United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 21st September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that point. A fundamental principle of our constitution, and one that lies at the very heart of our exit from the EU, is that this Parliament is sovereign. As set out in clause 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, that means that it can choose to legislate to deliver an interpretation of the protocol consistent with our understanding, while recognising that to do so is a significant step. The parliamentary procedure set out in amendment 66 recognises that, and provides a clearer, more explicit democratic mandate for the use of the powers. I therefore commend amendment 66 to the Committee, and urge my hon. Friend and all Members to support it and not to press amendment 4.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Walker]

Not right now—I will come back to the right hon. Gentleman.

Amendments 64 and 65, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, make it clear that any regulations made under clauses 42 or 43 would, of course, be subject to judicial review, contrary to some of the claims that have been made over recent weeks, while ensuring that any claims must be brought within a three-month period. That ensures that any challenge to the regulations will be subject to a timely resolution before the courts, which is essential to ensure that Northern Ireland businesses and investors in Northern Ireland have the certainty that they need, which is at the heart of the Bill. I commend those amendments to the House. As they clarify the position on judicial review, amendment 44 is not necessary.

Amendments 61 to 63, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, are targeted technical amendments to ensure that the Government are able to maintain the integrity of the UK’s VAT and excise systems and can deal with any threats to biosecurity in Great Britain in response to changes required in Northern Ireland under the protocol.

In particular, the amendments ensure that the Government can act to address cases of double taxation and non-taxation created by the Northern Ireland protocol, as well as to close down opportunities for tax evasion.

The amendments will also ensure that both the UK Government and the devolved Administrations can continue, as they do now, to respond to specific biosecurity threats arising from the movement of animals and high-risk plants. The principle of facilitating actions to protect biosecurity on an ongoing basis between England, Scotland and Wales is already reflected in schedule 1 to the Bill. The amendments simply clarify that similar processes can also apply with regard to Northern Ireland where there is a genuine risk of a biosecurity threat that poses a serious threat to the health of humans, animals or plants.

I commend those amendments to the Committee.

[Mr Carmichael]

May I take the Minister back to the undertaking that he gave to his hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill)? Some of us have some misgivings about that undertaking, because this Government have shown an exceptional fondness for withdrawing the Whip from those in their own party who disagree with them. In the circumstances of the parliamentary lock being necessary, can we get an assurance from the Treasury Bench at some point in this debate that any such vote will be a free vote?

[Mr Walker]

The right hon. Gentleman should know better, with his extensive experience, than to ask me to comment on whipping matters.

Several of the amendments in this group seek to unpick, either implicitly or explicitly, the safety-net measures set out in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Robert Neill]

Let me put it this way: if my hon. Friend is saying that the test is something akin to that in article 46 of the Vienna convention on the law of treaties, which permits a departure from an international obligation if the violation that causes it is

“manifest and concerned a rule of its internal law of fundamental importance”,

I am not a million miles away from him. It is not an exact analogy and I do not think my hon. Friend was trying to make one, but it would have to be something similarly fundamental.

From my point of view, one could conceive—I use my words carefully—that a Government might be able to persuade the House that there was such a threat to the position of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom, and to the welfare of its economy and people, that one might take such a step. That is why, having thought and hesitated for some time, I am prepared to allow the Government the opportunity to make that case. None the less, it is a high bar, and I have to say that the fact that other jurisdictions—be it the EU or others—may have derogated from international treaties is not of itself persuasive. Many of us would need to be persuaded by the evidence that was brought in relation to the specific circumstances that might trigger the bringing into force of the three clauses under the arrangements set out in Government amendment 66. That is the point and will be the only test that will be relevant.

[Mr Carmichael]

I have sympathy with the argument that the hon. Gentleman is making, but I have to say that the practicalities will take us in a very different direction. Last week, No. 10 Downing Street was briefing out that the hon. Gentleman and those who agreed with him would have the Whip removed if they followed through on his amendment. That is the pressure under which Government Members will be put. May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is possible the Government have accepted his proposition because they see it as something that in practice will not cause them any difficulty?

[Sir Robert Neill]

I shall make two points to the right hon. Gentleman. First, he knows my record does not indicate that I am always in terror of voting against the Whip. Secondly, if anything like that was being briefed out, I never heard it, it was never said to me and I am shocked that any Government would brief such a thing without saying it to the face of the Members concerned.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Warburton (Somerton and Frome) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to contribute to a debate with such significant implications. I will be brief; I reckon I can be the first person to break precedent and stick within five minutes, because I know an enormous number of colleagues want to speak.

