Procurement Bill [HL]

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

188: Clause 31, page 20, line 2, leave out “tendering procedure other than an open” and insert “flexible”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

192: Clause 32, page 21, line 3, leave out “tendering procedure other than an open” and insert “flexible”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

199: Clause 33, page 21, line 22, leave out “tendering procedure other than an open” and insert “flexible”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

209: Clause 34, page 22, line 8, leave out from “competitive” to end of line 9 and insert “flexible procedure may provide for the following suppliers to be excluded from participating in, or progressing as part of, the procedure—”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

210: Clause 34, page 22, line 10, leave out “a particular” and insert “suppliers that are not members of an appropriate”

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, we have a change of horse. By way of a health warning, my remarks do include mention of a considerable number of amendments. However, as a reassurance, and in the interests of brevity and the current buzzword—simplification—my speech is somewhat shorter now than it was at the beginning of the day.

A number of amendments are needed in Committee to ensure that the Bill functions appropriately. Clauses 34 to 39 introduce the new concept of dynamic markets and the new utilities dynamic markets. Existing dynamic purchasing systems are limited to providing commonly used goods and services that are generally available on the market, and therefore their scope is constrained. Examples of existing dynamic purchasing systems include Crown Commercial Services artificial intelligence, which enables public sector bodies to access services including machine learning and augmented decision-making. The new dynamic markets can be used for all procurements rather than just commonly used purchases. Dynamic markets will always remain open for new suppliers to join. This provides a great opportunity for all types of suppliers, including SMEs, to pre-qualify for work.

Amendments 210 to 212 and 217 to 219 would clarify that references to membership of a dynamic market in this context relate to membership of an appropriate dynamic market, or an appropriate part of such a dynamic market. This is defined in Amendment 222 as a dynamic market, or part thereof, that permits the award of the contract by the contracting authority.

Amendment 220 clarifies that a contracting authority must consider applications for membership of the dynamic market from suppliers that have asked to participate in a competition reserved for members of the dynamic market before excluding such suppliers from the competition. This is in addition to considering applications from suppliers that have submitted a tender as part of the competition.

Amendment 222 contains various definitions relevant to these amendments, including a new explanation of when a dynamic market is appropriate, as mentioned previously. It also contains the exemption from Clause 34 for concession contracts other than those that are also utilities contracts, which was previously in Clause 35.

Amendments 223 to 227, 229 to 231 and 233 are tidying-up amendments. Amendments 223, 230 and 233 would delete provisions that are now set out elsewhere.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, as I was saying, Amendments 223 to 227, 229 to 231 and 233 are tidying-up amendments. Amendments 223, 230 and 233 delete provisions that are now set out elsewhere. Amendment 224 clarifies that only contracting authorities may award public contracts using dynamic markets, while Amendment 225 reflects the terminology of “participation in”, rather than “membership of”, a dynamic market. Amendment 226 includes a new definition of “utilities dynamic market” to make it clear that this is a subcategory of dynamic markets rather than a distinct concept. Amendment 227 deletes the previous definition of a utilities dynamic market and deletes Clause 35(3), which will not be needed if proposed new Clause 1, which was discussed on the first day of Committee, is agreed on Report. Amendment 229 is a grammatical change, and Amendment 231 ensures that the definition of “utility” applies across the whole Bill, not just to this clause.

Amendment 234 includes proposed new subsections (1A), (1B) and (1C) in Clause 36, relating to conditions for membership of a dynamic market. These provisions apply the same restrictions to these conditions as apply to conditions of participation in a competitive tendering procedure, as set out in Clause 21.

Amendment 235 clarifies that the contracting authority that established a particular dynamic market, as opposed to any other contracting authority, must publish a notice when the dynamic market ceases or changes—for example, when new suppliers are added.

Amendment 288 allows for a minimum 10-day tendering period for the submission of tenders in competitive tendering procedures for the award of contracts under dynamic markets. This shorter period is a significant efficiency offered by dynamic markets. It compares to the usual tender return of 35 days, which applies in a normal procedure unless tender documents are provided at the outset and/or tenders are accepted electronically, both of which reduce the return by five days.

Amendment 345 extends the requirement on contracting authorities to notify the relevant appropriate authority where a supplier is excluded from a dynamic market because it has fallen foul of a mandatory or discretionary exclusion ground. Amendments 346 to 348 are consequential on this amendment.

In respect of the last two amendments, Amendment 541 corrects the clause reference in the list of defined terms to align with the amendments proposed to Clause 35, while Amendment 545 includes in this list a cross-reference to the newly defined term “utilities dynamic market”.

