Oral Answers to Questions

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

The staff at DE&S at Abbey Wood perform an extraordinary range of functions and play a vital part in this new whole-force concept. It is about how the armed forces work together, regulars and reserves, with civilian employees of the Ministry of Defence—whom I am happy to put on the record in the House today are not pen-pushers, as some parts of our media would have us believe, but vital components of our defence infrastructure.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is ever the optimist, but he will know that staff in DE&S and industry need certainty, and nothing in the changes to DE&S fits that description. His Department still has not confirmed the arrangements to bring the managed service providers into the business. He talked about the flexibilities and freedoms being broad—they are not in the public domain yet, and April is almost upon us. Is he not cutting it just a little fine?

[Mr Hammond]

No. The contract notices for the procurement of the managed service providers will be published shortly. We are finalising the terms of the memorandum of understanding between the Treasury and the MOD, but the broad parameters have been agreed. The freedoms will be very broad, but there will be some constraints, as I hope the hon. Lady would expect. There will be an overall envelope of resources for operating costs, which will be subject to a downward trajectory over time, representing efficiency. Within that envelope, there will be very broad freedom to tailor pay and conditions to the requirements of the marketplace.

International Military Sales Ltd

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Dunne]

My hon. Friend pre-empts the conclusions to my remarks, but I can confirm that we anticipate a resolution being possible, ideally without recourse to the High Court action in June. We would be happy to see the parties engage to reach a settlement on the outstanding issues before it gets to court. We think that can be done irrespective of the sanctions regime. Once a settlement has been reached to agree a final amount, the payment of that amount becomes a matter for the prevailing sanctions regime in place at that time. I agree that those are separate issues, but the ultimate payment cannot be made while the sanctions regime is in place.

I want to mention a couple of other factors that the House needs to be aware of. All the negotiations that have taken place on this matter have been conducted by employees of IMS on a confidential basis, in turn routinely channelled through legal representatives. Also, given the title of this debate, I should like to clarify the relationship between the Ministry of Defence and IMS. IMS is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Ministry of Defence; all but one of its 20 million shares are held by the Secretary of State for Defence and the other single share is held by the Treasury Solicitor. It is governed by the Companies Act, with accounts filed in Companies House. The company formally ceased trading in 2010 and now exists purely to resolve the disputes that I have already touched on.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

rose—

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

I am sorry, Ms Seabeck, but because you were not here at the beginning of the debate, it is not in order for you to intervene. [Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

This Department, under this Government, is well aware of the benefits of prompt payment and the importance of cash flow to SMEs. That is why not only are we paying our suppliers on time, we are also encouraging them to pay their subcontractors within 30 days of receipt of a valid invoice.

When this issue was raised in November I inadvertently misled the House and I would like to put the record straight. I informed the House that the Ministry of Defence had incurred a single late-payment penalty on only one invoice out of some 4 million. It has now come to my attention that in fact we paid almost 5 million invoices last year—a penalty payment rate of 0.00002%.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

It would be churlish of Labour Members not to acknowledge the good work that MOD officials in particular have been doing, not least because they are protecting a supply chain that often produces extremely specialist products. What discussions is the Minister having with small and medium-sized businesses that may be affected by the reported 20% efficiency savings sought in the support contracts about the way that prime contractors may pass that 20% down the line to protect their own losses? Getting paid on time is one thing, but losing one’s business is another.

[Mr Dunne]

I am glad the hon. Lady asked me to comment on that. We are engaged across the supply chain in seeking to extract maximum efficiencies for the taxpayer from MOD procurement. I am engaged in SME conferences with the defence industry right across the country. Indeed, I intend to come to Plymouth in the not-too-distant future, and the hon. Lady may like to join me.