The Bill really is crucial in maintaining the integrity and the smooth operation of the UK’s internal market, and ensuring that they are underpinned by the principle of non-discrimination across the four constituent parts of our Union. I will focus on clause 45 and its constitutional ramifications, because the question that has been engrossing the Committee, and the public, is that of the notwith- standing powers and their potential breach of international law.

Even a potential breach of international law is to be treated with the utmost seriousness, but to suggest, as some have, that the provisions of the Bill place us in some sort of moral equivalence with China or Russia really is risible. Degree and proportion matter. Clause 45, as I hope it will be amended by amendment 66, equips democratically elected Members of this House to decide whether or not to protect the powers outlined in clauses 42 and 43 in the case of need. Should this House decide to, it would mitigate the risk of the UK’s internal market splintering, with all the potential consequences that would flow from that.

There is no equivalence there, and I do not believe that the Bill is symptomatic of some kind of collapse of British support for a rules-based international order. We have heard a lot of this before, but I must say that I do not remember the same level of outrage bursting forth when Germany or France violated treaty obligations on deficit and debt levels, when Canada broke international law to legalise cannabis, or in the Kadi and Barakaat case, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) mentioned, when the European Court of Justice ruled that the EU should ignore the UN charter—the highest source of international law—if it conflicted with the EU’s internal constitutional order. The ECJ then said:

“A treaty can never enjoy primacy over provisions…that form part of the constitutional foundations of the union.”

That cuts to the heart of the issue. When treaty obligations threatened to damage the constitutional coherence of the EU, it felt not only free but obligated to disregard them.

That is not to say, of course, that anyone should contemplate the EU using such powers lightly, but if, and only if, a situation arose where the movement of goods between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK was hampered and access to our internal markets was fettered, not only would it be essential but surely we, too, would be obliged to have powers in place to meet such a contingency. Like the EU, the UK has a Union to protect, and it is absolutely right that it equips itself to do so through the clauses we are currently considering. That is why I cannot support Opposition amendments that seek to de-fang clause 45.

I pay tribute to the hard work of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green), and I am reassured by Government amendment 66 that the exercise of these powers will require parliamentary approval. As I said, even a limited breach of international law is a serious matter and it is right that colleagues from across the House will have the opportunity to exercise their judgment in that respect. Of course, no one wants to see Ministers forced to come to this House seeking approval to use these powers, not least because that would suggest that the attempts of the EU and the UK to agree a trade deal had stalled or failed altogether.

Finally, it is worth restating that of course a trade deal is in the best interests of the EU and the UK, but if all efforts to secure such a deal fail and the EU then acts on its threat to damage the UK, it is essential that we have the necessary tools to protect our national coherence and the economic framework on which that depends.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael]

I am sure, Dame Rosie, that over the years, you and I have both sat through many debates where it was obvious eventually that everything had been said but that not yet everybody had said it. I fear that we may be into that territory today, but uniquely, I think we got to that point after the first contribution from a Back Bencher. The contribution from the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) was quite one of the most remarkable and clinical deconstructions of the Government’s argument that it was possible to imagine. She spoke with total conviction and clarity, which together were absolutely irresistible. In fact, I think it is worth recording for the benefit of Hansard that no one on the Treasury Bench did resist her. The Minister and the Secretary of State could have intervened and sought to put her right if they thought they were able to do so, but of course they did not. They sat there and squirmed, and it was a joy for many Opposition Members to watch. It took me back to another similar moment in March 2003, when the late Robin Cook delivered his resignation statement from the Government Back Benches. Again, there was the same conviction and clarity delivered at a moment of existential significance and in relation to a matter that will inevitably bring this country into conflict with the rule of law.

It is worth recalling why we have a protocol to the withdrawal agreement in the first place. It is essentially as a result of the Prime Minister’s determination to remove us from the customs union. The right hon. Member for Maidenhead understood that, and when she sought to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, she came forward with the backstop. It was that backstop that the now Prime Minister resigned over, eventually, and then proceeded to stick pins into the right hon. Lady until she too could stand it no longer. He eventually took her place, at which point he renegotiated the withdrawal agreement with the protocol attached to it. The essence of that renegotiation, of which he has boasted so many times since, was rooted in that backstop.

Tonight was always going to come, because the Government and the Prime Minister have insisted all along that they could do three things when at best they could only ever do two. They told us that they could leave the customs union, that they could avoid the placing of a hard border on the mainland of Ireland, and that they could avoid a border down the Irish sea. Once we come out of the customs union, we can only do one or other; we cannot do them both. And what we have seen tonight is these chickens coming home to roost. Goodness only knows they were warned often enough.

