that we mention it when introducing the debate. As I say, doing something about climate change is the first reason the issue is important, as ultra low-carbon emission vehicles are clearly part of that.

The second reason is that the whole sector has massive potential to create growth, wealth, jobs and employment for this country. Just under 2.5 million of our fellow citizens are looking for work, and ultra low-carbon emission vehicles are part of a massive industry of the future. Shai Agassi of Better Place has spoken of a $2 trillion-a-year industry. If the United Kingdom can increase its percentage share of that even by a few percentage points, many more jobs across the country will be created for all our constituents. Low-carbon growth and the jobs that come from it are absolutely vital.

The third reason why the issue is important is that ultra low-carbon emission vehicles are a crucial part of the United Kingdom’s response to a world with less secure energy supplies. We have only to look around the middle east at the moment to see that that is very much the case. The fourth reason the matter is vital, which will probably speak most strongly to our constituents, is that it will allow us to do something about the absolutely exorbitant cost of going to a petrol station and putting petrol or diesel in a car. Our constituents—and, indeed, we—are all paying cripplingly high prices to drive around. If we can sort out the generating issues, ultra low-carbon emission vehicles provide the potential for much cheaper motoring. If any of us were looking for a slogan on which to be elected at the next election, “Cheaper motoring” must be high up the list and would resonate strongly with our constituents. I have given four powerful reasons why the issue matters incredibly. Two reasons I would particularly pick out are the wealth and jobs we need to create, and the cost of motoring to our constituents.

To give credit where credit is due, the Government have been active in this area. The Office for Low Emission Vehicles was set up under the previous Government and is a collaborative effort between the Department for Transport, which is the Minister’s Department, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department of Energy and Climate Change. It has a combined budget of more than £400 million. There is also the Technology Strategy Board, which is a non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and the plugged-in places grant, which is designed to provide the necessary infrastructure. I will talk about that grant in a moment. In addition, the industry’s own automotive innovation and growth team led to the creation of the Automotive Council UK, which is a joint industry and BIS body.

There clearly has been action and there is cross-Government co-ordination, as there should be because one Department on its own cannot make this happen. That is excellent. I am glad that the people who need to be talking to each other in Government are doing so. My central question to the Minister, who I suppose is answering on behalf of all the Departments involved, is: are we being ambitious enough for the United Kingdom? I very much want the United Kingdom to be a success story at the heart of this massive and soon to be hugely growing global industry.

Let us consider where we are at the moment. The Department for Transport’s figures show that there are only 57,000 vehicles in vehicle excise duty band A, which is the lowest emission category. That figure is, in fact, double the number of vehicles that were in the category in 2009, so the industry is clearly growing fast. However, I remind hon. Members present this morning and those who will read the transcript of the debate that there are 28.4 million cars in the United Kingdom and that 57,000 is therefore a fairly small number.

The Government’s Committee on Climate Change has recommended that we should aim to have 1.7 million electric vehicles by 2020. Will the Minister say if that is what the Government are committed to achieving and how the numbers will stack up in increasing the 57,000, which we have in 2011, to the 1.7 million, which the committee says that it wants in 2020? There will need to be very sharp increases over the coming nine years to get that far. The figure of 1.7 million cars is just under 6% of the 28.4 million cars in the United Kingdom at the moment. In the excellent Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology note attached to the debate pack, I was interested to read that Japan has set a target of 20% of next-generation cars by 2020—the same date.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate; he is making a strong and compelling case. The benefits that low-carbon vehicles can have in reducing CO₂ and helping the environment are undoubted, but does he agree that the research and development and manufacture of such vehicles in this country is a real chance for us not just to broaden our manufacturing base once more, but to rebalance the UK economy?

[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are already strong in a number of the areas he mentioned in his question. We start from a good base, but he is absolutely right that the potential is massive. My prime purpose in initiating the debate is to allow us to play our role as parliamentarians in holding the Government to account and to ensure that we do not lose out on the potential for us to benefit fully from what he is talking about.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

This is a very important debate for the reason noted by both my hon. Friends: the opportunity the sector offers to manufacturing. However, a problem that needs to be solved is the supply of the skills necessary to develop the technology that we have. In this country, an insufficient number of people have skills in the automotive sector that relate to electronics. That must be put right because that area will make up a larger part of any future vehicle designed to meet very strict low-carbon emissions. We must address the skills issue in the sector.

[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. If he will bear with me, I intend to touch on exactly the issue of skills that he has, properly, raised. He is not the only one raising that issue. The Institution of Mechanical Engineers and others are very concerned that we are behind where we should be in the number of qualified technicians, the people who understand the new technology and the training of apprentices in this important area. The issue goes back even further than that to the number of physics teachers that we need in our schools; the number we have is far too low. It will be difficult for the Minister when he responds to the debate, because that issue touches on such a wide area of Government policy, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right.

I was making the point that, were the United Kingdom to be as ambitious as Japan—I do not see any reason why we should not be, as the industrial revolution took place in this country, we were the workshop of the world and I believe we can be again—that would lead to a figure of 5.7 million ultra low-carbon emission vehicles on our roads by 2020, rather than the 1.7 million that the Government are aiming for. My question for the Minister, therefore, is: why are we being less ambitious than Japan?

It is true that the United Kingdom has had some notable successes; for example, Sunderland’s anticipated production of 60,000 electric vehicles a year, starting in 2013. I would note again, however, that those 60,000 vehicles a year are equivalent to some 2% of the 3 million internal combustion engines that the United Kingdom currently makes every year. That is not to say that we cannot make greater progress with the efficiency of the internal combustion engine—I will say a bit about that towards the end of my remarks—but I think that colleagues will appreciate the scale of the challenge that we face to even get to the Committee on Climate Change’s figure of 1.7 million electric vehicles on our roads by 2020.

When we look across the Atlantic ocean, we see that the United States is investing some $2.4 billion to support the next generation of electric vehicles. We know that in China there is massive investment in new battery technology—I am thinking of companies such as BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams”. Warren Buffett already has a 10% stake—normally a sure-fire sign of a company that will do well. That is the competition that the United Kingdom is looking at around the world.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Ministers from the Department for Transport need to make substantial representations to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, regarding where the regional growth fund is spent, in order to try to support our low-carbon industry, particularly in the automotive sector?

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[Andrew Selous]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The automotive sector is very important to the United Kingdom not just for the cars we produce, but for the number of engines, the number of smaller engineering companies, the suppliers, and the technology and engineering base that supports that. It is vital to the country’s economic future. I indicated earlier that I am reassured that those lines of communication across Government are there, but we need to see delivery from those conversations, as he has rightly pointed out.