Points of Order

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Thursday 23rd January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the Secretary of State for his helpful provision of information.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier today, I asked a flooding-related question of the Leader of the House. My husband has a direct interest in and is on the register of the Fire Protection Association, which is a not-for-profit organisation. As the fire service is the common thread there, it is probably appropriate that I make a reference to an indirect interest.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

It is indeed appropriate, and I thank the hon. Lady for setting the record straight so quickly.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

My hon. Friend is quite right. This Government are getting helicopter capability upgraded and in service, in stark contrast to the Labour Government, who left eight Chinook helicopters languishing in hangars for years.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the register.

We know that the UK has strength and depth across helicopter design and development—I have visited AgustaWestland and spoken to other manufacturers—but we need support for the future development of both rotary and fixed wing. In the light of recent reports that the next generation of fighter aircraft may have to be bought specifically from the US or Asia, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that we not only protect the skills in the UK but meet our future defence needs?

[Mr Dunne]

I am intrigued that the hon. Lady is seeking to divert the question to fixed wing from rotary wing. We have a clear strategy to replace fixed-wing and helicopter capability over the next period. On the joint strike fighter, a 15% share of that global programme is being manufactured here in the UK through the BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce supply chains.

Royal Navy Ships

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Westminster Hall

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I commend the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) for securing the debate and for highlighting a series of pertinent issues and the questions that follow from them. I wholly support his tribute not only to those who serve in the Royal Navy, but to the communities that support them. His article for the Royal United Service Institute, “Leveraging UK Carrier Capability”, has rightly received a lot of attention. It raises some issues and points that I will come back to later.

The hon. Gentleman described the changing world in which we live and set out the argument for a strong Navy to support activity in the littoral environment. That argument was reinforced by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile). The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), with his usual passion for defence issues, put a series of questions to the Minister—I hope that he will be able to answer them—but also, with his great background knowledge, set out the historical challenges faced by successive Governments.

Last week, I was privileged to be at the celebration in Devonport of the centenary of HMS Warspite. Built in and launched from Plymouth, she was the most decorated ship in the Royal Navy. There were people present who had served on her. “From Jutland Hero to Cold War Warrior” was the description given by Iain Ballantyne of Warships magazine. She was one in a long line of ships, cruisers, destroyers, frigates and aircraft carriers built in British shipyards.

Sadly, in the last few weeks, we have had the announcement that shipbuilding in Portsmouth will cease, but around the UK, at smaller shipyards such as Appledore, and on the Clyde, we have centres of excellence where there are skills that we need to protect if we are to be able to continue to build ships, with sovereign capability. We should acknowledge the expertise of all those involved, from the designers to fitters and systems engineers. They are global leaders.

Shipbuilding has historically been an industry that has times of feast and times of famine. As the Government are often the only customer for some of these vessels—that issue was raised in relation to exportability, and I will mention that—there needs to be a more clearly defined defence industrial strategy in this sector as we go forward. Therein lie some of the problems. We are demanding ships that have greater longevity and need less servicing—in the same way as we do for our cars—but we also want value for money. That does leave gaps in the maintenance drumbeat. That was highlighted by the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and will pose some problems for this Government and future Governments.

We are also looking for vessels to be designed that are slightly more generic, as the hon. Member for New Forest East pointed out, and more exportable. In a sense, it is quite difficult for us to compete in some of these markets when countries such as South Korea are very well able to do some of that. The most recent contract awarded by the Government, which was for the MARS—the military afloat reach and sustainability—project, went to South Korea; it did not go to a British shipyard.

Where do we go next? We have the Type 42 or Sheffield-class destroyers, which are now at the end of their heroic service. The Type 42 is being replaced by a stunning vessel, the Type 45. It has been designed to avoid some of the issues with its predecessors. As has been pointed out, it is top-end, gold-plated, all-singing, all-dancing and much admired by other nations, but they are unlikely to want to buy it and we are unlikely to want to sell it, I suspect, to be honest. We are also looking beyond the Type 23s to the global combat ship, the Type 26, so there are quite exciting times ahead in terms of ship design.

We are looking at a new configuration of our Navy based on fewer ships. I heard what the hon. Member for Bournemouth East said about the design and numbers of Type 26s. I will come back to that later in my speech, if I may.

