Universal Credit and Welfare Reform

Alison Seabeck Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

I am afraid that that is absolutely right. That is the message that is coming back from local authorities all over the country. In fact, the Local Government Association told the Select Committee on Friday that there is

“a real risk that the central Government universal credit IT systems will not be ready on time”.

That was part of an array of evidence submitted about the mounting risks. The CBI said that the

“tight delivery timetable…is a risk to business”.

Citizens Advice said that universal credit

“risks causing difficulties to the 8.5 million people who have never used the internet”.

The Chartered Institute of Taxation said that for many people

“The proposed procedures for self-employed claimants…will be impossible to comply with.”

Shelter has said:

“Social landlords and their lenders have voiced considerable concern at the implications of direct payments for social tenants”.

The Association of Directors of Adult Social Services says that the abolition of severe disability premium is an

“apparent contradiction of the Government’s stated aim to protect the most vulnerable.”

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

On direct payments to landlords, last night I met representatives of south-west housing associations, and to a person they all expressed serious concerns about the implications for them, their lenders and their loan books.

[Mr Byrne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Once arrears build up, it becomes far more difficult for social landlords to raise the money they need to build much-needed social housing. These are very serious risks.

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[Mr Duncan Smith]

The whole idea behind the universal credit is that it allows us not to cherry-pick child care. That is, we will support child care up the various hours, because at the moment the system is set so that people get it only at certain points. Universal credit allows us to do that, and we are putting another £300 million behind that. That is a major positive. Universal credit is also a major positive for lone parents seeking work, because of the increased ability of the first earner back into work to receive that money. That should benefit them enormously.

Let me try to address one other point that was made and then conclude. The Opposition have expressed some concerns about the universal credit and HMRC’s real-time information project, but the scheme will deliver a net reduction of £300 million in administrative burdens on employers. That is important, because the project will help enormously with the way we flow information, together with HMRC—and I stress “together”. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill has made the point about that, both today and to me in the past, but I say to him simply: I am not letting this one go, as with some other Departments. We are locked into this. In fact, we have now placed one of the DWP people in the team working on real time information, which will report at the same time as the others. We believe that we are making good progress on getting RTI moving in the right direction.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what was to be done with the 20,000 housing benefit staff. We are dealing with this matter sensitively. We recognise that staff across the country will have concerns about the impact of the new benefit, which is why we are consulting local government right now. Although housing benefit will be absorbed into universal credit, we must not forget that that will not happen overnight. I am sure that any impact on job roles will be counterbalanced by, for example, changes to localised council tax benefit, which will require a number of staff. The administration of the social fund is also being moved down to local authorities, and there will be other work, too. This is a matter for us to discuss with the councils, but it can be dealt with sensitively. I do not think that we should get too concerned about it, but we need to deal with it. I think that there is scope for all of them.

I was asked earlier about the business case. We are constantly reshaping and remodelling it, and I do not think that we need to publish it. As I said to the right hon. Members for Birmingham, Hodge Hill and for East Ham, I am happy to discuss any issues surrounding it at any time. They are always invited in; it is always good to have a drink with them and discuss these matters.

[Alison Seabeck]

In Plymouth, we have more than 80% broadband coverage, but we do not have that level of broadband connection. A lot of my constituents are very poor and do not have internet access. They use their mobile phones to access the internet, but they cannot use them for downloading documents. There is therefore likely to be a surge of people going into jobcentres and elsewhere seeking support. My constituency also has quite a high level of illiteracy. Does the Secretary of State intend to bolster the number of staff in jobcentres to deal with that potential early surge, perhaps using some of the staff in housing benefit departments who could lose their jobs?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady obviously would not expect me to make a commitment on that now. I can tell her what we are doing, however. I have visited a large number of jobcentres and talked to the managers and staff about what will happen when we move over to the new process. A number of jobcentres are already trialling ways of speeding up the online process of moving people to the new system. We are going to install computers and have staff ready to advise people. When they come in to make their claim, they will be shown to a computer, with a telephone or an adviser, and helped through the process. So, if they cannot do it at home, they should at least be able to do it at a jobcentre, with guidance and help.

I am also talking to my colleagues at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, because we really need to get broadband to all areas, and we need to do it pretty fast. I accept that that is a matter for the Government. We are not just telling people that they have to do this, and then forgetting about them. We are going to ensure that those who have no internet access have another way to complete the process. We are also looking at different ways of using mobile telephones for making certain types of claim. There is a whole process taking place, and nothing is being left to chance. If the hon. Lady has any ideas, we would be pleased to hear them. I am sure that they will be brilliant.

