Northern Ireland Finances

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This is the second of four ministerial statements to the House today. Notwithstanding its immense importance, and in the interests of accommodating subsequent business, I appeal to colleagues not to preface their questions with mini-speeches, but simply to ask a pithy question.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Nevertheless, Mr Speaker, I hope that you will allow me to add my best wishes to the Secretary of State on her birthday. I welcome the statement, particularly the bit in which she invites comments about how we might close the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has many helpful suggestions, and we will certainly be sending them to her.

I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to the written ministerial statement made on Thursday and the bit in which she says:

“Permanent Secretaries cannot… take the full range of decisions that would be available to Ministers”—[Official Report, 8 March 2018; Vol. 637, c. 20WS.],

which is, of course, perfectly correct. She goes on to say that Ministers will be helpful in offering guidance. May I press her on exactly what form that guidance will take? She has set out departmental expenditure limits, but there is little granularity—certainly in the public domain—about what actually constitutes those DELs.

[Karen Bradley]

I thank my hon. Friend, the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, for his good wishes, for his question and for the Committee’s work in looking at devolution in Northern Ireland. I was pleased to give evidence to the inquiry, and I know that the Committee has visited several institutions and other places in Northern Ireland to consider what might be done. I look forward to the Committee’s recommendations.

In the absence of ministerial direction from Stormont, my hon. Friend is right that there is concern about the work that civil servants can do. We have worked closely with them, ensuring that legal advice is received at all points, so that they have the support they need to take decisions based on those that were previously taken by the Executive or that the Executive had indicated would have been taken. I have written to the permanent secretaries to set out my view and to provide guidance on how any money, such as the health transformation money, should be spent in line with the Bengoa recommendations.

Northern Ireland

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his assertion of the DUP’s commitment to devolved government, which is warmly welcomed by everyone. He and I have had and will continue to have discussions about the budget. The shadow Secretary of State asked whether I would be consulting the parties about the budget. I have committed to do that and will ensure that I work with the right hon. Gentleman and his party’s Members on that. He fervently summed up the reasons why devolved government is so important.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement and warmly welcome seeing my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) back in his place and in fine form.

The head of the Northern Ireland civil service said to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on 24 January:

“It will be incredibly difficult for us if we do not have budget certainty by 8 February.”

It is now 20 February. What will the Secretary of State now do to set a budget and therefore the political direction that Northern Ireland so needs?

[Karen Bradley]

I thank the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. As I said in my statement, I am now working to ensure that we get certainty for civil servants in Northern Ireland—those dedicated public servants—and I will return to the House when I have further information.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 15th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

We are resolutely committed to upholding all parts of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and to finding a solution that works for the people of Northern Ireland and Ireland. We have had continued engagement with the Commission and have, in our judgment, made good progress in that regard. Various principles have been agreed that may well need to be incorporated in the final agreement.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

To what extent does my right hon. Friend think that the European Commission has considered articles 8 and 21 of the Lisbon treaty, which require the European Union to develop a special relationship with its neighbours, and to preserve peace and prevent conflict? To what extent will that be achieved by driving a border between Northern Ireland and its biggest trading partner by far—the United Kingdom of Great Britain?

[James Brokenshire]

Obviously we respect the European Union’s desire to protect the legal order of the single market and the customs union, but that cannot come about at the expense of the constitutional and economic integrity of the United Kingdom. As we have said, we recognise the need for solutions that are specific to the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland, and we all have a responsibility to be thoughtful and creative, but that cannot amount to the appearance of a new border within the United Kingdom.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

As I indicated to the hon. Gentleman, we are effectively talking about a sum of £10.6 billion for the departmental expenditure limits. For that figure, he will be able to refer back to previous statements I have made. The Northern Ireland civil service has made a further adjustment of £54 million, within that envelope, and it has allocated that money primarily to health and education: an additional £40 million to health and an additional £10 million to education. As I indicated to him earlier, if we look at the distinction between the 2016-17 and 2017-18 resource departmental expenditure limits, we see that it shows a movement from around £10.2 billion to £10.6 billion, which is where the 3.2% figure I quoted to him comes from—that year-on-year comparison. That means that, for example, on the budget lines of health there is a 5.4% increase, and for education there is a 1.5% increase. The Northern Ireland civil service and the Department of Finance have published full numbers in relation to the estimates and a further budget briefing. That briefing has been provided to all the political parties in Northern Ireland, in recognition that this is ultimately about a devolved budget, not a budget that is being set here in Westminster.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

May I take this opportunity to chide my right hon. Friend ever so gently? Had right hon. and hon. Members received a copy of the Bill in a more timely manner, they might have been able to refer to schedules 1 and 2, in which the departmental allocations are clearly laid out.

[James Brokenshire]

I understand the point that the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee makes. Equally, though, we brought the Bill before the House in such a way as to allow as much flexibility as possible for potential alternative legislation to be debated in the House today. Nevertheless, we are taking this budget Bill through the House, so the detailed information that the Northern Ireland civil service has provided—and, obviously, the allocations—is provided in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

I agree with the EU that it is absolutely essential that we avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland—that is absolutely clear. I agree with the EU that the Government do not seem to have serious or realistic proposals for fixing the problem. I agree with the EU that one potential outcome that would solve the problem would be if Northern Ireland remained in the customs union and had some sort of special arrangement. That is a very interesting idea that we ought to consider.

[Dr Murrison]

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise, as the Northern Ireland Committee found out on its recent visit to Newry, that the bulk of Northern Ireland’s trade is with Great Britain? What does he think his proposals would do to that?

