Post Office Card Account
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The Post Office card account was always intended as a stepping stone to a transactional bank account, which is a gateway to other financial services. The basic bank account agreement with the nine banks is to be welcomed, but there is still incredible suspicion in the marketplace about transactional bank accounts. What more will the Minister do to persuade POCA holders that it is in their interests, as well as in the interests of everyone else, to move to a transactional bank account?
Steve Webb
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We are testing and trialling approaches to try to work out which sorts of accounts are most suitable for which people. It is important to understand the revolution that universal credit will bring in, because people will get the whole of their benefits—tax credits, and potentially help with housing—and they will have to budget from that one relatively large sum. An awful lot of work is going on to trial which sorts of accounts work best for which sorts of people, but over the coming years we will clearly contact people of working age to indicate to them the merits of a transactional bank account.
Universal Credit
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
I think my hon. Friend has a point. The Opposition think that the programme is rolling out too slowly, so they want to roll it out even slower or stop it and not roll it out at all. They are caught in a classic Opposition trap—we have all been there; I spent some time in opposition—which is that they know that what the Government are doing is right, but they do not want to say so because that would make it look like they had nothing to say. Therefore, they are talking about little bits and pieces and nit picking, instead of saying that it is a good programme. When I was in opposition, if something was really good I used to say, “Let’s get behind it and support it, and we can deal with the detail later.”
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the Secretary of State’s failure on universal credit the reason that fraud and error are likely to increase by £700 million in his Department?
Mr Duncan Smith
Actually, we are working very hard to bring down fraud and error. Of course, universal credit will bring down fraud and error. That is one of the driving reasons that it is important to implement universal credit, which is why we are delivering it safely and securely. We all want fraud and error to come down. Of course, we always hear about the mix-up between error and fraud. There is a tendency to think that everyone is defrauding the system, but that is not the case; sometimes, official errors get into the system. Universal credit gets rid of that by simplifying the process, which should make it better. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have more to do on fraud and error. We need to keep bearing down on it, which is what any Government would want to do, and universal credit will help enormously.
Pension Schemes Bill
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years ago)
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Steve Webb
It is good to see a packed House for this vital pensions Bill. The amendments are in two groups that correspond broadly with the Bill’s two main themes—the new definitions of pension schemes and pension scheme benefits, and budget pensions flexibilities.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
May I invite the Minister to apologise to the Chamber? I estimate that on Report there are 33 new clauses, 62 amendments, and one new schedule. Does he think that is rather a lot for us to cope with?
Mr Love
The Minister rightly talks about the safeguards introduced for people who want to transfer from DB to DC schemes, yet he does not think there is a need for a safeguard for people who do not access the guidance guarantee. Should not there be some safeguard for them, because they could lose substantially as people transferring schemes?
Steve Webb
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Our first strategy is to ensure that the guidance guarantee is accessed by as many people as possible. We are placing a legal duty on schemes and providers to flag up the guidance guarantee to people, both in wake-up packs and when people approach schemes to access their money.
The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of people who do not access the guidance—and indeed those who do, come to think of it, although particularly those who do not. The FCA will have more to say on the requirements on schemes and providers when people approach them having not accessed the guidance. There is already a general duty on providers to “treat customers fairly”, but the FCA will have more to say on whether that safeguard goes far enough, or whether further safeguards are necessary. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point.
As well as the changes in relation to transfers from unfunded public sector schemes and transfers of defined benefit rights, which I will deal with in a moment, new clause 24 and its accompanying schedule amend the existing transfer rights in the Pensions Schemes Act 1993 to ensure that the new flexibilities operate as intended. We will do that by extending the current transfer rights for those with “flexible benefits” up to and beyond their schemes’ normal retirement age, and applying statutory transfer rights at benefit categories, rather than at scheme level. Amending the transfer rules will ensure that individuals with uncrystallised flexible benefits will have the option to transfer their rights to another pension scheme.
Those amendments will also give individuals greater flexibility by giving members a statutory right to transfer at benefit category level, rather than at scheme level. Where an individual has more than one category of benefits under a scheme, they will now have an option to transfer out of a particular category of benefit, or their entire pot if they wish to, provided they have ceased to accrue rights in that particular category of benefit. Amendments 28, 49 and 50 make minor consequential change in respect of new clause 24 and new schedule 1.
New clauses 25 to 30 and Government amendment 29 address the implications of the new flexibilities for public service pension schemes. Regarding new clause 25 and, for Northern Ireland, new clause 28, following further policy development, that clarifies that the ban on transfers is limited to transfers from unfunded defined benefit public service pension schemes to schemes from which flexible benefits can be obtained. Further, the amendment ensures that the changes are delivered in the Pension Schemes Act 1993, rather than in regulations made by HM Treasury.
Additionally, new clause 26—new clause 29 for Northern Ireland—implements a safeguard for transfers out of funded public service pension schemes that is similar to that available in the private sector for reducing transfer values in specific circumstances.
New clause 25 restricts the right under the Pension Schemes Act 1993 to transfer from one pension scheme to another, so as to prevent a member of an unfunded public service defined benefit scheme from using that right to transfer to another pension scheme in which they can obtain flexible benefits. New clause 28 does the same for Northern Ireland. The new clauses also allow the Treasury—and in Northern Ireland, the Department of Finance and Personnel—to make regulations providing for exceptions to the transfer ban.
