Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to meet any hon. Member to discuss such matters. I am also grateful for the confirmation that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has joined the rest of the ministerial team on a bike: we are very committed to cycling in the Department.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Cyclists and drivers in Wirral are infuriated by the quality of our roads and the number of potholes we have. The council has suffered ferocious cuts from the Government, so can the Minister tell me what conversations he has had with leaders of local authorities about how they can ensure that our roads are of a decent standard, given the Chancellor’s austerity for local government?

[Norman Baker]

With respect, the hon. Lady might be misinformed about the funding, because the Government will spend more in this five-year period than the previous Government did on highway maintenance, with a greater allocation of money from the Department for Transport than happened under Labour. There will be a significant increase in the period from 2015-16 through the next Parliament. Coupled with the highway maintenance efficiency programme I mentioned a moment ago, that gives local authorities both the money and the tools to do the job properly. I suggest that she directs her remarks to her local authority.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

In theory, quality contracts and quality partnerships should make integrated ticketing—and, therefore, smartcard ticketing—easier to manage. We are still not seeing enough smartcard use outside London—specifically in Merseyside, where the project is long overdue. Will the Minister say specifically what he and his Department have done to empower integrated transport authorities to get smartcards available for passengers?

[Norman Baker]

As a matter of fact, we have provided significant sums of money to ITAs to take forward smart ticketing. We are also taking forward multi-operator ticketing guidance, in accordance with the Competition Commission’s recommendations, and I have made it plain to bus companies that we want to see progress on that matter. Only this week, I held a two-hour meeting with key operators in the bus and train world to talk about smart ticketing and to make sure we are making progress, which indeed we are, in both modes of transport.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

Yes, I do. HS2 Ltd’s policy is to reply substantively to all letters from Members within 20 working days. It is unfortunate that my hon. Friend did not receive a reply to his letter. I have been informed by HS2 Ltd that a response and an apology have now been issued and that its procedures for handling correspondence with hon. Members have been looked at again to ensure that this sort of problem does not arise.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

An investigation by the Liverpool Echo last month discovered that the cost of catching a bus in Merseyside has risen by two and a half times the rate of inflation since privatisation under the Thatcher Government. The cost of public transport in Merseyside is a barrier to employment and makes the labour market less flexible. Will the Minister congratulate the Echo on its work and tell us what he proposes to do about it?

[Norman Baker]

Sadly, bus fares have been rising above inflation for many decades, including throughout the Labour Government, from 1997 to 2010, although some of these bus fares are determined locally by support from local authorities, so the picture varies across the country. The good news, however, is that overall bus mileage is holding up. In fact, last year saw a record 4.7 billion bus journeys, the highest since deregulation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Norman Baker]

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that that remains a priority for the Department. We are working closely with the relevant parties to which he refers with a view to reaching completion as soon as possible.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Will the Minister clarify how much funding for new stations has been made available over recent years in the south-east of England compared with the north-west of England, and will he support increased investment in new stations, specifically in Merseyside and, even more specifically, along the Wrexham to Bidston line that passes through my constituency?

[Norman Baker]

I think the hon. Lady should be very pleased with the level of transport investment that the Government has committed to, particularly rail investment. In the north-west area, for example, the northern hub is being funded in its entirety. We are also seeing investment in new and reopened lines such as the Oxford-Bedford line, in redoubled lines such as the Swindon-Kemble line, and in new stations across the country—including in Teesside, Warwickshire, west Yorkshire and Coventry—six of which have already been opened. We have seen investment right across England that will proceed right through Network Rail’s current plan, and I hope that she will welcome that.

High Speed Rail

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

The truth is that my hon. Friend is looking forward to the benefits that will come from this. Part of the reason for making the announcements now is that once we have the route signed off—it is out for consultation—we can look at getting the right connections into these stations in the longer term, for the benefit of all parts of the United Kingdom.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

High Speed 2 is incredibly important for all of Merseyside and our city region’s development. Further to the answers that the Secretary of State has given already on connectivity, will he confirm that the northern hub should not be the end of better inter-city rail services in the north of England, but the start and that we need to start planning for better now?

[Mr McLoughlin]

Yes. I was in Liverpool and met the mayor a few weeks ago. It was substantially easier to get from London to Liverpool than it was to get from Liverpool back to Derby.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Hammond]

The technology for driverless cars is, as my hon. Friend says, advancing very quickly. As the Secretary of State just said, our key priority is safety and I want to ensure that those systems are safe and reliable before allowing them on to UK roads. There is of course great potential for UK technology to be at the forefront of these developments and departmental officials are liaising with leading UK researchers in the field.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

T9. In June, the then rail Minister told me that the Government were “making progress on the Thameslink procurement”.—[Official Report, 12 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 67WH.]In August, The Guardian reported that the contract for new trains would be delayed until the autumn, and it is now the autumn. The delivery of new trains for Thameslink frees up electric rolling stock to move north, but any delay puts that in jeopardy. Will the Minister meet me and Merseytravel to guarantee that we will not end up with an electrified line from Manchester to Liverpool but no electric trains?

[Mr Simon Burns]

Yes. As I know the hon. Lady is aware, significant investment is being made in Thameslink—some £6 billion is being invested, £4.5 billion of which is for the infrastructure and £1.5 billion of which is for the rolling stock. I understand her concerns. My Department and I are working to ensure that the rolling stock is ready for the project and I would have the greatest pleasure in meeting the hon. Lady at her convenience.