With that, I beg to move the first of these government amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Viscount set out so speedily, this new concept of dynamic markets is so new that a lot of it did not even make it into the original Bill; it had to be brought in as amendments. Thereby hangs a concern—not with the concept of a dynamic market, which I will come to shortly, but with how this is being put together, the sum of the parts and how it will work. It is difficult to see exactly how this will work in practice from the noble Viscount’s presentation that we just heard, the Bill itself and the original White Paper. That is my concern.

It would be helpful if the noble Viscount came back to us in writing with a simple message as to how this will work. How, for example, does it welcome innovation rather than shut it out? I will give an example. Whether a dynamic is based around process rather than outcome makes a difference, so how will these rules manage dynamic markets that actually deliver constant innovation? How will they be refreshed? How will the system work so that, rather than having the power of incumbency, if you like, which is often what happens with procurement, power will be pushed around to allow innovation, new entrants and new people to work within this dynamic?

We can call something dynamic but how is it dynamic on an ongoing basis if I use this market to buy things or services on a daily basis? Essentially, that is my concern: all these amendments are tinkering around technically with process but, because of the way this has been put together in pieces, will it actually work? Can the Minister come back with some assurance as to how this is supposed to work? How will it be constantly renewed? How will he ensure that it is open to new entrants throughout the life of that dynamic? How will individuals know that they are able to keep entering that market? Tenders will not be going out, so what is the process? If I have a small or medium-sized business, how do I find out about dynamic markets that might suit my product or service set? I am concerned about those kinds of mechanisms and processes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I shall be extremely brief as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has already covered a lot of the concerns that your Lordships feel. Following on from that, we need some clarification around the issue, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, just said, of whether it is or is not entirely electronic. How is that going to operate? What are the conditions of membership? We need some clarification on the detail of how the dynamic markets are going to work. Perhaps the Ministers opposite could write to the Committee with some clarification about the operation of the system ahead of Report. That would be very helpful.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I appreciate the comments made by the three Peers who have spoken. It might be appropriate for me to write a letter to clarify the detail, which I appreciate came across as rather technical—though not too rushed, I hope. I appreciate the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman; I will attempt to answer some of them.

Let me start by saying that the expression “dynamic market” is not just a name change. The dynamic market will have a wider remit than the current dynamic purchasing systems. Importantly, dynamic markets can be used for all procurements rather than just commonly used goods and services. That is the first change. The Bill also provides much greater clarity on how dynamic markets can be established and contracts awarded to suppliers—this is on-the-ground information—and on how contracts can be awarded to suppliers that are members of the dynamic market, as well as increased transparency over their operation. I hope that helps to some extent.

I shall go further in answer to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. The benefit of frameworks is that, once set up, they can be a fast, efficient, compliant and easy-to-use procurement route for both the contracting authority and the suppliers. Again, once the framework is set up, there is a significant reduction in the procurement timescale from six to nine months to as little as four to six weeks, leading to reduced procurement costs. Obviously, that is beneficial for both the public sector and the suppliers.

With this, there are pre-agreed terms and conditions, meaning that contracting authorities can simply call off the framework to meet their requirements. They are usually set up with ceiling prices that can be further reduced by competition at the call-off stage. So the benefit of the dynamic market is that it remains open to all suppliers, which benefits SMEs in particular as they will not be locked out for long periods of time.

On how dynamic markets actually help companies—let us say SMEs, which I think was the gist of the noble Lord’s question—it may be that I need to provide more information, but here we are. The new dynamic markets will be open to new suppliers joining throughout their life, ensuring that no one is locked out from the market for long stretches of time. That will be beneficial to SMEs in particular, which can decide to apply to a dynamic market at any time via a process that will be much simpler and quicker than tendering for a framework.

I believe it will be best if I set out all this information and more in a letter. With that, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment. Actually, these are government amendments, are they not?

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

211: Clause 34, page 22, line 11, leave out first “a particular” and insert “suppliers that are not members of an appropriate”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

223: Clause 35, page 22, line 32, leave out “(a “dynamic market”)”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

229: Clause 35, page 23, line 5, after “Act” insert “that apply”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

233: Clause 35, page 23, line 20, leave out subsection (8)

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

234: Clause 36, page 23, line 29, at end insert—
“(1A) A condition set under subsection (1)(b) may relate to suppliers’ qualifications, experience or technical ability, but may not—(a) require suppliers to have been awarded a contract by a particular contracting authority,(b) break the rules on technical specifications in section 24, or(c) require particular qualifications without allowing for their equivalents.(1B) When considering whether a condition is proportionate for the purposes of subsection (1) a contracting authority must have regard to the nature, complexity and cost of contracts to be awarded by reference to suppliers’ membership of the market.(1C) A condition of membership may require the provision of evidence that is verifiable by a person other than the supplier.”