[Conor McGinn]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I very much welcome the remarks made by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State about the violence in Northern Ireland at the weekend. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that it is an echo of a terrible past, and we must do everything in our power to ensure that those events are not replicated. Northern Ireland has come on so much in recent years, and it would be a terrible betrayal if we allowed these dreadful people to get any further purchase than they have.

I commend my right hon. Friend for his patience over the past several months. He has been an exemplar to us all. His patience has been matched only by that of right hon. and hon. Members waiting for the publication of the Bill we are discussing this afternoon; I received my copy at 3.56 pm. Particularly when we are dealing with a public policy area where there is a democratic deficit at the moment, it is vital that Members of the House have such materials in good time to be able to give them proper scrutiny, as I am sure he agrees.

The Bill is largely technical, and it is unobjectionable. I very much welcome the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who speaks for the Opposition, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) in, broadly speaking, supporting the Bill. We may disagree on certain elements of the way in which things are conducted and I would expect him to hold the Government to account, but it is very clear that there is consensus across the House on this important measure, which will enable the pay cheques to go out at the end of the month.

On 18 October, the Secretary of State gave a very helpful update and a time line on the way ahead to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which I have the privilege of chairing, and he reiterated a lot of that on 2 November, but I must press him again on contingency planning, since this process cannot simply be one of kicking the can down the road.

As we have already heard today—I will touch on this in my speech—right hon. and hon. Members have concerns about the important political decisions that must be made and the consequences of not making them in a timely manner. This matters to people’s lives. We can discuss things such as an Irish language Act, but the truth of the matter is that for most people for most of the time, their imperatives are about health and education. We must ensure, as far as we possibly can, that those things can be addressed, and that ultimately means having political accountability. I very much appreciate my right hon. Friend’s efforts to do what he can, within the constraints placed on him by this extraordinary situation, but we ultimately need ministerial accountability, in whatever form it may take.

May I, however, counsel caution? On the face of it, it sounds as though direct rule is a way out. I suspect that direct rule would be fairly easy to enter into, but it would be murderously difficult to unpick. I am also worried that once we have direct rule, there will not be the pressure, which currently exists, to restore the Executive. I am very concerned that we will do something with the very best of intentions that is not actually in the long-term interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

On 18 October, the Secretary of State stated that he was in fact planning on the basis of David Sterling’s “best estimates”. I want to press him a little on what those best estimates are, because they form the basis of the Bill before us. They are apparently based on the intentions of the ministerial intent of the pre-collapse Ministers, as stated at the tail end of last year. I am interested in what methodology has been used to determine that ministerial intent: is it simply a case of “suck it and see”, or is the process a little more rigorous and objective? If there is such a process, it really needs to be exposed to the scrutiny of this House.

In schedules 1 and 2, we have a shopping list of things, by Department, that might be done. The Bill allows for a fair amount of virement, and my worry is that the Northern Ireland civil service is being expected to do far too much. Ultimately, we need to have some degree of ministerial accountability, and that is completely lacking at the moment. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) mentioned that point in his comments about higher education, where ministerial decision making will be needed, and the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson) did so, too.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee heard a couple of weeks ago from the Chief Constable about how difficult it is to budget from month to month. Given that we are entering the new budget-setting process for the next year, does my hon. Friend not agree that we should look at setting the budget for the next financial year as well as for this one?

[Dr Murrison]

I certainly share the concern about long-term planning. In general, we do such planning through the normal budget system, but it is not clear to me how that is going to be achieved for the financial year 2018-19. I suspect our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be considering how that can best be achieved in short order, since we have only a matter of weeks in which to determine the budget for Northern Ireland, as for the rest of the United Kingdom, for future years.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to refer to our evidence session with the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, when he expressed his concern not just about finance, but about general accountability. Given that the Northern Ireland Policing Board has not been properly constituted, because of the impasse at Stormont, he is very concerned, as she will recall, about the democratic deficit and what that implies for accountability.

On testing the methodology on which the estimates are based, for me the most important thing to do is to look at the biggest spending Department. The biggest spending Department and the one with the second largest cash departmental expenditure limit is of course the Department of Health. Until the end of last year, the Minister in charge of the Department was Michelle O’Neill. She said last October, in response to Professor Bengoa’s health sector reform plan, that it was

“a foundation for my vision”—

we could not hope for a clearer statement of ministerial intent—and formed the basis of her 10-year vision.

It is not clear to me where and how that vision is captured in the budget presented, but we know that David Sterling has relied on what he understood to be the ministerial intent up to the point at which the Executive collapsed. It would be useful to know in greater detail how the purposes listed under the Department of Health in schedule 1 are being addressed with Bengoa’s plans in mind, given that they have been endorsed by the last Minister of Health in Northern Ireland. As it happens, those purposes are remarkably broad, but it is one of the smallest paragraphs in the schedule, which is somewhat strange given the extent of the health budget in Northern Ireland.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

I declare an interest in that my husband is the permanent secretary of the Department of Health in Northern Ireland.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the report looked forward in terms of transformation, which requires hard decisions and many years of preparation and hard work if we are to have efficiencies and savings without any impact on frontline services? We are now in November, and this money must be spent this financial year. Does he agree that the terrible situation we have been put in, because a budget was not put forward this time last year when it should have been, means that those decisions and the outcomes in the report are now very difficult to achieve?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Murrison]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. That is what I mean by kicking the can down the road. Those decisions have to be made by Ministers; it is unreasonable to put civil servants in that position, particularly given that we learnt today—I welcome my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s announcement—that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the National Audit Office will be given powers to submit reports, which will be open to the scrutiny of both Houses. I would not want to be in the position, as a civil servant, of having to make such decisions and bear that accountability, with no ministerial top cover, for any length of time, notwithstanding my earlier remarks about direct rule. I fear the consequences of such a position. It is the dilemma with which the Government are struggling.