New clause 26 introduces a new safeguard that gives Ministers a power to designate a funded defined benefit public service pension scheme and in that way require the reduction of cash equivalent transfer values in respect of transfers from that scheme to pension schemes from which flexible benefits can be obtained. New clause 29 does the same for Northern Ireland. The use of the power will be restricted to cases in which the relevant Minister considers that transfers, either singly or in combination with other factors, increase the risk or amount of taxpayer intervention in the scheme.
The new clauses provide a power which, when used, will require the reduction of transfer values in respect of transfers requested after a scheme is designated, and completed before the scheme is no longer designated. The new clauses time-limit the use of the power and place an obligation on the scheme trustees or managers to alert the relevant Minister should they believe either that the power needs to be used or that, having been used, it is no longer needed.
We intend that the level of the reduction to be applied should be set out in regulations made by the Treasury, and new clause 26 also provides regulation-making powers for the Treasury to determine the amount of the reduction that should be made when a pension scheme is designated. Additionally, in the case of certain Scottish schemes, the power to designate a scheme is to be conferred on Scottish Ministers. New clause 29 makes parallel provision for Northern Ireland. In respect of parliamentary and ministerial schemes in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the new clauses give that power to the relevant trustees or scheme managers. Finally—that is an interim “finally”, not a final “finally”, by the way—new clauses 27 and 30 make amendments to pensions legislation that are consequential to new clauses 25, 26, 28 and 29.
I should like to explain the thinking behind these measures, Currently, only a small number of transfers take place out of the public service pension schemes to defined contribution schemes, but the introduction of the flexibilities might make transfers out to defined contribution schemes more attractive for some. In unfunded public service pension schemes, there is no fund of assets with which to finance transfer payments. Instead, they are funded from contributions and through general Government expenditure. So for every extra pound paid out in transfers, the Government will have a pound less to spend that year on public services. We have estimated that if 1% of all public service workers reaching retirement took their benefits flexibly, it would cost the taxpayer £200 million a year, and we do not think it fair to ask the taxpayer to meet those up-front costs.
Unlike with unfunded schemes, there is a pool of assets to support the payment of pensions in funded public service pension schemes, which can be used to meet the immediate cost of transfers out. Our expectation therefore is that, in the vast majority of cases, allowing greater flexibility in the funded public service pension schemes will not impact on public finances. However, it would be inappropriate for the Government to provide these freedoms to members of public service pension schemes and provide no back-stop protection to taxpayers, should transfers—either singly or in combination with other factors—contribute to a scheme needing support from local or national taxpayers to meet the cost of its liabilities. This is aligned with the position the Government have taken on the unfunded pension schemes, in which we have taken the decision to ban such transfers in the light of the cost risk to the Exchequer, and ultimately the taxpayer. Should a situation arise in which there is a risk to the taxpayer, this new safeguard will give Ministers and scheme managers the appropriate tools to address it.
The Government intend to legislate for some limited exceptions to this ban, and these provisions give the Treasury powers to make regulations providing exceptions to the transfer ban. It is intended that the Treasury will prescribe certain limited circumstances in which a transfer will be permitted. We will announce further details in due course, but we are considering options such as some specific circumstances under Fair Deal. Amendment 29 removes clause 36 and, as discussed earlier, new clause 25 is the replacement provision.
Moving on to the treatment of draw-down and to the Pension Protection Fund assessment, which are covered by new clauses 14 to 23, we are introducing changes to allow occupational pension schemes to offer the new forms of access to pension saving being created by the Taxation of Pensions Bill. In future, schemes will be able to offer more options for decumulation, including draw-down pensions and lump sums. Schemes will be able to offer options to allow all or part of money purchase funds, as defined under tax legislation, to be designated for draw-down after the minimum age—generally 55—is reached. They will also be able of offer members the option to take one or more lump sums from their money purchase funds after the minimum age has been reached.
We are making changes to pensions legislation to allow occupational pension schemes to offer flexibilities to members, and to ensure that the flexibilities operate as intended in relation to cash balance benefits when schemes wind up or enter the Pension Protection Fund assessment period. Cash balance benefits involve guarantees about the amount of a member’s accrued fund and cannot easily be designated for the payment of draw-down. For draw-down funds to operate as intended, cash balance benefits need to be turned into money purchase benefits before designated as “draw-down”. New clause 14 limits draw-down to money purchase benefits.
In addition, the Government will bring forward regulations to allow modification of scheme rules to convert cash balance benefits into money purchase benefits, where the member wants to exercise draw-down. Schemes will need to convert cash balance benefits into money purchase benefits, and new clauses 15 and 16 contain regulation- making powers for this conversion process. They are fall-back powers, as no scheme is currently offering the extended forms of access and we have no evidence of how such conversions might be undertaken. If there is evidence that schemes are not offering fair value for cash balance benefits in conversion or as a lump sum, we will bring forward regulations to impose requirements.
If an occupational pension scheme is underfunded at wind-up, assets relating to non-money purchase benefits shall be distributed according to a specified priority order. Members therefore see a reduction in their benefits in accordance with that priority order. New clause 17 contains provisions about the conversion of benefits during wind up. We want to prevent some members from avoiding any reduction to Pension Protection Fund levels of compensation. Therefore, we want to prevent members from converting non-money purchase benefits to money purchase after a scheme begins to wind up. If we did not do that, there would be a risk that benefits converted to money purchase would be discharged in full, to the potential detriment of other members.
