Exiting the European Union
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 5 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
That is what I am doing. I am getting on with finding a way through—[Interruption.] I am listening to Members of this House and then going back to negotiate on that basis. The deal has been negotiated with the European Union. If the hon. Lady wants to avoid no deal, she has to accept a deal. This is the deal that is on the table.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
It was clear after the Chequers agreement was announced that there was not a majority in Parliament for it. It has been clear since the withdrawal agreement announcement was made that there is not a majority in Parliament for it. It has been clear after three days of debate that there is not a majority in Parliament for the Prime Minister’s plan. In that time, we have wasted months. Now the Prime Minister proposes to waste further weeks. Is the Prime Minister’s new strategy to run the clock down to the very last minute to give us a false choice between her deal and the catastrophe of no deal?
The Prime Minister
Hon. Members of this House will need to face the fact that there will be a choice between a deal, no deal and no Brexit—[Interruption.] Between a deal—a deal—no deal and no Brexit. There is no majority in this House for any of the alternative arrangements that have been put forward by Members of this House.
EU Exit Negotiations
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 5 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The people of this country voted to leave the European Union, and I believe that it is in their interests, and the duty of this Parliament, to deliver that. I said that there was a risk of no Brexit at all, and a number of Opposition Members have said that they would prefer to keep us in the European Union. I disagree—the British people voted to leave, and we will leave.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
My primary concern throughout this process has been jobs in my community, and nobody knows more about negotiating for jobs than our nation’s trade unions that represent millions of working people. Since this deal has been struck, has the Prime Minister spoken to our unions or their representatives, and if not, what day will she do so?
The Prime Minister
I assure the hon. Gentleman that the interests of trade unions and businesses have been taken into account in the work that has been done, and there has been interaction between trade unions and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
Overseas Electors Bill (Fourth sitting)
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 5 months ago)
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Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 14—Consolidated register of overseas electors—
“(1) The Minister for the Cabinet Office or the Secretary of State to compile a single, consolidated register of overseas electors for UK parliamentary elections.
(2) The Minister for the Cabinet Office or the Secretary of State may, by regulations, specify requirements for the publication, availability for inspection and sale of information in that register.”
Alex Norris
New clause 13 is my last stab at allaying the concerns that electoral administrators have expressed following the publication of the “votes for life” document and the Bill. In this case, their concerns relate to double registration. The principle is that when electoral registration officers use address data to verify someone’s eligibility to register, they will establish whether someone has lived in that place. However, they will not try to establish whether that is the last place where the person lived, or whether they have lived in multiple places and are having the same conversation with multiple electoral registration officers around the country, and possibly voting in two or more places. That seems to be a specific, live danger that might merit an individual sanction, which is what the proposed new clause suggests.
Alex Norris
The next time, he won by 9,000, which is 100 times as many. They have got to know him, and he cleaned up.
Alex Norris
It might create a bit of a perverse incentive for people to do things that they should not.
Bob Stewart
The hon. Gentleman referred to the hon. Member for City of Chester, who is extremely popular with my old soldiers. That will give him quite an advantage, despite the fact that he is from that accursed Opposition party. I want to reassure him that he is extremely popular with old soldiers, and they will probably—despite my instructions to the contrary—vote for him.
Alex Norris
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I think he might have made my hon. Friend blush, which is certainly a first in the time that I have known him.
I think that I have dealt with new clause 13 adequately. I am pushing new clause 14 with a little trepidation. It is not that it is not party policy, but more that we do not have a policy in this area and I am not sure how much the party would welcome my writing one. However, I thought I would just test this, because it is a matter of interest.
It follows from new clause 13 that having a codified place would be one tool for ensuring that we do not have double or treble registration. Members might say, and they are probably right, that my view is perhaps that we could have a single register for the whole of the country, and I probably do think that. We could certainly start with overseas electors, which would offer a chance to eradicate any fraudulent activity. In France, they do it at municipality level, so it is certainly technically possible. I wanted to probe and test the waters to find out whether it is seen as desirable, and I would be very interested to hear from the Minister as well as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire. I will not say any more, because I think the new clauses are relatively self-explanatory.
Christian Matheson
I rise briefly to thank the hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham for his generous words.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North has tabled an interesting proposal in new clause 13, and makes the point that registration in more than one constituency is not the norm, although it is not unusual. As he suggested, many hon. Members are registered in more than one constituency, myself included. That certainly is not something that we seek to prohibit because there are legitimate reasons for it; for example working in two places, being a student, or—dare I say it—being a multimillionaire and having more than one residence. There are legitimate reasons for doing so; the offence is in voting twice in the same election. I do not wish to put words in the Minister’s mouth, but I know that she is very keen to clamp down on electoral fraud.
My main concern relates to overseas registration. As there is no direct physical link—for example, a property where the voter is registered—it is slightly easier to register in more than one constituency for the same election.
New clause 14 is intriguing, as it targets an issue of concern that needs to be considered, and I would be interested to hear the responses from the Minister and the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire. The proposal of a national centralised register is an interesting idea. Now that voters are asked to provide their national insurance number when they register, it would be easier to make a national register of voters. We in Her Majesty’s official Opposition do not currently have a position on that, but I would be interested to hear the views of other members of the Committee. I thank my hon. Friend for his new clauses.
Bob Stewart
Forgive me, I thought I was on new clause 14. I will shut up in that case, having been admonished by you, Mr Robertson. I totally agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire, but he had a stake in the country while he was away. My queasy thought is that, while they may be very small in number, some people might not. That is my point and now, Mr Robertson, I am quashed.
Alex Norris
I appreciate all the comments that have been made. In the spirit of what the hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham has said, it is important to be sure of the implications of these matters and to monitor them over time. I hope we will all keep an eye on that.
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying the measures in the 1983 and 1985 Acts. That goes quite a way to reassuring me, so I will not push proposed new clause 13 to the vote. On cherry-picking, I did not miss the point about last registration, but I still do not know how on earth an electoral registration officer would know it was the last one. They would know it was a valid one, but they would not know what the person did next, if they had left the local authority area. That is perhaps something to consider as we go along, but probably not this afternoon.
That covers proposed new clause 13. I have served the purpose of proposed new clause 14 by giving it a run out, so I will not push that to a vote, either. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.
Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill to the House.
Glyn Davies
This may be traditional but it is not just a tradition: I really do want to thank everybody who has played a part in the Committee stage. There has been a huge amount of detail. I have been resistant to a lot of the amendments tabled, but I have tried to listen carefully to everything that has been said about them. A lot of good points have been made. It has certainly expanded hugely my knowledge of the issue and of private Members’ Bills. When I put my name in the ballot, I had not anticipated the commitment required. It will be interesting to see whether I will be inspired to accept a Whip’s instruction to put my name in the ballot next year. I thank everybody involved in our long consideration of the Bill, including you, Mr Robertson, for chairing the Committee so ably and in such a friendly manner, and all the officials.
Overseas Electors Bill (Third sitting)
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
Since I was first elected last June, my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester has been very supportive and has guided me well, which I have always appreciated. We have seen more of that today.
Virtually the final thing we talked about last week was my amendment that would have changed the registration deadline for overseas voters to polling day minus 19 days. This amendment follows a similar principle but is perhaps a bit more temperately put, shall I say, and a better way of achieving what I sought to achieve. My amendment also had a minor technical problem, so I was happy to withdraw it. I actually think that this amendment is much better.
All Members who have contributed have at some point mentioned the high regard in which we hold our electoral administrators. It is really important that the general public know—we in this room already know—that they are not people who live in a cupboard and come out at election time. They do normal jobs that touch our lives every day, whether they are a chief executive of a council or work in leisure services or social care. They then put on a different hat—I characterised it as like becoming an international football team at election time—when they come out to do these jobs. We all respect and revere their work. As part of that, we have to listen to them when they talk to us. As I mentioned last week, my anxiety is that we have not really paid heed to much of what they have said.
Christian Matheson
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words. Does he share my concern that we too often pay lip service to the public servants who work with us, saying how much we respect and value them, but do not practise that when it comes to the crunch?
Alex Norris
That is my anxiety. One of my core political values is doing unto others as you would have done to yourself. If I were in their shoes, I am sure that I would be grateful for the warm wishes, but what I would most want from parliamentarians is that they listen to me. I say that as a preface to the AEA’s saying that:
“In view of this time limit being removed”—
the time limit being the 15-year rule—
“consideration needs to be given to the deadline being brought forward for overseas electors to register so that it allows sufficient time to process and check previous revisions of registers”—
we have talked about that—
“followed by documentary evidence or attestations being provided, if necessary. In addition, sufficient time is required to arrange for any absent vote arrangements to be put in place so that the overseas elector can cast their vote at the election or referendum in time for it to be counted.”
That is moderately put, but the message is clear. We ought to look at this idea. I am willing to concede, as a headstrong and a relatively new Member, that I perhaps pushed on too quickly in saying that we should definitely move the time limit—the evidence is perhaps not yet clear enough. However, through this review, the evidence would become clear, and it would soon become obvious whether there is a problem that needs to be solved. I hope we would listen because there is fundamental merit in understanding that.
As always after a day here, I reflected on what Opposition Members—sorry, Government Members; I have fast-forwarded a year or so—
Alex Norris
Now I am being a smartypants, so I will stop.
I always reflect on what Government Members say to ensure that I understand things the way that I thought I did, or that the point I was trying to get over was the right one. In particular, I reflected on two things from last week. First, I reflected on what the hon. Member for Kingswood said about electoral Jenga and whether there was an unintended consequence of pulling that lever and extending that polling day minus 12 to polling day minus 19. I am still not persuaded that that would have a knock-on impact. The only thing I found was that there is a chance, which the hon. Gentleman raised, that individuals would not know the candidates at that point. That would be important at the time of casting a ballot—
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
It is an important consideration.
Alex Norris
It is a very important consideration when choosing whether to cast a ballot, but I do not think it is a material consideration when choosing whether to register to vote. We certainly would not tolerate that at home. There are significant penalties attached to not registering, so we would not be persuaded if a person had a knock on the door and their answer for why they had not registered was, “I don’t fancy the candidates very much.” The Minister has made the important assertion multiple times that she sees no difference between an overseas and a domestic elector, so I am not persuaded of that point.
Secondly, I reflected on the point made by the hon. Member for Beckenham that an extra seven working days, with a weekend in there too, was maybe too long. Again, the review would get to the bottom of that. Electoral administrators will know for how many days after an election they are still getting votes by post—I bet they hate that, but it must happen, and I bet there are some hilarious stories about votes coming in six months after too. In general, they will get votes coming in the day after polling day, and I am sure they look at them in great frustration. How many days is that true for? It probably has a half-life and diminishes by whatever the inverse of exponential is.