Rail Fares

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Wednesday 5th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

I look forward to reading the letter that I shall no doubt receive from the hon. Lady, and I will give a considered response then, as I will have had an opportunity to examine the background of these matters.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

I welcome the new Secretary of State to his position. When he is familiarising himself with his new brief, may I ask him to take a look at the Wrexham to Bidston line? I raised that project with his predecessor on a number of occasions, and I think he will find it a fascinating subject.

[Mr McLoughlin]

Members will have plenty of opportunities to question me over the coming months, and after the hon. Lady has no doubt written to me about this line, I will perhaps have a little more to say about it—and I refer her to the very good line between Derby and Matlock.

We are building a modern railway network in Britain —one that plays its full part in connecting our communities, supporting our economy and safeguarding our environment. We are delivering this crucial work against the backdrop of an inherited debt and the most testing economic times for a generation. But investment by investment, upgrade by upgrade, project by project, we are making real and lasting progress. As we do, at the forefront of our thinking and the centre of our plans are the people and businesses that use, depend on and fund this country’s railways.

I am acutely aware of the concerns that passengers have about fares. That is why we are committed to ending above-inflation increases as soon as we can—once savings are achieved and the wider fiscal situation improves. It is also why we continue to keep the regulated caps under review. Every choice we make and every decision we take is about giving passengers the best railways and getting passengers the best deal. That is what the Government intend to do, and we are undertaking that task.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Greatrex]

My hon. Friend makes another important point, which I hope that the Secretary of State will consider as he reads himself into his brief. My experience of getting from airports to stations, particularly when getting a train from Gatwick into London, is that the ticket machines are quite hard to navigate. It is difficult to find the cheaper ticket, which involves travelling on the non-Gatwick Express service. That is just one example that shows that how the ticket machines are set up seems to drive people towards the more expensive fares. I am not sure how that is regulated, but it might be worth considering in the round along with all the other issues.

[Alison McGovern]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that must be considered as part of the Government’s review? The infrequent business user’s train use is limited by such high complexity levels.

[Tom Greatrex]

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. I was heartened to hear the Secretary of State’s comments about considering those issues as part of the review and it is very important that it covers all aspects of the matter. The problem is not just the ticket price but access to the tickets and the issues pointed out by my hon. Friend.

We quite rightly hear a lot about the pressure many people are under and about how their incomes are being squeezed. If rail fares become prohibitive at such a time, either for people trying to get to work or for business users, that will mean that people use forms of transport that do more damage to the environment and that restrict aviation capacity. It is very important that the Government carefully consider the levels at which fares can be increased, because although I do not disagree with the Secretary of State about the need for investment—everybody accepts the need for continued investment in our rail services—if the burden is placed too heavily on passengers during this time of economic difficulty, people will be driven away from using the railways. Nobody wants to see that.

I sincerely hope that the Government will consider this straightforward and fairly simple motion. It is about trying to help people at this particularly difficult time and trying to avoid other policy objectives not being met because the fares are too expensive. I know that the Secretary of State’s predecessor said last summer that she was talking to the Chancellor and trying to find a way to limit fares further. It became clear over a relatively short time that some of the Chancellor’s other decisions in the last Budget were not viable or sensible and it would do the Government a lot of good if they reconsidered the decision on fares, which is in danger of having a severe adverse impact on many people across the UK.

[Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), who delivered a sensible speech and made some very sensible points. I had sympathy with many of them. While we are in a congratulatory mood, I also congratulate the Secretary of State. He is held in very high regard and with great affection in the House and people will be delighted to see him emerge from the Whips Office into slightly greater glory in the months to come. I hope that he might be kind enough to pass on my good wishes to his Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), who is no longer in his place. They make a good team. I am not sure who will look after whom, but we will see as the months unfold. Finally, will the Secretary of State pass on my good wishes to his predecessor, who was especially kind to Northampton? As he will know, she helped to provide the money for a much-needed new station and we remain deeply appreciative.

The debate is a missed opportunity. I understand and have some sympathy with the need for more regulated rail fares. I understand the need to see such regulation as an attempt to put a brake on the sizeable increase in rail fares that started during the Opposition’s period in government and, sadly, continues under this Government, but the truth is that trying to ban train operators from increasing fares beyond a certain point is an unnecessary diversion. The real issue is why the rail industry has not done more to get to grips with cost. Under the previous Government and so far under this Government, it seems to have been accepted that the taxpayer or consumer should finance the rail sector when no attempt has been made to increase efficiency and production and to lower costs. Every business in this country has had to deal with such challenges over the past five years, many of them to great effect, yet the rail industry seems not to be a part of that process.

We have one of the most expensive rail systems in Europe. Why is the rail sector the only privatised sector not to have made progress with cost reduction since its inception as a privatised operation?

[Alison McGovern]

The hon. Gentleman said that we have one of the most expensive rail systems in Europe. Is he talking about the cost per journey? We have much more frequent and dense services than other countries in Europe, but did he take that into account?

[Mr Binley]

I thank the hon. Lady for that question. I am referring to the McNulty report, which her party’s Government put into effect. McNulty made it quite clear that the British rail sector was 28% more expensive than like-for-like rail sectors throughout Europe. If our costs are that high, I hope that the hon. Lady will be as concerned as I am. The alternative is to keep pulling money out of the pockets of the taxpayer or consumer and I want a more productive and efficient rail industry—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to what has been an informative debate so far. As a precursor to the few brief points I wish to make, I feel that I should make an admission: I come from a long line of railway people, beginning with my great grandfather and including me, as I have previously worked in the rail industry. I make this confession—that my great grandfather, grandfather and father all worked in the rail industry—not to own up to some kind of strange rail geekery, but rather to explain that I understand some of the practicalities of our rail system and know that changes that seem obvious from the outside can actually be quite complicated and difficult to deliver.