[Sir Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con)]

On the Department of Health—this could also apply to other Departments—is my hon. Friend concerned that, although the budgets will be approved for continuing its work, there will be no room for any new initiative or flexibility, given that no Minister oversees it?

[Dr Murrison]

My right hon. Friend, who served in a distinguished way in the Northern Ireland Office, knows that full well. Decisions have to be made by Ministers, and my question is about the elements of the report, which I have highlighted simply as an exemplar, that would require ministerial direction, and the extent to which supplementary estimates might be introduced. Notwithstanding the welcome announcement of funding that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made today, to what extent can those estimates be laid before the House to achieve the purposes I described? I ask that with a certain trepidation, because I would counsel against the constant tabling of supplementary estimates, which would have the effect of introducing direct rule in dribs and drabs. If we need to look to direct rule, notwithstanding the risks, that must be clear, and not done by stealth and gradually, which would be a recipe for confusion.

[Vernon Coaker]

The hon. Gentleman has made interesting comments about direct rule and some of its dangers. Does he see a role for the Select Committee in considering how devolution could be restored, or how initiatives might be developed, perhaps along the lines that my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) mentioned, as well as others, to try to support the restoration of the Assembly and the Executive? Has the Committee given any thought to that, or to scrutinising how the budget process works if the Executive are not restored?

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is right on two counts. First, my Committee is mindful of its responsibility at this difficult time to scrutinise. Although constitutionally our position is to scrutinise the Northern Ireland Office’s work, we feel it incumbent upon us to be part of the process of scrutiny in a way that perhaps did not previously apply.

I know that investigating possible future models exercises the minds of members of my Committee, and the hon. Gentleman may think that we would like to work further on that. I do not want to pre-empt the Committee’s determinations, but when we have completed our current inquiry into the land border and Brexit, we would perhaps wish to consider and contribute to the debate on those possible models. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tacit endorsement of such a position.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I also sit on the Committee, and in support of my hon. Friend’s comments, I point out that we are trying to find a way of policing the border without its being obvious. We will suggest that in our report, and our way of looking at that seems fruitful.

[Dr Murrison]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend tempts me down a path, with which you might have some issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, but he is right, and our inquiry will continue to consider how we can make that border as invisible as possible. I referred earlier to the Committee’s recent visit to Newry, when we took the opportunity of eyeballing the border. It is a remarkably unexciting experience since the border is invisible—beautiful, but invisible—and we need to ensure that that continues to be the case.

Hon. Members have mentioned the Hart report into historical institutional abuse. The point is well made that there will be decisions that have some financial consequences—perhaps not primarily financial, but they need ministerial input in the weeks ahead. It is difficult to see how civil servants can make those determinations, given that the subject is so politically loaded. Little that happens in and around Northern Ireland does not have a political element, but something so clearly political requires ministerial input. I therefore gently suggest that it is unfair and unwise to put civil servants in the position of making such decisions.

[Sir Hugo Swire]

I am interested to learn of the work of my hon. Friend’s Committee, which becomes more important during this tricky period. In the run-up to Brexit, Northern Ireland’s economy is perhaps more important than ever. Will the Committee take a very real interest in the infrastructure, the inward investment and the development of Northern Ireland’s economy, especially in the Brexit period?

[Dr Murrison]

Yes. I share the concerns of many about Northern Ireland’s voice at this time. Northern Ireland is at the forefront of what will happen to this country after we leave the European Union, for better or for worse—in my opinion, for better, but I am prepared to admit that there are risks and opportunities in the process. It is vital that Northern Ireland, of all the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, has its voice heard, loud and clear. It is a dereliction of duty by the institutions and political parties in Northern Ireland that that is not happening. It seems to me a betrayal of the interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

I mentioned Michelle O’Neill in my remarks about the Bengoa report and her stewardship of the Department of Health in Northern Ireland. It is a sad state of affairs that she appears to be willing the ends in her 10-year vision for healthcare in Northern Ireland without willing the means. Hon. Members have made the point today that things like health and education really worry people in Northern Ireland—it is exactly the same for all our constituents—yet we seem prepared to put other things before those extraordinarily important services. I do not think that that represents the needs and aspirations of people at all well. I hope that those parties that are not prepared to come to the table to discuss those matters sufficiently to restore the Executive reflect on that.

I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State shares my fears that, the budget process having been achieved, nothing much will happen. There is an impasse at Stormont and I see no immediate prospect of the restoration of the Executive. We therefore need to start considering what we now do to ensure that the important objectives, such as for health and education, that we have discussed this afternoon, and the apportionment of funds this year, let alone next financial year, are achieved. To do that, it seems to me that we need to look at historical precedent. The Northern Ireland Act 1974 gave special powers to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee, which could scrutinise and comment on draft Orders in Council.

I suspect that the Secretary of State is giving some thought to measures that can be taken to ensure some input from people in Northern Ireland—those elected to represent views in Northern Ireland from civic society and so on. That will become urgent as we tip into the new year and start to consider the financial year 2018-19. It would be useful to hear from the Secretary of State what measures will be taken to consult Northern Ireland generally, and particularly elected representatives, to ensure that that voice is heard.

Accountability is a difficult concept with which to grapple. We are accountable to our constituents. Ministers are not accountable for much of the grey area that we have been discussing today. Sadly, that is falling between the cracks. However, we need to make as best a stab at it as we can before the Executive are restored. To do that, we need to look at institutions in Northern Ireland and try to work out how they can best give voice to public opinion and at least keep the flame of accountability alive in the Province.