Alex Norris
I thank the hon. Lady, who clearly gave more consideration to her mathematics studies than I did. I do have a maths A-level, and my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester will be amazed to learn that I got an A grade. I am very proud of it.
A relatively quick conversation with electoral administrators will determine whether we need a couple of days or three days and whether an extra week would be superfluous. That lends more weight to the case for a review.
When I moved previous amendments, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire and other hon. Members said that what I was suggesting might have halted the Bill’s progress, which was undesirable, but this proposal would not halt the Bill’s progress. It would set in train an entirely separate process and would strengthen the Bill because we would have a true understanding of how we might need to improve our system. I reiterate the point that we should listen to our electoral administrators, who are really good and who know about this issue. They have said that consideration needs to be given to it, so we should back them and do it.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh. It is the first time that it has been my pleasure to do so and I am looking forward to it. In this case, as in several others, Opposition Members make interesting points, but their underlying purpose is simply to delay the enfranchisement of the many overseas citizens who, in my view, should be entitled to vote in our elections.
The Government have made many improvements in this area, and I am sure they will make many more. They will take into account all the comments that have been made in the debate. On that basis, the amendments are unjustifiable, and I hope the hon. Member for City of Chester feels able to withdraw them.
Christian Matheson
Before we suspended, my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter asked whether I see a worrying trend of the Government being given advice by the Electoral Commission but not taking it into account. I seem to remember that in the run-up to the 2015 general election—probably in November or December 2014—the Electoral Commission proposed limiting the national spend on an election to £25 million or £30 million. Conservative Ministers in David Cameron’s coalition Government said, “Thank you, but we’ll ignore that,” and set the budget for the total national spend at about £78 million, which was conveniently close to what was in the Conservative party’s war chest at the time. The answer to my right hon. Friend’s question is yes, I do see a worrying trend.
If we are going to have an independent Electoral Commission as the guardian of the integrity of our electoral system, we should follow its recommendations. If it recommends x, we should not ignore it and proceed with y; we should show it a bit of respect. I say to Government Members that, having established an independent Electoral Commission, we should put its views before individual party considerations.
I have utter admiration for my right hon. Friend: he was in the House during the passage of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, so he has direct experience of the discussions that went on at the time and he knows exactly what we are talking about. More than that, he has direct knowledge of how things were before the Act and of the reason for having an Electoral Commission in the first place. I urge Committee members to take careful note of what he has to say on the matter. There was a reason for passing the Act and for banning foreign donations, and there is a reason that today, as part of that lineage, we seek clarification on the effect on overseas donors of expanding the franchise under the Bill.
Earlier, I mentioned enforcement. A critical question that the UK Government must consider is how electoral donation laws will be upheld when the rules are broken by a British person abroad. What preparations has the Minister made to enforce donation laws when they are breached by British individuals overseas? We have heard from the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon about the onus placed on political parties, but what about individuals abroad? Will they be considered culpable or liable under those circumstances?
We believe that better investigation is needed of how best to control political party donations to avoid illegal donations from overseas. I am speaking in favour of the hon. Lady’s new clause, and welcoming it warmly, because there is a real question mark over whether we are opening ourselves and our democracy up to further abuse, at a time when there is increasing evidence of meddling in our democracy from abroad by certain state actors, and through the use of foreign money. We all know who and what I am talking about, and we should not be blind to the dangers. In giving my support to the new the clause, I ask hon. Members, without being overly dramatic, to bear it in mind that our democracy is once again at stake. We need to be very careful that the Bill has no unintended consequences that allow malign foreign state influences greater access to meddle in and distort our democracy.
Alex Norris
We said at the outset that the integrity of our democracy is paramount, and during these sittings we have had to be mindful of unintended consequences and risks that could be created by the Bill, and this issue certainly falls into that category. I commend the work done by the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon. This is the second time today that she has raised a significant point, and her leadership on this matter is very much valued across the House.
At no point have we said that the goal of the legislation is to expand the pool of eligible donors. That is its impact, though, so it is right that we should ensure that it does not create a weakness in our democracy and a vulnerability. The 2010 Supreme Court judgment said that eligibility to be registered was a significant factor in deciding permissibility, so we operate in that world. However, we do not have clarity from the Government—it would be great to get it at the earliest opportunity—on whether their position is that a person must be on the register at the point of donation. I was looking for that, but I do not think that the Government have ever showed their hand on it. It would be really valuable if they did so.
It is important to stress, as the hon. Lady did, that the new clause would not delay the Bill in the slightest; it would create a parallel process. I understood, heard and reflected on what the Minister said about normal business, and I took some reassurance from that, but on something so important there are two reasons that it will not suffice for the matter to be left to normal ministerial business.
First, this matter above all requires genuine transparency. We understand and respect the work that Ministers do, but it is important for everybody in the country who does not have insight into that to understand, and to have confidence in, that element of our democracy. That is why transparency is uppermost, and sunlight would be very much the best disinfectant when it comes to money in politics.
Secondly, Ministers change. A wise colleague told me early on to try to get good relationships with Ministers because they have such an important say over what happens in our communities, but not to get attached to those relationships because they change. That is why getting things written down and having something public that we can work with is so important. That would not delay the Bill, but it would, I hope, help to contain an unintended consequence of it and, as a result, give us all a bit more confidence in the very murky world around party donations.
Glyn Davies
I always listen to the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon with great interest. She raised a lot of interesting points, and I do not think for one second that the new clause would delay the Bill; the points made by those on the Opposition Benches about that are right.
However, I think the new clause would extend the Bill. My intention in introducing the Bill is just to extend the franchise, and going into a complex, controversial area might well be a job for another Bill. I did not intend that to be part of this Bill. I hope, on that basis, that the hon. Lady will not press the new clause to a vote.
Alex Norris
On 28 November last year, I led a debate in Westminster Hall about voter registration in my constituency. The reply for the Government came from the hon. Member for Kingswood. I appreciated the spirit in which he replied, but I was unable to draw something from him that I hope to draw from the Minister. We want an accurate record and do not want anybody there who should not be, but I have never been clear whether it is a Government priority for it to be the fullest record possible. We want to reach people who are not on it and encourage them to do so. I believe it should be the fullest record possible and the amendment supports that aim.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
May I give a quick plug to the Government’s democratic engagement strategy, which was published in December 2017 after the hon. Gentleman’s debate? It sets out in detail how we wanted to look at registration for the future.
Alex Norris
I appreciate that and I encourage colleagues to look at that document. I was clear in that debate, and I will be clear now, that my instinctive enthusiasm is for automatic registration. I do not want anyone to think that I am not arguing for it or that I am trying to bring it in by the back door. That is where my enthusiasm lies, and I ought to be honest about it.
According to the Government’s impact assessment, the best estimate of the Bill’s cost is £8.8 million. However, I was disappointed to read paragraph 40 on page 10, which states:
“There is currently no planned expenditure for communications to raise awareness amongst overseas electors of their existing right to vote from central government. Some work may be expected from the Electoral Commission prior to polls.”
I would like people to be reminded and prompted. Page 13 gives an estimate that 25% of the newly enfranchised will register, so I wonder whether we can do better. Prompting people would be one way of achieving that. As we have discussed, the desire behind the Bill is to extend the franchise and give people a chance to vote, but that is not ambitious enough. We are glad the Government have committed to spending money—clearly there will be a cost—but I wonder whether we have the chance to go a little further.
My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester has squeezed my speech—I was going to rely on the same Electoral Commission survey. However, at a basic level, this is about ensuring that people understand the system, never mind prompting or positively encouraging them to register. Only 29% of those surveyed thought that they had to renew annually, while 38% thought that that was a falsehood and 34% did not know. Come what may, we have a job to do to make people understand not only whether they can register but how to do it. I will leave it at that, but I commend my hon. Friend’s new clause and hope Committee members consider it kindly.
Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.— (Glyn Davies.)
Overseas Electors Bill (Second sitting)
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Christian Matheson
I am grateful for the responses of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire and the Minister. A definition of residence is still an outstanding requirement, arising out of the Law Commission’s 2016 report. I suspect that as we extend the franchise we shall have to return to the idea of what constitutes a residence that will anchor overseas voters to a constituency. However, the Minister has addressed the concerns raised by the amendment. I am not entirely sure that I agree with her, but in the context of the Committee I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move amendment 36, in clause 1, page 3, leave out lines 5 to 8 and insert—
“(3) The second condition is that the person making the declaration (‘the declarant’) proves that they qualify as an overseas elector in respect of the constituency by providing valid supporting documentation to the registration officer.
(3A) Valid supporting documentation for the purposes of proving qualification for the previous registration condition are—
(a) a poll card, or
(b) a letter from the appropriate local authority stating that the person was on the electoral roll at the appropriate time.
(3B) Valid supporting documentation for the purposes of proving qualification for the previous residence condition must include—
(a) one document from List A, or
(b) two documents from List B.
(3C) For the purposes of subsection (3B), List A documents include but are not limited to—
household utility bill (such as gas, electric, water or telephone);
full UK photocard driving licence with signature or ‘old style’ driving licence (including provisional or expired licences);
bank, building society or credit card statement, or bank or building society passbook;
local authority tax bill (e.g. council tax bill);
local authority rent book;
solicitor’s letter confirming house purchase or land registry confirmation, or an official copy of the land register or other proof of title;
HM Revenue & Customs (Inland Revenue) tax document such as a tax assessment, statement of account or notice of coding;
original notification letter from the relevant benefits agency confirming entitlement to benefits or the state pension;
pension or benefit correspondence from the Department for Work and Pensions;
instrument of a court appointment, e.g. probate or court-registered power of attorney.
(3D) For the purposes of subsection (3B), List B documents include but are not limited to—
payslip;
employment document, such offer of employment or reference;
school, college or university (or UCAS) document, such as offer of a place, or confirmation of attendance;
insurance documents, such as full insurance schedule, or letter confirming insurance cover;
student loans company letter;
mobile telephone bill;
other evidence prescribed in guidance given by the Minister.
(3E) To be valid supporting documentation, a document must contain both a date (which can be earlier than the date the declarant left the address concerned) and the declarant’s declared last address in the United Kingdom.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 3, in clause 1, page 3, line 34, after “name” insert “and date of birth”.
Amendment 4, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state either the declarant’s National Insurance number or the reason the declarant is unable to provide his or her National Insurance number,”.
Amendment 5, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state any previous full names held by the declarant in the period since they were last resident in the United Kingdom or registered and the reasons for any changes of name,”.
Amendment 6, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state the number and date of issue of a British passport held by the declarant or, if the declarant no longer holds a British passport, prescribed information relating to the nationality of the declarant,”.