Northern Ireland Protocol: UK Legal Obligations

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

Yes. My hon. Friend makes a hugely important point. We should be clear that the UK internal market Bill and the Finance Bill are the last two legislative opportunities for us to put into law what we will need to do if the Joint Committee and the negotiations do not come to a satisfactory conclusion. It is nothing more than that. It means that we have a sensible and reasonable position and can say to people in Northern Ireland, “If that is what happens, this is what the situation will be in January.” It gives confidence and certainty to businesses and people in Northern Ireland that we will deliver for them.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What authority do we have to criticise China for not keeping her side of the bargain under the joint declaration on Hong Kong if we are seen to approach our own treaty obligations to the European Union in this way?

[Brandon Lewis]

As I said earlier, specific issues in the protocol were always designed to be worked out through the Joint Committee. It is right that the Government are taking reasonable, sensible and limited actions to make sure we have that certainty for people in January should the Joint Committee and the withdrawal agreement negotiations for the free trade agreement not come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The court was clear that the Executive, through their action of not designating, or refusing to designate, a Department, which was down to the Deputy First Minister, were acting illegally. The hon. Gentleman puts forward an interesting proposal, which I am sure that the Finance Ministry, in terms of wanting to make sure that Northern Ireland’s finances are well spent, will consider properly.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the effect on the Northern Ireland economy of the UK leaving the EU.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

What assessment he has made of the potential benefits to the Northern Ireland economy of the proposals set out in the Government’s July 2020 UK internal market White Paper.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

By the end of this year, the process of transition to our new relationship with the EU will be completed. I and colleagues across the Cabinet are determined to ensure that Northern Ireland benefits fully from the opportunities that that will bring.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am sure that all in business will welcome the announcement from the Secretary of State that there will be guidance given to all those trading in Northern Ireland by 1 November, but can he explain to the House how one formulates guidance for the implementation of a deal that has not yet been done, or will that guidance be written on the presumption that there will be no deal?

[Brandon Lewis]

As we did with the guidance that we outlined just before the House broke for the summer recess, we have done it in conjunction with our partners in businesses across Northern Ireland through the business engagement forum that we have put together. We are consulting with businesses about what they need to live on the protocol, and that protocol does give confidence to businesses about what will be in place next year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 24th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I absolutely encourage people to avail themselves of those opportunities. It is worth noting that on 1 May the UK Government, together with the Executive, announced a generous £5.7 million funding support package for City of Derry and Belfast City airports so that we can keep this connectivity going. There is a huge opportunity for Northern Ireland tourism. As we enter the recovery phase, many more people from across the UK can go and visit the beautiful sights across Northern Ireland.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What discussions he has had with representatives of businesses in Northern Ireland on the cross-border transfer of jobs to the Republic of Ireland.

[The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)]

Northern Ireland is and will remain a great place for businesses to invest and grow. Only this week we saw Belfast listed among the top 10 tech cities of the future. A number of companies have recently announced investments into the Northern Ireland economy, including Randox, Cygilant and Hypixel Studios.

[Mr Carmichael]

May I bring to the attention of the Minister, in case he has missed it, the words of the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who said recently that businesses in Northern Ireland were telling him that because of the uncertainties they faced they were considering shifting jobs into the Republic of Ireland? Will he not listen to the warnings of a very highly respected former Secretary of State and actually start engaging with businesses instead of just disregarding them?

[Mr Walker]

I share the right hon. Gentleman’s respect for the former Secretary of State, but there is no need for Northern Ireland businesses to move elsewhere to trade with the UK. The Government will provide unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the UK market. Working together with the Executive, we can provide strong conditions for recovery that will make Northern Ireland an excellent place to invest.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

It is absolutely clear that the process of goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain is within the control of the UK Government. We have made clear commitments with regard to ensuring unfettered access to the whole of the UK internal market.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

10. What assessment he has made of the effect of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 on the Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Robin Walker)]

The deal implemented in domestic law through the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 means that we have left the EU as one United Kingdom. The protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland guarantees Northern Ireland’s integral place in the UK. This Government will never be neutral in expressing our support for the Union and our steadfast belief that Northern Ireland’s best interests are served within a strong United Kingdom.

[Mr Carmichael]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster told us yesterday that we do not need a deal with the European Union. If he is right, what will that mean for the future of Northern Ireland in the Union?