I will continue looking at what else is happening around the world a bit longer, because it is important to put what the United Kingdom does in context. As far as I can see, Israel plans to be the most ambitious of all. It intends to rid its entire road transport sector of dependence on oil by 2020. That is massively ambitious if one thinks about where Israel is in the world and its geopolitical relations with some of its neighbours. I think that we can all think of particular reasons why Israel is going down that route, but none the less it is deeply impressive.

Israel is choosing a different model, I think it is fair to say, from that of the United Kingdom. It is looking to sign up to the Better Place concept, which will largely involve changing the engines in cars—engines will be swapped over. The depleted battery is taken out of a car and in under a minute, I understand, a new, fully charged battery supply is put in and one can carry on driving. In less time, therefore, than it currently takes to fill up with petrol at the pump, the car can be on the road again—a fully-charged vehicle that will travel another 100 miles.

It is worth mentioning the context of the debate, because of Israel’s scale and ambition. The Minister will probably have good and valid reasons, which I would accept, to say that it is probably not right for the United Kingdom to go down that particular route. For various infrastructure reasons, it is probably right that we do not. If we are not going down that route, however, how do we in the United Kingdom achieve that level of transformational change? How do the Government envisage United Kingdom companies, some of which were mentioned by my hon. Friends, taking advantage of the £1.3 billion loan scheme for the development of low-carbon technologies that is available from Europe? We need to ensure that we receive our fair share of that money.

When new technology comes to the fore, initially it is clearly expensive and there is low take-up. I think that if we are honest, at the moment electric cars are—perhaps I am slightly parodying—for rich idealists. Frankly, the economics do not quite stack up at the moment. I illustrate that by looking at the on-the-road cost of the new Nissan Leaf, which will be produced in Sunderland. That is an excellent vehicle. I was privileged to see one close to Parliament recently. It is a five-door hatchback—a very nice-looking car. It will be made in Britain, which is fantastic. Its on-the-road price, however, is £30,990. The Government’s £5,000 plug-in car grant, which is an excellent initiative that I commend, brings the price down to £25,990 but, for me, that is a very expensive car. I do not know what sort of cars my hon. Friends drive, but to me that would be an awful lot of money. I expect that for many of my constituents that would be much more than they would spend on a car. Frankly, I do not think that they would get the payback from the cheaper costs of motoring after that level of investment.

There is, however, a tipping point that comes with the introduction of new technology. When there are the advantages of economies of scale—mass production and so on—prices come down as new technology comes in. More people buy these things, so they are cheaper to produce and so on. Shai Agassi, in a speech that I read recently, anticipates a tipping point around 2015 when the economics start to stack up. If that is the case, things could change very quickly, which is why I raise the issues of scale and whether the United Kingdom will be able to meet the level of demand that I anticipate. If, for all of our constituents, an ultra low-carbon emission vehicle is cheaper than a conventional fossil fuel internal combustion engine, we will all want those vehicles straight away, because we will be fed up with paying the higher costs of motoring. Those issues of scale, and whether the United Kingdom is able to provide that amount of cars and make money from those huge levels of sales, will be a significant issue.

What is the Government’s view on the economics of investing in their own fleets across various Departments? Examples might include NHS delivery lorries or Royal Mail vans that go back to the same place every night, where they could be recharged; they might have a set route or series of routes and are excellent cases for conversion into electric vehicles. What progress are the Government making in ensuring that their commercial fleets in particular consist of ultra low-carbon vehicles—whether the electric or the plug-in variety?

[Mr Marcus Jones]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. He makes an important point about Departments, local authorities and so on investing in electric vehicles. Does he agree that it is extremely important that, where practicable, we procure such vehicles from British manufacturers?

[Andrew Selous]

I very much agree. I, too, am passionate about home-made British production. We ought to buy British as often as we can. We are all subject to the so-called OJEU rules—named after the Official Journal of the European Union—under which public bodies must go through strict and unbiased procurement procedures. Sometimes, therefore, we have our police driving around in Volvos or other foreign-made cars. When I go to France, Germany or Italy, however, I hardly ever see French, German or Italian police officers in anything other than a car made in their home country—likewise for fire-fighting equipment and so on.

I postulate to the Minister that this country might be a little too rigorous in applying those OJEU rules. We have a fine automotive industry that makes excellent vehicles and, frankly, the police will catch no more criminals by driving around in Volvos and BMWs rather than in fine, British-made cars.

We digress; I will hastily return to the point, before you bring me back to it, Mrs Riordan. However, I am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton.

The Department for Transport asked whether 2011 would be the year in which the electric car takes off. There is certainly increasing interest, which is tremendous, and I commend the Government for the excellent £5,000 subsidy. My view of the economics is that we are not quite at the right point yet, but we will be very soon. Lewis Booth, the chief financial officer of Ford, has asked for how long Governments will be subsidising electric vehicles. If the Minister can shed any light on that issue, that would be helpful. In this early phase, private industry needs certainty for the future, particularly in planning.

Philippe Varin, the chief executive of Peugeot, has said that the European Union’s research and development support for electric vehicles is too cumbersome and complicated, which is a concern. If we are to compete against Japan, China and America, we in the European Union and this country need to get our act together in research and development funding.

I was delighted to read that the Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), said in a departmental press release that the UK was Europe’s leading producer of ultra low-carbon vehicles. That made fantastic reading. I have already spoken of the production due to start shortly, or in early 2013, at the Sunderland plant. I hope we can maintain that position.

I am conscious that France, with Peugeot and Renault, is also ambitious in the area of ultra low-carbon vehicle production. The country has a plentiful supply of low-cost nuclear electricity, and it views itself as having a chance to challenge the dominance of the Germans in the European automotive industry. I repeat that everyone here is ambitious for Britain; we were the workshop of the world, and the industrial revolution took place here. I want us to be right at the front and centre, not running behind any other European country in this massive industry of the future.

I move on to the whole issue of charging points. It is all very well having an ultra low-carbon, electric vehicle—whether a hybrid or a pure electric one such as the Nissan Leaf—but if there is nowhere to plug it in when on a longish journey, the problem is that it will grind to a halt.

Again, the Government are active on that issue, and I commend them for that. We recently had the announcement of a £20 million plugged-in places grant to provide more than 4,000 charging points in the midlands, Greater Manchester, the east of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, building on an earlier scheme in London and Milton Keynes. Yesterday, I checked with my own local authority and found that my constituency of South West Bedfordshire does not include a single charging point. That will change, however, because we are in the east of England and will receive some of the charging points from the plugged-in places grant. Colleagues from areas that I have not mentioned might want to ask the Minister what the plans are for those areas.

