Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

As my right hon. Friend knows, that decision will be made in the strategic defence and security review 2015. Whether the decision is to bring the ship into service or to mothball it, it will be kept at Portsmouth.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

At the time of the Grangemouth crisis, the First Minister of Scotland said that we should not try to play constitutional politics with such a serious issue, and I hope that he applies the same principle now to what is a very concerning time for workers in Govan.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement of the new contract, but that will give little comfort to workers in Portsmouth, Govan, Scotstoun, and Rosyth who will be losing their jobs during this difficult period. Will the Government give us a pledge that they will work with employees throughout the United Kingdom who are affected by what he has announced, with the trade unions and with the company to ensure that those who have lost their jobs are supported, while also trying to find a sustainable long-term future for shipbuilding that will protect jobs and investment in the UK?

[Mr Hammond]

What I have announced today will provide that sustainable long-term future for shipbuilding. We have answered the $64,000 question of how we would bridge the gap between completion of the aircraft carrier blocks and the commencement of the Type 26 build programme by commissioning three additional ocean-going patrol vessels which will be built on the Clyde. We have a sustainable naval shipbuilding industry in the United Kingdom, as of today’s announcement.

Of course it is regrettable that jobs will be lost. That is a function of the surge in the size of the industry that is needed to deliver these very large carriers. We will work across Government with the unions, communities and other stakeholders who will be affected to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) on securing the debate.

Any debate on the deployability of UAVs should be determined by military requirements, by the ethics of the conflict and, above all, by facts. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) that some of the supposed facts that are being circulated are getting in the way of the proper debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston initiated.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) mentioned Afghanistan, and I would like to put on record our admiration for, and thanks to, the members of our armed forces who are serving there.

Today’s technology and security issues are changing at an ever more rapid pace. The technology that has been developed was unforeseen a matter of years ago, but so too were the threats and dangers that we now face as a nation. Any threat that we face must be put in context, and the context and objectives for deploying force must involve a number of criteria: the maximum strategic advantage over our enemy, protecting UK service personnel and—quite rightly—minimising civilian casualties and acting at all times within humanitarian and international law. Also, we should make sure that deployment is in line with our national interest and our right, as a nation, to self-defence.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes a strong case for the use of UAVs, but does he accept that the continuing criticism of and controversy about the misuse, sometimes, of drones, particularly in parts of Pakistan, where there are high levels of civilian casualties, undermine the rightful case for UAVs when they are in our strategic interest?

[Mr Jones]

I shall refer to Pakistan later, but having been there, and having been a Defence Minister, I accept that there is a big gulf between those who are democratically elected in Pakistan, and the military. I do not accept that some of the actions being taken in northern Pakistan are being done without the knowledge of the Pakistan military. I accept that that creates tensions in Pakistan, but not the idea that some of those things are being done without any knowledge on the part of people in authority there. Having spoken to politicians on my last visit to Pakistan I know that they find that situation difficult; however, that is a debate within the context of the democratic accountability of the armed forces in Pakistan. I assure my hon. Friend that some intelligence and other targeting involve co-operation with the Pakistan military.

In the context that I have outlined, our judgment is that the UK’s current position on deployment of UAVs seems to meet the criteria I have specified. However, we should keep that issue under constant review. It has already been said that it is important to distinguish the deployment of the UK’s UAVs from the deployment of those of our allies. I understand that at present some 76 nations operate UAVs and, as has already been described, the UK deploys four types in Afghanistan. However, only one of those, the Reaper, has an armed capacity. The main focus for our UAV technology in Afghanistan is surveillance and support of our operations, and I have seen at first hand the tremendous job it does in protecting convoys and intelligence gathering, which is vital for the security of our and our allies’ armed forces personnel.