Northern Ireland: Restoring Devolution

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The creation of a customs border down the Irish sea and the necessary declarations that we now hear will be necessary as a consequence is something about which Ruth Davidson and the Secretary of State’s right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State for Scotland warned last year. They said then, and it is true now, that it will undermine the Union. Why is the Secretary of State disregarding his right hon. Friend’s advice?

[Julian Smith]

I am not disregarding the advice of anybody, but this is a deal that protects the border. This was a key priority for me as Secretary of State. It protects the peace process. I think the economy of Northern Ireland will benefit from this deal. We are delivering on Brexit, but protecting the economy and protecting the peace process. This mechanism, I say again, has no bearing on the Assembly, and I would work over the implementation period with colleagues across Government to minimise any problems for Northern Ireland businesses in exporting and selling into Great Britain.

Investigation of Veterans

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2019 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I certainly did not want to imply that we are countenancing being leisurely about this. This situation has been wrong for many years. The only reason for not announcing something tomorrow—or, indeed, today or yesterday—is simply that we need to ensure that we have put all the answers from the consultation out and in front of the House, so people have a chance to work through the details and ask, “All right, what does this mean in practice then?” We need to move as fast as we can, but it has to be as fast as we can in a way that is consistent with forging a consensus in Northern Ireland. We have to ensure that whatever answer we come up with sticks, survives and works for both sides of the community, otherwise it will come unravelled in the fullness of time and we will have failed to protect our veterans from the kind of problems that we have all heard about and that I think everyone here agrees are absolutely unacceptable.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) is quite right when he says that this question really ought to be answered by the Secretary of State for Defence, because it is her intervention that has left the Government with a policy that is totally lacking in any coherence.

Quite apart from the inconsistencies that others have highlighted, we are now, we understand from the Secretary of State for Defence, to disapply the European convention on human rights in this area. Is that Government policy that she speaks of, and if so, where does the Minister, as a Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office, think that leaves the Good Friday agreement?

[John Penrose]

Let me first address the right hon. Gentleman’s point about whether this is a matter for the Ministry of Defence or the Northern Ireland Office. He is of course right that the Ministry of Defence has a major, major stake in getting this right. As he would expect—as everybody would expect—the Secretary of State for Defence wants to make sure that this issue is dealt with as promptly as possible. The Ministry of Defence is not the only Department to have a stake, because clearly there are former police officers in Northern Ireland—members of the PSNI—who could also be vulnerable to such predatory legal attack, or whatever, and we need to make sure that they are properly dealt with too. He is right that the MOD is a vital part, but it is not all of it, and that is why the issue goes broader than just veterans of Her Majesty’s armed forces.

On human rights, as I said earlier, all we have to go on at the moment are the press reports and the outlines of the Secretary of State for Defence’s proposals. I did not see those as having—and I do not think she meant them to have—anything to do with contradicting human rights. It is clear that anything we come up with, if it is to be legally robust, has to be compliant with article 2 in human rights terms, because if we do not have a process that is compliant with article 2, we will have failed to protect our veterans, whether they are former members of the armed forces or former members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. If we fail to protect them from proper legal challenge because we have designed a process that is not compliant with article 2, we will have failed in our duty and failed to deliver what everybody here, of all parties, wishes to achieve.

Northern Ireland: Political Process

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I am obviously here today to talk about starting a talks process to restore devolution in Northern Ireland. Decisions about the withdrawal agreement and so on are probably above my pay grade at this point.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

For as long as there has been a peace process, my party has been part of a non-partisan approach to it in this House. In that spirit, may I offer my congratulations and welcome the news that the Secretary of State brings to the House today about the resumption of talks? It is not the case, however, that the whole political process in Northern Ireland has been failing in recent years. My sister party, the Alliance party, has come forward on several occasions with different initiatives, including the appointment of an independent mediator and a review of the petition of concern process. Will the Secretary of State assure me that its voice will be heard in this process, and that the sensible suggestions that it has brought to the table thus far will be given due prominence?

[Karen Bradley]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support and assure him that it will be an inclusive five-party talks process. The suggestions, ideas and considerations that have been put forward by all parties will of course form part of the process. We want inclusive power sharing that comprises all five parties that are eligible to be part of the Executive.