If schemes offer the new decumulation options, we need to set out how rights under the scheme are treated if the scheme enters the PPF. Our provisions restrict what can be done with non-money purchase benefits when a scheme is in a PPF assessment period. New clause 17 prevents the conversion or replacement of non-money purchase benefits with money purchase benefits. New clause 18 restricts the payment of lump sums to those that would be payable if the scheme transferred into the PPF. Crucially, a scheme needs to be in as steady a state as possible while it is assessed for transfer into the PPF, so that its overall financial position can be determined. In addition, if members were able to transfer or discharge their benefits, this would delay the process and deplete the assets available to be transferred with which to pay compensation to other members. There are no restrictions on the payment, transfer or discharge of money purchase benefits. New clauses 19 and 23 replicate these provisions for Northern Ireland.
In new clauses 31 and 33, we introduce several definitional terms that will apply to a number of areas we are amending under part 4 of the Bill. New clause 31 introduces the definition of a “flexible benefit”, which will determine whether the requirements relating to independent advice, draw-down, treatment of lump sums and transfers will apply to that form of benefit or not. New clause 32 contains definitions of “cash balance benefits”. which are a form of benefit that will fall within the scope of flexible benefits. Those definitions seek to ensure that where a member’s pension saving results in a cash amount, as opposed to an income amount, they are able to access those benefits flexibly. The definition of “flexible benefit” is intended to include all those benefit categories that fall within the scope of the flexibilities introduced by the Taxation of Pensions Bill. The definition includes money purchase benefits, cash balance benefits and a residual category of benefits which are neither money purchase nor cash balance benefits for the purposes of pensions legislation, other than the provisions relating to pensions in the Finance Act 2004. This residual category may include a benefit structure which provides a sum of money at the member’s retirement date but is also subject to an additional guarantee, such as the option of a guaranteed annuity rate offered before the member becomes entitled to receive their pension. New clause 33 also defines a range of terms to ensure that the flexibilities apply to the right individuals, both members and those who may be entitled to survivor rights, as well as at the right points in time.
Government amendments 56 to 72 relate to the smooth running of the pensions guidance service and ensure that the legislative framework works as it should. They fall into three groups, the first of which comprises those aligning definitions with the ones used in the rest of the Bill. The second group comprises those ensuring that those delivering guidance work together effectively and share information. The third group comprises the consequential amendments. I outlined earlier the new definition of “flexible benefits”, which is used in this Bill to refer to money purchase or defined contribution schemes. Amendments 56 and 57 introduce the language of flexible benefits into the high-level definition of pensions guidance. Amendments 30, 58, 67, 68, 69 and 72 are necessary as a consequence of these definitional changes.
On information sharing, amendment 60 inserts new section 333EA in new part 20A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. Subsection (1) provides for a duty on designated guidance providers and the Treasury to co-operate in the giving of pensions guidance. Subsection (2) provides for a gateway to share information. Ensuring that delivery partners and the Treasury are under an obligation to work together and, importantly, that they may share information with each other, subject to the usual data protection requirements, is important. It ensures a well-integrated and well-functioning guidance service; allows delivery partners to learn from each other and for evaluation of the overall service; and, finally and most importantly, facilitates a smooth journey for consumers through the service. The remaining provisions in this group make minor or consequential changes, principally to ensure that the guidance framework slots into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. They include amendments 61 and 63.
Mr Love
I apologise to the Minister for asking this now. He was going at such a pace that I did not catch up with him until he had moved on to a separate set of amendments. I want to press him on the guidance amendments. Will guidance be rationed to a once-only offer, or will the Financial Conduct Authority introduce some flexibility in that regard?
Steve Webb
Obviously, that issue is not spelled out in the Bill, but it is important none the less. What we envisage is that people will contact the guidance service, which by then will have a brand, an identity, a phone number and all the rest of it, and will make an appointment if they want face-to-face or telephone-based guidance. Obviously, they can access the website as many times as they like, but if they wish to have face-to-face or telephone-based guidance, it will be at a set time on a set date. There will be a period between the initial contact and the guidance appointment for the gathering of information to make the session more useful. Coming out of that session will be documentation and signposting for further sources of information, guidance and, if they wish, regulated financial advice.
Clearly, we want everybody to be able to access the guidance, so the core model is that a person does that once. But the Pensions Advisory Service has a business as usual role anyway and it is inconceivable that, even if a person has had their formal guidance session with the service and then rang it up the next day with a question, it would put the phone down on them; of course it would not, so there would be flexibility. Clearly, we need to think further on that. We need to reflect on the fact that if someone has a guidance session and then has additional needs, is a formal second guidance session appropriate or necessary or are there other ways of dealing with those needs? The core model is one session, but other resources, such as signposting, are available on tap. We are considering whether further flexibility could be introduced.
I hope that I am near to conclusion. I ran through the relatively minor and consequential amendments that come towards the back of the Bill and that are relatively uncontentious. On the title of the Bill, amendment 1 amends the title of the Bill to include
“provision designed to give people greater flexibility in accessing benefits and to help them make informed decisions about what to do with benefits.”