Currently, London has 250 charging posts. Transport for London is aiming for 25,000 charging posts by 2015—a level of transformational change that might need to go further, but is a significant increase. Some 90% of the 25,000 posts are intended to be in workplace car parks and 250 will be fast-charge charging points, which are important for longer journeys, when someone does not want to have to stop for eight or six hours to recharge the battery fully. We need to get the mix of charging points right for the future, so that this technology takes off. In Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, near the Sunderland car plant to which I referred, 1,300 charging points are being installed.

Smart-meter, low-cost charging can also greatly reduce energy costs. If cars can be charged when there is much less demand on the national grid, that is much cheaper. That reduction in the energy cost can be important, and it is where smart meters come in. I am interested in whether the Minister will be able to enlighten us further on that aspect of Government policy.

I am concerned about the lack of standardisation of charging points in the European Union. Indeed, why can we not have standard charging points around the whole world? In the past, technologies have battled things out. With the video or the DVD, a common format for one worldwide product was arrived at eventually. That should be the case for charging points, in Europe at least. Many British people will want to drive their electric cars to France or elsewhere in Europe for summer holidays, skiing or whatever, and they need to be able to charge while they are there. The European Union could do something useful and practical for our constituents. What representations is the United Kingdom making to ensure standardised charging throughout Europe?

Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) rightly mentioned training the work force. None of what I have been discussing will happen unless we have the skilled technicians in this country; unless we get it right, we will lose out to other countries that have invested more and have an appropriately trained work force. The Institution of Mechanical Engineers is worried about the lack of apprentices with the skills to work on electric vehicles, particularly in smaller businesses that may not be able to afford to train apprentices. How will that be rectified? It said that about 10,000 additional apprentices are needed in this area of electronic manufacturing to take advantage of and to satisfy the demand that is surely coming.

I am interested in the Government’s attitude to hydrogen-powered vehicles. I read carefully the note from the Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology, which states of hydrogen fuel cells:

“This is a low-carbon form of transport if the hydrogen is generated using electricity from low-carbon sources.”

I made that point at the start of the debate, and I want to check whether that is the Government’s view. Professor David MacKay, who was a Government adviser—I should be grateful if the Minister told us whether he is still advising them—and who is an eminent professor of physics at Cambridge university, wrote “Sustainable Energy—Without the Hot Air”, to which I referred. His take on hydrogen is that hydrogen vehicles make our energy problem worse rather than better. I do not know whether he is right, but I would be interested to know the Government’s view. I know that one large UK motor manufacturer, which I contacted before the debate, was keen to obtain clarity on the Government’s view of the future of hydrogen-powered vehicles.

I have driven a hydrogen-powered vehicle round the Cranfield test centre in Bedfordshire. It drove extremely well, as did the Vauxhall Ampera, which I have also driven and which will be on sale in the United Kingdom from next year. I hope that it will be made in Ellesmere Port. I wish that it was being made in my constituency at Luton in Bedfordshire, but it would be fantastic if it was made in the United Kingdom. That, too, drives extremely well, and all the evidence is that when people get into an electric vehicle and discover that it has a nice feel and good acceleration, and is not sluggish, they are enthusiastic and keen to adopt the new technology. We just have to get over some of the financial issues to which I alluded at the start of the debate.

I should like to know the Government’s view on the use of biofuels for vehicles. There is concern about the sustainability of biofuels and the fact that we may be inappropriately using land for biofuels when it should be used to produce food. What is the Government’s view on that? Likewise, where does liquid petroleum gas fit into the Government’s view of the new technology that we have been talking about?

We must pause to consider the improvements that can be made to internal combustion engines. We have 28.4 million cars on our roads, and Britain makes around 3 million car engines every year. They are becoming more efficient and lighter, and the technology is improving. I noted from the Volkswagen website that the Blue Motion Polo—unfortunately, it is not made in this country—emits 91 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre, compared with 89 grams per kilometre for the Toyota Prius, which I guess may occasionally ferry the Minister around; the Prius comes in at just under, but it is very close. An expertly engineered internal combustion engine produces only 2 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre more than a hybrid vehicle. We must differentiate between different types of internal combustion engine, because new technology is advancing swiftly.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

My hon. Friend talks about research and development, and innovative design of combustion engines. Many of my constituents work for Jaguar Land Rover, which is near my constituency. It is doing a fantastic job in changing how it produces its engines and how its vehicles are constructed—to be lighter and more fuel efficient. Does my hon. Friend agree that policy across Government should be to encourage through the taxation system not just the production of vehicles that cost less to run, but their ownership?

[Andrew Selous]

I thank my hon. Friend for his further intervention. I am glad that he mentioned Jaguar Land Rover, which has not been mentioned so far in the debate. It is doing excellent work on producing an electric hybrid Range Rover, which is fantastic, and it is co-operating fully with the Government on some of the bodies that I mentioned earlier. My vision is that all British-based manufacturers will be at the front and centre of the new technology and will supply the demand that will come down the track surprisingly and frighteningly fast in a few years’ time, when we reach the tipping point at which it becomes more economic to drive such vehicles rather than pay the exorbitant and cripplingly high prices that we have to put up with at petrol stations at the moment.

The United Kingdom has a history of inventing, but then not commercially exploiting, new technologies. I do not want us to repeat mistakes of the past. If we can seize the opportunities that I have outlined, we can protect our environment, provide jobs, increase our energy security and give our constituents a low-cost motoring future. I believe that they would thank us for that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Baker]

As the hon. Gentleman says, the debate is not about railways, so we should not spend too much time on this, but the Department for Transport’s projections show increasing numbers of passengers on the railways. Only this week, record numbers of rail passengers were announced, not least because of the price of fuel, which my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire mentioned.

I am glad that the Opposition spokesman mentioned high-speed lines in a positive sense, and I look forward to the Opposition confirming that they have retained the last Administration’s position of supporting high-speed rail. It is important that there is cross-party agreement on the issue, and I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman’s boss has so far been unable to say definitively that high-speed rail would continue if there were a Labour Government.