[Mr Ellwood]

Does the hon. Lady recognise that the number of ships is also important in relation to the career structures of the Royal Navy? There need to be the command postings to ensure that there is that experience. My concern is that that is perhaps being capped. We do need that experience to continue at the top echelons of the Royal Navy.

[Alison Seabeck]

The hon. Gentleman raises a different point, which almost requires a different debate, but it is perfectly valid. It is about how people progress and how we keep that expertise and the interest of people coming in at the lower ranks—how do they go through the system? However, I will say to him that last week I was with the First Sea Lord in Plymouth when he gave a very robust defence of the Navy’s future configuration, with the QE class sitting at its centre. He was very careful, as we would expect, not to specify the number of carriers with which his successors will be working. Given that we are approaching a further SDSR, I feel that he was correct not to make assumptions. We need to understand what our defence and foreign policies need to deliver and what we want them to deliver, and clearly we also need to ensure within that that our shores are fully and properly protected.

However, the First Sea Lord was genuinely excited about the capability that the new carriers—I use the plural with some care, for reasons that I have alluded to—will bring. There is no doubt that their ability to deploy the full spectrum of diplomatic, political and military options, to stand off and deliver hard and soft power, will be a major addition to the fleet and our ability to defend our realm should we need to do so.

The global combat ship adds a further part to the picture. It will be very interesting to watch the design as it develops. It needs to be able to fulfil many roles—it needs to be flexible, to facilitate a full range of operations, to allow deployment of uninhabited or unmanned surface and subsea vessels, towed sonar arrays and inflatables, as well as to have the capacity to take something as large potentially as a Chinook and to be used with unmanned aerial vehicles doing airborne surveillance; it will give them additional range. The new ships will not just be single task-specific but must be designed with flexible capability, and that is what I understand is happening with the Type 26s.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth East was also right to highlight the benefits of modularisation. I am sure that the Minister heard his comments about additional helicopter bays in the new design. The hon. Member for Bournemouth East also suggested a downgrade in design for a proportion of the new Type 26s and was challenged by my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, about the ability of a limited number of full-strength Type 26s, with full capability, to protect carriers if the numbers were reduced. That was a perfectly sensible question, and it will be interesting to see what the Minister says in response.

[Oliver Colvile]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison Seabeck]

Of course I will give way to my constituency neighbour—as long as he is quick!

[Oliver Colvile]

The hon. Lady is making a powerful speech, but one of the things that is incredibly important as well is to ensure that some of the Type 26s will be base-ported in Devonport. I would be grateful if the Minister could answer that as an issue, too.

[Alison Seabeck]

The hon. Gentleman is prescient beyond belief, because my next paragraph says that there of course needs to be a discussion about where the Type 26s are base-ported. Sadly, the hon. Member for Gosport has been called away and is not in her place. That decision needs to be taken on strategic grounds. We need to consider how we protect our skills base and we need to ensure that we do not have all our eggs in one basket. I listened with interest to the hon. Lady, who made a plea for base-porting—all base-porting in effect—to be in Portsmouth. As I have said, that, in my view, is a sentimental, not a strategic, view. We need to protect skills across all our bases. Clearly, I have a strong view about Plymouth and ensuring that we have a drumbeat that works for our work force as well.

Of course, the new vessel will be designed with stealth and unobservability in mind and will need to be acoustically quiet. It will be interesting to see whether she resembles in any way the futuristically designed Sea Shadow or USS Zumwalt. The latter has an outline that is not too dissimilar from the very early iron-clad battleships, so this is quite an exciting time in ship design. I am sure that those involved are extremely stimulated by the challenge that the Type 26 offers.

Equally, the launch of the new QE class will be a milestone in naval history. That programme has been through the wringer in terms of procurement, under the last Government and certainly under this one. We do need to know, as the hon. Member for Bournemouth East pointed out, whether there is an intention to mothball the second boat and perhaps keep HMS Ocean going for longer. What is Ocean’s future? Plymouthians will certainly have a view about that and would welcome an answer.