That change is to reflect more accurately the content of the Bill in the light of the new amendments on the pension flexibilities.
In sum, these new provisions are designed to ensure that the guidance guarantee works as effectively as possible; that the various rules on transfers do not act to the detriment of people who are left behind in the schemes; and that the process is properly overseen with the provision of independent financial advice. They also spell out who pays for the help, and whether or not it is taxed. The provisions help to flesh out some of the detail of this important policy, and I commend new clause 7 to the House.
Stephen Timms
We welcomed the new flexibility that is being provided. I hope the guidance that we are legislating for will deliver the improvement that the hon. Gentleman describes, but we cannot yet be confident that that will be the case. This brief debate gives us an opportunity to press the Minister to give us rather more reassurance about that. I shall refer to some of the comments of JustRetirement, one of the companies that the hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) mentioned.
The most recent Association of British Insurers data show that overall annuity sales are down 14% from the second quarter of this year, and by 56% compared with the third quarter of last year. Consumers are presumably waiting until the reforms go live in April next year before deciding how to use their defined contribution pension savings. The same ABI data show external annuity sales—that is, annuities bought on the open market—down from 49% to 35% in the third quarter of this year. Internal annuity sales, where an annuity is bought from the incumbent pension provider, have increased from 51% to 65% in the same period. The overall share of enhanced annuity sales has fallen from 28% to 22%.
The ABI data highlight the risk of the kind of consumer detriment described in the article in The Daily Telegraph on Saturday. Together, they suggest that problems will continue unless the Financial Conduct Authority intervenes actively. Just Retirement makes the point particularly strongly and effectively that there is an urgent need for a second line of defence requirement for providers. What happens if the guidance on offer is not taken up? That is not provided for in the amendments.
Legal and General has highlighted the lesson from the pilot that it undertook with public support—that in practice the guidance on offer will very likely not be taken up. As the Minister knows, the take-up was very small—2.5%—in the pilot that it set up and supported. If that happens on a significant scale when these arrangements come into force next year, it opens up the possibility of very large-scale new consumer detriment. JustRetirement, along with others, is right to argue that by introducing a second line of defence requirement, the FCA can apply a crucial brake against this potential future consumer detriment by requiring providers to check consumers’ circumstances when they come to access their DC pension savings.
The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) asked whether the guidance would take account of other financial assets beyond DC pension savings. That is a good question.
Mr Love
The Minister alluded to discussions taking place between the Department and the FCA, but the formal FCA position given earlier in the consideration of the Bill was that consumer take-up would be a matter of public choice, leaving it to the person concerned. With all the emerging evidence, surely we cannot be confident that that will answer the question.
Stephen Timms
I fear my hon. Friend is right. If in practice only a tiny proportion of people, or even a modest proportion, take up the guidance being offered, there is every chance of very serious problems in this market in the future. The House cannot be satisfied with that likelihood.
A number of organisations have pressed vigorously for a second line of defence requirement and they make a telling case. Proceeding without that safeguard will leave many consumers exposed—we should bear in mind that this is all supposed to happen from next April—making people guinea pigs and opening up the real possibility of another mis-selling scandal in the coming months.
Crispin Blunt
That was the exact result of the paternalistic way in which we legislated to require annuities. Frankly, it led to market failure as a result of inertia in the market and people not exercising the choices available to them, because we seemed to be telling them precisely what they had to do. Now that we are liberalising the system and giving people the responsibility to manage the money they have saved, we obviously have to deal with the vexed issue of guidance to make sure that people make sensible decisions, by and large, but at least they should be informed decisions about the resources they have saved. These market reforms are founded on a belief in consumer empowerment, but without the effective implementation of the guidance guarantee, they may fail. That is why the guidance guarantee is so important.
We have already heard about the detail of and debated the need for a second line of defence, in that the Financial Conduct Authority must protect the estimated 8% to 96% of people—rather a wide estimate—who might not take up the guidance. That, however, is not the purpose of amendment 73.
The industry and consumers need the Treasury to take a lead and confirm the contents of the guidance. Why the Treasury continues to maintain its conspiracy of silence is a mystery to me. It is of some concern that four and a half months before the start date, the FCA, Citizens Advice, the Pensions Advisory Service and providers have no concrete clue about exactly what the guidance will entail, including whether it will consider sources of income that are alternatives to defined contribution pension schemes.
Dominic Lindley, an author and consultant at Which?, gave evidence in Committee suggesting that as little as 4% of a saver’s wealth is tied up in defined- contribution schemes. The over-55s have an average of £271,000 invested in property, and it is natural that such assets should increasingly form a component of retirement income. The average amount lent through an equity release scheme jumped 12% to £67,000 last year, while defined contribution pension pots remain stagnant at £20,000 on average.
The Conservative party and I presume our allies—including the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who supports my amendment 73—have always believed in the value of property ownership, and the Government must reflect that in their pensions policy. That is why we must recognise that equity release will be a critical part of future retirement provision. When we appreciate that £1.4 trillion-worth of property assets are held by older people, that puts into perspective the scale of the assets that have the potential to give older people a more comfortable retirement, if they can properly access them.
In Committee, the Minister said that he anticipated—he repeated this in an intervention—that the information that consumers would be encouraged to gather in a standardised format before they received the guidance would include state pension rights and assets such as housing equity. He also remarked that the more they put into the guidance session, the more they would get out of it.