Let me turn in more detail, however, to the subject before us: electric and low-carbon vehicles. Notwithstanding the comments about railways and low-carbon transport locally, the fact remains that most journeys are undertaken by car, and that will remain the case for the foreseeable future. The reason is that cars are a convenient means of getting from A to B and are the only practical alternative for a great many journeys. Yes, people can take a different means of transport if they are in a city centre, and they can use the railways if they are going from one city centre to another, but the car is the only alternative for most journeys. We must therefore ensure that it is in a good place to contribute sensibly to our environmental and economic objectives. As I said in opposition, and I am happy to say again in government, the enemy is the carbon, not the car, and that is what we should focus on in our attempts to move forward on transport policy.

In the short term, the majority of CO₂ savings from road transport will come from improvements to conventional technologies, and that is broadly acknowledged across the House and across industry. I have been impressed by car manufacturers’ ability to tweak—that is perhaps an understatement—or adjust their technology in a productive way to deliver reduced carbon emissions from conventional engines, and one of the models mentioned competes favourably with a hybrid engine. EU regulations on fuel efficiency have helped to drive that process. Similarly, the manufacturing industry’s competitive will has helped to respond to the general environmental challenge that we all face. We will continue to work with manufacturers and our EU partners to squeeze more fuel efficiency out of petrol and diesel cars and vans because that will provide the biggest short-term gain. However, we are also preparing for the more revolutionary change that is the subject of the debate.

Of course, the take-up of ultra low-carbon cars may be slow at first, and nobody should be surprised by that. Whenever a new technology is introduced, there is always a slow take-up and then a rising line on the graph as people get used to the technology and gain confidence in it. The price then starts declining because the market is developed, and part of the Government’s strategy is to help to ensure that the market is kick-started and developed. There should be no concern about the number of electric vehicles that have been sold to date, because the trajectory is the one we would anticipate and is entirely consistent with our significant ambition for four years ahead, to which I will return shortly.

We are putting in place the incentives we need to establish a market for these pioneering technologies, which will be supported by measures such as enhanced capital allowances, low benefit-in-kind taxation and variable vehicle excise duty. I am happy to say that we are joined in our effort by a number of private and public sector organisations. To respond to one of the points that has been made, the Royal Mail is undertaking trials with electric vans. Sky is seeing what the plug-in Toyota Prius is like to live with. In my Department, the Government Car and Despatch Agency is testing five plug-in Toyotas and a Smith electric van, so we are doing what we can.

To support the development of the market for low-carbon vehicles further, we need to ensure that the right infrastructure, specialist supplier base and customer incentives are in place, and that is exactly what we are doing. We have confirmed our support for a range of research and development programmes across the green vehicle sector. Through the Technology Strategy Board’s low-carbon vehicles innovation platform, we are working with key partners to deliver a strategic vision for automotive R and D. Last year, we announced that a further £24 million was being awarded to six winning consortia from the latest competition, which makes a total of £52 million with contributions from business.

All of that will make a significant contribution to greener vehicle development in this country, to pick up the point rightly made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). That development includes hybrid technologies, composite materials and engines that recover waste heat energy. The vehicles that will benefit include plug-in hybrids from Nissan, Lotus and Jaguar Land Rover, extended-range electric cars and a lightweight hybrid refuse collection vehicle. Through the plug-in car grant, we are helping to lower the up-front costs of such vehicles. There are nine eligible cars, which are, and will be, on our roads, with more than 500 orders already placed under the scheme, as has been mentioned.

Our objective has always been real grants for real cars: cars that are safe and reliable, that meet the needs of real motorists and that provide a motoring experience that is as good as, if not better than, that provided by the conventionally powered vehicles people currently drive. It is important that the new generation of cars have that consumer confidence and that their performance is similar to, or better than, that of existing vehicles. If we are to have uptake, we absolutely must have that. Fifteen or 20 years ago, I did some work on green washing powders, which, quite frankly, were not as effective as normal washing powders, so the uptake was limited. If green technology is to take off, we must get its performance up to the level of that of existing technology.

The scheme was launched in January, with buyers receiving a grant of 25% of the price of a green car, up to £5,000. That, of course, also applies to business buyers. The scheme has been well received by the public and by business. We have shown our strong commitment to supporting the market by confirming support for the grant for the lifetime of this Parliament. To pick up the point raised by the shadow Minister, it is right that the sum involved is £43 million until March 2012. The spending review has confirmed the provision of about £300 million to support consumer incentives for the life of this Parliament. The hon. Gentleman can have confidence that this is not a stop-start arrangement, but something we will see through to make sure that there is confidence in the market.

Through these initiatives, we want to encourage motorists to embrace cleaner and greener vehicles. By encouraging demand, we will stimulate investment in mass production which will, in turn, bring down costs and further boost demand. That is what we have seen with all new technologies, whatever the field, and things will be no different with electric vehicles.

Let me turn now to some of the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire. He mentioned the carbon reduction from an electric car powered by the existing grid, and he is right to draw attention to the need to change the grid mixture. Indeed, when we came into the Chamber at the end of the previous debate, my next-door neighbour, the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), was responding to a debate on that very matter. The Government are well seized of the need to develop a cleaner, greener grid, which will undoubtedly increase further the advantages of electric cars. Even if the existing grid is used with a new electric car, however, there can be up to 40% carbon savings. There are also further benefits in terms of reducing air pollution from tailpipes and so on. We should change the grid, but even if we do not, there are still many good reasons to pursue electric vehicles, which is what we are doing.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton referred to the regional growth fund, and I can assure him that the Department for Transport is drawing the attention of other Departments, including the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, to the advantages of transport investment, including in this field. He will know of the Transport Secretary’s enthusiasm for these issues, and he can rest assured that my right hon. Friend will not lose an opportunity to advance them in discussions with fellow Cabinet Ministers.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire asked about the 2020 target, as it were, for electric vehicles. There is no doubt that we want a big uptake of these vehicles. The figure achieved will be determined by external factors to some extent, for example the price of oil. If the price rises dramatically, it will, I suggest, hasten the development and uptake of electric vehicles, but if the price declines, it will make it less attractive to move forward on that trajectory. Therefore, some outside factors mean that it might not be sensible to set a target. We should say, as we have said, that we must decarbonise road transport if we are to make serious inroads in our carbon emissions in the transport sector.