On procurement, we do need to do much better. I put my hands up, in terms of some of the problems that we had under the last Government, on this. We need to be clearer through the SDSR about our future needs—the type of wars we need and want to fight, as well as how those demands play into our industrial strategy and industrial base. That said, we also have to have a vehicle that can deliver our new ships on time and on budget. Two weeks ago, we saw the collapse of one of the two remaining consortiums bidding for the GoCo model for future procurement, which was bad news for the Government. It is difficult to see how the Government can continue to pursue that option when their own report stated that the competition would still be possible with two bidders, but that a further withdrawal should initiate a formal reconsideration of whether a GoCo was viable.

The Minister needs to make his mind up, and fast, ideally before the Defence Reform Bill is considered in the other place. What is it to be? Will it be new ships and weapons systems procured through a GoCo, or will it be a DE&S-plus model that oversees the delivery of the Type 26 and the successor programme?

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

I think that my hon. Friend is referring to facilities management contracts which are being placed on a regional basis. The contractors will of course undertake to use SMEs in their supply chain, but it will be up to them to decide where they place their contracts, so I cannot give my hon. Friend any specific reassurance relating to how many of the subcontracts will go to Staffordshire companies.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

Although reassuring in many respects and full of detail, the Minister’s response will not give much comfort to SMEs that hold subcontracts with Serco and are awaiting the outcome of the Cabinet Office review, which I assume has been further delayed following this afternoon’s announcement by the Serious Fraud Office. This matter is of serious concern to, for instance, those involved in the consortiums that are bidding for the GoCo. When does the Minister expect a firm decision from his colleagues on whether the MOD can let further contracts to Serco?

[Mr Dunne]

As the hon. Lady said, there has been an announcement following the Serious Fraud Office inquiry into two contractors, which was first highlighted by the Ministry of Justice in its announcement of 26 September. I cannot give her any information about when the SFO will complete its inquiries, and she would not expect me to do so. Until that has happened, we shall not be in a position to make any comment on Serco itself.

Business Services Association

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2013 Ministerial Corrections

[Alison Seabeck]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what occasions (a) he, (b) Ministers and (c) officials in his Department have met representatives of the Business Services Association.

[Official Report, 18 July 2013, Vol. 566, c. 952W.]

Letter of correction from Andrew Murrison:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on 18 July 2013.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Dr Murrison]

We have no records of any meetings between the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), or Ministers and representatives of the Business Services Association.

We are not aware of any officials meeting with representatives of the Business Services Association but a definitive answer could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

The correct answer should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

As I have just said to the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), until we receive the bids for the GoCo option we will not know either the costs of implementing that option or the benefits the MOD will receive. The final value-for-money case can be completed only once that information is available to us.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

Proposals for DE&S include greater involvement of the private sector, as we know. We also know that a very large number of private companies already contribute significantly to MOD projects. However, in the light of the very recent public failures and the fact that the GoCo tender process is under way, will the Minister tell the House what discussions there have been across Government and with the Justice Secretary specifically about companies that have been found to overcharge, or worse, and their ability to do business with the Government and MOD in the future?

[Mr Dunne]

I can confirm to the hon. Lady that a review across Government is being undertaken into the competition currently being managed by the MOD. We expect it to report relatively soon. On the question of the company that she did not mention specifically but referred to as having difficulties with the Ministry of Justice, we are aware of those discussions. The company is a member of one of the consortia and it will be up to the consortium to decide whether it is appropriate, in the light of the outcome of the review, for that company to remain in it or not. It will be up to the consortium to replace it, if it wishes, with another.