Not least among those considerations is the important fact that the UK rail system was the first in the world. We invented railways, and the impact of that is still with us. The system that we have was designed many years ago, and that brings with it some of the costs. We cannot easily make a like-for-like comparison between our system and those of France or Germany; I am afraid that the UK rail system is just different. We must of course look at ways of reducing costs, but it is not all that straightforward.

[Mr Binley]

Surely the hon. Lady is not rejecting what McNulty said. Surely she accepts the report, authorised by her Front Benchers, which makes a massive contribution to the debate. I hope she does.

[Alison McGovern]

I rarely reject out of hand anybody’s contribution to a debate on so important a subject as the rail industry. I merely make these points as a precursor to what I am about to say. I always feel that we should be cautious in what we say, because I have seen at first hand the complexity of some of the problems we face in running efficiently the kind of extensive rail system we have in Britain.

I want to speak about two things: first, the question of the average fare rise across the fares basket and the restrictions on rises; and secondly, some of the other ticketing issues that rail industry consumers face and what the Government’s ticketing review could consider in order to assist consumers. On the question of the average fare rise versus the cost to travellers of individual fare rises, I have a problem with the Government’s apparent position. The Secretary of State spoke at length only a moment ago about the importance of allowing train companies to raise fares in a way that allows them to maximise yield, but the problem is that that potentially allows significant unfairness. Those whose travel is absolutely necessary for their employment face potentially significant rises, whereas those who have a choice about how they travel are less likely to face those rises. To use an economist’s term, those with an inelastic demand curve—I apologise for my use of jargon, but it may be helpful—are stuck paying ever higher season ticket prices, while those who make up the elastic part of demand can pick and choose, so train companies maximise those yields on what tend to be leisure fares, for journeys that people can choose whether to make. That is the point that many Members across the House are making in different ways.

The problem with allowing average fare rises is that people who cannot choose whether or not to travel by train because they have no practical alternative can be faced with steep rises. The flexibility to do that cannot be allowed. In my view it is not fair. Of course, that is a decision that the Government must make based on the facts. Back in 2009 the then Transport Secretary took a decision, and I support it, because it was about ensuring not only that the train companies were able to do the business they had been contracted to do, but that there was a level of fairness for the travelling passenger.

The Government must think hard about this matter. If consumers who have no practical alternative to travelling by rail are faced with steep fare rises year after year, they will think that it is a significant unfairness to them. Members on both sides of the House have made that point. We need to be clear that this is about different groups of passengers and train companies effectively negotiating their way through to maximise benefits, in some cases for them rather than passengers.

In Merseyside we have quite a specific situation. Travel around the Mersey travel network tends to be more reasonable. However, one of the things we are desperately trying to do is increase job opportunities for people in Merseyside who are perhaps a little further afield. Earlier I cheekily mentioned to the Secretary of State my campaign to improve the Wrexham to Bidston line. It is all about helping people to travel from places in the Wirral and the rest of Merseyside across our city region and further afield, to Manchester or north Wales, to find work wherever it may be.

That is the Government’s stated policy, and they tell us they believe in it. However, with rail fares continuing to increase—my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made this point eloquently—those on the lowest incomes will not have an option. They will be unable to take a decision to make what is currently a 90-minute journey from Bebington, Birkenhead, other parts of the Wirral, Southport or the wider Merseyside area to Manchester and other cities, because once they have made that further journey it will be just too expensive. That runs absolutely counter to everything we are trying to achieve to drive up the economic performance of our northern cities. The Government must think carefully about whether their approach to rail fares is not actually against the drive of what they are trying to do across Government.

Secondly, we need to think carefully, perhaps as part of the Government’s ticketing review, about how to ensure that the sale of train tickets and rail travel in general works for the customers, who pay significant amounts. I am particularly interested in how the current set-up harms people working for businesses and organisations who do not use the railways frequently enough to be considered regular or daily users, or even commuters, but do use them frequently enough for there to be a significant impact on their business.

The Government need to pay attention to a couple of aspects. The first is what a peak time is. When I was growing up, it seemed as if we always knew what the peak times were and that they stayed the same year after year. That may be the effect of the rose-tinted glasses of hindsight; perhaps things were different in reality. However, now peak times seem to change all the time.

If a person is travelling on different parts of the network, things can get difficult. For example, if their business, like many businesses in Liverpool and the Merseyside city region area, requires them to go to London one week and Leeds the next, it will be difficult for that person to find out whether the peak times are the same everywhere. The member of staff at Eastham station in my constituency may or may not have in their head the relevant peak times for the ticket.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Having grown up in Liverpool, I know the hon. Lady’s rail line, Wrexham to Bidston, very well; I had family in the area. However, surely people in today’s world just check online—on nationalrail.co.uk or other sites, which will tell them the pricing of tickets for when they want to travel, including for off-peak, super-advance and similar tickets. I am not sure why there is such a complication.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern]

I am sure that the hon. Lady is extremely competent at double-checking peak times and the validity of her tickets when she travels, even if she is in a part of the country that she does not know. However, businesses have told me that they find the situation difficult.