Amendment 7, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state a telephone number for the declarant,”.
Amendment 8, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state an email address for the declarant,”.
Amendment 9, in clause 1, page 3, line 35, at end insert—
“(aa) state the declarant’s preferred means of contact by the registration officer,””.
Amendment 10, in clause 1, page 3, line 38, leave out
“that the declarant is not resident in the United Kingdom”
and insert
“state the country of residence of the declarant, and how long they have lived there,”.
Amendment 11, in clause 1, page 3, line 42, at end insert—
“(ea) state that the declarant is aware of the voting offences under sections 60 and 61 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 and associated punishments under sections 168 and 169 of that Act,”.
Amendment 12, in clause 1, page 3, line 42, at end insert—
“(ea) state whether the declarant intends to make absent voting arrangements or to vote in person at a polling station,”.
Amendment 38, in clause 1, page 3, line 44, leave out from first “requirements” to end of paragraph and insert—
“(fa) contain a valid attestation of identity under section [Attestation of identity],”.
Amendment 39, in clause 1, page 4, line 48, at end insert—
“1CA Attestation of identity
(1) A valid attestation of identity must contain attestations from two attestors.
(2) The first attestor must be a registered elector resident in the constituency in which the declarant wishes to be registered.
(3) The second attestor must be a registered overseas elector.
(4) An attestor must not be the spouse, civil partner, parent, grandparent, brother, sister, child or grandchild of the declarant.
(5) An attestation must—
(a) be in writing and signed by the attestor,
(b) swear that, to the best of the attestor’s knowledge, the declarant is the person named in the declaration,
(c) state the attestor’s British passport number together with its date of issue,
(d) be dated on the date on which the attestation is made,
(e) confirm that the person attestor is aware of the offence, under section 13D of the Representation of the People Act 1983, of providing false information to a registration officer, and
(f) confirm that the attestor is a person of good standing in the community
(6) For the purposes of paragraph (5)(f), examples of a person of good standing in the community include, but are not limited to, the following or their local equivalents—
accountant
airline pilot
articled clerk of a limited company
assurance agent of recognised company
bank or building society official
barrister
chiropodist
Commissioner of Oaths
civil servant (permanent)
dentist
director, manager or personnel officer of a limited company
director or manager of a VAT-registered charity
director or manager or personnel officer of a VAT-registered company
engineer (with professional qualifications)
financial services intermediary (e.g. a stockbroker or insurance broker)
fire service official
funeral director
insurance agent (full time) of a recognised company
journalist
Justice of the Peace
lecturer
legal secretary (fellow or associate member of the Institute of Legal Secretaries and PAs)
licensee of public house
local government officer
medical professional
member, associate or fellow of a professional body
Merchant Navy officer
minister of a recognised religion (including Christian Science)
nurse (Registered General Nurse or Mental Health Nurse)
officer of the armed services
optician
paralegal (certified paralegal, qualified paralegal or associate member of the Institute of Paralegals)
person with an honour (such as an OBE or MBE)
pharmacist
photographer (professional)
police officer
Post Office official
publicly-elected representative (such as MP, Councillor or MEP)
president or secretary of a recognised organisation
Salvation Army officer
social worker
solicitor
surveyor
teacher
trade union officer
travel agent (qualified)
valuer or auctioneer (fellows and associate members of the Incorporated Society of Valuers and Auctioneers)
warrant officers and chief petty officers.”
Amendment 19, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state either the declarant’s National Insurance number or the reason the declarant is unable to provide his or her National Insurance number,”.
Amendment 20, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state any previous full names held by the declarant in the period since they last made a renewal declaration and the reasons for any changes of name,”.
Amendment 21, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state the number and date of issue of a British passport held by the declarant or, if the declarant no longer holds a British passport, prescribed information relating to the nationality of the declarant,”.
Amendment 22, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state a telephone number for the declarant,”.
Amendment 23, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state an email address for the declarant,”.
Amendment 24, in clause 1, page 6, line 11, at end insert—
“(aa) state the declarant’s preferred means of contact by the registration officer,”.
Amendment 25, in clause 1, page 6, line 14, leave out
“that the declarant is not resident in the United Kingdom”
and insert
“the country of residence of the declarant, and how long they have lived there,”.
Amendment 26, in clause 1, page 6, line 15, at end insert—
“(da) state that the declarant is aware of the voting offences under sections 60 and 61 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 and associated punishments under sections 168 and 169 of that Act,”.
Amendment 27, in clause 1, page 6, line 15, at end insert—
“(da) state whether the declarant intends to make absent voting arrangements or to vote in person at a polling station,”.
Alex Norris
My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester and I are doing some sort of double act. I shall speak briefly, but I shall leave a little meat on the bone for him as well. With amendment 36 I am seeking to clarify what documentary evidence the Government see as necessary to register as an overseas elector. Obviously, I hope that the amendment is accepted, but if not, I hope to come away with a clearer understanding.
Hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Kingswood, may note the plagiarism that I have committed in my amendment, as it comes from the October 2016 policy statement, “A democracy that works for everyone: British citizens overseas”. I have lifted the amendment from there and seek to put it in the Bill. The document says that the standard that I have written “may” be used and I am trying to change that to “must”. That is pragmatic and sensible, although I am mindful of the comments that I just heard from the Bill’s promoter the hon. Member for Monmouthshire and the Minister about hurdles, so I am less confident than when I drafted the amendment.
If an electoral registration officer needed to check on the registration of a domestic voter, they would just go to the property, but obviously that is not the case with overseas voters. Something more stringent will clearly be necessary to demonstrate the applicant’s eligibility to vote in the UK and in that constituency. The amendment supports EROs to do that and puts that clearly in law.
The broader context is that people will make attempts online to subvert democracy and to involve themselves in democracies—it astonishes me that people will go to such lengths, although not that they have an interest in doing so. If there are people out there who are willing to set up whole incredible industries to do that, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that, if they had the chance not just to influence public opinion but to generate votes, they would be minded to abuse that. We ought to have safeguards in place.
I am conscious that, if the Bill passes through all its stages in this place, we are talking about around 5 million new applications for voter registration, which is a lot for EROs to check. We need to have a clear standard if we are going to be accurate about voter identification and prevent fraud.
Under the current law, overseas voters must have previously registered in the UK, as we have said. As I mentioned last week, the EROs must then do some time-consuming research about an overseas voter—it takes about two hours for each one. That job is becoming harder, because the primary port of call for that research is previous electoral registers, which are becoming rarer as organisations are going paperless.
I was not successful in passing my amendment about rolling out the extension from 15 years more slowly on an annual basis, so we are going to have a section of people for whom it has been a long time since they were registered in this country. That will be very difficult for the electoral registration officers, so I am trying to change slightly the burden of proof on the individual. I do not think that is particularly onerous—indeed, it is the Government’s test, not mine. That is reasonable.
I will leave amendment 36 there. What I dislike most in politicians is hypocrisy, so I want to put on the record that I have been and will continue to be vocal about voter ID pilots. I am not enthusiastic about them and I think that, wittingly or unwittingly, they are suppressing voter numbers. I do not think that there is anything inconsistent about that view and the belief that there ought to be a higher standard for those for whom it is much harder to prove fraud, such as people living overseas. That is why there is a variance, and mindfully so. It is not a quiet hypocrisy that I hope hon. Members will let me get away with.
Christian Matheson
I share my hon. Friend’s views about voter ID. He talks about the higher standard to prevent fraud, but of course it is also a higher standard to be able to enforce the law on somebody who might be committing an offence in this country but is doing so from abroad while living abroad, and who therefore cannot be brought to justice.
Alex Norris
That is right. We would get into all sorts of problems around extradition and I cannot imagine that that is where we want to go. Having that standard at the front would therefore deter those things from happening later.
On amendments 38 and 39, which relate to attestation, again I am interested in probing and testing why the Bill is drafted in its current form, and whether we can gently beef up those attestation provisions. My amendment says that there should be two forms of attestation, one from an individual in the constituency where the elector is registering and one from an overseas elector. I think that would make it a bit more robust. Currently, all we are requiring is that the identity must be attested by another overseas registered elector who is not a close relative, and that person needs to be aware of the penalties.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman mean that someone in the home constituency actually writes some sort of form saying, “I know this person. They lived here 15 years ago”? Is that what he is talking about, in practical terms?
Alex Norris
Yes, that sums up neatly, in practical terms, how it would work. My logic for this is that I think it is a really big thing—to the point of not being a reasonable or effective thing to ask—for an overseas British person to verify that another overseas British person lived in another place perhaps two decades ago, at least over 15 years ago. I know the Association of Electoral Administrators has said that applicants themselves struggle to remember what their address was, so to expect a third party to be able reliably to attest to where that individual lived, to the point where we would be happy for it to play a significant role in our democracy, is not quite tight enough for me. It is asking people to be a bit generous with what they are likely to know. I do not think it is realistic.
Bob Stewart
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. On that point, I am very worried, because some of my constituents who live abroad and have been lobbying me on this do not actually know anyone left in their home area. That remains a problem for them.
Alex Norris
I can understand that. However, the alternative is saying that they just need to know someone who lives abroad and is British. I will be interested to hear from the Bill’s promoter the hon. Member for Monmouthshire and the Minister, and maybe there will be a Goldilocks solution somewhere in the middle, but I do not think it is sufficient as it is. Again, I think this is about trying to tackle fraud.
To conclude, amendments 36, 38 and 39 seek a clear understanding, so that on Report and at Third Reading we all know what we are signing up to, and what hurdles an individual will have to clear. I am mindful that the Bill’s promoter the hon. Member for Monmouthshire said that he is not looking to put extra hurdles in place, which I understand, but we need to know confidently that this person is eligible to be registered in this way. I am really keen to know how that might work.
Christian Matheson
I rise in support of amendment 36, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North. I will also speak to amendments 3 to 12, which are in my name. I will seek your guidance, Mr Robertson, about other amendments in this group.
I intend not to speak at length, so as not to repeat what my hon. Friend said. He made a general point about the need for a higher standard for overseas voters, because it is harder for electoral registration officers to verify their residency or identity, and he is concerned about fraud. He is absolutely right to be so concerned.
In response to the previous clause, the Minister spoke about leaving things up to electoral registration officers. Although I trust the skill and experience of electoral registration officers, I am concerned that there will be a lack of consistent practice across the United Kingdom when it comes to deciding what is acceptable proof of previous residency or a connection to that constituency. I ask the Minister or the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire to address the question of maintaining a consistent approach for electoral registration officers across the UK.