[Maria Caulfield]

Does my hon. Friend not think it is particularly important that the voice of the nationalist community is heard, given that they do not have representation in this place or in the Assembly? Theirs is a voice unheard in terms of electoral representation.

[Dr Murrison]

Yes, I really do. Although it is of course Sinn Féin’s choice not to take its seats here—one that, as a democrat, I regret. Nevertheless, we need to ensure that both communities are heard. The Assembly may be one way of doing that and it would at least give MLAs something to do.

The last time we discussed this matter, on 2 November, the hon. Member for Pontypridd was very keen for MLAs to continue to draw their pay and rations. I do not agree with that and the bulk of people in Northern Ireland do not agree with it either, but I welcome today’s announcement that Mr Trevor Reaney will be appointed to discuss the matter further with interested parties. He will come up with recommendations on how MLAs should be paid, given that this could go on for a considerable time. We try to restore faith in politics in Northern Ireland, as we do in the rest of the United Kingdom, and it is very difficult to see how that process is enhanced or advanced in the event that we are paying individuals largely for sitting at home. I accept that many of them will be working hard to try to represent and help their constituents as well as they possibly can; nevertheless, their primary role is to attend Stormont and represent those views there, and that is just not happening.

[Nigel Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman talks, from his esteemed position as Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, about the primary role of MLAs being to attend the Assembly, but that goes for Members of Parliament too. Their primary role is to attend Parliament, so I take it that he will apply the logic of his argument to public representatives who do not attend this place. They are elected to attend this place and they do not do their job. We have had this scandalous situation for many, many years. I presume people would not stand for many, many years of Assembly Members being in that position, so I look forward to hearing his view on that.

[Dr Murrison]

I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] It is sort of a cop out, if he would like to see it that way, in that it is primarily a matter for the House and it is for the House to determine. I made my views on Sinn Féin not taking its seats in this place very, very clear. There should be no confusion about that. In my opinion, they are letting down those who elect them to do a job of work. They are clearly not doing it and people should draw their own conclusions. At the end of the day, however, it is a matter for the House. I hope he will be satisfied with that—I suspect he will not.

[Lady Hermon]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, particularly as he is drawing his remarks to a conclusion. May I just say to him ever so gently that a large number of people in Northern Ireland would not be crying into their hankies if direct rule were introduced in Northern Ireland tomorrow? I would like him to explain to the people of Northern Ireland, who are extremely angry and very aggrieved that the MLAs received their full salary and their full staffing allowance, what he seems to be advocating: that the Assembly should have some sort of advisory role in Northern Ireland and some sort of direct rule Ministers here. Is he advocating that MLAs will be paid for that advisory role? The people of Northern Ireland will not be amused by that.

[Dr Murrison]

I look forward to Mr Trevor Reaney’s conclusions and it would be wrong to pre-empt them, but we will certainly need to have some way to consult the people of Northern Ireland if we take further direct rule powers. It seems to me that that is right and proper. It is very difficult to see, as a democrat, how one would object to such a thing. It has been tried in the past and it has had some effect. That is the sort of thing I am looking for and the MLAs are elected people. What are the alternatives? One can consult civic society—of course one can and one should—but at the end of the day MLAs are elected and I hope they might be involved in some way, shape or form prior to the restoration of the institutions. Nothing must be done to replace the imperative to get the Executive back up and running. I fear that all the stop-gap solutions may have the unintended consequence of delaying the day the institutions are restored at Stormont, and that would be a great pity. We must always beware of such unintended consequences.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his announcement about the Comptroller and the National Audit Office for Northern Ireland. He is absolutely right, as we try to pick our way through this, that we should have measures to allow this House to scrutinise what is going on, particularly the methodology of the apportionment of funds to Departments in Northern Ireland. I look forward to seeing the documents in the Libraries of both Houses and to the restoration of the Executive in Stormont. May that happen sooner rather than later.

Northern Ireland Update

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments in support of the proposals to bring forward a budget Bill and about the necessity of having the financial stability that will help the Northern Ireland civil service to continue with the work that it has already been doing in ensuring that public services are delivered and that there is that focus on the people of Northern Ireland. I acknowledge the rightful support that he has given to all those in the Northern Ireland civil service engaged and involved in this important work.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the profound disappointment at not finding a resolution to date. Northern Ireland needs devolved government. I profoundly believe in devolution and the sense of locally elected politicians making decisions locally and being held accountable by an elected Assembly locally. That is profoundly in the best interests of Northern Ireland. He talks about other options. My focus remains very firmly on how we see devolution restored; I think that anything else is a backward step. There are, yes, concerns about the delivery of public services while we are taking the step that we have outlined today. Ultimately, this simply cannot carry on for ever. We need to ensure that political decision making is taking place.

The hon. Gentleman highlights issues around the process and the steps to follow on from it. I stress that bringing forward the budget Bill should not mark an end to the talks. Indeed, the parties themselves have indicated that they remain committed to finding a way forward in seeing how discussions between the DUP and Sinn Féin can continue in order to find resolution on, yes, a small number of issues where difference firmly remains between the two parties. While there has been positive progress on a number of fronts during certain weeks, we are not, as I have indicated to the House, at the point of reaching agreement.

The hon. Gentleman highlights the potential role of the Prime Minister. She has been actively involved in talking to the parties. She has had meetings with the parties at No. 10, bringing them together. She does remain actively involved, including through continued discussions with the Taoiseach, in finding the right way that we can work together as two Governments to ensure that there is a co-ordinated approach that is respectful to how these issues in respect of Northern Ireland are undertaken.