The national rail inquiries website is good, but I am not always sure that it is that clear. The better solution would be to print the peak times on the ticket. Surely, in this day and age, we can set up a digital printer that can print the peak times on restricted tickets. People would then not need to make sure that the 3G was working on their phones so that they could look the information up. If it was on the ticket, that would really help people.

[Jenny Chapman]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I emphasise that not only digitally incompetent people make the mistake. I am on the east coast main line every week, and there is virtually never a journey when somebody in my carriage does not have to pay an excess surcharge because they have made a mistake to do with the peak, off-peak and super off-peak times.

[Alison McGovern]

“Super off-peak”—there’s an expression. What does it mean? I am a regular train user—a train geek, some have said—but I am not clear when a super off-peak ticket would allow me to travel to Darlington or anywhere else.

We need a more common-sense solution. Although Members of Parliament might have smartphones in their pockets and be able to look things up as they go, a huge number of travellers—particularly older ones, who might be seeking the cheapest possible ticket for understandable reasons—would not be so confident, or would be less likely to go online and look the information up easily.

We need the information to be really clear, not least because there are some strange anomalies in the peak and off-peak scenario, especially in respect of my constituency, which is close to the Welsh border. Services going into Wales have a different peak and off-peak arrangement.

Some years ago, there was a great hurrah when we got a reduction in the number of types of tickets. Now there are supposed to be just four types of train tickets, including advance, off-peak and flexible, so that people can be clear. Personally, I do not think that that works. We need another look. We should either reduce the number of types of tickets or increase the ways in which people can be made aware of the validity conditions of their tickets. The complexity is increased because there are so many vendors of tickets—so many different organisations sell train tickets that the ways in which train ticket validity can be communicated are extremely diverse.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making some valid and constructive points about the rail industry. However, the motion that we are debating focuses specifically on the costs to the taxpayer and commuters. Will she get round to talking about the motion rather than about her constructive suggestions for the Department for Transport?

[Alison McGovern]

The costs that passengers face depend on how easily they are able to purchase the most cost-effective ticket for them. Earlier, the Secretary of State said that the whole idea of allowing train companies flexibility was so that they could offer passengers many more lower-price tickets. My point is that lots of people end up paying more because they are confused about the system and have poor access to the information. As my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) mentioned, all those things imply a cost. If a person has the wrong ticket and is surcharged on the train, that is a greater cost to them. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that my comments about the types of tickets are irrelevant, because such issues imply a cost. That is why they matter to people.

[Mr Spencer]

Can the hon. Lady estimate the cost saving that printing the peak times on tickets would make to the taxpayer?

[Alison McGovern]

I am good, Mr Speaker, but not that good. I am afraid that I do not have my calculator with me, but I am sure that the issue is worth looking at.

I return to my final thoughts about what needs to be considered in the ticketing review. There is the issue of split ticketing, which has already been mentioned. Those who travel regularly on the railway have a significant advantage over those who do not because they can work out how to split their tickets and save money. If people do that and it is within the rules, good luck to them. However, the situation is confusing. I believe that we should aspire to get more people on to the railways. If tickets are so expensive that people split their tickets to try to make savings, that should be a lesson that we are pricing people away and that the complexity in the rules disadvantages people who do not travel regularly.

To conclude, we need to think about how we can simplify the system. We need to go much further in thinking about the benefits that could be achieved for the travelling public if we thought about the rail system as a whole network. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) made an extremely valid point about the difficulties of having a Transport for London network right next to a non-TfL part of the network. We need to think about all these things from the perspective of the travelling public rather than that of a complex industry. The rail system will always be complex, but we should make sure that the public-facing part of it is as simple and straightforward as possible.

By and large, we are at risk of curtailing the prospects of employment and economic growth if we do not take seriously the need to make rail fares much more affordable.

Rail Infrastructure (Merseyside)

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Westminster Hall

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

I thank the Speaker for providing me with the opportunity to hold this debate. I am a railwayman’s daughter. I am also a railwayman’s granddaughter and great-granddaughter, and had the opportunity to work for Network Rail for a few years myself.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way so early in her speech and congratulate her on securing the debate. On the subject of fatherhood, is she aware that Merseyrail provides free travel for pensioners travelling from the Merseyside area to Chester, but that pensioners who catch the train at Hooton must pay to travel to Chester?

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. It is always important to speak up for pensioners, especially those related to us. I am sure that people outside this place will take note of his comments.

As I was saying, I come from a long line of railway people. I mention that not to emphasise a lack of imagination in the McGovern family but to say that in this debate, I will be demanding in speaking for the future of rail in Merseyside. However, I do so in the knowledge of how difficult questions of investment can be.

For reasons that I will suggest shortly, public transport should be central to the current national debate about the economic future of our country. This afternoon’s debate focuses on Merseyside and the surrounding areas of north Wales, Cheshire and Lancashire, but my point—that infrastructure planning is at the heart of economic development and poverty alleviation—could be made about many places in our country.