The Equity Release Council is pleased by the recognition that assets other than defined contribution pension savings should be taken into consideration. However, that has not been explicitly stated in the Bill, and so far it relates only to the initial phone call to set up the guidance session. I support the Equity Release Council’s wish for the Government explicitly to recognise that housing wealth represents a significant source of potential retirement income, and for that to be considered during the delivery of pensions guidance.
I will therefore listen very carefully to the Minister before I invite the massed ranks of Opposition Members and, I hope, Government Members to support my amendment 73. I am reasonably hopeful that the Minister will give me a satisfactory response.
Mr Love
There is a clear—well, not so clear—dividing line between generic advice and product-specific advice. The hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting that where there are significant housing assets, part of the guidance guarantee should include advice on equity release. Is he straying across that line?
Crispin Blunt
I am trying to suggest what is in the amendment:
“Individuals delivering the pensions guidance must ask those receiving the guidance about other potential sources of retirement income in addition to defined contribution pension schemes; this must include an assessment of assets such as housing wealth, savings and investments.”
It is not meant to be prescriptive, but if someone has a tiny portfolio as their defined contribution scheme, relative to their whole portfolio, why are they not directed to their major asset, which is likely to be their house? What consideration might they give to using that asset to make their retirement more comfortable than it would otherwise be?
Pension reform seeks to give people sensible access to their assets, and for them to make sensible decisions. With equity release, for example, does it make sense to sell and downsize and give the estate agent a whack of money while being forced to move in order to release assets, or rather to stay in the house and release assets through an equity release scheme?
Steve Webb
I am very happy to relay to the Exchequer Secretary that my hon. Friend is seeking such a meeting.
We believe that reliable and high-quality guidance will be available. The right hon. Member for East Ham asked about those on lower incomes. The irony is that in the bad old world it was the people in the middle who were completely stuck. If someone had a tiny pension pot, they could take the cash, and if they had a big pension pot, they had choices and draw-down and probably paid for some advice. It was all those poor souls in the middle who just ended up having to buy an annuity faute de mieux. This new reform gives new options and new choices to those on lower and middle incomes who have not had them before, so it seems to us that we are being fairer to those in that group. They can buy an annuity if they want to, but we are giving them new options, so we do not think we have any problem with that test.
The right hon. Gentleman asked finally about the issue of costs to the Exchequer. He will be aware that these are being updated at the time of the autumn statement, so we will be providing fresh estimates of the tax implications of the changes and the public expenditure implications, but I would say that in its July long-term fiscal report the OBR did not assume any impact on public spending from these reforms. I do not think that by that it meant there would be nil, and I do not mean there would be nil, but think of the context of long-term pension spending, the very substantial reforms we have brought in to the state pension age, the new single tier pension and the multiple tens of billions of pounds-worth of reforms—we are not talking anything like that in respect of the implication for public spending of these new freedoms.
Will there be somebody who blows the lot and claims a means-tested benefit? Yes, there will—having said which, we already have rules in place for those who artificially dispose of their capital, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows. So there are safeguards. We may find that public expenditure is saved; we already know from survey evidence that pension saving is more popular as a result of our freedoms. If more people decide to save for their retirement through pension saving and have more income and wealth in retirement, we may save money. We do not expect a substantial impact on public spending, therefore, although I am not saying it will be zero. We will provide updated estimates at the time of the autumn statement.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about who will pay for the guidance and he seemed to think there was some confusion. I do not think there is any confusion. The £20 million that the Chancellor has identified is seed-corn funding to get the thing going, and it is already being spent as we speak—on designing the website and getting things started. Once it is up and running there will be a levy on the financial services industry. The FCA has already put out a consultation on exactly how that will fall.
Basically, the idea is that those firms that will benefit should pay the levy, but we are also consulting on exempting small firms of advisers with low turnover from paying the levy. So unless I have missed something, I do not think there is any uncertainty about who is going to be paying for this: it will not be the consumer directly; it will be a levy on the financial services industry.
The issue was raised—and this phrase has come up—of a second line of defence, and that is an important concept. As we discussed a moment ago, what happens when people have not accessed the guidance, or indeed if they have? The FCA has committed to consider this issue and it will be publishing an update on its requirement on pension providers very shortly. We have had some discussions as to whether that will be by Christmas, by winter or by late autumn, but it will be very shortly, so we will have more information on that. I assure the House that the FCA is taking this issue seriously.
Steve Webb
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Together with the Taxation of Pensions Bill, this Bill introduces the latest radical reform of pensions. Its ground-breaking pension reforms were the centrepiece of the Queen’s Speech, and are intended to give people freedom and security in retirement.
The Bill follows the Government’s extensive pensions reform. It is about enabling innovation in the pensions industry better to meet the needs of business and individuals, and about giving people greater flexibility in regard to how and when they access their savings. It will do that in two ways: by encouraging and enabling defined ambition or risk-sharing pension schemes and collective benefits, and by giving individuals new freedom and flexibility in relation to how and when they access their pension savings. It builds on the previous pension reform, including the new state pension and the highly successful implementation of automatic enrolment. Defined ambition legislation is a radical reshaping of pensions legislation to ensure that it remains relevant for future generations. It is intended to reflect, recognise and reinvigorate innovation in consumer-focused product design in shared-risk, or defined ambition, pensions.