As a matter of technology, UAVs can be more cost-effective in carrying out surveillance and other forms of projecting power. If we did not use their surveillance capacity in relation to convoy protection we would have many more casualties in Afghanistan. I do not accept the argument that UAVs are more indiscriminate, when used in a kinetic role, than conventional aircraft. Their ability to loiter for a long period gives more information to those who are deciding the targeting than is available to a manned aircraft. It would be wrong to give the impression that UAVs are a magic solution to all our defence needs; but they are very important in the defence of the country. The Opposition’s policy is clear. We support unmanned technology as an important element of military capability that complements our manned aerial capability, but with a desire to ensure that it is used in the right context.

The UK does not work on operations in isolation; it works with allies—and not only on operations, but, as has been mentioned, in co-operation on development. It would be interesting to hear what stage of development has been reached after the new Anglo-French agreement on co-operating on the next generation of UAVs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston and other hon. Members mentioned, the use of UAVs by our most important strategic partner, the United States, has caused public controversy. It is important to distinguish the UK’s use of UAVs from that of the United States. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife made the important point that most of our UAV deployment in Afghanistan is for surveillance and is not armed, and that deployment of UAVs is only within the borders of Afghanistan. However, we must all recognise the threat that we, the United States and our other allies face from concerted Islamic terrorism and groups who seek to undermine our way of life and destabilise Afghanistan and other parts of the world.

A lot has been written and said about civilian casualties, and all civilian casualties are a matter of great sadness and deep regret. It is difficult to get the true picture and figures. I do not want to talk in statistics, because one life lost means a family is mourning a loved one. Our major aim should be to do anything that can be done to minimise civilian casualties, whether from a strike by a UAV or by any other conventional weaponry. I know from my time in the Ministry of Defence that the military take that very seriously. The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) mentioned artillery rounds and other things that are far more indiscriminate than some of the technology.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman is seeking to jump some way ahead. The aircraft carrier will not be deployed in its full air strike capability until 2020. The main gate decision on the T-26 is not until the middle of the decade, so he is asking me to foresee military capability several years away. He may not be surprised that we are at least contemplating trialling some capability for future use at some stage. I will not be pressed further on that point, but I will address some of the issues that the hon. Lady mentioned. I want to continue setting the scene for a few more minutes.

The Reaper system, which is the UK’s only armed RPAS, is flown by professional pilots who remain in full control of the aircraft at all times; they follow the law of armed conflict and the UK rules of engagement in exactly the same way as pilots of manned aircraft. Reaper, as with other forms of RPAS, is primarily used for intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance, but through technological advance it has been enabled to be armed with precision-guided weapons, thereby meeting a secondary military requirement.

The decision-making process leading to the identification and engagement of a target by one of the two weapons systems available to UK Reapers is identical to that of conventionally manned aircraft, but the greater access to information through a combination of the aircraft’s onboard sensors, ability to access off-board information and duration of missions enables them to be deployed before engagement. Reaper pilots are, arguably, the best informed and connected of all air crew in this operating environment. They are well placed to provide battle-winning surveillance and engagement capability to meet UK ground forces’ needs.

The Reaper was fielded in 2007 and as of 1 December, despite more than 42,000 hours flown over Afghanistan, it has fired only 360 weapons—52 laser-guided bombs and 308 laser-guided Hellfire missiles. Of those precision-guided weapons on Reaper, the type employed is carefully selected in every engagement, which ensures that the most appropriate munition is used to deliver the required effect, in a proportional manner, thus minimising the risk to civilians and their property. The sophistication of the weapons also provides the ability remotely to change the course of the weapon post release, which is another example of the many steps taken by RPAS to avoid civilian casualties as collateral damage.

I am aware of only one incident where civilians have been killed by weapons deployed from a UK Reaper. As I mentioned last month, on 25 March 2011, there was a strike on two pick-up trucks in Afghanistan carrying a significant quantity of explosives, which resulted in the death of two insurgents and four Afghan civilians. That incident was highly regrettable. The subsequent report did, however, confirm that the actions of the Reaper crew had been in accordance with extant procedures and UK rules of engagement. Every weapon released by the UK’s RPAS is under the command of a professional pilot bound by the UK rules of engagement.