The hon. Gentleman makes points about interventions and suchlike. Clearly, we do keep these issues under careful review, and I do not rule anything out in respect of the way forward. We want the engagement between the two parties that has been undertaken in earnest, in a concerted way, to continue. They have shown that they can make progress in that format, and we want to support them in continuing with that. I earnestly want to see the restoration of the devolved settlement—of the institutions that are at the heart of the Belfast or Good Friday agreement and underpin the framework that we have in Northern Ireland. I want that to be restored at the earliest opportunity, and we are doing all that we can as a Government to see that it is brought about.

The hon. Gentleman makes certain points in relation to the economy and various other things. Universal credit is about making work pay. It is about how we get people back into work, seeing those pathways, and seeing that things are supported. We are looking very carefully at how it is implemented in Northern Ireland. In response to his comments about the position of Northern Ireland, I would point to the picture of prosperity, of jobs, and of an economy that is growing—and to tourism, with more people coming to Northern Ireland. That is a positive picture of what Northern Ireland is and what it can be. I encourage him to underline that in the messages that he gives.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

With a due sense of disappointment and weariness that I know my right hon. Friend shares, I welcome today’s statement. I commend him for his patience and fortitude during this process.

Last week, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which I chair, visited Newry and spoke to businessmen. Nowhere in the United Kingdom are the effects of Brexit going to be felt more acutely than in Northern Ireland, yet that region stands to suffer in the negotiations because its voice will not be heard clearly enough alongside the voices of other home nations. Given that the Executive are likely to be in abeyance for the balance—or a large part—of the negotiating period, what measures will be put in place to ensure that Northern Ireland’s voice is heard?

[James Brokenshire]

I commend my hon. Friend for the work of his Committee, which has had a clear focus on and interest in the issues around Brexit and Northern Ireland. I am sure that it will continue to do so. The evidence that it has been producing has been very helpful and informative. This Government want to see the most positive outcome for the United Kingdom as a whole, very firmly including Northern Ireland. That is why we published the paper during the course of the summer highlighting how we can deal with this effectively to see the positive outcome that I know can be achieved for Northern Ireland as the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. We will certainly continue, as we have done throughout the first phase of the negotiations, to underline the specific factors and elements in Northern Ireland to ensure that they are addressed effectively and that the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland are recognised. We will continue to work with the Northern Ireland civil service, and the parties in Northern Ireland too, to ensure that those unique factors are addressed. I am determined that that is what the outcome will be.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

The hon. Lady is right; the Prime Minister has been engaged, and she spoke to the party leaders of the DUP and Sinn Féin last night and underlined the need to be constructive in discussions and to find that resolution. She will remain closely engaged and will play whatever role is needed to support and find that positive outcome.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

While it lacks its 10 political members, the Northern Ireland Policing Board remains severely constrained. Although I hope that my right hon. Friend’s efforts bear fruit, in the event that the Executive are not restored, what contingency plans does he have to enable the Policing Board to function effectively?

[James Brokenshire]

I welcome my hon. Friend to his place and to his position as Chair of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. I wish him and members of that Committee positive and fruitful endeavours in their work and I look forward to giving evidence to his Committee soon. He makes an important point about the important role of the Policing Board. I am not going to speculate about other options. He highlights the significance—the importance—of the issues that are at stake, and why it is so very important to see an Executive restored.

Criminal Law (Northern Ireland)

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chloe Smith]

There are indeed ways to challenge these certificates; legal challenges have been made. I will not go into them in great deal here because they are on record and available for Members to look at. However, I will draw out one interesting point from one of the pieces of case law: it is noted that not to have a jury trial is not the same as not to have fair trial. That is a crucial piece of reassurance for Members here today who may be thinking deeply about the measure for which I am asking their support.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Will the Minister comment on the concern of the Bar of Northern Ireland that the criteria under which a challenge can be brought under section 7 of the 2007 Act is really very narrow and confined to exceptional circumstances? That concern comes out clearly in the consultation and is expected to be addressed in some way.

[Chloe Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for his contribution. He speaks with great experience, as he has spoken on these issues from this very Dispatch Box. He is right that the consultation responses, while being broadly in favour of continuing the system—indeed many of them noted that they had faith in the Secretary of State’s decision—contained some points of detail that could be considered in the future. However, I must point out that the provisions expire this month. I am asking the House to extend them now for immediate purposes, which is somewhat separate to the broader question of reform that we might look at in due course. I have mentioned an independent review, which will be a very good opportunity to draw out all these issues. I will also take the opportunity to put it on the record that the very complexity of these issues reminds us why we want to see an Executive in place in Northern Ireland—so that a Ministry of Justice there can properly play its part in these issues as well.

In conclusion, we would love to be able to do away with these measures as early as we possibly can, but that can only ever be done when circumstances allow. We want a system that remains fair, effective, necessary, appropriate and proportionate. We look forward to discussing it further under the annual independent review, but, for now, I commend this order to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

What a delight it is to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also congratulate the Minister; it is good to see her in the Chamber.

I was very interested in the comments of the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock). We clearly need to be concerned about whether this arrangement risks verdicts being less safe than would be the case under the system that we enjoy throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. The hon. Lady has presumably seen table 5 in the consultation response. That interesting table shows quite clearly that the chances of acquittal are higher under a non-jury system. What I am slightly worried about, and this touches on the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee—

[Mr Robertson]

Ex-Chair.

[Dr Murrison]

Well, let us say Chair of the Select Committee for the time being.

I am slightly worried about these informatics and what the numbers actually represent. Who were the people given over to a non-jury trial, and who were those tried by jury? It is difficult to make head or tail of the figures without that granularity. But, taken at face value, the process looks safe. Indeed, several consultees suggested that that is the case, so we should derive some comfort from that.