This year, the Secretary of State for Transport will set out the Government’s investment priorities for our rail network for the five-year period from 2014 to 2019. It is a significant opportunity. It will set the agenda for investment and begin thousands of conversations about how we can speed up, increase capacity and provide access to markets for our many citizens who are looking for a job or need access to parts of our economy.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I am pleased to be here as the MP for Wrexham and to support my hon. Friend in her debate. Many big businesses such as Jaguar Land Rover, General Motors in Ellesmere Port and Airbus provide jobs not just across Merseyside but in north Wales. It is important to enable access to those jobs for people who do not have private transport. We need a good public transport network in the region.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He and I have tried to work closely together on these issues, for the reasons that he mentions. People do not respect administrative boundaries when it comes to getting a job. We must ensure that people in residential areas, a lot of whom need work, have access to big businesses such as the ones that he mentioned. I hope that I can suggest exactly how we might do so.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

Hopefully, my hon. Friend will agree that many people separate, isolate or segregate transport as just a means of moving goods or individuals from one place to another. Does she agree that there are also massive economic, health and well-being and social benefits to infrastructure, and that it creates the sorts of job and employment opportunity that she will know are all too needed on Merseyside?

[Alison McGovern]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is quite right. If we consider the body of evidence produced by, for example, the Thameslink and Crossrail projects in London, we find exactly what he suggests. Transport infrastructure underpins economic development, but it also gives access to employment, and to the personal dignity involved, to those who currently do not have it. With that point in mind—

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Alison McGovern]

I will give way once more, before I make some progress.

[Rosie Cooper]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way so early in her speech. Does she agree that for places such as Skelmersdale, the most populous town in my constituency, not to have a rail service in the 21st century places the town and its residents at a massive disadvantage and reflects the desperate need for investment in local rail services? To amplify the comments made so far, communities such as Skelmersdale must have rail services, which will deliver significant regeneration benefits socially, economically and culturally—

[John Robertson (in the Chair)]

Order. Thanks for the speech.

[Alison McGovern]

Thank you, Mr Robertson. I promise not to test your patience any more by taking further interventions. My hon. Friend and I have mentioned Skelmersdale in this Chamber before. She will correct me if I am not right, but I believe that the reduction in rail service happened just before Skelmersdale became a new town. How ironic that such a residential centre should not have a rail link. That must be addressed as well.

[Rosie Cooper]

Absolutely. There will now be significant investment in the new town centre in Skelmersdale. It would be a travesty if that development were to go ahead without some land being reserved for a prospective rail station.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

With all those points in mind, the test that I would set the Government for their priorities is this. First, whatever those priorities are, will they help rebalance the UK economy? Secondly, will those priorities address existing pockets of poverty in the UK? I would be grateful if the Minister addressed those points of principle.

I remind everybody that Merseyside has an important place in rail history. In 1829, Stephenson’s Rocket set a speed record at Rainhill in Merseyside. One year later, the Liverpool and Manchester railway opened as the world’s first steam passenger service. However, wonderful though that history is, it is not enough. We need a fantastic economic future as well. Luckily, that seems to be happening for Merseyside. We have a brilliant, burgeoning visitor economy.

During the recent “Sea Odyssey”, I am told, hotels in the city were at 99% occupancy, against the backdrop of a large increase in the number of hotels. We have a successful visitor economy on our hands. Our port is also growing, and more development is possible through the Wirral Waters schemes and others. What infrastructure does Merseyside require to ensure that economic growth is achieved, and that growth, when it comes, significantly benefits the least well off?

Turning to the specifics, Merseyside’s rail network is very busy already, and it is well used. Especially through the east side of my constituency, services are busy and getting busier by the day. However, a key problem is the existence of what I call railway black holes. That was not always the case. Many parts of Merseyside and the surrounding area suffer from poor connectivity because their railway station was closed or their service reduced many years ago, when it was not clear that railways would be as popular and necessary as they now clearly are. There are public transport gaps across Merseyside. As a result, perhaps unsurprisingly, some of the most disadvantaged communities in our region are in those blackspots. We have already mentioned Skelmersdale and the surrounding area, just across the border in Lancashire. Parts of north Liverpool also suffer. They are important population centres. Parts of the Wirral, such as the Woodchurch estate, which need a railway station within a short distance so that people can get to work do not have that connectivity.

There are some important issues for the Government to consider. The Minister might mention the northern hub. It is important to finish the northern hub in order to get the full benefit. Only through quick links—four trains an hour between Liverpool and Manchester—will we open up the commuting area. We also need to look at the Halton curve, which could provide two routes into Liverpool and help with managing the west coast main line.

Parts of my constituency of Wirral South are very well connected to employment centres in Liverpool and Chester, and onwards to Warrington and Manchester, but other parts are less fortunate. They are served by a railway running from Bidston, on the Wirral, through Heswall, Neston and Deeside to Wrexham in north Wales. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the route has received little or no significant investment for years. The unreliable and infrequent service means that those of my constituents in Heswall who have the choice tend to opt for their cars rather than the train. Members representing constituencies in north Wales tell me that it is also common in Flintshire and Deeside for people to opt automatically for their car rather than the train. Those without access to private transport are then left with either rail services that are not as good as in other places, or slow buses. Electrifying the line, which is fewer than 30 miles in length, would tie it in and provide through services to Liverpool and more frequent trains.

I know that these are difficult times and I understand that even if we were to start planning for further electrification, it would be a long process to find funding over a number of years. During the economic instability of the 1980s, however, the then Government electrified parts of the Merseyside rail network, namely the line through Rock Ferry, on the other side of my constituency. That has underpinned today’s economic development, so investing in rail, even at times like these, really works. Unfortunately, some parts were left out and those areas form today’s gaps, but if it was possible to invest in our rail network in the 1980s, I am sure that it should be possible to do so again today. There are long-term benefits to electrification.