Touching on a point raised by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) about the psychological considerations of operating the Reaper, the experience thus far suggests that far from being detached from the reality of the situation, Reaper air crew are just as connected to the situation on the ground as operators of other aircraft types. They have increased information available to them, a longer time to study the information and the ability to abort the mission even after they have fired the weapon. The increasing specialisation of the role of flying RPAS is being considered by the RAF for recognition as a distinct skill within the flying service.

Of course Reaper is not the only RPAS operated in Afghanistan. To correct the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), there are in fact five types—not four—of unmanned aircraft systems in operation. As I have already mentioned, Reaper is the only armed version, but we have also deployed the Hermes 450, which has already flown 65,000 hours for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance purposes. It will be replaced by the more modern Watchkeeper, which again is for surveillance purposes and is not armed. In response to the question put by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston about Watchkeeper, training is already under way and we expect the system to replace Hermes during 2013. These and other smaller deployed tactical systems being operated by Army units in Afghanistan form part of a mix of airborne ISR capabilities, of which they are but one, albeit increasingly important, component. They complement the more traditional manned surveillance capabilities provided by our other aircraft types. Looking further ahead, technological advances are likely to increase the level of automation in some systems, just as in other non-military equipment, but I stress the point that the Government have no intention of developing systems that operate without human intervention in the weapon command and control chain.

Let me turn to the other specific points mentioned by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston. On the main thrust of her remarks on the moral and ethical considerations, it would be instructive for her to look at the joint doctrine note 2/11, if she has not done so already, to which the hon. Member for North Durham referred. It was published in March 2011 by the Government, and was the first Government sponsored document to go into the UK’s approach to unmanned aircraft systems. It has a specific section on moral and ethical considerations, which inform the rules of engagement and the operations in which we are engaged at present.

[Anas Sarwar]

The Minister has quite rightly outlined the moral and ethical use of drones by the UK Government. What discussions have we had with our allies to ensure that they are applying the same principles?

[Mr Dunne]

As is standard procedure, I am here to answer for the UK Government use of unmanned air vehicles. Other countries that use such systems have their own rules of engagement, as is the case for the UK. We do not publish rules of engagement for the sensible reason that to do so would risk prejudicing the capability, effectiveness or operational security of our armed forces, and that is also the doctrine applied by other countries.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston asked about the military chain of command and whether it would be retained. We have no plans in the Ministry of Defence to operate any of our facilities outside the military chain of command. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife referred to potential civil uses in the future for airborne surveillance equipment; the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred to offshore fishing. It is conceivable that in due course other Departments might find other uses for the technology, but I am not aware that it is something that the MOD is engaged in at present.

Future Reserves 2020

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Thursday 8th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

There are different types of recruits and, to put it frankly, I say with the greatest respect to my hon. Friend that someone who is looking to join up in order to prop up a bar on a Monday night and have an occasional outing on Salisbury plain is probably not the person we are looking for. All the discussions I have had with reservists suggest to me that they want to be taken seriously, and they know that a higher training tariff, a greater focus on skills and much more working together with the regular Army—sharing the burden of routine tasks and routine deployments with it—is the way to increase the esteem in which the reserve is held.

What we are doing on the size of the regular Army is determined by the budgetary envelope we have as a result of the black hole in the defence budget that we inherited. The exercise announced today is about ensuring that, notwithstanding that necessity, we maintain the military capacity we need in the future.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

This Government are determined to undermine and weaken employee rights. What assurances can the Secretary of State give to reservists that he will protect and strengthen their rights at work?

[Mr Hammond]

I am not quite sure what that question was all about. Under the Reserve Forces Act 1996, reservists’ employment rights are protected when they are mobilised—employers are required to keep their workplace open for them. As I said in my statement, however, our Green Paper addresses the issue of discrimination. We have not ruled out the use of legislation if there is evidence of systematic or widespread discrimination against reservists, if that cannot be tackled in any other way, just as we have legislation preventing employers from discriminating against someone who might be likely to take maternity leave, for example.