I support the proposition outlined by the Minister. It is important to understand that this is part of a process; it is not Diplock courts. When the original legislation was passed in 2007, it was felt that things were sufficiently normal in Northern Ireland to move to this next level. The question will be when the situation is sufficiently normal in Northern Ireland to enable us to default to the position under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which, under very exceptional circumstances and using a very high hurdle indeed, allows for non-jury trials. It is pretty clear that we are not there yet.

The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), who speaks from the Opposition Front Bench, said that the independent reviewer appears to be content with the current situation and believes that the situation has not changed sufficiently for us to fail to pass this extension of two years at this point. It is a credit to the system that we keep it under such regular review and that we are extremely cautious about the difference in Northern Ireland compared with the rest of the United Kingdom that sets to one side our precious jury system, which is so fundamental to the way in which criminal justice runs in the United Kingdom.

David Seymour is absolutely right. Not enough has changed for us to consider not putting in place the extension at this point. We have heard about the five deaths last year, the 29 bombings and the 61 shootings. Most of us who live in the rest of the United Kingdom find that extraordinary. It is remarkable that all that is carried out in Northern Ireland, which is a small part of the country, and it clearly suggests that the situation in Northern Ireland is not yet sufficiently normal for us to consider setting aside the provisions of section 7 of the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 and relying instead on the 2003 Act.

One or two respondents to the consultation asked a number of questions, one of which I touched on in my intervention. On the assumption that we will default to the 2003 Act as opposed to section 7 of the 2007 Act at some point in the future—sooner rather than later, I hope—one respondent asks what we need to put in place. In other words, what do we need to do to prepare for that point and protect those who are engaged, one way or another, in the justice system, so that people are not intimidated?

The PSNI has made it clear, as we might expect, that it sees real problems in putting alternatives in place—that is, protecting people in the community from the sort of intimidation that the 2007 Act is meant to militate against. Having been a Minister in the Department, I can fully understand why the PSNI might shrink from the proposition that it could be an alternative to the provisions of the 2007 Act, as it would find that extremely onerous. However, we need to start thinking about how to put in place measures that will come into force after we decide that we no longer need section 7 of the 2007 Act, as most of us hope that that will be sooner rather than later. That may well mean some sort of protection for those involved in the system.

The only other issue is the granularity I would rather like to see in table 5 so that we can know exactly—this touches on one or two comments that have been made this afternoon—who these people are who are being tried by this alternative means, because it is only with that information that we can really make sense of informatics such as that table.

As I said in my intervention on the Minister, the grounds for a legal challenge under section 7 of the 2007 Act are really quite stringent, and it has been pointed out by the chief executive of the Bar of Northern Ireland that we might like to review that. I very much welcome the review that the Minister spoke about, and I hope very much that this issue will be included in it. In our enthusiasm to ensure that we are as normal in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom, and that we do as little as is necessary to except Northern Ireland from the normal criminal justice system we have in this country, we do need to look at detail such as this to ensure that, when we can improve matters in the way the Bar in Northern Ireland appears to suggest, we do that, if at all possible. However, with that in mind, I certainly support the order.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

The agreement relates to what happens here at Westminster. I am not part of those discussions or the envisaged committee, but there are important reasons for the role I play in Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady makes various assertions and characterisations. It is worth underlining that I have been working closely with the Irish Government in recent days as part of the restoration of the Executive, and they noted in their response that they welcomed the British Government’s commitment to

“govern in the interests of all parts of the community in Northern Ireland.”

That principle will guide our actions.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Notwithstanding the commitment to parity in the Good Friday agreement, does my right hon. Friend agree that the military covenant needs to be applied throughout the country, regardless of where servicemen and women live?

[James Brokenshire]

I do uphold the military covenant. The Conservative party has made great strides in rolling it out across the UK, and the Government remain committed to that. We will work with the Executive and all the parties so that the benefit of the military covenant is felt in all parts of the UK.

Armed Forces: Historical Cases

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

It is important that we all recognise and respect that we do have freedom of the press in Northern Ireland. The facts, some of which I have outlined, speak for themselves. Many in Northern Ireland wonder why the justice system is so focused on what the state did, and devotes so little of its energy and time at what the terrorists did.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I am following the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks closely, as ever. Does he agree that the end result of all this is that Sinn Féin is winning the war, by which I mean that it is managing to shift public opinion so that, somehow, the troubles become an issue to do with the actions of the British state and not to do with the murderous barbarism of terrorism during that period? Would he also say that it is having some measure of success in that endeavour?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Although the IRA did not win the war in Northern Ireland, Sinn Féin is trying to win the propaganda war and rewrite the history of the troubles. Let me absolutely clear that, for our part, it will not be allowed to rewrite the history of the troubles in Northern Ireland.

As I have said, it is evident that the current resources devoted to legacy investigations are heavily skewed towards investigating what the police and the Army did, and that not enough is being done to address what the terrorists did, despite the fact that they were responsible for more than 90% of the deaths in Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK. It is wrong that the full powers and finances of the state are devoted to prosecuting the men and women who stood on the frontline in the most difficult of circumstances to defend the entire community and uphold the rule of law.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)]

I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this important debate. Let me be clear from the outset. Operation Banner, as the House is aware, lasted for nearly 30 years. It was the longest single continuous deployment of the armed forces in British military history. During that period, over 250,000 people served. The armed forces and the RUC combined lost over 1,000 men and women to terrorism. There were over 7,000 awards for bravery, and the Royal Ulster Constabulary was rightly awarded the George Cross. As this Government’s Northern Ireland manifesto at the last election made clear,

“we salute the remarkable dedication and courage of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and our Armed Forces in defending the rule of law and in ensuring that the future of Northern Ireland would only ever be determined by democracy and consent.”