We should and we have done stuff on rail and encouraged cycling and walking in urban centres, but ultimately the big gain will come from decarbonising road transport. We must put in place high-level objectives for carbon reduction and economic growth and the mechanisms to deliver the outcome we want, which, in this case, is a big uptake in electric vehicles. We must then monitor the uptake without necessarily setting arbitrary targets for how many vehicles there should be by 2020. Having said that, “The fourth carbon budget” report has made some recommendations and we appreciate the efforts made in that regard. We have not formally responded to them, but we will publish our views in October, and we might be able to give more detail on the number of electric vehicles we could achieve when we publish that.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire referred to the incentives for purchasing electric vehicles, and I am grateful that he welcomes the £5,000 grant. The economics are not quite as negative as he might feel. On current petrol prices, an electric car such as a Nissan Leaf could save the average motorist up to £1,000 a year in running costs, so, taking account of the plug-in car grant and the vehicle excise duty benefits, even now someone could get a payback in seven years. I accept that that could be better and we want to make it better, but there is a sensible payback period for people to consider when they invest in such vehicles.

[Andrew Selous]

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for the serious way in which he is responding. What he has just said is, in some ways, the most important thing that has been said in the whole debate, and I am grateful to him. The fact that the payback could be within seven years is very welcome news. He has told us about it here, but it is probably rather a well kept secret at the moment, so we need to publicise it slightly more. I ask him to do that.

[Norman Baker]

They always say that if one wants to keep a secret, tell the House of Commons. It is worth pursuing that issue further and I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s suggestion. My officials are here and we will see what we could usefully do to promote the scheme further.

I mentioned the need to ensure that the performance of electric vehicles is satisfactory, but if we are to make progress, we also need to ensure, as far as possible, that the economics are satisfactory. Once those two things are in place, people will embrace the new technology in a welcome way. People want to be green, provided that they can afford to be and that their vehicles do not lack performance as a consequence.

Those who have contributed to today’s debates raised the issue of the infrastructure. We are determined to roll out an effective infrastructure for electric vehicles, hence the inclusion in the coalition agreement of a commitment to mandate a national recharging network. Our plugged-in places programme is helping to do just that. The scheme will provide valuable data on how and where people recharge their cars, so that we can get the national network right. To help achieve that, we are working on a strategy for promoting the roll-out of charging infrastructure, and we will publish it this summer. More details will be available then.

In December last year, as my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire knows, we announced five more plugged-in places: Northern Ireland, central Scotland, Greater Manchester, the midlands and the east of England will all receive match funding to install electric vehicle recharging infrastructure. Those projects join the schemes in London, Milton Keynes and the north-east of England, which the previous Government began.

The programme is real and happening now. Charging points are already appearing on our streets—the most visible sign of the growing market—and will soon, I hope, become a common feature on streets and in homes, workplaces, and private and public car parks, so consumers can charge their cars easily, safely and conveniently. To pick up the point made by my hon. Friend, they will have confidence that they will not be left stranded somewhere without a power source. That concern is also addressed by the development by manufacturers, who are pushing at the boundaries, of increasing range for electric vehicles.

This is a new market and these are new technologies. The projects will test a variety of business and operating models and different technological approaches. The knowledge that we gain will inform the developing national strategy for infrastructure. Of course, we want the UK to benefit from the business and competitive opportunities of ultra-low-carbon cars. We want green growth and we want it here. We want UK businesses to seize commercial opportunities in the sector and are supporting them to do so.

The move to ultra-low-emission vehicles presents opportunities to support the economic recovery, green growth and the creation of high-tech, low-carbon jobs. The automotive sector is already our No. 1 manufacturing export, directly employing around 156,000 people in the UK and a further 150,000 in the supply chain. The sector is worth nearly £6.5 billion to the UK economy in terms of gross value added, so as the automotive sector goes green, the UK is well positioned to reap the benefits. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton that the Department for Transport, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and the Treasury are working together and are closely focused on doing that.

The Nissan Leaf will be made in Sunderland from early 2013, with production growing to 50,000 vehicles per year. Nissan will assemble battery packs for the Leaf on the same site, starting in 2014 and growing to 60,000 units per year. Those are real, green jobs, and they are helping to create growth and cut carbon—the two objectives of the Department for Transport.

I turn to the other questions that were raised. I dealt with the length of the subsidy for electric vehicles. There is competition from Europe—there is no doubt about that. France has aggressive plans for infrastructure and vehicle uptake, but the UK has been allocated the largest number of Nissan Leafs in Europe, which demonstrates that we are seen as a leading market, and we are working to position the UK to take advantage of the business opportunities that the market brings.

To be frank, the standardisation of charging points is a difficult issue and not one for which there is an immediate solution. The International Electrotechnical Commission has developed international standards for electric vehicle recharging and there are discussions in the EU to get progress on a standardised charging system. However, the national interest sometimes has a role in the consideration of the best way forward, as my hon. Friend will understand.

[Andrew Selous]

Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that this is one area in which the EU could play a useful role? Many people think that getting some form of standardisation is exactly what the EU is for.

[Norman Baker]

I entirely agree, and I hope that the EU comes up with a solution that does not reflect national interest, but European interest, and makes sense for manufacturers and consumers by keeping costs down. That would be an entirely sensible outcome for many EU discussions. I assure my hon. Friend that we are using our influence, as far as we have any, to push for exactly that outcome.

[Norman Baker]

I agree that we do not want to leave ourselves in a position where, to be blunt, we are outflanked. We must try to achieve a consensual arrangement for a single recharging solution that everyone can embrace. That is clearly the desired outcome, and it will ultimately be to the benefit of all countries in the European Union and more widely. Indeed, as we heard earlier, the best solution will be an international one, as it will keep manufacturing costs down and therefore the cost to the consumer down, too. We are seized of the need to make progress, but the House will appreciate that it is not entirely within our control.

The matter of apprentices was raised, especially the fact that we need a sufficient number with the skill to work on electric vehicles. I am happy to reassure the House that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are working together to identify the necessary skills and to consider how the demand-led further education system will deliver them. We are talking to the sector skills councils and the Commission for Employment and Skills about ensuring that the demand for green skills is shared with further education colleges and other providers. We plan to maintain a strong cross-Government focus on the STEM subjects of science, technology, engineering and maths.

[Andrew Selous]

The Minister is being generous in giving way, which I appreciate. What he said about schools is critical. To be blunt, if people do not have a GCSE in physics, they will probably not even make the starting gate. However, there is a chronic lack of physics teachers. I know that this is stretching the Minister’s departmental responsibilities, but it is important that we join these things up. Nothing will happen unless schools have the basic physics that will lead people on.