I would like to add, as a slight caveat, that we need rolling stock as well as infrastructure. There will be a cascade of new rolling stock as the Thameslink programme comes online. Will the Minister comment on how that is proceeding? It would be helpful if the rolling stock could make more trains available.

In my test for the Government’s priorities, how will my proposal for extra electrification help? First, it must be recognised that the railway line happens to link the potential of Wirral Waters, in north Wirral, with industry in Deeside, where we hope to see much growth. It runs between those two flagship zones for economic development. North Wales and Liverpool have a historic connection: many people from one area visit the other on holiday, and vice versa, and more people from Merseyside now want to visit the beautiful surroundings of north Wales. We want a direct rail link between the two to serve those people well.

Secondly, on poverty reduction, we know that we have to tackle worklessness by reducing travel-to-work barriers. This is not a “get-on-your-bike” mentality; people are already trying to make journeys between centres of population and centres of employment. We have to plan for how we can support them to do that in a way that will give businesses the confidence to invest because they know that there are skilled people available to hire. This is about addressing historic imbalances in rail investment and seeing whether we can do some infilling of pockets with a relatively modest investment that could have a long-term impact on economic development.

In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will plot a journey for us on how we can make progress with this project, which has been an aspiration for many years. My predecessor worked on it and other Members present have spent a great deal of time promoting it. On economic development and the difficulties that we face, especially in an area where a large number of people are employed in businesses that export to the eurozone, we need to continue to support the underlying infrastructure investment that will keep our industry strong.

More than simply arguing for the investment from which my own constituents could benefit—I do not apologise for doing so, although it is not enough to do just that—I hope that I have made a case for the potential in Merseyside and its surrounding areas in north Wales, Cheshire and Lancashire. Our region has much to offer a rebalanced UK economy. I hope that the Government will seize tomorrow’s opportunities and, by doing so, set in progress some of the answers to today’s economic strife.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I am pleased to be able to respond to this important debate and congratulate the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) on securing it. I concur with her that Liverpool’s real place in railway history is as the home of the first passenger railway. On the railway’s opening day, an MP got run over, which was a little unfortunate, but I will try to avoid such an incident in the future. Today, the city of Liverpool has one of the most intensive and busiest suburban networks outside London. A number of rail improvements have been delivered or are due to be delivered in the coming years and I will discuss them in a moment, but first I will address some the hon. Lady’s general points.

The coalition fully agrees that investment in our transport network is crucial. It can help to generate growth and improve competitiveness, which is why, despite the difficult public finances relating to the deficit, we have prioritised investment in our road and rail network. Our programme of rail improvements is bigger than any since the Victorian era. I agree that providing opportunities for employment, as well as widening labour pools and access to jobs and employment, is one of the key benefits of rail improvement schemes.

The hon. Lady was kind enough to refer to the previous Conservative Government’s activities in electrifying lines in the 1980s. The coalition Government also recognise the benefits of electrification, which is why we have a programme to roll it out in the north-west and on the Great Western line. We will also consider what more can be done. The hon. Lady asked about rolling stock cascade. Network Rail is programmed to deliver the electrification in the north-west and on the Great Western line that will start to deliver that cascade. The work is going well and is on schedule. We are also making progress on the Thameslink procurement, which is a key trigger for making available rolling stock to be cascaded elsewhere in the country, potentially to Merseyside.

The hon. Lady mentioned the aspiration to electrify the Wrexham to Bidston line. I am, of course, aware of the scheme and have discussed it with Merseytravel. I acknowledge its potential in relation to the economies of Wirral and Deeside, and she is right to mention the potential benefits of better links between north Wales and Merseyside. She will probably be aware that, a few years ago, Merseytravel and the Welsh Government asked Network Rail to undertake a study outlining the costs of the electrification proposal, and the figure produced was £207 million, so it is quite a high-cost scheme, which makes delivery a challenge. There was little follow-up on the study, and it must be recognised that, although we support electrification, if schemes are to go ahead they need to demonstrate value for money and be affordable.

[Alison McGovern]

Does the Minister agree that although railways are not cheap, compared with the billions that have been provided for Thameslink, which will have a great impact on London, the proposed investment is modest; that what matters is the resulting cost-benefit ratio; and that we need to clarify exactly what those benefits will be?

[Mrs Villiers]

I agree that we need to assess carefully the value for money of every scheme, but we also need to look at overall affordability. I am afraid that even when one is talking about Government spending, £200 million is a significant amount. I am impressed with the work that Network Rail is doing, for example, on how to get the costs of delivering electrification down. I hope that there is scope to see whether there might be a more affordable scheme in the future.

For a local line, we, like the previous Government, would normally look to the local authorities to seek out the funding to realise such a scheme. We know that such schemes are important to the local authorities and, if they attach a priority to them, we would expect them to consider their options for funding. That might include the major local scheme, which will reopen in 2015. That has funded some very important improvements, for example, at Kirkstall Forge and in Coventry. There are options open to Merseytravel and the Welsh Government. As we have done in the past, the Government are prepared to engage with them if they want to do further work.

We take broadly the same position on some of the other improvements mentioned in today’s debate. On proposals to upgrade the Halton curve, we recognise the potential local benefits and we would be happy to work with the local authorities on their aspirations. However, again, the local authorities need to identify the funding.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Justine Greening]

Yes, I will. I echo my hon. Friend’s thanks and praise for the staff of both companies and members of the emergency services who responded to the emergency landing at Gatwick on Monday. It is obviously too early to speculate on what exactly caused the incident, but it is now being investigated by the Department’s air accidents investigation branch.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Current electrification schemes for a better railway agreed under the previous Government will hopefully yield lessons on how to improve engineering processes and should make electrification of the midland main line and the important scheme for the Wrexham to Bidston line, which runs through my constituency, a better prospect. What early lessons has the Department learned on how to improve engineering for electrification?