The Bill introduces three categories of pension scheme based on the type of promise that the scheme provides for savers during the saving phase about the benefits that will be available to them on retirement. It will also enable schemes in the United Kingdom to offer collective benefits, and to ensure that there is appropriate regulation in regard to such benefits. The crucial point here concerns risk-sharing. The current legislation is based on a binary structure of just money purchase or non-money purchase benefits. While both those types of pension can be the right product for many, is it right that the only future for pensions that our legislation encourages is one that requires either the individual consumer or the employer to take on the full financial risk of such long-term savings? We think not.
Many employers have found the increasing costs of longevity and investment risk too heavy to bear, but if defined contribution schemes are the only alternative, outcomes for savers will be less certain and more volatile than for earlier generations, making it much harder for future generations of savers to plan for later life. That is why the Bill provides for new definitions of private pensions, which include the new defined ambition category and collective benefits.
Mr Love
It would appear that the defined ambition scheme has been created to attract employers who have defined contribution schemes. What evidence is there that there is a demand for defined ambition schemes? Is there not a danger that employers with defined benefit schemes will be encouraged to move to defined ambition schemes?
Steve Webb
Our view is that the shared risk space will suit firms coming from either direction: from DB or DC. I have lost track of the number of times someone has said, “Such and such a measure was the final nail in the coffin of DB.” There must be no more room for any more nails in that coffin. It is clear that, if we do nothing, there will be no DB outside the public sector—sooner or later there will be nothing. The abolition of contracting out may be a further trigger, but if we do nothing we will just have individual DC, so shared risk says that employers who want to do more—employers who are willing to share some of the risk with their employees—should have a space to do that.
We may catch some firms coming out of DB that were going to go out of DB anyway. We may stop them in the middle, rather than going to the opposite extreme, but we may also find employers who offered DC schemes and found that their employees could not afford to retire because the DC benefits were not good enough, or employees who object to the volatility of individual DC and start saying to their bosses, “I want something a bit more predictable and certain. Can you mitigate the risk?” Therefore, my judgment is that some people will come out of DB and some will come out of DC. That does not undermine DB. The writing was on the wall for private sector DB, to be honest.
On the freedom and choice agenda, as we have discussed, Budget 2014 announced radical flexibilities in how and when people access their pension arrangements. The Government undertook a consultation. The response was published in July and draft tax clauses for technical comment were published in August.
This Bill, along with the Taxation of Pensions Bill, will mean that, from April 2015, individuals from the age of 55 will be able to access that pension flexibility if they wish, subject to their marginal rate of income tax, rather than the current 55% tax charge. The Bill will make the required changes to pension legislation. As we have discussed, it includes a guidance guarantee that means everyone with money purchase benefits or cash balance benefits will be offered free, impartial guidance so they are clear on the range of options available to them at retirement. The Bill contains a duty on providers and schemes to ensure that they make people aware of their right to guidance.
The Taxation of Pensions Bill will legislate for the required tax regime changes. The Government will continue to allow members of private sector schemes offering safeguarded benefits—that is, benefits other than money purchase or cash balance benefits—the freedom to transfer to other types of scheme. In the majority of cases where a member has safeguarded benefits, it will continue to be in the best interests of the individual to remain in the scheme.
As we have discussed, there will be two additional safeguards: the requirement to take advice from a financial adviser, and guidance for trustees on using their existing powers to delay transfers and on taking account of scheme funding when deciding transfer values. In addition, the Exchequer will put in place safeguards in general not allowing unfunded public service defined benefit scheme transfers. For funded public service schemes, Ministers will have a power to reduce cash equivalent transfer values.
These are radical reforms that build on the Government’s changes to improve pensions in the UK. We believe that giving people greater choice has to be at the heart of the reforms: greater choice for business on the pensions they offer and greater choice for individuals on how they can access their pension savings. These are important changes to allow the private pensions market to flourish. I commend the Bill to the House.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
T3. It is all very well for the Minister to say that, but more than 200,000 young people have been out of work for over a year, which has consequences for the possibility of their finding work in the future. Youth unemployment is falling more slowly than overall unemployment, so what is she doing to help the youth of this country get back into employment?
Esther McVey
It is quite incredible that the hon. Gentleman should ask that question, considering that youth unemployment shot up by 45% under the Labour Government, and that we have managed to get more young people into work. As I have said, youth unemployment has fallen for nine consecutive months; it is 100,000 fewer than at the general election. He would be better off reading about what we have done, if he wants to know how to get young people into work.
amendment of the law
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
I shall make a little more progress before giving way to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love).
As a result, for the first time, we can rethink the rules and trust people to use their own money as they see fit, not as the Government tell them. After the Budget, gone will be the prescriptive limits on how and when people can turn their pension pot into annual income, which, we all agree led, for too long, to inertia among consumers and risked locking people into low-yield annuities, with rates that have fallen by 15% since 2009. In countries such as the United States, Australia and Denmark, Governments do not impose restrictions. Now, that will be the case in the UK too, freeing people to shape their finances in retirement as they choose, which is absolutely right.