[Norman Baker]

As suggested, the number of physics teachers may be slightly beyond my brief at the Department for Transport. However, I have some sympathy for the point being made by my hon. Friend. The mindset in some areas and among some people is that manufacturing is an old-fashioned dirty business, and that people who want to progress in life should get white-collar jobs. That is unfortunate, and the Government are trying to change that mindset. Manufacturing is most important to the country, and it is a skilled task. Anything that schools can do to help promote it is entirely to be welcomed. My officials and I will ensure that my hon. Friend’s comments are drawn to the attention of the relevant Minister at the Department for Education.

Before I run out of time, I shall deal with the other points that were raised. Hydrogen was mentioned. I return to the Government’s objectives, which are twofold—to create growth and to cut carbon. I do not want to get into the business of picking winners in the technology that finally emerges. It may be that what emerges is not an overarching technology; there may be different solutions for different vehicles, with the solution for council refuse collection vehicles being entirely different from that for the car that takes people to visit their aunts and uncles.

We should be careful not to impose Government solutions, or to guess which way technology is taking us. We should specify the outcome that we want—that of decarbonised road transport—and invite manufacturers, those involved in research development and others to come up with a way of achieving that objective. It is not for us to second-guess things, although it is tempting. I do not mean that as a criticism of the previous Government, but they started promoting liquefied petroleum gas in 2001-02. They had good intentions, but it turned out that the environmental benefits were less than they thought at first. To some extent, people were being led up the hill and back down again, and we need to avoid such outcomes.

We have a similar situation with biofuels, which were referred to today, and we must be careful to avoid the same problem. Biofuels were originally seen as the big solution, the silver bullet. Pressure groups were pressing the Government to do more with biofuels, but then did an about-face, saying that biofuels were terrible and had awful consequences. Biofuels, too, went up the hill and down again.

Biofuels are within my brief, but it is taking time to get the issue right. We believe that they have a role in transport, but they must be sustainable. They must also demonstrate carbon saving and show that they do not have unwanted consequences for the environment through indirect land use or in any other way. If we get the foundations right, we can build on them, but we cannot have the biofuels industry being built on sand or we shall run into environmental difficulties in the years ahead. That is why we are taking more time. We are consulting on the renewable energy and the fuel quality directives, and people have the opportunity to feed in comments. I hope that the Opposition will get involved in those consultations, to ensure that our policies on biofuels are right.

I turn to the comments of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish. He spoke about fuel duty and VAT on fuel. It might have been fairer if he had referred to the fact that the Chancellor cut fuel duty by 1p in the Budget; he might also have referred to the fact that the Chancellor abandoned the above-inflation increases that the previous Government intended to introduce. There is an argument to be had about where the price of fuel should be, given its impact on the environment and the economy, and it is perfectly legitimate to engage in that argument, but we should have the facts before making the necessary judgments.

The hon. Gentleman spoke about our being the greenest Government ever, but the time to judge that will be at the end of this Parliament; only then will we be able to see whether the policies that started off down the track have been enacted and where they ended. I, for one, am determined that the aspiration should be turned into reality. I want us to be the greenest Government ever, and I have no reason to think that other Ministers take a different view. I believe that the Prime Minister, too, is committed to that objective. The time to judge us will be at the end of this Parliament, and I hope that we will have an overwhelming case to demonstrate that we have achieved that challenging objective.

As for the green investment bank, it did not exist under the previous Government. Whether or not it is allowed to borrow is a moot point. We created the bank and we have given it borrowing powers, which is a substantial departure from normal Treasury policy. It does not start until 2015, but it is a major achievement, and I hope that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish will acknowledge that; rather than painting everything as a glass half empty, he should recognise that the glass is half full—and getting fuller as time goes on.

[Andrew Selous]

I return, if I may, to what I believe is the most significant factor—the seven-year payback. Would the Minister be prepared to write to me, perhaps giving the matter further publicity, setting out the illustrative figures? I accept that they are illustrative and that they make assumptions about the price of fuel and so on, but that seven-year payback is critical. Would he be kind enough to set them out in a letter? I hope that he might also give the matter wider publicity, which could be critical in moving this vital industry forward.

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to give that assurance. I shall write to all Members present as a matter of courtesy. The Government will do whatever we can to promote electric cars and the uptake of low-carbon vehicles. We are committed to that agenda. That is why I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire for introducing this important debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

The details of that particular scheme are still being worked out, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that discussions on it have involved me, the Secretary of State and the Transport Minister, who has responsibility for rail. Enabling tram-train to go ahead could provide an important benefit to public transport. We want to get the details right, so no firm decision has yet been taken.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

14. What steps he is taking to encourage greater use of low-emission vehicles.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Decarbonisation of motor transport is one of my key priorities. The recent spending review announced that the Government have made provision of over £400 million for measures to promote the uptake of ultra-low carbon vehicle technologies. These measures include support for consumer incentives, development of recharging infrastructure, and a programme of research and development work.

[Andrew Selous]

When does my right hon. Friend expect that it will be an economically rational decision for most people to buy a low-emission vehicle?

[Mr Hammond]

I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that with the benefit of the Government’s consumer incentive of up to £5,000 a vehicle, it will be an eminently rational decision for anyone to start purchasing an electric vehicle from next February, when they appear on the UK’s roads. The cost per kilometre of running an electric vehicle that is charged overnight with cheap-rate electricity will be between 1p and 3p, which compares favourably with the price of petrol.

A5 to M1 Link

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to Mr Speaker for giving me the chance to raise with the Minister responsible for roads the vital need for the A5 to M1 link. When I made my maiden speech, on 2 July 2001, I stressed the urgent need for a bypass for Dunstable, Houghton Regis and the surrounding villages. I also stressed its importance to Leighton Buzzard as a business location. The need for a bypass in Dunstable is not new; indeed, the first mention of congestion in the town that I have been told about is in a 1924 newspaper article that talked about the traffic bottleneck in Dunstable. My predecessor, Sir David Madel, who was the Member for South West Bedfordshire for 31 years, from 1970 to 2001, also campaigned for a bypass for Dunstable throughout his time in Parliament.

Not long after my election, I presented another petition to the House, signed by 25,000 of my constituents—more than elected me in 2001—calling for the urgent need for a bypass to be addressed. I was therefore delighted when, in July 2003, the then Secretary of State for Transport—now the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling)—announced to the House that he was

“endorsing recommendations for improvements to some trunk roads of regional importance,”

one of which was

“a northern bypass for Dunstable”.—[Official Report, 9 July 2003; Vol. 408, c. 1177.]

I asked him when the Dunstable northern bypass would be built. In reply, he said:

“In the past five years, there have been long and detailed studies, but the time has now come when we need to get on and implement them, precisely to remove some of the inconvenience and congestion and to deliver the improved safety about which he is concerned.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2003; Vol. 408, c. 1195.]