[Mrs Villiers]

Sir David Higgins has come up with some great ideas exactly along the lines the hon. Lady mentions, which could considerably reduce the cost of delivering electrification. However, it is still expensive and still has to be affordable, so we will have to look at priorities.

High-Speed Rail

Alison McGovern Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Paul Maynard]

I thank the hon. Lady for that informative intervention. I know that there is no shortage of transport proposals in West Lancashire. She has not even mentioned the Ormskirk bypass yet. We could go on and on, I am sure.

To my mind, city regions have the best potential. I know that potentially they are also controversial. I am sure that many people would not want a return to Merseyside. However, I welcome the proposals from Lord Heseltine and Terry Leahy; if we are to have elected mayors in our great cities, they probably need to cover more than just the council of that name.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

As a proud Merseysider, I have to correct the hon. Gentleman and tell him that Merseyside still exists, certainly in transport terms. One of the important things that he is telling us is that interconnectivity between city regions that cover places such as Skelmersdale, and from Wirral to north Wales, is among the most important factors. There is already some good practice on the ground, certainly in Merseyside, in that respect. Is his point that we should deal with the reality of people’s lives, rather than having arbitrary decisions made in Whitehall about what councils do or do not exist?

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

Order. I ask hon. Members to keep to the substantive issue of the debate when making interventions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), and I hope that I will not test his rules for us too much. I may mention the case for High Speed 2, but I hope that he will forgive me. I shall do so from a perspective that is different from that previously taken, so I hope that it will not trouble him.

I want to make two points. First, we sometimes forget about connectivity in the north, although everyone assumes that they know about north-south connectivity now. Secondly, I want not only to consider northern cities and to build on the comments of other Members, but to look at bits of connectivity that are smaller but none the less truly important. I hope that the Minister will answer my questions about those minor bits of transport connectivity in the north of England and in Wales.

It is worth dwelling for a moment on the problem that is regularly experienced by my constituents, many of whom travel by train and are frequent users of the west coast main line. The problem is not that they cannot get to London quickly enough, because they can certainly get to London quickly, although they have trouble getting to other places fast enough; their problem is that they will probably not easily find somewhere to sit comfortably. That is a problem of capacity, not speed—I can see hon. Members nodding, for which I thank them. Watching the media, I sometimes have the impression that people think that congestion happens only in the south, and that the north of England is a traffic-free zone, where people always sit comfortably on trains. That is just not the case—if only it were. The west coast main line is very crowded.

I regularly meet people from businesses in the Wirral and the wider Merseyside area who wish to grow their businesses, but the problem is that their ability to do so is partly limited by their ability to travel. I must declare an interest in that, in a previous life, I worked for two years for Network Rail, so I am not averse to discussing engineering. I know from my time there, as the Minister will also know, that we do not begin such projects by asking ourselves what the biggest piece of infrastructure is that we can conceive of to solve the problem. We should try to do the straightforward things first, and it is worth bearing that hierarchy in mind.

The rail industry has struggled with problems of connectivity and congestion for many years. One solution is to have longer trains and longer platforms, but the west coast main line has a very limited ability to do that. Another solution is related to signalling and whether more train paths can be fitted in, but that is again very limited. I well remember—this is an important point—the impact of the west coast main line modernisation project on Liverpool, particularly when it was the capital of culture and that project was at its height. We are therefore out of options, which is why we are where we are and why we are looking at High Speed 2. There is no question but that it is needed. Business men in my constituency are desperate to travel around to grow their businesses. They ask me all the time about rail fares and about the congestion from which they suffer, and we should always keep their perspective in mind.

To my mind, the case for High Speed 2 has been made, although others may still question it, but we need to consider other elements of rail in the north. I agree with hon. Members who have spoken about the value of The Northern Way and asked whether some group might be convened to look at what projects are necessary for the whole north of England. In my previous life working in the cultural sector, one of the hardest problems was building the cultural economy in the north of England, where there are very important visitor destinations in Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle. The pathways between them are extremely difficult. Liverpool to Manchester is not too bad, although, given that they are only 38 miles apart, the time it takes to travel between them is not good enough, but I hope that will be assisted by electrification. However, Liverpool and Newcastle, which are two extremely important visitor destinations for this country, are not well connected, and a future priority for the Government must be to look at that.

There is a huge amount of latent demand in our economy that we should try to develop. That is true of not only the visitor economy, but other parts of the country’s economy, including the energy sector, which would be assisted by transport connectivity. At the end of the day, the transport economy is there to serve the rest of the productive economy. I might just add that I have been encouraged by the support shown for central planning in this debate, albeit tempered by the need for localism, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys.

A cross-north path is very important, not least to the people of Yorkshire, who want much better connectivity to Manchester and Liverpool.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making a very good case for connectivity across the north. We have always said that High Speed 2 is not the only solution and that we should create such connectivity. Recently, I took the train from Wrexham to Leeds, which took me four and a half hours, whereas people going to London arrived in about two and a half hours. Does that not make her point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alison McGovern]

I could not have come up with a better example. Wrexham is a town I know well. Hon. Members may not know that it is a fairly large industrial hub for the Deeside industrial area. Wrexham is a lynchpin, and so is Leeds, for business and legal services. The hon. Gentleman has lighted on a classic example. I implore the Minister to keep the Wrexham to Leeds example in her head, to remind her of the scale of the challenge in the north.