We are consulting on guaranteed guidance—an important feature of the Budget—asking the Financial Conduct Authority to work with the pensions regulator, consumer groups and others, to develop a robust set of standards and monitoring arrangements, with £20 million provided to kick-start that thinking. Whether people choose to buy an annuity as now, take the cash, or grow their pension pot, the reforms will increase the attractiveness of saving for retirement. That will pave the way for new financial products, increasing competitiveness in the market, driving innovation and a better service, as well as giving people new choice over their future.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The OBR has forecast that under the Budget the savings ratio will fall to 3%. Is the Secretary of State concerned about that, and what action will he take to get savings back on an upward path?
Mr Duncan Smith
As I recall, the savings ratio under the previous Government fell to all-time lows, and under this Government it will be higher at the end of this Parliament than it ever was under Labour. When I take interventions from the Opposition they always fail to recognise that the economy crashed in 2009-10, taking 7.2% off gross domestic product, which had a staggering effect on savings and everything else. The reality is that we will have a better savings position, which will grow, given the fact that we are working to improve savings in pensions in the workplace, with a single-tier pension and giving people the right and responsibility to choose where their savings go.
Mr Duncan Smith
When the hon. Lady got up to make an intervention, I wondered whether she would take the opportunity to say how much she welcomes the fact that unemployment has fallen by 20% in her constituency—a very good thing. I know she does not want to say that, but I say it for her.
I have to say to that no, we do not regret that. What we have undertaken since we came into power is going to hugely incentivise and improve pension savings and the savings marketplace. The extra vehicles announced in the Budget will rapidly improve that and I believe, all in all, that we will have a much better savings position than we inherited, so I think I have answered that question.
I need to make the point about employment and unemployment. Let me get this right: when we came into power, we inherited a situation where unemployment rose by nearly half a million. At its peak, some 5 million were on out-of-work benefits—1 million for a decade or more—and in one in five households, no one worked. The number of households where no member had ever worked doubled under Labour, from 184,000 in 1997 on an upward trend to 351,000 by 2010. I do not recall Labour Members mentioning those figures, and they avoided them when they were in power.
Correspondingly, since we came to power, unemployment is down 168,000 since the election. The claimant count has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, which is the fastest annual fall since 1997. Workless households have fallen to the lowest rate since records began, down 450,000—two percentage points—since the end of 2010.
At the same time, we now have record employment: more people in work than ever before, more women in work than ever before and more people in work in the private sector than ever before—up over 1.7 million since the election. Ninety per cent. of the increase over the last year has come from British workers, unlike before, and more than three quarters of the increase since the election is from full-time work, up over 1 million compared with part-time work, which is up only 300,000.
Here is the point: we hear a lot from Labour Members about what they would do if they were in government, but youth unemployment increased under the previous Government by nearly half from 1997 to 2010—up almost 300,000. Now, on what the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary called
“the failure of this government to get young people into work”,
youth unemployment is down 81,000 on the year and is lower than what we inherited. The International Labour Organisation long-term youth unemployment is also down 37,000 on the year. The number of young people out of work and not in full-time education is down 63,000 and the long-term youth claimant count is down 23,900 on the year, having fallen for the last 15 consecutive months.
I remind the Opposition, who are chuntering away from a sedentary position, that under them long-term unemployment nearly doubled in two years, from 400,000 in 2008 to 800,000 in 2010. While they were seeing that rise, they gerrymandered the figures on the claimant count: 80,000 were put on to training allowances so that they came off the measurement of whether they were long term unemployed. Even though they were back out of work or back out of training, they went back as though they had just started their claims.
The trend slowed and is now falling. ILO long-term unemployment is down 38,000 this quarter and is down 59,000 on the year. The number on the claimant count for 12 months, ungerrymandered, is down 74,000 on the year—a fall of 17%. That is down, I believe, to so many of the reforms and changes that we have made, improving the labour market and improving the process of getting people back to work. The latest labour market statistics are remarkable and nothing demonstrates more clearly the Government’s success in getting Britain working.
Mr Duncan Smith
Again, I say to the hon. Gentleman that he really needs to address his question to those who were governing, because, as I said earlier, GDP fell by 7.5% under the previous Government during the recession. What does he think forced those economics for individuals and working households to fall? It was the fact that there was a massive recession—the biggest for 100 years —on Labour’s watch.
I want to make some progress. The latest labour market statistics are remarkable. The Work programme that we brought in is now helping long-term unemployed people dramatically: half a million people under the programme have started a job; 252,000 have now gone into sustained work; and 10 times as many people have achieved job outcomes now compared with the end of the first year.
Compared with the flexible new deal, one of Labour’s great flagship programmes, under the Work programme, twice as many people have gone into a job, and it costs £5,000 less per place according to all the estimates. So, too, with the work experience programme that we brought in, allowing young people to take a work experience placement for up to two months while still keeping their benefit. That has helped 50% of participants off benefits and into work. It has the same success rate as the future jobs fund, but at a 20th of the cost—£325 as opposed to £6,500 of wasted money. What is more, the majority of places are in the private sector, whereas the future jobs fund created jobs almost exclusively in the public sector.
This Budget has been very good for jobs but it is very good for apprenticeships as well. The Government have already committed to a quarter of a million more apprenticeships than Labour ever planned, with 1.6 million starts since 2010. The Budget announced £170 million more for another 100,000 apprenticeship grants and for developing new degree-level apprenticeships as well. It is important that the Government are not only finding and helping to find people work, but helping to shape their skills and experience.