Northern Ireland: Murder of Lyra McKee

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will consider carefully all the points he made. He will know that the Fresh Start agreement committed not only money but resources to the tackling of paramilitary activity. One of the problems is that that agreement is a responsibility of the Executive Office, which is another reason why we need to see devolution restored. [Interruption.] I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, as he shakes his head, that this needs to be tackled and dealt with. He is right that tonight we need to think about a family who are grieving, but in future we need to think about such measures.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

May I add my own expression of revulsion at this most brutal and senseless act and offer my condolences and those of my party to the family of Lyra McKee and to all those who knew her?

At a moment such as this, I always think that it is important to identify some sort of positive towards which we can work. For my part, I hope that for whatever unwanted and unwantable reason that we may find ourselves here today, everybody now in this House and throughout the rest of Great Britain—I use the term Great Britain advisedly—understands that the peace in Northern Ireland is still a very, very fragile thing and not something to be taken for granted. We have seen in the most graphic way possible that when politicians leave a vacuum the men of violence will fill it. When the Secretary of State speaks to the parties in Northern Ireland later this week, will she give leadership and make sure that, as a consequence of that, we see the political process back at the centre of Northern Ireland’s life again?

[Karen Bradley]

The right hon. Gentleman talks about politics in Northern Ireland. Of course, Northern Ireland is one of the places in the world that has been most transformed by politics: politics won over violence; politics won over terror—words won. People made enormous sacrifices, both personally and collectively as a community, in order to achieve the peace that we have seen over the past 21 years. He is right that it is a fragile peace; things can flare up at any time, as we saw last week. Hon. and right hon. Members have talked about the regularity of these kind of attacks and activities. Business as usual in Northern Ireland is not business as usual as many people in Great Britain would expect it to be, or would accept, and that needs to change. It is absolutely clear that we need to have devolution restored, but the lack of devolution is not the reason for these attacks. These attacks have been going on for far too long. There is no excuse for the acts that we saw; there is no excuse for anything that we have seen; and there is no excuse for the person who pulled that trigger and shot Lyra McKee.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Alistair Carmichael Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 6th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point. Obviously, it is not a small difference; in fact, it is a huge difference to those on what could be described as the receiving end, those at the £20,000 level, or the non-receiving end for those at the £2,000 level. The details for a particular farm that I will come on to bear out exactly the point that she makes.

We need to know about state aid compliance, not only what lies behind it but how it has the system so circumscribed that we can do no other. I want to challenge Ministers on some of the things that they have told us. For example, the Secretary of State said that the cost of fuel might be different in Great Britain from Northern Ireland. I am told, however, that a lot of our non-home-grown fuel is imported from the Baltic states, where there is an awful lot of wood—I can assure the House of that, because I have seen it. Those pellets are shipped from the Baltic states to the UK generally, and I can recognise no enormous difference in the cost thresholds such as to produce a very different cost profile in Northern Ireland—a much cheaper one—from that in Great Britain. That we would have such different cost pressures does not seem logical. We need proper answers to such questions, although I fear that we will not get them today.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. The purported purpose of this legislation is to give certainty. I have rarely seen the Government produce legislation that is so obviously ripe for legal challenge on the basis of legitimate expectation. In such circumstances, at the end of the day, surely we will not even give the people concerned, the recipients of the subsidies, the certainty that the Government claim they want.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

These are unusual times for Northern Ireland and this is an unusual Bill. It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that what we have today is something of an essay crisis; that is to say, something presented as being urgent and in need of consideration by the House in one day that could in fact easily have been considered more electively.

It has been said that we should decouple the two elements of the Bill. In truth, most of the Bill relates to the renewable heat incentive. The regional rate issue is largely unobjectionable and would pass with the greatest of ease through the House on a bipartisan basis, but we have to accept that politically the renewable heat incentive is an extremely toxic issue. After all, it has brought us to the sorry pass that we are currently in, with the collapse of the Executive and the Assembly. It is absolutely central to the political chaos that currently afflicts Northern Ireland and that is adversely impacting on the lived experience of people in Northern Ireland, so it demands that we look at the legislation closely and in a considered and measured fashion, of the sort that usually involves a proper Committee stage. That is not being offered on this occasion. I share the surprise expressed by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) that these two completely different issues have been conjoined in this rather unusual Bill. I have sympathy with his suggestion that the two might be separated so that we can pass that which is unobjectionable and straightforward and consider on a more elective basis those bits—those clauses—that are more complicated.