Quite simply, without their contribution, what we know today as the Northern Ireland peace process would never have happened. All of us across this House and throughout our United Kingdom owe them a huge debt of gratitude, just as we owe them an enormous debt for the work they have done and sacrifice they have made in other parts of the world referred to in the motion: in Kosovo, in Iraq, and in Afghanistan.

Wherever they operate, we quite rightly regard our armed forces as the best in the world. The Government ask them to put their lives on the line in order to defend us and our way of life. In return, they rightly expect the fullest support from the Government, and this Government, through my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary and his colleagues, are determined to provide it.

[Dr Murrison]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that that support should extend to the provision of the costs of engaging a solicitor to advise those who have been sent letters by the Ministry of Defence inviting them to unburden themselves about the events of 30 or 40 years ago in order to assist the police with their inquiries? I am sure that he would not want those individuals inadvertently to incriminate themselves or those they were operating with all those years ago. If he is correctly suggesting that we should be properly supporting our veterans who served in Op Banner, then that must surely extend to finding the cost of engaging solicitors to advise those individuals properly and appropriately.

[James Brokenshire]

The Government have always acknowledged their ongoing duty of care to our former soldiers. Our policy is that where veterans face allegations concerning actions they took in the course of their duties, taxpayer-funded legal support, including counsel where appropriate, will be provided for as long as it is needed. In addition, I am advised that the Ministry of Defence can assist veterans with welfare support, either directly or in partnership with other agencies such as Combat Stress, depending on the veteran’s individual needs and circumstances.

[Dr Murrison]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[James Brokenshire]

I will.

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful, because this is very important. My right hon. Friend says, in effect, “if allegations have been made”. These letters, as I understand it, contain no allegations but will be disturbing nevertheless to the predominantly elderly gentlemen who receive them, who will need proper advice on whether to unburden themselves in the way that is suggested or whether to ignore the letters. I think that that advice can come only from a solicitor. My question is whether the MOD will provide the costs of the provision of that legal advice.

[James Brokenshire]

I will certainly take my hon. Friend’s point away and discuss it with colleagues from the Ministry of Defence to seek clarity for him and for those who may be in receipt of those letters.

I must also be clear to the House that we will never accept any kind of moral equivalence between those who sought to uphold the rule of law and terrorists who sought to destroy it. For us, politically motivated violence in Northern Ireland was never justified, whether it was carried out by republicans or loyalists. We will not accept any attempts to place the state at the heart of every atrocity or somehow to displace the responsibility for actions from where it may lie. I want to underline that we will not accept attempts to denigrate the contribution of the security forces and to give any kind of legitimacy to violence.

Stormont House Agreement: Implementation

Andrew Murrison Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Yes, I do understand entirely the strength of feelings. I have many comrades with whom I served in the Ulster Defence Regiment in Northern Ireland, and they are daily subjected to headlines in our local newspapers such as “Off the hook” over pictures of convicted terrorists. The hon. Gentleman can imagine how my comrades feel too, having put their lives on the line to bring some of those people to justice. Similarly, members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, who went out to investigate the crimes, now find that the people they put behind bars can walk free, some of them as the result of the use of the royal prerogative of mercy.

As the result of a report prepared by Lady Justice Hallett into the on-the-runs issue, the Secretary of State of the day, the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), told the House of Commons in a statement in 2014:

“The Government…will take whatever steps are necessary, acting on the basis of legal advice and in conjunction with the police and prosecutors, to do everything possible to remove barriers to future prosecutions.”—[Official Report, 17 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1041.]

She was referring to the future prosecution of terrorists. Since that statement was made, I am not aware of a single terrorist suspect being brought before the courts in Northern Ireland in relation to those matters. The Secretary of State also identified 36 priority cases highlighted in the Hallett report. Those were to be the subject of a review by the legacy investigation branch of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Will the Minister tell us in his response what has happened to those 36 priority cases that were to be reviewed? Are the suspects still wanted for questioning, or have they been told, “No, you’re okay, we don’t need to talk to you”?

I want to highlight a case that I find particularly appalling. Kieran Conway is a self-proclaimed member of the Provisional IRA from Dublin. He claims that he was a senior intelligence officer at the time of the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings, in which 21 innocent people lost their lives. Conway asserts that he is aware of the identity of some of the IRA members involved in that mass murder, but he has refused to disclose that information. In addition, Conway admitted that he had been involved in a number of shooting incidents, perhaps as many as 100. He claims that a number of British soldiers were killed in some of those shooting incidents that he witnessed.

Kieran Conway is so confident that the UK authorities will not pursue him that he has written and published a book setting all that out and putting it in the public domain. Not only that, but he has appeared on the BBC “HARDtalk” programme, openly boasting of his involvement in those crimes. Has Kieran Conway been arrested and questioned about the claims he makes in his book and has broadcast on other media? No, he has not—far from it. Today, Kieran Conway is a solicitor in Dublin, who acts on behalf of so-called dissident republican suspects in the Special Criminal Court. Imagine the conversations that Mr Conway has with his clients—“Don’t worry, boys. One of these days the Brits will cut a deal with you too. Just keep on doing what you’re doing, just like I did, and I’m walking the streets and advising clients how to evade justice.”