Defence Reform Bill

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

This has been a wide-ranging, interesting and thoughtful debate that has raised a series of concerns, including the basic one of whether we should go down the GoCo route. Many speakers raised the issue of intellectual property, particularly commercial confidentiality and our relationships with partners and other nations. That was vocalised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who has established herself in this place as a bit of a defence expert. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) mentioned the need to ensure that if foreign companies or employees are to be included, the protections around IP and commercial confidentiality are not insubstantial. Despite assurances from a former Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who is back in his place, that will require further exploration in Committee.

The hon. Member for Canterbury also spoke with great knowledge about the reserve force. I hope he will bring that experience to bear in Committee, because clearly this is something that many hon. Members would like to debate further. There are issues to do with the recruitment of reservists, the policy of cutting the Army, particularly before we have a clear idea of where recruitment to the reserves will come from, and the protections for those signing up.

I thank the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), for his contribution, which brought his wisdom and knowledge to bear, and for his many questions. He flagged up the risk Ministers have taken, going, as it were, where no one has gone before, and asked where the risk would sit. Will it sit with the Secretary of State, the GoCo or the taxpayer? He also expressed concerns about time slippages and the lack of a plan B for the reserve force.

My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) raised several questions about the bigger picture and concerns about the totality of the reforms. He asked if control would be pushed too far away to be meaningful. I think the whole House listened with great sympathy to his comments about the role of the emergency services during the tragic events in Brecon. I am sure the Minister will respond at length on that.

We also heard from the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). I shall not be drawn into a debate on the nuclear deterrent or whether the Trident review is half-baked.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Not even half-baked.

[Alison Seabeck]

Yes, perhaps not even half-baked.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham made some valuable points about the GoCo, its complexity and the treatment of reservists, and he dallied tantalisingly with European legislation—very dangerous territory in this place.

We also heard from the gallant tail-end Charlie, the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), who was frankly lucky not to be shot down by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). The hon. Gentleman had a very selective memory of the projects he discussed, which distracted from his important opening point about flagging up some of the problems that the Gray review and this Bill seek to correct.

[Mr Ellwood]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Alison Seabeck]

No, I will not; I will carry on, if the hon. Gentleman will bear with me. He has had more than his time to make the points he wanted to make. Perhaps he will be on the Committee and we can discuss the issue further.

In opening the debate, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) talked about the background to the need for change and the importance of not jeopardising the ability of our defence industries to deliver world-class equipment to our front-line forces. We have to say loudly and clearly that, ultimately, we have to get this right if we are serious about giving our soldiers, sailors and airmen and women the kit and support they need when carrying out their role of protecting our nation. We cannot cut corners; we need to sharpen up our act. The question is therefore this: does this proposal cut the mustard?

Procurement and the problems associated with it are issues not just for the public sector but for the private sector. As we have seen, getting large projects delivered on time and to budget is a problem not just for the Ministry of Defence but for companies outside. Wembley stadium is an example. It is neither easy nor straightforward to procure for large projects and contracts, which is why we on the Labour Benches have been interested to see the results brought forward by the Chief of Defence Matériel, based on work started under the last Labour Government. The Government will also need to convince Members of this House, the Public Accounts Committee and those outside that they are capable of negotiating and supervising a contract that will be one of the most complex undertaken, given past history—a point touched on by the former Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire. I would add that anything that this House decides must not risk destabilising our defence industrial sector, our prime contractors or their supply chain—which is made up of innovative and high-quality small and medium-sized enterprises—in a way that might reduce our ability to deliver in the UK the projects that are vital to this nation’s security.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) talked about the focus on price rather than value. He was concerned about the arbitrary nine-year contracts and the potential instability and uncertainty. He also intimated that there was a need for a wider defence industrial strategy.