A 12% return is pretty good by any standards. A casual observer of our proceedings would wonder, I suspect, what the fuss is all about—I would love to have a 12% return on my investments—but the fact of the matter is that those small businesses that invested in this technology did so on the copper-bottomed understanding that they would get a different rate of return. The institutions that lent on that basis would have been similarly advised, and the investment would have been procured on that basis. We now have to unpick something of a disaster on the part of the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland, and I understand the Secretary of State’s dilemma. This is not easy; something has to be done. However, when Bills are before us in this place, we must consider those people who will be inadvertently disadvantaged. Like most hon. and right hon. Members in this House, I have been lobbied by such people who point out that they invested in good faith and that their small businesses might be brought to the edge because of the change in circumstances over which they have no control.

[Mr Carmichael]

Does that not go to the heart of the matter? The existence of a voluntary buy-out scheme seems an implicit recognition to me that exactly the situation that the hon. Gentleman identifies is one that is likely to occur. That surely means that the legitimate expectations of the recipients of the subsidies are so adversely affected that any legal challenge would be successful.

[Dr Murrison]

I share the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns in that respect. As a lawyer, he will know better than me that there is every prospect of a judicial review in this matter. It would be very surprising, given the propensity of individuals and organisations in Northern Ireland to seek judicial review on a range of things, if that were not the case in this instance. Indeed, that includes their representative organisations. Clearly, the Government need to do everything in their power to ensure that they are protected against such an eventuality, including, I suggest, ensuring proper scrutiny of this Bill, as inadequate scrutiny will surely be cited as a reason for such a review to result in a judgment that is in favour of those bringing the case forward. However, fear of judicial review is one thing, but what we need to do in this place is to ensure that individuals are not disadvantaged. That means scrutinising this Bill properly and trying to ensure that, if possible, those hard cases are avoided.

I understand the rules on state aid and I understand that the buy-out is a mechanism of trying to be generous to those who may be disadvantaged, but within the rules that have been set. I also have concerns because the Department that has advised on this matter—the Department for the Economy—is, of course, implicated in the mess in the first place. I would be worried if the Secretary of State were being overly reliant on the advice that she is receiving from that Department and, in all candour, I suggest that she needs to be extremely careful about that.

Scrutiny—challenging advice—is what we do in this place. It worries me that this controversial Bill on this most toxic of issues is not undergoing such scrutiny. It would seem to me to be entirely sensible for Ministers to ensure that this measure has all possible scrutiny to hedge against the possibility that what it is doing, on advice from the Department for the Economy, is in fact erring in some important respect, as indeed the advice to Ministers has been from that Department in the past.

I also worry—this has been touched on already—about what confidence institutions will have in these sorts of Government schemes in the future, given that they will have assumed that anything backed by or instituted by Government is copper-bottomed, safe and triple A rated. They now find that that is not the case, and that any loan they may have made on the basis of an expectation of, admittedly, fantastically high returns—nevertheless, backed by Government—will in fact result in a return much less than that. Indeed, in the event that some of these businesses go to the wall, these investments may have to be written off.

We have to reflect on the fact that many of these businesses are marginal concerns. Many of the 1,800 businesses are farms, and we know that farming in Northern Ireland is quite different from farming in the rest of the United Kingdom. They tend to be small, marginal farms. The people from those farms who have invested in this scheme may find themselves embarrassed financially by this particular decision. It is quite possible that we might be able to design some sort of scheme that is based around hardship for special cases. There is no recommendation to that effect in this Bill other than the buy-out scheme. I commend the Secretary of State for that, as it is absolutely right to bring such a scheme forward within the constraints of state aid, but there is very little beyond that, and there will be cases of hardship. In the context of Northern Ireland—a small place with lots of small businesses and small farms—would not it be tragic if we found some of those businesses going to the wall as a result of this change in policy?

Of course, this legislation has to go through because if it does not, on 1 April people will be faced with getting nothing, but I gently suggest to Ministers that this is an imperfect Bill that needs further scrutiny and input. I hope very much that my new clause 1 will catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and that we may debate this matter further in Committee. It would be extremely good if we could do so, because the new clause makes some sensible recommendations about how we can ensure that this difficult part of a Bill that is otherwise unobjectionable is given the scrutiny that it deserves so that people can therefore have greater confidence in it.

In general, the Secretary of State is quite right to bring this legislation forward. It is a pity that we have not had the scrutiny of the whole Bill that it really deserves. Given the issues that currently apply at Stormont, we need to be particularly careful in this place that we give matters that relate to Northern Ireland all the scrutiny we can possibly can. This represents something of an essay crisis that was absolutely avoidable had we brought the measures forward in a more timely manner and decoupled these two very different elements of a particularly unusual Bill.