Many of the arguments for amendment 36 also apply to amendments 3 to 12, which carry the same goal as the one we have just discussed. They would put into the Bill the pre-existing guidance provided by the Government on declaration requirements, such as the need for a national insurance number—that is now required for all domestic voters, so it should also be required for overseas voters—full name, passport details and awareness of any criminal penalty for a false declaration. I hope that Government Members will consider these amendments as further developing and pragmatically amending the Bill in order to create better legislation that is less vulnerable to electoral fraud and abuse.
The amendments include additional requirements, such as providing a telephone number, an email address, a preferred means of contact, country of residence and potential proxy vote arrangements. That would provide electoral registration officers with greater accessibility to overseas electors, and provide more data so that we could understand the demographic make-up of overseas electors. That is relevant in this context particularly in the context of some of the consequential amendments.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North said, whereas an ERO querying a domestic voter can visit the address stated on the register—by definition, that will be in their borough, so it will be close to them—that is not possible for an overseas voter, so such checks at the point of registration become more necessary. By including requirements for information such as a national insurance number and passport details, we aim to create a more consistent approach to voting across the UK. Importantly, it would also make the system clearer for EROs. It would require applicants who could not provide a national insurance number to supply a copy of their passport at the time of application. The provision in the policy statement outlining that it is at the ERO’s discretion whether an original copy of the passport is required would be limited to cases in which there was extreme doubt as to the validity of an application and/or the passport; hence the ERO would have to request the original documentation only if they were not happy with the copy that they had received.
May I seek your guidance, Mr Robertson? Would you like me now to move amendments 19 to 27?
Chloe Smith
It brings to an end the current or first declaration, as I say. I will be happy to confirm more precisely what that looks like from the position of the registration officer, which may be what the hon. Gentleman is asking for. The legal mechanism there is certainly that the first validity is brought to an end.
I come now to the absent voting arrangements proposed in amendments 12 and 27. I am not persuaded by what I see in those amendments that it is necessary to ask an elector whether they intend to make absent voting arrangements or to vote in person, because, like any other elector, they can change their mind. I am not in the business of trying to make arbitrary distinctions between overseas and domestic electors. Any elector is permitted to change their mind on that, so I am not persuaded of the purpose that would be served by those amendments.
Turning to renewal, there is no renewal process for electors with an overseas elector’s declaration. The declaration itself lasts for 12 months, so if somebody wishes to remain an overseas elector, they must make a fresh declaration every year. A renewal process is being introduced in the Bill, requiring less information, not more, from electors at the point of renewal. An applicant’s identity will have been established as part of their original registration, so there is no need for an elector to provide all the same information when doing it again.
We are allowing EROs to pre-populate forms with the relevant details, and the gov.uk site will allow electors to confirm that the information pre-populated in the reminder that has been sent to them remains true. We will introduce an online method of doing that, which is a provision that does not currently exist but that we think will make re-registrations easier for voters. The Bill includes a power to make detailed provision on renewal declarations in secondary legislation; as with existing electoral legislation, I think that is the right place for the procedural details of applications.
The requirement for overseas electors to renew their registration annually is in close analogy to how we treat domestic electors, who have to reconfirm their details every year in order to appear on the electoral register. It helps to ensure that electoral registers remain accurate. As we all know, accuracy is one of the core measurements of the integrity of an election and of our democracy. As is currently the case, in the three months before a registration is due to expire, EROs will send two reminders to an elector that they need to re-register. The sending of those reminders will be made mandatory, and it will be possible to send them electronically.
Finally, I come back to attestations, which the hon. Member for Nottingham North began with. The amendments would require all declarations from overseas electors to provide two attestations—one from abroad and one from home. As I said at the outset, that is not the right approach, because it would create a fundamental difference between domestic and overseas electors. Currently, an attestation is needed only as a fall-back. The same may be the case for domestic voters, and comparisons could also be drawn with some of the more specialised processes that we use, for example for those who make anonymous registrations.
The key point is that to suggest that the fall-back position should be changed to a requirement of not only one attestation but two is quite unjust to an overseas voter. I return to my core point: these are voters and citizens like any other, and we should not seek to make that difference. It could be potentially fatally burdensome for a voter to have to find a person back at home to provide an attestation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham said.
I hope that my remarks have been helpful to the hon. Members who proposed the amendments. I thank them for their important probing of the Bill’s details, but I hope they have been able to consider my response and will not press the amendments.
Alex Norris
I thank those who have contributed to the debate. I start with an apology; it has been brought to my attention that I referred to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire as the hon. Member for Monmouthshire. He has been far too kind to correct me. As mitigation, I have been listening to the musical “Hamilton” more than is healthy, where the battle of Monmouth features, but I apologise.
I return to what the Minister said; I noted that she said overseas voters are equal to any of us and are citizens like any other. I do not dispute that at all. When we participate on election day we will be indistinguishable—we will all have the chance to contribute one vote. That is quite right and I do not think there was any suggestion of changing that.
However, the idea that they are citizens like any other does not reflect reality: they are not when it comes to verifying their eligibility at an address, because the electoral registration officer cannot go round their house. To be fair, if my electoral registration officer was offered the chance to go to the Bahamas to verify an overseas voter, he might say yes to that. However, he is also the chief executive of our council so he does not have time. I do not think it is unreasonable to say that the challenges, and the potential for fraud, are different. Therefore, we might need to match our verification process to that situation in a different way. That is not unreasonable and I might want to press the amendment to a vote.
I was interested to hear the Minister say that we would not want people to fall out of the process because they do not have a telephone number or an email address. I have some sympathy for that argument. The direction of travel of voter ID pilots means that lots of people in communities such as mine who do not have passports, driving licences or any of the conventional ways to verify their address might be subject to the same rules. I hope that will not be the case.
Alex Norris
The Minister shakes her head, which I am pleased to see. She is clearly passionate about equal access. As we follow the voter ID reforms that are being suggested, I will continue to remind her of that.
I will finish on localism. The Minister is not keen for amendment 36 to be in the Bill because she wants to leave the experts in the local community some leeway. I am a big fan of localism, but when it comes to our democracy and to the verification of voters, I do not think there is much of an argument for variation among communities. We ought to set a clear position in this place on the rules of the game, for everyone’s benefit. If the voter ID pilots became standard across the board, would electoral registration officers be told, “We don’t mind whether you want some sort of photo ID at a polling station.”? I do not think they will have to be given leeway in that sense, so I do not see why there would be leeway in this sense. With that in mind, I will not contribute any further but I do intend to press for a vote.
Alex Norris
I beg to move amendment 37, in clause 1, page 3, line 23, at end insert—
“(5A) An overseas elector’s declaration shall be disregarded for the purposes of registration to vote in a particular parliamentary election if it received by the registration officer after 5pm on the nineteenth day before the date of the poll at that election.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 12—Closing date for electoral registration applications by overseas electors—
“(1) The Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001 are amended as follows.
(2) In regulation 56, after paragraph (7), insert—
‘(8) This regulation does not apply to applications by overseas electors.’
(3) After regulation 56 insert—
‘56A Closing date for electoral registration applications by overseas electors
(1) The provisions in this regulation relate to applications to vote by post or proxy by overseas electors in parliamentary elections.
(2) An application by an overseas elector under paragraph 3(6) or (7) of Schedule 4 shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election and an application under paragraph 4(3) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at that election.
(3) An application under paragraph 3(1) or (2), or 6(7) or 7(4) of Schedule 4 shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at that election.
(4) An application under paragraph 4(1) or (2) or 6(8) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at the election for which it is made.
(5) An application under paragraph 7(7) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at the election for which it is made.
(6) An application under—
(a) paragraph 3(5)(a) of Schedule 4 by an elector to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 3(4) of that Schedule, or
(b) paragraph 7(9)(a) of Schedule 4 by a proxy to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 7(6) of that Schedule,
and a notice under paragraph 6(10) of that Schedule by an elector cancelling a proxy’s appointment shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election if it is received by the registration officer after—
(i) 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at that election in the case of an application by an elector who is entitled to vote by post to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 3(4) of Schedule 4, and
(ii) 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at that election in any other case.
(7) In computing a period of days for the purposes of this regulation, the same rules shall apply as in regulation 56.’
(4) The Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 2001 are amended as follows.
(5) In regulation 56, after paragraph (7), insert—
‘(8) This regulation does not apply to applications by overseas electors.’
(6) After regulation 56 insert—
‘56A Closing date for electoral registration applications by overseas electors
(1) The provisions in this regulation relate to applications to vote by post or proxy by overseas electors in parliamentary elections.
(2) An application by an overseas elector under paragraph 3(6) or (7) of Schedule 4 shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election and an application under paragraph 4(3) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at that election.
(3) An application under paragraph 3(1) or (2), or 6(7) or 7(4) of Schedule 4 shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at that election.
(4) An application under paragraph 4(1) or (2) or 6(8) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at the election for which it is made.
(5) An application under paragraph 7(7) of Schedule 4 shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at the election for which it is made.
(6) An application under—
(a) paragraph 3(5)(a) of Schedule 4 by an elector to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 3(4) of that Schedule, or
(b) paragraph 7(9)(a) of Schedule 4 by a proxy to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 7(6) of that Schedule,
and a notice under paragraph 6(10) of that Schedule by an elector cancelling a proxy’s appointment shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular parliamentary election if it is received by the registration officer after—
(i) 5 p.m. on the eighteenth day before the date of the poll at that election in the case of an application by an elector who is entitled to vote by post to be removed from the record kept under paragraph 3(4) of Schedule 4, and
(ii) 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the date of the poll at that election in any other case.
(7) In computing a period of days for the purposes of this regulation, the same rules shall apply as in regulation 56.’
(7) The Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2001 are amended as follows.
(8) In regulation 57, after paragraph (6), insert—
‘(7) This regulation does not apply to applications by overseas electors.’
(9) After regulation 57 insert—
‘57A Closing date for electoral registration applications by overseas electors
(1) The provisions in this regulation relate to applications to vote by post or proxy by overseas electors in parliamentary elections.
(2) An application under section 6(1) or (5), 8(6) or 9(4) of the 1985 Act shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular election if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the twenty-first day before the day of the poll at that election.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4) below, an application under section 7(1) or (2), 8(7) or 9(7) or (8) of the 1985 Act shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the twenty-first day before the day of the poll at the election for which is made.
(4) Paragraph (3) above shall not apply to an application which satisfies the requirements of either paragraphs (6) and (7) or paragraph (8) of regulation 55 above; and such an application shall be refused if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the thirteenth day before the day of the poll at the election for which it is made.