Soldiers and veterans look at all of that and they think, “What is going on?” We know is going on: veterans of our armed forces are getting the knock on the door early in the morning. They find a large number of police officers outside their homes; their homes are invaded and searched. The veterans, sometimes just out of bed, are marched off to a police station, subjected to cross-examination and interrogation about crimes that occurred sometimes 20 or 30 years ago. Those are the men and women who served our country, who put themselves on the frontline and who were prepared to go out and face the terrorists; today, they are waiting again for the knock at the door.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I hesitate to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, because he is making a powerful speech, and I congratulate him on it. Given the number of years that he has cited—20, 30 or 40 years—does he agree that if we accept this principle about harrying and pursuing members of the armed forces, then there is no reason to stop there? Some of my constituents who served in Cyprus and Korea, or even further back, are saying, “In the fullness of time, perhaps we will be questioned about what we got up to, under the rules and norms of today rather than those that applied at the time.”

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

As a former Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, the hon. Gentleman worked with me and others on such legacy issues, so he is well aware of the background to the situation. He is absolutely right. Earlier in the main Chamber, some of our colleagues made the point about what impact this might have on our ability to recruit men and women into our armed forces today. Would not a young 18-year-old looking at a career in our armed forces think twice about serving a country that might let them end up in the dock, simply for doing the job and protecting the community? That is a huge question that we need to ask of the Government. What is going on?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

First, I hold soldiers to a far higher standard of service than I do terrorists—that needs to be understood. However, I have to say that what is happening at the moment is the worst possible recruiting sergeant imaginable. Having 70-year-old veterans being hauled out of their beds at 3 o’clock in the morning to answer for things that may or may not have happened 40 years ago is remarkable. I can scarcely remember what I was doing last year; I certainly cannot remember what happened 40 years ago.

I am really worried about the quality of available evidence for investigations of this sort. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has talked, and is worried, about a “twisted narrative”. He needs to say in clear terms what he will do to unpick that narrative, because the message at the moment is that the awful things that happened during the troubles were predominantly caused by members of the armed forces, which is truly remarkable, given the statistics shared by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson). That must be dealt with now. It needs to be nipped in the bud, otherwise our colleagues at the Ministry of Defence will find it ever more difficult to recruit the young men and women needed to serve the forces of the Crown.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kris Hopkins]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I will just say that I sat and listened to the former Prime Minister’s contribution on the Bloody Sunday investigation. I have to say that I refused to accept a narrative that I had heard for many decades about what had happened, and there was clear wrongdoing, so there are moments when we have failed and we should hold our hands up and not just capitulate to a romantic message that we are always right in the military.

I want now to focus on what we are proposing, because the key message that I got from today’s debate was the passion with which the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley wanted to get that proportionality and balance back into what is happening at the moment. The Stormont House agreement addressed many things relating to legacy and the shape of the Assembly, but for us in this debate it was about the formation of the historical investigations unit and addressing some of the issues that people have talked about: the care of our veterans; reform of the Northern Ireland inquest function; ensuring that victims and survivors have access to high-quality services; implementing the comprehensive mental trauma service; seeking an acceptable way in which victims can gain a pension; and giving victims and survivors access to advocate-counsellor assistance. It is vital that progress is made on all of that to address the legacy of the troubled past, and we need political stability to be able to drive that forward. The Government want to put £150 million on the table. We want to create a period of five years in which we will work our way through and address the 90% of murders that were carried out by terrorists, and balance and proportionality will be brought back into the system.

There are huge numbers of former soldiers who were murdered and whose cases are not being investigated at this time. Nearly 200 soldiers were murdered, and those cases are not being investigated at the moment because there is no mechanism in place. When people talk about injustices against soldiers at this time, that is because of the present system. I would like to talk about what is proposed. When I was here just a few weeks ago, there was more resistance to what was suggested in relation to the historical investigations unit. I think that there is now an idea, an understanding, of what we want to actually do in putting that proportionality in place and ensuring that those 3,500 people who were murdered and the families of those people get some justice.

One conversation that has come about has been about an amnesty—an end to this whereby we just draw a line. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley read out a long list of people and of events that had occurred—terrible events in which people were traumatised and damaged and will be for a long time. They want justice. There is not a line to be drawn. Whether an act was perpetrated by a terrorist or whether a soldier was involved, people want their moment in court, when they can get an understanding of what happened.

[Dr Murrison]

Will the Minister not accept, though, that because terrorists do not keep records and are not going to respond to letters from the Ministry of Defence inviting them to unburden themselves, there will be a mismatch in the information available to the courts? That means that successful prosecutions may be brought against servicemen—a small number, I suspect—but there is no chance, realistically, of a commensurate number of prosecutions being brought against terrorists.

[Kris Hopkins]

What is important is that we create the space, give the resource and set a framework in which those investigations can be explored. We are suggesting a five-year period in which chronologically we work through the evidence that is available, the evidence that we can now discover through new means and techniques that are available, so that there is an understanding of what happened at that moment and we can best explore that. It is right that we put that proportionality back in and ensure that that is addressed.

I want to give the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley the opportunity to respond, so I will briefly touch on some of the issues and questions raised. First, the PSNI is still considering the 36 priority cases and actively reviewing the incidents involved. So there is not an end to that; it will pursue that. I have mentioned to the hon. Lady from the SNP, the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock), that the Government have made clear their commitment to provide £150 million over five years to help support the establishment of the new institutions that are addressing the past.

We need to create a political space in which we can deliver this. The Secretary of State wants to consult the public on how we do this, but people will again raise the issues that have been put on the table today. However, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley said, it is important that justice is provided and that proportionality is brought back into this system. I hope that when these proposals come forward they are robustly challenged, people make contributions to them and we understand that this is about bringing justice to the people of Northern Ireland.