I was therefore hugely disappointed when, at the end of the Parliament after which the then Secretary of State announced that the Dunstable northern bypass would be built, not a shovel had hit the ground.

It is a huge source of concern to me how long it takes for a new road to be built in this country. I understand that other European countries are able to build roads much more quickly. I understand that there is a much shorter delay between the announcement of a road being built and its completion in many of our competing neighbouring countries. One consequence of delay is that the cost escalates hugely, making even more demands on the public purse. The cost of the A5 to M1 link has virtually tripled since the first estimates back in 2003. I have spoken in the past of the near-Zimbabwean levels of inflation on major roads contracts. I understand that the Department insists on open book accounting, yet I cannot help believing that there must be cheaper ways for such roads to be built. I suggest that we need to take an urgent look at how genuine the competition is between road builders, to ensure that the Department and the taxpayer get real value for money in building new roads.

Sometimes I am tempted to think that the area that I represent has become, if not the land that time forgot, then the land that successive Governments have forgotten to build the necessary infrastructure in. In the north of Bedfordshire, the county town of Bedford seems to have all the bypasses that it needs. I had not even heard of the village of Ridgmont, to the north of my constituency, until I was told that it was to receive its own much- needed bypass. As I will demonstrate shortly, the need for a bypass to the north of Dunstable is overwhelming for the residents of Dunstable, Houghton Regis and the surrounding villages, but a bypass is also essential for Leighton Buzzard.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned the village of Ridgmont. The bypass there has been gratefully received. Ridgmont is a village, and there are other villages in my constituency that will benefit hugely from the A5 to M1 link. Those villages will suffer from a lack of connectivity if the road to which he has referred is not built. Does he agree that it is imperative that the road should be built, not just for his constituency, but for the whole of Bedfordshire?

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. The road will also benefit major towns such as Aylesbury, in providing fast direct access to the national motorway network.

I do not want Ministers or officials at the Department for Transport to think for one moment that the Luton-Dunstable busway will provide the answers to the problems of congestion, retail decline and lack of business growth in Dunstable and Houghton Regis. It will not. The only hope to secure economic regeneration to provide much needed jobs for my constituents and to provide much needed local housing is for the A5 to M1 link to be built urgently.

The need for the A5 to M1 link can be demonstrated by many examples of life in Dunstable. Dunstable high street has 56 empty shops in it because of the length of time it takes for shoppers to get into and out of the town centre. Some reductions in business rates have been granted as a result, which obviously means a loss of revenue to the Exchequer. During recent times of economic growth, every other area of Bedfordshire increased its level of employment between 2001 and 2008, but in South Bedfordshire there was a loss of 1,850 jobs—overwhelmingly due to congestion. Those figures are taken from the annual business inquiry data provided by the Central Bedfordshire council.

Major employers have closed down and left the area over the years and have not been replaced by sufficient numbers of new employers to provide the jobs that my constituents need today. Many of my constituents are forced to travel out of the area to find work, thus making congestion even worse.

Congestion is bad both for travellers going north-south on the A5 through Dunstable as well as for travellers heading east-west on the A505 through Dunstable. One story from a local shopkeeper illustrates this well. A customer was travelling east on the A505 along West street, trying to get to a shop in the Quadrant shopping centre in the middle of Dunstable. He was stuck in traffic as so often happens; he rang the shop keeper who left his shop, crossed the middle of Dunstable, gave him the goods as he was stuck in traffic in his car. That customer then turned round in the road, and drove out of Dunstable never to come and shop in the town again. How can the shopkeepers of the town I am proud to represent make a living when they are faced with an infrastructure deficit as bad as that?

The economic benefits of building this road have been estimated by both the Highways Agency and the East of England to be very significant. Central Bedfordshire council, with its private sector developers, also intends to build the Woodside industrial estate connection road from the new junction 11A, which will not require Department for Transport funds.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I support everything he says. Does he accept that what he is suggesting will also bring enormous benefits to the town of Luton, especially when the bypass right across north Luton is built?

[Andrew Selous]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I am grateful for the support from him and from Luton borough council on this matter.

This road will greatly ease congestion in Dunstable and lead to much lower pollution levels and a better quality of life for those who live and work in the town centre. Dunstable and Houghton Regis will once again become towns that people can easily get in and out of to do business, shop, see their friends and socialise. This will greatly help all the shops in the town, as well as attracting many new employers to the area and persuading existing employers to expand their operations locally.

The improvement in air quality in the town centre should be significant and GPs from my own practice in central Dunstable tell me that levels of asthma among children living near the heavily congested A5, which runs through the centre of Dunstable as the town’s high street, are much higher than for children who live further away.

It has been estimated by the Highways Agency that the total economic benefits are in the region of £684 million, against the cost of £135 million. The Highways Agency says that there will be £263 million-worth of economic benefits for business users and £302 million-worth of benefits for consumers, while a study commissioned by the East of England and carried out by the consultants W. S. Atkins said there would also be a further £190 million of wider economic benefit. All those figures are at 2002 prices, following the Department for Transport’s guidance to enable common comparisons to be made. It is also estimated that the road will bring 5,750 extra jobs to be created through the release of new employment land, and I understand that a proposed rail freight depot at Sundon, creating a further 1,100 to 1,800 jobs, is also not likely to happen unless the A5 to M1 link is built.

I am very conscious that a string of figures can seem very dry and technical, but the fact is that this new road has the potential to change the lives of my constituents for the better. Let us think of the mother in Dunstable who told me recently that her 18-year-old son had knocked on the door of every employer in the town to be told there was no job for him locally. I believe that this road will make a difference for that young man, as well as for very many others.

The reason why the private sector developer is prepared to put in such significant private funding is that the road will enable 5,150 dwellings, which are essential to meet local affordable housing need, to be built. The A5 to M1 link will also enable other new housing developments to be built, thus greatly addressing housing need.

Concern has been expressed locally about the decision to suspend the public inquiry, at which I was due to give evidence this Friday in strong support of this much needed road. I understand why the Government have had to suspend public inquiries to ensure that the funding is available for those inquiries that do proceed. I am greatly heartened, however, by the fact that there is the offer of very substantial funding to pay for junction 11A and the Woodside industrial estate connection road from a local private sector developer. That offer is an example of exactly the type of public-private sector partnership for which both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have called. The offer will make the economic benefits I have described even greater as the cost to the public purse is significantly cut. I know that Department for Transport officials will tomorrow meet officers from Central Bedfordshire council and representatives of the private sector developer to discuss how this vital road can be taken forward.