(5) An application under—
(a) section 6(4)(a) of the 1985 Act by an elector to be removed from the record kept under section 6(3) of that Act, or
(b) section 9(11)(a) of that Act by a proxy to be removed from the record kept under section 9(6) of that Act,
and a notice under section 8(9) of that Act by an elector cancelling a proxy’s appointment shall be disregarded for the purposes of a particular election if it is received by the registration officer after 5 p.m. on the twenty-first day before the date of the poll at that election.
(6) In computing a period of days for the purposes of this regulation, the same rules shall apply as in regulation 57.’”
Alex Norris
Hopefully, by now, the pattern of what the Opposition are trying to do is emerging. From the beginning of last week’s sitting, my angst has been that we will put a burden on electoral registration officers, who are already overburdened—as they have been telling us—and who will struggle to meet the requirements that we are putting on them. What we are doing will have unwitting consequences, and last week I started with an attempt to phase it in gently. Obviously, I was not successful. I have just tried to ask for the burden of proof to be put on the individual, rather than the electoral registration officer. I have not been successful there either, so I have now fallen back on my final line, which is about time limits. I really think this is important, and I hope I can secure support on it because, as I say, while what we are doing is important, it is going to have unintended consequences.
What would amendment 37 and new clause 12 do, taken together? Simply, they would push back the deadline to register by one week to allow electoral administrators more time to process applications. In my view, the current timescale of registration deadlines does not work, and the amendment seeks to improve it. There is already concern among those who administer our elections, and more widely, about the timetable for postal ballot papers to go out to overseas voters, which is not easy. As much as we think that overseas voters are citizens like any others—which of course they are—in practical terms, it is harder to get something to and from them than it is to get something to and from me.
If we do not make the timetable amendment, people will be glad that the Bill has become law and enthusiastic that they are going to have a chance to vote, but we will have marched those people up the hill only for them to miss out for practical and probably quite unavoidable reasons, and they will rightly be disappointed. We know that that already happens and the more we increase the volume of applications, the more we increase the likelihood that it will happen.
At the moment, I do not think that there will be sufficient time for the EROs to process applications, certainly the later ones. Letting the deadline fall back by a week is a practical solution and, I think, a good idea. At the moment, registration is set at polling day minus 12. Amendment 37 and new clause 12 would set registration at polling day minus 19, with similar extensions for proxy and postal voting of 13 days and 18 days respectively. That makes sense, because otherwise the deadline is too tight, as experience shows. That difficulty will only be increased by the volume, as I say, and the work that we are going to ask EROs to do will make it challenging.
I hope that we are mindful of this point, because we have said throughout last week’s sitting and this week’s sitting how much we appreciate the work of our electoral administrators. We now need to heed the call to give them more time.
Christian Matheson
I do not intend to speak for long on this amendment, because my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North has introduced it very well. It makes sense. It is not about making things harder, but about bearing in mind the administrative burden on electoral registration officers at a critical time.
In the 2017 general election, certain constituencies and polling registration areas had severe problems with the rush of late domestic voter registrations, with voters turning up at the polling station thinking that they had registered but finding that they were apparently not on the register. Therefore, it is sensible to allow electoral registration officers more time to make the registration.
The amendment is the result of a close examination of the current overseas registration deadlines. There is widespread concern that there is insufficient time in the parliamentary elections timetable for postal ballot papers to be sent out and returned by overseas voters in time to be counted on polling day. Indeed, many overseas voters were faced with the disappointing scenario in which they registered too late for their postal vote to be received and returned in time to be included in the count.
In many cases, there is simply insufficient time for the ERO to process last-minute applications and check for previous revisions of registers. A practical solution is needed because that is a recurring issue. Proper consideration needs to be given to the election timetable to allow time for a significant volume of applications to be processed. People who make applications close to the deadline should still be able to cast their vote.
At the EU referendum in June 2016 and the UK parliamentary election in 2015, the processing and checking of overseas applications was a challenge. EROs tell us that they received a high volume of applications in an intense timeframe in the lead-up to each vote, due to the renewal laws.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North said, the present registration deadline is polling day minus 12. His amendment seeks to add a week to that to make it polling day minus 19. Similar extensions are proposed for proxy voting and postal voting. The Bill will allow all eligible British citizens who have lived in the UK and who are now living overseas to be given a lifelong right to vote in parliamentary elections. In view of the time limit being removed, consideration needs to be given to the deadline being brought forward for overseas electors to register, to allow sufficient time to process applications.
As we discussed in the debates about previous amendments, under the proposed legislation, EROs will carry out the complex tasks of checking previous revisions of registers, researching past residents—we have even heard of them having to go to the borough archivist to get verification—finding documentary evidence and verifying the residence of an overseas voter who may have lived abroad for decades. Subsequently, EROs must receive and verify the appropriate attestations.
In addition, sufficient time must be required for any absent voter arrangements to be fully put in place so that overseas electors can cast their vote at the election or referendum in time for it to be counted. My hon. Friend’s amendment would provide EROs with an extra week within which to process the applications. I am sure that the Department’s guidance would be that overseas electors should register as soon as possible rather than leave it to the last minute, but that problem is prevalent among domestic voters as well, as I have mentioned.
Once again, we ask the Committee to consider the wellbeing of our hard-working electoral registration officers and their staff. The Bill places a tremendous amount of pressure on civil servants at a local level. Government cuts are already pushing electoral registration officers to their limit, as I referenced in the Committee’s proceedings last week. The amendment gives respect to our electoral registration officers. It is good common sense to provide officers with the time to do their job properly and uphold the integrity of the register. The difficulties that EROs currently experience in registering overseas voters under the 15-year rule will only increase.
Chloe Smith
I will keep this brief. The Government absolutely recognise the time constraints that can arise when dealing with last-minute applications to register to vote, particularly those from overseas electors because, as we have already discussed, there is more toing and froing involved. For example, the Cabinet Office has fully funded the additional costs faced by local authorities for processing overseas electors and, indeed, all new burdens resulting from the introduction of individual electoral registration in 2014.
We have also already amended the timetable for parliamentary elections in order to maximise the time available for postal vote packs to be printed, posted and returned. It is the standing position to encourage electors to register as early as possible ahead of the registration deadline. I briefly mentioned earlier that introducing online re-registration would help somewhat because that will reduce time elsewhere in the process.
Taken together, those measures seek to avoid a peak of last-minute applications. However, in response to the amendments, I return to an argument that I have used elsewhere. I do not think it would be right to create another difference between overseas electors and UK resident ones, which is what would happen if different registration deadlines are set for both groups. Consequent to that, the process would run into the challenges articulated by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood, which is that there are other parts of the electoral timetable. He called it “electoral Jenga” and I think I might use that phrase myself. It is correct to say that a change in one part of the timetable would affect other important parts of it. That is simply how our democracy has to fit together in those final weeks. I would not want that to be put in peril or for a different approach to overseas and domestic electors to put anybody at a disadvantage.
I will also briefly point out a technical error in the proposed new clause. I never like saying such things to a Back-Bench Member. I know that the hon. Member for Nottingham North will have worked late into the night to pull this together, and I cast no aspersion on him or his efforts, but I think he might have intended to refer to the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2008, which revoked those made in 2001. Given that the proposed new clause is technically flawed, I urge the Committee not to support it.
Alex Norris
I thank everyone for their contributions. To answer the substantive point from the hon. Member for Beckenham, the amendment relates to working days, because that is the language of the timetable. If 19 working days became 17 because of a weekend, the proposal would still get my support.
With regard to the hon. Member for Kingswood, we are lucky to have two successive Ministers for the constitution who really take this issue seriously, because that is not a given. I can understand that for the vast the majority of people this stuff might seem a bit dry, but it is exceptionally important. It is also exceptionally important that those who lead take it seriously, and that is greatly appreciated.
I slightly disagree, however, with the hon. Gentleman’s point, despite his neat reference to “electoral Jenga”. The one thing we know about that tangle of wires, which is how I would characterise it, is that many processes are going on simultaneously. I do not think that the proposed change would impact on the strand relating to the nomination of candidates. The example has been given of an individual whose only reason for seeking registration is their enthusiasm for a candidate whose place on the ballot is not secure, but that is a tiny part of a vaster whole and it would not be good to let it injure the whole process.
All electoral administrators will appreciate the kind words of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire. However, I gently express my fear that, although we have been keen to support them and their hard work, I do not think that the Bill reflects that support. We have looked continually at the reports of 2016 and 2017, and at the survey work done elsewhere, but we have not followed their suggestions.
I am grateful for the Minister’s gentle point about my typo. For that reason, I will not press the new clause to a vote. However, I still think that it would have taken the Bill in the right direction, and I ask Committee members to reflect on it.
The Minister regularly says that she does not want a distinction to be made between overseas electors and those living in the UK. I understand that, but that would not be the case—and nobody has suggested that it should be—when it comes to the substantive issue of their participation in democracy. In practical terms, however, there is an obvious difference between the two groups—some thousands of miles’ worth in some cases. If we stopped people in the square to ask them whether overseas electors should be given more time to make an application and to receive and return a voting pack, I think that most of them would think that a sensible idea.
I will not press the amendment to a vote, because of the very good reason that has been pointed out. However, I hope that colleagues will continue to reflect on it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: 3, in clause 1, page 3, line 34, after “name” insert “and date of birth”.—(Christian Matheson.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Overseas Electors Bill (First sitting)
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to say a few words under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon made clear that there are anomalies in our current electoral system. She referred to developments in Wales, but several hundred thousand young people have already voted in an election, including 16 and 17-year-olds: the Scottish referendum, which was on a different franchise to the referendum we had on the European Union.
The numbers of people who would be affected by moving from a 15-year threshold for 16 and 17-year-olds to an indefinite threshold would be very low. By definition, it may be only hundreds or even fewer, but there is an important principle at stake about the future of the country. I do not want to reopen the debate about the EU referendum—I am sure you would call me to order if I did, Mr Robertson—but by definition young people have a longer interest in the future of our country than older people, because we are all mortal. Therefore, I support the amendment. It is also supported by many organisations that campaign to widen our democracy. On that basis, I am happy to give my support.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Robertson. Yesterday, I was—I think—next door with a delegation of young people of various school ages from Nottingham who wanted to talk to me about hate crime. They had taken part in research under the auspices of Nottingham Citizens, our chapter of Citizens UK, and pulled together what they felt was the hate crime situation in schools. They wanted to see me and my colleagues, and it was made clear to me that while I may have been the host of the meeting, they would be chairing it. They wanted to take control. That is a good example of the bright young people of my city, who are reflective of the country, and I thought it was a nice way to begin giving my support for the amendment.
This issue is of real substance and of its time, and it is time that hon. Members did something. We have the perfect opportunity here to dip our toe, as has been said.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
My hon. Friend raised hate crime at Prime Minister’s questions. Am I to think that he was inspired to do so by young people who do not currently have the vote?