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[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

This is a timely debate although I would say that, as I chair the Select Committee that happens to be undertaking an inquiry into the implementation of universal credit. I hope that today’s debate and the findings that my Committee will eventually publish—I cannot say exactly what they will be in advance—will help to highlight important issues to the Secretary of State and his Ministers, such as the questions that still need answers, the decisions that still have to be taken and the unintended consequences. I know that witnesses have already presented us with a number of such consequences in the evidence we have taken. Some groups will be worse off under universal credit and some will lose out. [Interruption.] I hope that the Secretary of State is listening, as he is due to appear before the Select Committee on Monday; he has until then to find out all the answers.

We know that major change costs money, not just in administration and set-up costs: the Government have said that there will be cash protection so that there will be no cash losers at the point of transition from existing benefits into universal credit. Those transitional arrangements will then be frozen until the universal credit level is reached or the cash protection will be lost when there is a change of circumstances.

The Government are already cutting large areas of support that people receive—in-work credits next year, for example, while housing benefit is already being reformed—and there are more changes to come. Child care tax credit is being reduced, while the rules for working tax credit for couples have changed so that people have to be in work for more than 25 hours in order to qualify. Under the new universal credit, certain things will not exist, particularly various premiums received by many disabled people and their carers. There probably will be fewer cash losers than originally anticipated as people move on to universal credit, because quite a number of people will already have lost their benefits or have seen a reduction in their income. That is probably good for the Government in respect of transitional protection because it will cost them less, but it is potentially bad for the claimant who is going to have to live on less money.

This is a huge subject, so let me concentrate my remarks on the most vulnerable. Even by the Government’s own analysis, some people will not be able to manage the online claims system or, indeed, the monthly payments. The Government use the term “digital by default”, but it will be impossible for many people, perhaps because of their IT skills or indeed as a result of the cost of accessing the equipment. I was glad to hear the Secretary of State say that there would be terminals in Jobcentre Plus centres, as that has not come out to date in the evidence we have taken; let us hear the announcement on Monday.

The Government say that most people will manage the process or will soon adapt to it. It is great if they do, because if the majority are not able to manage the system as it has been designed, it would be a catastrophe. It would also be a catastrophe if the IT did not work. In that case, everyone claiming universal credit, including those who are computer literate and can manage the system, will be in deep trouble. This is not a single benefit such as tax credits. Then, when the IT went wrong or did not work properly in the first place, it meant only a part of the family’s income not being paid. Families were not left destitute, as they had other income to fall back on until the problem was sorted out or until interim payments were put in place. That cost an absolute fortune at the time. If the IT does not work for universal credit, families will receive no money. They will not be able to pay their rent, pay any bills or buy food. As is inevitable in such circumstances, it will take time for the arrangements to be put in place, and they may become destitute before that happens.

[Alison Seabeck]

Given the potential for arrears and non-payment of bills, there may be serious problems with credit ratings, which would have huge knock-on effects for many people.

[Dame Anne Begg]

We should also bear in mind the debt that those people will incur in the meantime, and the fact that, even when the money has been paid, it will be difficult for them to get back on to an even keel.

I know that the Government will not want to plan for failure, but, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—who has now left the Chamber—they need to have a contingency plan in case the worst happens, or, indeed, the system proves to be susceptible to large-scale fraud. I hope that the worst does not happen, but, given the Government’s record of IT failures, the possibility must have crossed Ministers’ minds. It is not enough to say that the tax credit IT disaster was the Treasury’s fault, as the Treasury is involved in universal credit with real-time information, which is not being developed on the “agile” system by which the Secretary of State sets so much store.

I must admit that—apart from the disastrous Child Support Agency—the DWP has a better reputation than most for delivering new IT systems, although that is not saying much. However, all its previous systems have been delivered over a much longer time scale, with much more testing, than will be the case with universal credit.

The Government say that they have learnt from the experience of the tax credit system that there will not be a “big bang”, because not everyone will come into the system on day one. However, for individual families there will be a big bang, because all their benefit, or income, will be put at risk if anything does go wrong.

Let me return to the subject of those who will not be able to manage the new system. Let us take the best-case scenario that the Government have painted today, and assume that the IT system works perfectly, with no hitches; that most people adapt to the monthly payments; that the welfare rights people and all the other organisations are given lots of money by the Government, are well trained and provide plenty of advice; and that 80% of people—or even 90%, but the Government are saying 80%—are able to access the online form and make their applications digitally. Even if all that works, there will still be people who will not manage. The success or otherwise of universal credit will depend on how well they are catered for, even if the proportion is as low as 10% or 20%. If it is only 10%, that still represents 770,000 households. More than 1 million people will probably struggle with the system, and on the basis of the Government’s own figures the number could be more than 2 million, so I hope that the Government are paying a great deal of attention to that group of people.