Pensions Strategy
Andrew Love Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is a distinguished member of the Select Committee, which has scrutinised the issues very effectively. He is quite right that the guidance must come at the right time. We want people to think about their retirement planning much earlier. Certainly, when they are thinking about buying financial products—or, in the jargon, decumulating—we need to make sure that there is someone on their side to give them impartial guidance. We will make sure that that happens.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The Financial Conduct Authority is not only a process regulator but a product regulator. Will the Minister ensure that it is seized of the need to look carefully at new, innovative products, because the group of people with whom it is dealing are very vulnerable, and it is important for the regulator to keep an eye on the market?
Steve Webb
The hon. Gentleman is quite right that products must be properly regulated. The difference between the current situation and what we propose is that, under our proposals, before going to independent financial advisers, people are guaranteed to have a conversation with somebody who is independent and on their side to talk them through their options. All too many people simply do not get that at the moment, and they risk making the wrong choice as a result. We will put that right.
Food Banks
Andrew Love Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Hywel Williams
The hon. Lady makes a fine point. I was at the food bank in Caernarfon recently. It provides a range of goods, and at Christmas it provides a few extras, which is very welcome.
Food banks provide a vital short-term service and they deserve our support. However, they must not be a general long-term solution for the individuals who go to them and they must not be a permanent aspect of public policy. Food banks, if we have them at all, should supplement public provision. It is astonishing and shameful that, in the second decade of the 21st century, one of the richest countries in the world cannot ensure that its people get sufficient food.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the hon. Gentleman recognise the importance of welfare benefits advice? We have heard that many food banks provide such advice, but many do not. Given that one of the reasons for the growth of food banks is the paucity of welfare advice, is that not an important consideration in this debate?
Hywel Williams
It is indeed. I pay tribute to the services that do exist, but they are patchy. Sometimes they are provided by local authorities and sometimes by volunteers. I mention in passing that the Child Poverty Action Group has made a pertinent point about the value of advice and the level of under-claiming, which is a persistent problem.
In Wales, there has been a consistent decline in economic performance and in people’s ability to buy the food that they need. The figures are stark. Wales’s GVA per head compared with the UK average was 78.1% in 1997. In 2011, it was 75.2%. That is a decline of three percentage points. For west Wales and the valleys, which the European Union recognises as some of its poorest areas, the figures were 67.2% in 1997 and 65% in 2011—a further decline. This is a substantial historical problem, and it is growing. I am sure the remedies are easy to list, and we have heard some already: better economic growth, better income distribution, particularly in the poorest areas, a living wage, and ending fuel poverty.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Love Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Duncan Smith
That is correct. On average, about half a million vacant jobs are advertised, and that may not represent all the work that is available. Our universal jobmatch scheme ensures that claimants look for and apply for jobs, because they must be mandated on to the system. The number of private sector jobs has increased by 1.25 million since the election, and every six jobs created over the last six years correspond with one job loss in the public sector.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The House hears what the Secretary of State has to say about youth unemployment, but there is a youth unemployment crisis among young black men in particular. What action will he take to lower the present 50% level?
Mr Duncan Smith
I agree that there is a particular problem in that regard. I am talking to all the voluntary sector groups as well as to providers, including all our staff at the DWP, and also to Opposition Members. We need to make more progress, because youth unemployment is not good regardless of the numbers involved, and we cannot do enough to drive it down. I can give the hon. Gentleman a guarantee that we will make more efforts to deal with this particular problem.
Benefits Uprating
Andrew Love Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Steve Webb
It was entirely right that we went ahead with Labour’s planned cut to the winter fuel payment. We reversed the cold weather payment cut to prioritise the most vulnerable when it is most cold. I make no apology for that. It was important to put the full 5.2% through for people with no wage because of the pressures on household fuel bills and other costs. That is why it was vital that we stood by the most vulnerable even though money was tight.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister take this opportunity to admit that the policies of the coalition have led to a diminution of work incentives? If we are to believe press reports, that appears to be the opinion of the Secretary of State. Was there any consultation with the Chancellor about his autumn statement? Does this not show that the Government are in disarray over this issue?
Steve Webb
People are still better off in work. When we have the Secretary of State’s universal credit, that will be even more the case. The hon. Gentleman is focusing on a narrow aspect of the measures that we have taken. Personal income tax allowance increases, the cuts in fuel duty compared with Labour’s escalator plan and the cuts in council tax in real terms will all help people in work and make it pay to work. We have plans to take that further.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Love Excerpts(14 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
Our colleagues in the Treasury are establishing a commission to look at public sector pensions, and we have already had a meeting with our colleagues to try to ensure a fair deal both for the hard-working people who work in the public sector and for the taxpayers who are making a very large contribution to those pensions. It is important that the true cost is made transparent, which it clearly is not at present.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
T5. At a time when unemployment is forecast to increase to 3 million, this so-called coalition Government have decided to cut 100,000 jobs from the future jobs fund, but will not replace them until next summer. Is that just another example of unemployment being a price worth paying for this Government?
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has not been listening. There will be tens of thousands of new jobs created under the future jobs fund in the months ahead. However, we have changed the priorities, because we believe that long-term, sustainable employment is better supported by a programme of extra apprenticeships than by a short-term job creation measure of the kind envisaged by the previous Government.