Alex Norris
Yes, absolutely. They asked me directly how I intended to act on their behalf, and I said I would give them a voice. Today was the start of that, and I think we are close to securing a meeting with the Home Secretary, which will be one way to do it. I will come shortly to what that has told me about votes at 16—this is not just an interesting story, but one that is pertinent to the amendment, which I know you will be keen on, Mr Robertson.
It is probably helpful that no colleagues from the Scottish National party are on the Committee as I admit this—I hope colleagues from Plaid will not tell them. Like other Committee members, I canvassed during the Scottish referendum. I did so because I love the Union and think it is important. I had a say and, like many others, I went to express it. Actually—I am probably in relatively good company in this room, if not in any other—I enjoy canvassing and am a keen supporter of it. I am probably not supposed to admit that.
I enjoy talking to people on the doorsteps, but I really like talking to—[Interruption.] In fact, I will go even further: one period of canvassing I particularly enjoyed was a summer by-election in Norwich North—I think it was in 2010. The weather was tremendous and we canvassed all day and went out at night. It was fantastic—other than the result, I had a tremendous couple of weeks. This is not a story of where I have been canvassing, which is everywhere, but in that referendum I enjoyed talking to 16 and 17-year-olds because they took the issue seriously and obviously understood what a seismic moment it was and the importance of reflecting on their futures and what they wanted. Frankly, it was too important to leave to those older than them and they wanted to have their say. I thought that referendum was an excellent model and hoped we would roll it out across all elections. I still do.
I find it regrettable that, when we talk about votes at 16 and 17, we get into this tennis match of what 16 and 17-year-olds can and cannot do—whether they can drive a car, get married, serve in the armed forces or pay taxes—which I do not think adds up to a particularly persuasive case either way. It just makes for a bit of a fudge that means it goes into the too-hard-to-deal-with basket.
There is one compelling reason for votes at 16 and 17, which is why I will be glad to continue to advocate it: it is the last chance we have to talk to a young person when in education, employment or training about what voting is and why it matters. When I canvass—some of this will relate to the deprivation and challenges in my community—in any session anywhere, people will say, “I just don’t know anything about it. It’s a long way from anything I know about. I wouldn’t know how to make up my mind. I am not going to participate.” That is a significant group of people. It is characterised as apathy, but it is not. It is our failure rather than theirs because we have been unable to demonstrate in a non-partisan way what an election is. We have been unable to demonstrate that it will not be scary to cast a ballot, and that everyone has to decide what is right for them in their life and there is no right or wrong answer in that sense. Where better to do that than in the last couple of years of education?
Christian Matheson
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I have heard a suggestion that some adults do not vote because they are too scared—they find it intimidating because they believe that they do not know how to go to a polling station and cast a vote. My hon. Friend seems to suggest that, by incorporating education into the voting process, we would encourage people to vote throughout the rest of their lives.
Alex Norris
I absolutely agree. Letting a person cross the threshold for the first time is a good way of dispelling some of the fears and barriers, and good for creating a culture and a habit of voting for life. That would be a positive thing, however people choose to use that ballot. The point I raised in Prime Minister’s questions today was that the report on hate crime made it clear that young people in my city did not know what it was. I do not mean that they did not know about positive relationships—I do fear for my community on that—but technically they did not know whether the words that they heard banging around, whether from older siblings or on the television, were being used lawfully or unlawfully. Again, I felt that that was a failure on our part to skill people up to do that, and this issue fits into the same category. The best thing about this measure is that the majority of people would, at some point in that period, experience the practical application of a vote. They would be able not just to learn in the classroom but to actually do it, which would be really positive.
I will conclude with a quote about this from someone in a far more esteemed position than mine. I think she is entirely right. She is the former chair of the all-party parliamentary group on youth affairs. The year was 2015, and she said:
“Voting is a habit that is formed early and we ought to treat it as such…It is important that we take…a progressive stance on these matters.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2015; Vol. 597, c. 527-532.]
That came not from Nottingham North but from Norwich North, and I desperately hope that the Minister feels the same today and will support this important amendment.
Christian Matheson
What a great pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. You and I have a shared interest in horse-racing, although I have not seen you at Chester racecourse recently. I was there twice over the summer, and you are more than welcome if ever you choose to venture to Chester which, of course, has the oldest racecourse in the country. I hope I may wander just a little in my opening remarks and say that it is a great pleasure to see my good friend, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire. He and I also have a shared interest, which is the wellbeing of the beautiful country of Colombia. I think he has personal connections there, and I have an interest because of the plight of trade unionists and civil society in Colombia. He and I will continue to work together on that issue, just as we will work together on the Bill, and I congratulate him on the Bill, which has completed Second Reading and is now in Committee.
It is a pleasure to work with the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon. I have not worked with her before, but she has already earned a fine reputation in this place. Her speech was important thanks to her use of personal experiences to demonstrate the strength of her argument. The breadth and diversity of experience that hon. Members right across the patch bring to the House is one of its real strengths, and I welcome that.
I am a little surprised that the Bill has already reached this stage. It has leapfrogged other private Members’ Bills in a similar departmental area, and it secured a money resolution in the House last night. I do not decry that—once a Bill completes its Second Reading it is right for it be accorded a money resolution, and I am genuinely pleased for Friend the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire that the matter can proceed. I suggest to Conservative Members that the Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan), should also be given a money resolution.
Turning to amendment 1, I believe that all hon. Members agree that no area of electoral law is more important than the franchise—who gets to vote, and who is able to participate in our democracy—because it underpins the democracy that underpins this country and all that is good in it. I welcome this opportunity to discuss in detail the intricacies of the Bill and point Ministers towards areas where our democracy could and should be strengthened.
Labour supports diversity. British citizens now live all over the world, strengthening the multiculturalism of our country. I talked earlier about the experience of the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, and British citizens living abroad can bring their experience back to the UK if they return. We should project British values abroad, although that is not under discussion at the moment. Overseas electors play a significant role in providing a close connection not only to our European neighbours but to countries across the world, and we must continue to encourage that valuable connection.
The Bill denies overseas British citizens aged 16 and 17 a vote. It states:
“A person is entitled to vote as an elector at a parliamentary election in a constituency if…on the relevant date, the person…qualifies as an overseas elector in respect of that constituency…is not subject to any legal incapacity to vote (age apart)…and…is a British citizen”.
It also requires that
“on the date of the poll, the person…is not subject to any legal incapacity to vote,…is a British citizen, and…is registered in a register of parliamentary electors for that constituency”.
As it stands, there is no mention of including young voters in the franchise. The Bill will further embed and entrench the current laws that prevent 16 and 17-year-olds either abroad or in the UK from engaging in parliamentary elections. The voting age for UK parliamentary elections remains 18 for the whole of the UK, and under current legislation a person must be 18 or over to vote in all elections in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I echo the words of the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, who spoke about consensus in the Opposition parties. Labour strongly believes in the right of our young people to engage in our parliamentary democracy through voting in general elections. The Bill gives us the opportunity to grant British 16 and 17-year-olds living overseas that right, and it could be a trailblazer or a test bed—I will come on to that in a little while. Amending the Bill to enfranchise 16 and 17-year-olds could be a first step in granting young people the vote. As this Bill is under consideration, it might be the opportunity that hon. Members are looking for. In a political atmosphere that is becoming increasingly unpredictable, one thing is certain: it is only a matter of time before votes are granted to 16 and 17-year-olds.
There is cross-party support for the change. Members from both sides of the House recognise the overwhelming importance of sustaining a modern democracy by listening to young people. To encourage greater numbers of young people to become lifelong, politically active and participatory citizens, institutional reform is required. I was very interested to hear the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North, who talked about the importance of engaging young people from an early age, and the effect it would have on them in terms of lifelong participation. I worry that we sometimes underestimate the danger, which I highlighted in my intervention, that members of the public are intimidated by voting because they were not given the opportunity to learn about it early in their lives.
The amendment is simple: with the value of the franchise in mind, we wish to include 16 and 17-year-olds in the changes proposed for the electoral franchise for overseas voters. The change would enfranchise young people of our nation, who deserve a say in the way we run our parliamentary democracy. The amendment would add 16 and 17-year-old voters to the individuals who can qualify as overseas voters. We believe that, in the context of any extension of the franchise to overseas voters, the views of British 16 and 17-year-olds living abroad must be included. It is our duty as representatives in Parliament to strengthen the foundations of our democracy by giving young people a say in the democratic process. The Bill presents us with the opportunity to grant young people, as politically engaged citizens, the ability to participate in parliamentary elections and to begin a life of political engagement. By doing so, we would strengthen our democracy and open it up to a generation of young people living overseas, who are currently excluded from our democratic process. We are talking about enfranchising a new generation of citizens through greater access to information, communication and self-empowerment. Young people, both overseas and in the UK, are becoming increasingly engaged politically. We cannot continue to deny them access to our parliamentary democracy.
The case for votes at 16 at all parliamentary elections is stronger than ever before, particularly given the mood of young people post-Brexit. We hear stories that the majority of senior citizens voted to exit the European Union while the majority of young people voted to remain, and that an even greater majority of people between 16 and 18 would have voted to remain if they had been given the chance. As we all know, there is a real sense of division and discord in the country. It is greatly magnified or amplified among young people because 16 and 17-year-olds were not allowed to take part in that vote, and they felt that their future was being decided by others—a future in which they have a greater stake, because they have more of it to come. There is a real sense of grievance.
Young people who are British citizens, especially those living overseas in the European Union, feel that their future has been decided for them by another generation. Votes at 16 for young overseas voters is an essential part of securing votes for life. I am interested to know what the Minister and the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire think about extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, given their party’s insistence on the importance of granting votes for life to our overseas voters. If that is truly a priority for the Tory party, attention must be paid to educating and informing young people who are living abroad.
Engagement in political life should not be limited to people above the age of 18—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North hinted at that point. I am sure that the Government agree that involvement in politics from the age of 16 can only be beneficial for our young people, making them more likely to engage in politics throughout their lives. Young people overseas will of course bring the added dimension of a different experience to those living solely in the UK.
Alex Norris
I am enjoying the case that my hon. Friend is making. A greater proportion of 16 and 17-year-olds than 18 to 24-year-olds voted in the Scottish referendum, which perhaps shows that the connection to education had built a sense of participation and encouragement. Does he agree that we might benefit from that approach?
Christian Matheson
That is a concrete example. We need to look into the reasons why 16 and 17-year-olds voted in greater numbers than 18 to 24-year-olds. It also raises the slightly different issue of why 18 to 24-year-olds do not necessarily feel involved. Perhaps they do not feel an attachment; perhaps they do not feel that it is relevant. We always scratch our heads and worry about that. It could well be that, because they did not start getting involved early enough in democratic processes, we have already lost them. My hon. Friend makes a very valid point—unfortunately, it throws up as many questions as answers, because we need to look more carefully at why previously young people did not feel that politics was for them, and why they seemed to embrace the Scottish referendum in particular.