Oral Answers to Questions

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robathan]

I have to say that that question is best addressed to the SNP, but unfortunately no SNP Members are here to answer it at the moment. It is almost incredible that a country might wish to join NATO but then say that NATO’s assets and armaments would not be allowed to be stationed in that country or pass through it.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

The Minister has noted that there is no SNP presence in the House today. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) said, “Who dares wins,” but SNP Members do not dare turn up to engage in the debate.

Does the Minister agree that it smacks of a contradiction for the SNP to say that it wants to join an international alliance and promote co-operation with NATO, and at the very same time say that it wants to leave a Union that best serves the defence of Scotland?

[Mr Robathan]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I entirely agree. That is an interesting dilemma that members of the SNP will have to sort out among themselves.

Defence Reform

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I understand people’s emotional attachment to the regiments, and I understand the proud traditions and how they are held. However, I must say that I always find the Scottish National party talking about this issue difficult. If we had an independent Scotland, not only would many of these regiments doubtless have their cap badges removed, but they would be abolished altogether. The SNP’s so-called campaign on this issue is a little hollow, to say the least. The SNP needs to explain exactly what the new Scottish armed forces would be if Scotland were to be independent. Would the Navy be something like fishery protection vessels? Would the Army be downgraded to some type of border force to patrol the border between Scotland and Northumberland? [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman comments from a sedentary position, but the SNP claims to be supporting these regiments and the onus is on him to say exactly what the SNP is going to do if there is to be independence in Scotland, not only on regiments, but what the shape and format of the defence forces of an independent Scotland would take. I am sure that they would be a lot smaller and a lot more ineffective than what we have now. I doubt whether they would be larger, and I am not sure what their role would be and whether they would be in or out of a NATO command structure.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before the shadow Minister takes that intervention, may I just point out that this is a time-limited debate and he has been incredibly generous in the interventions he has taken? That is not, however, to stop the intervention he is about to take.

[Anas Sarwar]

I come back to that important point about the separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Is my hon. Friend aware of comments made by Alex Salmond, Scotland’s First Minister, earlier this year? He called the MOD plans exactly the sort of “configuration you’d want”.

Defence Equipment and Support: Recruitment

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Monday 10th October 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Anas Sarwar]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of recruitment and retention rates for Defence Equipment and Support staff based in (a) Glasgow and (b) Bristol.

[Official Report, 6 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 546W.]

Letter of correction from Andrew Robathan:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) on 6 September 2011. The original answer failed to take account of organisational changes that took place in April 2011 but which were not recorded on the departmental HR management information system until August. The data provided in the original answer covered the period August 2010 to July 2011 only.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Mr Robathan]

Defence Equipment and Support currently employs around 100 civilian staff in Glasgow and around 5,500 civilian staff at its headquarters in Bristol. The significant difference in numbers means that direct comparisons cannot readily be made. In the year to July 2011, about 2.5% of Bristol staff and about 1% of Glasgow staff left through retirement or resignation compared with around 4.5% for Defence Equipment and Support as a whole.

The restrictions on recruitment across the whole of the Ministry of Defence mean that there has only been external recruitment into critical or specialised posts. In the year to July 2011, we recruited around 150 new staff in Bristol and none in Glasgow.

The correct answer should have been:

Armed Forces (Redundancies)

Anas Sarwar Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr Fox]

The squadrons that were removed from service were not covered by the SDSR announcement; what happened was the result of the previous Government’s decision in the 2009 planning round, which is now being implemented.

[Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)]

We must not forget that 11,000 of our bravest men and women have lost their jobs because of the Secretary of State’s decision. Many of them, and their families, watching or listening will find his tone rather distasteful and smug at this time. We must remember that they are men and women who risk their lives every day in defence of this great country. They deserve a lot more respect than they are being shown in the Secretary of State’s answers.

[Dr Fox]

Clearly we are going to disagree on our approach, because what the hon. Gentleman calls smug, I would call angry. We are very angry indeed that we were left with a £38 billion hole in the Ministry of Defence and a massive national deficit, the interest payments on which are bigger than our defence budget. We are angry, but we are absolutely determined to get the situation under control, and then we will urge the British people never again to elect such an economically incompetent Government as the previous one.