I look forward to hearing what my hon. Friend the Minister has to say in reply. My constituents are reasonable people and understand that this Government have to be responsible with our public finances. My constituents have been patient and long-suffering over many years as the infrastructure that they have needed for their towns and villages to flourish has been denied them. They understand the need for the Government’s current spending review, but they also need to know that things will get better for them and that this road, which the previous Government agreed to build on 9 July 2003, will be built, and will be built soon. I will listen with hope and expectation to what my hon. Friend, who I know to be a conscientious and hard-working Minister, has to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Selous]

Hopefully the last.

[Mike Penning]

It may well be the last.

My hon. Friend has recently asked a number of questions of the Secretary of State, and I have tried to answer them in as much detail and with as much explanation as possible. I am sure that more will follow in the next few weeks, as is right and proper.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to concerns following the Government’s announcement on 10 June. I am sure that all hon. Members will feel that it was personal to them when the roads programme was suspended and all public inquiries stopped. The rationale behind the move was nothing personal in respect of any particular scheme. The decision had to be made on the basis of whether I could guarantee, and the Secretary of State could guarantee, the funding for a programme, subject to the spending review that will not be with us until October. I could not put forward public money for public inquiries without knowing whether the funding would be in place in the future for a road programme. Where we are using taxpayers’ money, it is important that we are diligent as to how it should be spent.

I know that that decision was a great disappointment, not only to my hon. Friend, but to the many people around the country who are involved in the many schemes and are lobbying me extensively every time that they bump into me. That is right and proper, but the supporters of schemes must understand how hard it is in this difficult financial situation that the previous Government have left us in. We have to be very diligent in determining how money is spent and we must not spend money in advance of its being allocated.

The reasons for postponing the public inquiry and not reinstating it even when there was an offer of partial funding from the private sector for this is that the programme would still have also contained much public funding. As I said, it would not be proper for us to go ahead with the public inquiry, irrespective of whether funding was coming from sources other than central funding, without knowing that we had the money to go forward. This part of the programme is only part of the project on the M1, and it is important that we have this scheme together when it goes before the public inquiry, should that happen.

As a general policy, we have therefore decided that forthcoming public inquiries throughout the country will be postponed for the time being. Our aim is to provide an indication of the way forward for all schemes once the spending review has been completed. Postponing the public inquiry into the A5-M1 link is entirely consistent with that programme around the country and we have taken a similar position with all other schemes.

The consequences of the delay are significant. I am conscious of that fact and I know that there is disappointment about this scheme and other schemes. Should the Secretary of State decide that the scheme should go ahead, it will not be possible to construct the A5-M1 link scheme in accordance with the timetable originally planned. In particular, it will be no longer possible to optimise construction with the works currently under way on the M1 between junctions 10 and 13, as previously intended.

The delay in the A5-M1 link will mean that there will be an increase in the cost of the scheme. We know that. It is not something that we wanted to happen, but it had to be that way otherwise we might have gone ahead with a programme for which we did not necessarily have the funding. I fully recognise how unfortunate and difficult it is for people who have been waiting so long for the scheme to go ahead, but with the funding uncertainties, it remains difficult—impossible, really—for us to go ahead with the public inquiry.

The Highways Agency will review the programme with the aim of minimising the time and cost consequences should the Secretary of State go ahead with the programme. Central Bedfordshire’s offer of funding, as I said earlier, was very welcome. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire has touched on something here that we can take forward with other programmes as regards how we engage the local community much more and how programmes can be seen to bring better bang for our buck, as it were, when so much public money is being spent.

I am also pleased that, as my hon. Friend knows, tomorrow there will be a meeting of my officials with the developers and others so that we can see what is on the table and what programmes are available. I keep having to put in the word “should”, because that is the way that it has to be, but should the programme go forward we will know better very early on how it can be taken forward.

The funding proposals described in the letter from my hon. Friend to the Secretary of State are of interest and I have asked my officials not only to have the initial discussions in the meeting tomorrow but to try to flesh out how they could be taken forward. But—I have to come back to this—it does not provide a sufficient basis to reinstate the public inquiry ahead of the spending review. I hope that my hon. Friend understands that.

The overall project would cost in excess of £150 million, approximately half of which would be for the new junction 11A on the M1. Therefore, even if developer funding were available to fund the cost of junction 11A in full, it would still be necessary for the Secretary of State to commit significant balances to the remainder of the scheme in order for the scheme to go forward. That is something that the Secretary of State is not prepared to do. I know that that has caused a lot of disappointment, but it is consistent with the way in which we have looked at all the projects around the country.

I should also add that if we were to reinstate the public inquiry now, it would not be able to start until the autumn due to the statutory time scales required. The delays would be back in place. That would mean that the construction programme would still be delayed beyond the previously planned start date. Nevertheless, there is scope for developer funding to improve the affordability of the scheme and to develop projects around the scheme and therefore its prospects within the spending review. I therefore consider it to be of the utmost importance that the scope of any funding support, with the whole programme available, should be developed as early as possible.

The way forward is for the benefits provided by the scheme to be considered carefully as part of the spending review. If the scheme remains a priority after the spending review and it can be delivered within the funding available to the Department along with, possibly, funding from local authorities and the developer, the Highways Agency will develop a revised programme to take the statutory process forward—particularly the public inquiry—in liaison with regional stakeholders.

In conclusion, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising these issues here today as well as in correspondence with me, privately, behind the Speaker’s Chair and at any other opportunity. I think that is right and proper and, as I said earlier, I would have done exactly the same if I were in his position because that is what a constituency MP does. He is not alone in his campaign: my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire and the hon. Member for Luton North, who are present, have also made their points. We have tried to be as fair as possible throughout the process. Having come to the Department only seven weeks ago, I have been very conscious of the need to make decisions early on, and the Secretary of State has been very conscious that we should be as consistent, open and public as possible throughout our decision making.

I hope that I have reassured my hon. Friend that the Department is aware of the importance of the A5-M1 link road scheme, and I hope also that he will appreciate the necessity of the Government not committing funds ahead of the comprehensive spending review. I look forward to having further discussions about this with him and other colleagues and officials—indeed, I will speak to officials tomorrow. I hope that by having this debate on the Floor of the House we have aired this issue, which is very important to his constituents and others, and I hope also that we will have an opportunity to look at the scheme properly when the spending review is finished.

Question put and agreed to.