I was never a true believer in votes at 16; I am a convert, which is perhaps why I am attacking the subject with so much zeal. It was the experience of the Scottish referendum that sealed the deal for me.
Christian Matheson
As a Cheshireman I shall seek out my crossbow forthwith, but let us not go down that road. In addition to the parties I have mentioned, Plaid Cymru and the Green party are fully supportive of extending the franchise. Even senior politicians in the Conservative party, including the former First Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green), and the leader of the Scottish Conservative party, are fully paid-up members of the votes at 16 club. Surely that also means that they are fully paid-up members of the overseas votes at 16 club, which is the issue under consideration. It is time the Conservatives recognised the need to update the current voting franchise to reflect the modern make up of British society, in which 16 and 17-year-olds are politically engaged, educated and aware enough to make informed decisions about the political environment.
Our country is well overdue a change to its voting laws. In 2004, the Electoral Commission published a review of the voting age, which concluded that it should remain the same “for the time being.” It recommended, however, that the situation be reviewed in five to seven years, and I will return to that issue. The commission qualified that by stating that
“circumstances may change the context significantly over the next few years. In particular, citizenship teaching may improve the social awareness and responsibility of young people.”
That has certainly been the case, as our young people are better informed than ever, thanks to access to the internet and social media. Although fake news and disinformation pervade, young people are becoming more adept at spotting that and are becoming more critical, we hope, about what they read, which is all part of a political education.
In 2006, the Power commission published its final report “Power to the People”, which supported that conclusion. The commission drew up a set of proposals and recommendations to increase political participation, including lowering the voting and candidacy age to 16, with the exception of candidacy for the House of Lords. I have no idea what the minimum age is for the House of Lords.
Christian Matheson
I think that is a little bit much. If those arguments apply to domestic 16 and 17-year-olds, should they not also apply to overseas voters? If a review is to take place—as I have said, in 2004 the Electoral Commission called for one—is not the Bill the perfect opportunity and vehicle for that review, and is not clause 1 the perfect clause with which to undertake it?
The Power commission explained the recommendations, stating:
“Our own experience and evidence suggests that just as with the wider population, when young people are faced with a genuine opportunity to involve themselves in a meaningful process that offers them a real chance of influence, they do so with enthusiasm and with responsibility.”
There is absolutely no reason why that should apply to UK-based 16 and 17-year olds but not to 16 and 17-year-old UK citizens who live overseas. The report went on to state:
“We recognise that few people take an interest in a sphere of life or an area from which they have been deliberately excluded. Reducing the voting age to sixteen would obviously be one way of reducing the extent of such exclusion for many thousands of young people, and of increasing the likelihood of their taking an interest, and taking part, in political and democratic debate.”
Those recommendations are increasingly relevant in a Parliament where only 2% of MPs are aged under 30, despite 16% of the UK’s population being aged 18 to 29. I confess that I do not know what percentage of the UK’s overseas citizens are aged under 30; I will try to dig that out. Young voices are consistently under-represented in our politics. In the period from 1979 to 2017, the average age of MPs at elections has been consistently around 50 years old—not that I am complaining, of course, about a candidate being 50 years old.
Alex Norris
I beg to move amendment 33, in clause 1, page 2, line 7, at end insert
“and
(c) the person satisfies at least one of the following conditions—
(i) he or she was included in a register of parliamentary electors at some time in the past fifteen years;
(ii) he or she was resident in the United Kingdom at some point in the last fifteen years;
(iii) he or she is a member of the United Kingdom armed forces;
(iv) he or she is employed in the service of the Crown;
(v) he or she is employed by the British Council;
(vi) he or she is employed by a United Kingdom public authority;
(vii) he or she is employed by a designated humanitarian agency;
(viii) he or she is the spouse or civil partner of a person mentioned in sub-paragraphs (iii) to (vii) above and is residing outside the United Kingdom to be with his or her spouse or civil partner.
(1A) The Minister for the Cabinet Office or the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument define ‘United Kingdom public authority’ and ‘designated humanitarian agency’ for the purposes of subsection (1)(c).
(1B) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1A) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 34, in clause 1, page 2, line 9, leave out “in the past” and insert “since 1 January 2004”.
Amendment 35, in clause 1, page 2, line 17, leave out “in the past” and insert “since 1 January 2004”.
Alex Norris
Let me say, in the spirit of what the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon said, that this is my first amendment; it is certainly my first sole amendment, so I am very much looking forward to discussing it. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire on securing a private Member’s Bill, getting it to this stage and even securing the support of the Cabinet Office in drafting it. He has done very well indeed. In a previous debate, we did not get to hear some of the broader substance, because it perhaps was not in line with the amendment, but I suggest gently that it might be in line with the amendment that I have tabled, because I am not seeking to change the meaning of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, and if I am missing something of the meaning of his Bill, this might be a good moment for me to understand that.
It may not be widely known that this is the second private Member’s Bill Committee of the day for me, as it is for my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester, the Minister and even the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), who was so deprived of my contributions this morning that he has joined us in the audience to listen now—I for one greatly appreciate it. At the moment, we cannot make any contributions in that Bill Committee, because we are stuck in parliamentary stasis. I explain this to everyone I see now. People think that we are from a different planet—to a certain extent, they already did—because for 15 consecutive Wednesdays we have met here at 10 am, or 9.30 am for the first few sittings, but every time, we discuss only a motion to adjourn. It is very sad to see that Bill stymied in that way, but I am not the sort of person to be jealous that this Bill has got through and managed to jump the queue ahead of that one. I believe that a rising tide raises all boats and I believe in private Members’ business, so I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire.
Mike Gapes
Could there not be some mechanism whereby dates of birth and birth certificates were looked at, to see where the child was born or where the parents were resident at the time of the birth? Would not that data be of assistance?
Alex Norris
Anyone who has ever been interested in genealogy knows there are a broad range of ways to try to establish where people were at certain points in time. The issue is that with every level of extra difficulty, the whole system gets much harder. Under the current rule, the association says it takes two hours to legitimately verify one voter. Every layer added on top of that will only make that longer. There comes a point at which we are asking too much.
Instead, the amendment would stand the 15-year rule as it does today, so that those people would register as they normally do. That would take two hours each time, but we are managing to do that now, so presumably we can be confident that with the right resources we can continue to do so. Then, every year, that starting register of anyone who joins would carry on. Those grandfather rights, as the lawyers call them, would grow across the years and we would get to what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire seeks, but in a way that would be practically deliverable by our electoral administrators, who are pressed.
Layla Moran
How many people does the hon. Gentleman think that would exclude? We are talking about large numbers of people who have been here for far more than 15 years. Does not the amendment stop their right to vote completely?
Alex Norris
I cannot find the numbers; perhaps the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire may help when he responds. I will be clear because I make no attempt at subterfuge: the amendment would mean that the Bill would not enhance the position of people not currently eligible to vote. Trying to get to that position is very difficult to the point of being an incredible undue burden.
Mike Gapes
I declare an interest—at least currently, until I am purged by Momentum—as the honorary president of Labour International. Members of Labour International, who are active members of the Labour party, have been living in Brussels or France—I was with one in Madrid last week. They have been living outside this country for more than 15 years—in some cases 17, 18, 20 or 22 years—and had the right to vote. In those cases, surely that information would be available already, so I cannot see why they would not be permitted to have a vote, even though they left the UK some 22 or 25 years ago.
Alex Norris
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s contribution. Yesterday, we heard from the hon. Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) about an individual just like that, who was of strong Labour stock, just like us, who would not be included. I understand that, but I have to go back to the point that although they may have had a registration in the past, verifying that is exceptionally difficult for the registration officer.
My hon. Friend mentioned using other data, such as birth data, but every layer that is added to it adds exceptional complications. We might sit around and say what a good idea that is, but in practice it would be really difficult and would put an onerous burden on already hard-pressed registration officers. For that reason, my amendment meets in the middle. Perhaps it is imperfect, but it achieves the long-term aims of the Bill in a practical way.
Christian Matheson
I do not intend to speak at length on these three amendments. Amendments 34 and 35, which my hon. Friend was just talking about, talk about the practical difficulties in the administration of overseas electors. My office sought advice from one of the electoral registration officers in my region who is known to me. They talked about the difficulties of finding information to verify the individual.
Council tax records will go back only five or six years, and they do not always keep historic electoral registers, so if somebody had moved away 20 or more years ago, the manager in the electoral registration office would not know how to start going about finding their information. The view of the electoral registration officer who my office spoke to was that they would simply have to start taking people at face value when they applied to be an international voter, because there would be no real way to tell if somebody was eligible or not, and they do not have the resources or the time to do that research.
The current process for an overseas registered voter is complex. It takes ages to verify somebody because the office has to contact the local archivist. Many offices are now paperless. There used to be 15 years’ worth of voting registration documents in this office in my region, but now they do not have any storage space for the voting records, so they have to call an archivist to get the information they need about whether the person was on the register, which can take many days.
They have also found issues with boundary changes, which cause difficulties in figuring out someone’s ward and polling district. That is important because the registers are based on polling districts, but they might disappear as the wards are rearranged, which makes it harder to track down where the individual polling district is.
Chloe Smith
I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to add further clarity. Essentially, the answer remains simple: all new burdens that arise from this Bill will be funded. I can also reassure the Committee that I am in close touch with the Association of Electoral Administrators, the Electoral Commission, of course, and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives. They are all part of the wider community of registration officers and their colleagues in the relevant parts of local government who do such hard and important work for our society and whom we as a Government seek to support every step of the way.
On future reform, the UK Government, in partnership with the Governments of Scotland and Wales, are seeking to alleviate some of the pressures that relate to the canvass process in our electoral systems. That is another good modernisation opportunity and it will also relieve the pressures that registration officers can find themselves under from some of the aged processes in our electoral law for registering people. I am absolutely in the business of supporting our registration officers, finding ways to help them in their work and, specifically in the case of this Bill, ensuring that any new burdens are met.
Let me turn to some of the smaller changes proposed in the Bill. They are smaller compared with the big point of principle, but of course they are not small at all to an administrator whose job it is to operate the system. I can confirm that we will reduce the amount of information that an elector needs to supply in a renewal of registration. We are going to give EROs a more streamlined system for processing those renewals and recommend email as a method of communication between the ERO and the elector. There are a number of other ways in which we can help streamline those processes so that the Bill can achieve its really important goal—that big principle—while also creating a system that EROs will find operable and easy to play their part in as we extend the franchise to where it should be extended.