I do not really like making north-south comparisons, because the south has plenty of connectivity problems, I know; but the way London acts as the hub in the middle of large spokes—that is not what we have in the north—creates some of the difficulties.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on obtaining this important and worthwhile debate. On connectivity, I am a Yorkshire MP and there are two stations in my constituency on the Leeds-Manchester line, Slaithwaite and Marsden. Already there are concerns, because of electrification and the northern hub project, about the number of stopping services that will be available once the line is sped up. However, that is not necessarily a reason for us to be wary, or to be anti-high-speed rail; it just highlights other areas for investment in the rail network. I welcome the debate and what is being said.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. He clarifies exactly my point: we should be talking about what is necessary additional to High Speed 2.

[Rosie Cooper]

My hon. Friend talked about connectivity generally and the fact that it takes quite a time to get from Liverpool to Manchester, which is a distance of 38 miles. In this general discussion I would like to drive that further. For example, Skelmersdale does not have a railway station at all, so in rail terms it could take for ever to get from Skelmersdale to Manchester, or Skelmersdale to Liverpool. Skelmersdale to Preston takes for ever. To go by road—by bus—from Skelmersdale to the local hospital in Southport takes one hour and 23 minutes. I have done it.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the Ormskirk bypass earlier. People can get up and down Lancashire, but not across it. I fought and fought on that.

[Rosie Cooper]

Sorry. Add to that the fact that there is no railway station, transport is poor and people cannot use the roads either: it is impossible. We are not talking about big things. We cannot move.

[Alison McGovern]

My hon. Friend’s intervention brings home why all the things we are discussing matter. When I worked in the rail industry and spent a lot of time talking to engineers, I was constantly impressed by their abilities. However, sometimes I think that they forgot, a tiny bit, about the people. We should focus on articulating, as my hon. Friend has just done, issues such as being able to get swiftly to hospital. For people who live in Skelmersdale, having options in the current hard times in the labour market, and being able to get swiftly to the employment centres of Manchester or Liverpool, is crucial. We are not engaged in a dry discussion about the best way to engineer a railway; the discussion matters to our constituents on a daily basis, and my hon. Friend made that point well.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

Before coming into Parliament, I did a lot of travelling in my previous job, in the north-west and in Yorkshire and the Humber. Getting to places from Durham is not just a matter of arriving swiftly, or at all: it is a question of the pressure being put on the roads. To go north-south from Durham, where I live, to Yorkshire, I used to travel by train. If I was going to Manchester, and had plenty of time or was staying overnight, I went by train. If I wanted to get there in a hurry, or to go to Liverpool, I drove, adding to the congestion on the motorways. We need to take that into account as well.

[Alison McGovern]

My hon. Friend is right. We should not aim to design bits of railway across the north just for fun, because it would be nice to have a bigger train set. We should consider the total impact of what we are doing, not least on the economy, but also, as my hon. Friend said, on the environment. People’s stress levels are also affected. People tell me that one of the great things about the new west coast main line timetable is the fact that, because it is swifter, they arrive in a relaxed way. The performance of that bit of the network has largely been good, so they arrive ready to work in a relaxed way, which is what we want.

I want to conclude by talking a little about Wales and Cheshire. I hope that that will not test the definition of the north too much. We sometimes wonder about Cheshire and how far it qualifies as part of the north. Wrexham, as I mentioned in response to an intervention, is a crucial place industrially. It links to the Deeside area where lots of businesses are located. Connectivity between Wrexham and Liverpool is very poor. There is the Wrexham to Bidston line, on which there is one service an hour—it is terrible, and I have raised it with Ministers before. We need electrification of that line and a much better service at some point in future. It would be a massive help in getting people from north Wales to Liverpool airport. The line goes through areas of severe deprivation, where we want to get people to work as quickly as possible.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) was here earlier, and there are also issues to do with connectivity in the bit of Cheshire closest to the River Mersey. It is astonishingly difficult to travel by rail through that part of the network. I hope that in planning for the coming of High Speed 2 we will look not just at the major towns that we need to connect but at all the smaller elements of rail. The High Speed 2 project enables local areas to consider some of the planning, and work out what would best help them to make the most of High Speed 2. It is not just the major cities across the north but the smaller communities that need to be connected in, additionally, to the larger project.

The case is really made on the basis of capacity alone, but we will not achieve the benefits that are possible unless in the intervening years we focus on cities in the north, and the way to ensure the best possible connections between communities and the economies they want to work in.

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

The winding-up speeches will begin at exactly 20 to 4, so perhaps the remaining two speakers will divide the time accordingly.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock]

The Minister knows that much progress was made in planning under the Labour Government. It is critical to the area that the current Administration finish the job we started and I hope that, in her reply, she will expand on her attitude towards taking the project in parts.

[Alison McGovern]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is slightly odd of the Minister to describe us as having had 13 years to deliver the northern hub? The Labour party might have been in government for 13 years, but much of the first half of that time was spent sorting out the mess created by privatisation, and much of the second half was about developing the kind of proposals that we have spent our afternoon talking about.

[John Woodcock]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She knows that we took forward high-speed rail and the High Speed 2 project. We want the project completed by a future Labour Government.