The much respected former Minister the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire waxed nostalgically lyrical about the Bill. He also made the point, in a non-partisan way, that our armed forces are currently well equipped. His observations on the single source regulations office were acute, and he is correct that the weighty impact assessment is an interesting and valuable document. I am sure that the Minister has noted his remarks about the potential exemptions of foreign companies—as well as the concerns others have raised—and the need for a level playing field. I thank the former Minister for his gracious acknowledgement that whatever the party political differences, we have a shared interest in getting the best possible legislation through this House. Scrutiny and engagement from Her Majesty’s Opposition are part of that process.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife for delivering a speech that had great depth and was very probing of all parts of the Bill. He has been assiduous in his preparation, and I hope he will want to serve on the Committee. He also asked legitimate questions about the Department’s finances and the need to avoid a revolving-door culture. Again, that is something on which we might want to seek reassurances in Committee.

The jury is still very much out on whether the GoCo approach in part 1 of the Bill is a panacea. The points made by many right hon. and hon. Members bear out some of those anxieties. It is vital that the Committee set up to scrutinise the Bill does so with great care and attention to detail, because the devil is always in the detail and this is a very techie—if I may use that term —piece of legislation. It is in no one’s interest—that of the Government, the Opposition, business or the work force—for us to rush the Bill through or simply assume that it must be better than the status quo or DE&S-plus.

We are still not clear about the view of our key allies and partners, especially the USA, towards these proposals. On the other side of the channel, too, the French are looking at them with interest—and, I suspect, with some concern. Indeed, the impact assessment highlights the fact that one of the key risks associated with the Bill is that our international partners might not fully accept the proposals. The MOD itself has acknowledged that although the Minister has received assurances from the Americans, rumours still abound, so they will need to be put down firmly in Committee with some evidence to back up the assertions made. As we know, the Americans have set up a taskforce to follow the UK’s proposals.

My hon. Friends and I will want to be convinced—I am sure that the Treasury will need convincing, too—that this is the best option. We will also need convincing—in the light of major concerns about outsourcing, particularly to G4S, and the history of failures that we have seen—that this model is significantly different, that the safeguards in place are robust and that the taxpayer will not be at risk of having to pick up the pieces. We all witnessed armed service personnel stepping up to the plate when G4S failed in its Olympic delivery. Now we have further horror stories to add, so what protections will there be to ensure that it does not happen again?

Members in the other place will look carefully at the way in which the discussion moves through Committee and, given the wealth of expertise—former permanent secretaries, former Secretaries of State for Defence and former heads of the armed services—I have no doubt that the Bill will be given an extremely thorough and testing passage.

We broadly support the proposals to create an SSRO and, specifically, to replace the yellow book, designed to bring rigour to the process and to drive cost savings. However, we will want to probe a number of issues, including the level of power that the Secretary of State will hold over this “independent” body. My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool voiced concerns about specific clauses and exports in this regard.

Part 3 is, of course, about our reserve forces, and many Members have spoken to the four relevant clauses. We support an enhanced role for the reserves, which have historically made a significant contribution to the armed forces and UK security. Tragically, some have paid the ultimate sacrifice. Our thoughts are with the family and friends of the two young men who lost their lives this week. I would like to endorse the comments of the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), who spoke with such good sense about the need to avoid speculation about what happened in the Brecon Beacons and made thoughtful comments about how to expand our reserve force.

We are concerned that the reserves are being used to regain capabilities lost through the cuts made to our regular forces, which have gone above and beyond those outlined in the strategic defence and security review. We are concerned that the cart has been put before the horse, and we are concerned, too, about recruitment and retention levels and whether we can reach the level cited by the Government. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) for bringing to this debate his relatively recent but clearly quite deep expertise on the issue of reservists.

We have concerns about whether employment patterns will be compatible enough to allow for prolonged deployment, which could become more frequent under these reforms. That is of particular concern to SMEs’ employees, as my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire made clear in his opening speech.

In winding up, I would like to thank right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to what has been a thorough and thoughtful debate. I hope some of them will volunteer for the Public Bill Committee. In closing, I say simply that we Opposition Members do understand the rationale for all the changes in Bill, but we will need to be satisfied that there are no unanticipated consequences and that, ultimately, the defence of our realm, the industry and people who support it will be at no additional risk in the long term because of a failure fully and openly to scrutinise the measures that are being brought forward.