Alex Norris
I am grateful to colleagues on both sides of the Committee for contributing to an interesting discussion. We have probably set a good shape for the rest of our consideration of the Bill. We have had a discussion about the pragmatic versus the purist. I am not a daft lad—I hope Members have noticed that—so I can read a room, and I get a clear sense that we want a pure and full implementation. I will make my remarks with that in mind.
I was excited to hear the Minister say that there is no desire for gradual or partial admittance or delay, and that if someone is turned away from a polling station and does not come back, that constitutes a denial. I will hold her to that in future sittings and beyond. I was glad to hear the positive messages about resourcing, but we need to understand that things start from the context of deficit: University of East Anglia research from 2016 says that 43% of EROs have suffered real-terms cuts, and in the EU referendum only one quarter of the 254 local authority electoral authorities felt sufficiently resourced to do their jobs. When those new resources are introduced, it must be understood that the existing resources are not sufficient. We have clearly heard today the Minister’s desire to provide resources to electoral registration officers, and I am excited about that.
I hope there will be clear support for the 33 recommendations in the association’s report, which it produced after the 2017 general election, on how to improve elections. If they receive that support, EROs will be able to do their jobs properly and that would enrich all elections. In that spirit, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Christian Matheson
I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 1, page 2, line 39, at end insert
“‘resident’ must be defined in regulations made by the Minister for the Cabinet Office or the Secretary of State”.
The amendment considers the definition of “resident” in the Bill. The ambiguity surrounding the notion of residency is critical to the future integrity of our franchise. There needs to be a comprehensive and lengthy discussion about the definition of residency before the Government can even consider enfranchising millions of overseas electors who would be eligible under the new provisions. A clear definition of residency is central to the Bill, and a multiplicity of complex and ambiguous cases that remain within the definition must be resolved before any progress is made.
There is no clear definition of electoral residence. Currently, residence is understood to mean a considerable degree of permanence. That means that a person with two homes who spends the same amount of time in each can legally register at both addresses. I fall into that category as a Member of Parliament with a flat in London and my primary home in Chester. I think a lot of hon. Members will be in a similar position.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 6 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the seasonal workers pilot scheme that we have introduced. The horticultural sector is a particular British success story. Over the last 20 years we have seen a significant growth in soft fruit production: an increase of more than 130%. We have made clear that we are piloting the scheme and will assess how it will work. Obviously we will announce further details of the overall immigration policy that we have proposed, but we will ensure that we recognise the needs of the British economy.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman has raised a very important issue about hate crime, and we have been taking a number of steps over recent years. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has published an updated action plan, and I suggest that the hon. Gentleman and those young people meet the Home Secretary to discuss how that action plan can help to address the issues raised.
Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill (Thirteenth sitting)
Alex Norris ExcerptsWednesday 12th September 2018
(5 years, 8 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill 2017-19 View all Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill 2017-19 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Notices of Amendments as at 4 July 2018 - (5 Jul 2018)
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
Thank you, Mr Owen. Over the weekend and on Monday, I read coverage relating to this vote. One national newspaper quoted the Minister from our meeting last week, and the Committee was characterised as obscure. I am not sure whether it is a promotion or a demotion, after 13 or so weeks, to have reached the ranks of obscure. When we are still here in March, as the hon. Member for Glasgow East said, I wonder whether we will become veterans. I have not been here very long, but I wanted to become a veteran, so that will be very exciting.
What is at the nub of this and what saddens me about it is that our politics should never seek to emulate American politics. I do not think that the Americanisation of British culture in general is a great thing. However, if anyone watches American politics now, as I know lots of people in this building do with great interest and sometimes horror, they see is that everything—whether it is the colour of the napkins or the electoral system— becomes a partisan arm wrestle. Everything, whether it is appointing judges or whatever it is, becomes an exercise in narrow advantage.
I am willing to take much of what the right hon. Member for Forest of Dean says at face value. The intentions at the outset, many years ago now, were very honourable. However, this has now become—without doubt—an exercise in political advantage: “the Government want this process to happen; it would help them. We do not want it to happen; it would not help us.”
If someone is a student of British politics, as I know lots of people in this room are, they will know that that has never been the way in which we have done our boundaries. Our boundaries and the way in which we have dealt with this system has been characterised by fair play and equity. Of course, I understand that we do not want to have ballooned constituencies in some parts of the country and tiny ones in others, but at the same time we want conversations about how to set a fair system—one that gives people as equal a voice as is physically possible—without tilting the scales one way or the other, because that goes against British values and our democracy. And whether we like it or not, we are in that territory now. Nothing could make that clearer than the fact that the vote on this issue is now being kicked further down the road, because the Government are not sure that they will win it.
Mr Harper
I am reflecting on this from memory, so I hope the Committee will forgive me if I have not got it quite right, but I think the hon. Gentleman is putting a gloss on the way that this process perhaps worked in the past. I seem to remember that in 1968 the then Prime Minister, Lord Wilson, brought forward to the House a set of boundary proposals that were not advantageous to the Labour party and he asked the House to vote them down. As it happened, it did not work because he lost the 1970 general election. Nevertheless, the idea that this process has somehow always been conducted in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests is perhaps not an accurate reading of the historical record.
Alex Norris
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention; his recollection of 1968 may well be stronger than mine, for obvious reasons. Perhaps I am putting a gloss on things and maybe we are looking back, as we tend to do, through sepia or whatever, but the point is that we have never been more partisan and red state/blue state than we are today, and this process is the perfect example of that.
So for goodness’ sake, let us kill this process off. We have got complete recognition that something needs to change—the boundaries need to change—but we have got this zombie hangover from the last Parliament in front of us; well, it is not in front of us today, but it will be in many months’ time. Of course I do not mean my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton, but the boundary review.
Let us put this boundary review to bed. Let us get down to discussing what I think are pretty good first principles in this Bill and let us get to where we all want to be. It will reflect on all of us better; it will also be better for our mental wellbeing, I suspect. Ideally—this is my major goal—we might have an outcome before the baby of my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith), who has been born during these proceedings, goes to university.
David Linden
I forgot to say in my remarks that the first week back I will not be here, because I will have a second child by that point. In the course of this Bill Committee, two children will have been born and the money resolution has not been granted. I give advance notice and my apologies.
Alex Norris
I am sure that we all want to pass on our congratulations to the hon. Gentleman. Yes, let us at least get this done before those children are at university, if not at school.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Owen.
What we see here is an anti-democratic process. It was 1 December 2017 when this Bill passed its Second Reading, so we are now more than nine months down the line and we have been meeting ever since, because the Government will not grant us a money resolution.
We have been given various reasons why we have not been given a money resolution. We were told that the boundary commissions’ proposals were coming and that it was best to wait for them to arrive, so that both matters could be considered together. Now we are being told that there are some complex resolutions and instruments that need to be prepared for that to happen. Surely the Government should have been ready for that. They knew when the boundary commissions would report. The proposals are the same as they were a year ago. The Government must have known what was coming—what landed on their desk cannot have been a big surprise—so it is no excuse for them to say they need more time to prepare and introduce those instruments.
Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) Bill (Twelfth sitting)
Alex Norris ExcerptsWednesday 5th September 2018
(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
It is very good to see you in the Chair after the summer recess, Ms Dorries, and to see colleagues back to discuss the Bill. I have just been reflecting—just looking at the motion to adjourn—on what we were talking about when we broke up for the summer, and it might be helpful if I update the Committee, having had a look at the information from the Boundary Commission for England. The commission set out—I think I referred to this before Parliament rose for the summer—that it planned to present its report to the Government on or around 5 September, and it confirmed that that would indeed be done today. It has made it clear that, because of what the law says, it is the Government who must lay that report before Parliament, so assuming that it delivers its report today, which it has confirmed it will, and the other boundary commissions do so, the Government will then at least be in a position to lay those reports before Parliament and to lay out an indication of the timetable.
For today’s purposes, I think it is a bit unrealistic and a bit unreasonable, given that the reports will have been received only today—they may not yet have actually been received—to expect the Minister to say anything at all today about timing; I therefore have no criticism at all of the Minister. But, clearly, after today the Government will at least be in a position to reflect on the reports and consider when to bring them forward. Whether or not the Minister sets that out in a future sitting of the Committee, I am sure that colleagues will ask the Leader of the House—I understand that the reports will be sent to her—about the timetable. That will then give us the opportunity to reflect on whether this Committee can make any further progress other than just discussing a motion to adjourn. I hope that that is helpful to the Committee.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
The right hon. Gentleman said that the report would go to the Leader of the House. My understanding is that it now goes to the Cabinet Office—that was changed last week—so it might be helpful if the Minister, in her reply, says how quickly the Cabinet Office intends to publish it or whether it intends to sit on it.
Mr Harper
Of course, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government are indivisible and all Ministers speak for the Government, so wherever the report ends up in Government, the Government collectively will be in a position to reflect on the contents and then set out the next steps. As I said, it would be unreasonable to expect the Minister to be able to do that today, not having had the chance to reflect on the report. She may be in a position to do so next week; I do not know. But even if she does not, the Leader of the House will no doubt be asked about the report, even if it is not specifically the Leader of the House who reflects on it. I think that I am right in saying, if it is indeed going to the Cabinet Office, that the senior Cabinet Office Minister, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, has questions in the House next week, so it will be open to him or one of his team, in which my hon. Friend is a Minister, to answer those questions if they are put before them in the House. Therefore, in the not too distant future, we may have at least a little clarity about timing, which will then enable us to not have to keep coming here every week just to talk about the reports having been laid. We will be in more of a substantive position to go forward. I hope that is helpful to the Committee.
Oral Answers to Questions
Alex Norris Excerpts(5 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
It was a great privilege to attend Armed Forces Day in Llandudno on Saturday; it was a fantastic celebration. Other events took place up and down the country, and it was a great opportunity to recognise the bravery and professionalism of our armed forces and the wonderful job that they do day in, day out for us, putting themselves on the line and making sacrifices for our safety. I am delighted that Salisbury and Scarborough will host the day in 2019 and 2020 respectively. Armed Forces Day will give people yet another reason to visit the great resort of Scarborough in 2020, and I certainly look forward to continuing to celebrate Armed Forces Day in the future and to joining my right hon. Friend in celebrating it in Scarborough.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister
I have not seen the details of the particular issue at the college that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. On the general point, I think it is important that we make sure that education—further education, higher education—is available to people and is available to people whatever their background, whatever their circumstances and, as I say, whatever their particular circumstances. I want to see a country where how far people go in life is about them, their talents and their willingness to work hard, not where they have come from and not what their circumstances are.