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

235: Clause 39, page 25, line 6, after “authority” insert “that established the market”

Negotiating Objectives for a Free Trade Agreement with India

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, whether I am temporary, permanent or in no role at all, I am very pleased to respond to this debate this afternoon. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for tabling today’s Motion and congratulate her and the International Agreements Committee on their report on the free trade agreement we are negotiating with India. As ever, it is a comprehensive report and the Department for International Trade is thoroughly considering its recommendations.

We have heard many insightful and helpful speeches today from Peers with much experience in this sector, including trade itself. As the Committee will know, we are currently in live negotiations. I will endeavour to respond to as many points from noble Lords as I can, but there is a lot to cover. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—I was going to raise this before he did—that I will ensure that our negotiators are made fully aware of all the points raised today, although I doubt that I will be able to cover everything. My noble friend Lord Caithness stated that this debate cannot possibly cover all the points of the deal in depth. He is right, but it is part of a multifaceted process; I argue that this debate is a big deal but not perhaps such a big deal in terms of the whole process, which I will speak about later.

I am the first to say that this negotiation is a considerable challenge. India’s economy is vastly different from those of countries with which we have previously agreed free trade agreements. I recognise that it has historically taken a protectionist stance towards trade and agreed so-called thin free trade agreements with several countries. I note the realism in this respect expressed by the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. However, I am also realistic. Every negotiation is different, and our ties with India are already strong. In this case, from the very top down, both countries have made it clear that we want to reach a thick deal—a comprehensive free trade agreement. Negotiations are gathering momentum as we work towards our shared target to conclude the majority of talks by the end of October. I know there are a number of questions on this, and I will come back to the timings and deadlines later in my remarks.

I believe that the prize that awaits us is great. My noble friend Lord Frost reminds us that we start from the position of being outside the EU and negotiating under our own steam. In 2021, India was the world’s sixth-largest economy. By the middle of the century, it is on course to become the third largest, so a free trade agreement will take the UK to the heart of the economic powerhouse of tomorrow. My noble friend Lord Hannan gave us a brief history lesson on trade with India, emphasising the need to address the tariff barriers, and of course he is right.

Last year, UK businesses exported more than £8 billion-worth of goods and services to India. As its middle class grows towards a quarter of a billion people, demand for the best of British is surely set to soar. That is why, through our negotiations, anything that we can do to make trading with India easier could be game-changing for UK businesses. To reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, it is to benefit UK businesses, not just businesses or consumers in India—an important point.

Today, some of our most iconic exports, such as Scotch whisky and Midlands cars, face import duties of up to 150%, which was raised in the debate, and our businesses are held back by restrictive rules and regulations. We are therefore looking to remove or reduce a range of tariffs and cut through as much red tape as we possibly can. This will make UK exports more price competitive in the Indian market, potentially giving our businesses a first-mover advantage over their global competitors.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked about our objectives, and my noble friend Lord Lansley asked what would constitute success in negotiating an FTA. Those are both fair points and, although I cannot wholly answer them precisely, I will start by saying that the Department for International Trade’s modelling suggests that, by 2035, a comprehensive FTA could boost UK GDP by more than £3 billion. Of course, the exact benefits will depend on the final deal we achieve, but we remain confident of securing a deal that compares favourably to anything India has previously agreed. In any case, the Department for International Trade will carry out an impact assessment to build on the scoping assessment that has already taken place.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked about priority areas. They will know that the Government do not publish detailed policy positions, as that would disadvantage the UK in the negotiations. However, I can reiterate that our extensive stakeholder work, in both our consultation to set our mandate as well as our continued engagement with business in talks, is important.

A free trade agreement will be immensely valuable to the UK and to India, but I emphasise that it is just the next chapter in our long-standing trading relationship. Just as my ancestors exported beer brewed in Alloa in Scotland to India in the 19th century, today, thousands of British businesses exchange goods, services and ideas with India. Last year, our trading relationship was worth over £24 billion and, separate from this FTA, the UK and India share a road map to double our trade by 2030.

However, our relationship with India is defined by more than just numbers. As Prime Minister Modi has so often reminded us, a living bridge connects our nations—the world’s largest and the world’s oldest democracy. More than one and a half million people of Indian origin live in the UK. They make a profound contribution to our society, culture and economy. This living bridge has been built by partnerships—my noble friend Lord Lansley emphasised that point. One of the vaccines that protected billions of people around the world from Covid-19 was developed through a partnership between Britain’s AstraZeneca and India’s Serum Institute. Jaguar Land Rover is Indian-owned but British-made and employs almost 30,000 people in the UK. There are so many more examples of this collaboration across our economies. It delivers jobs and prosperity and enriches our society, and through a free trade agreement we can make it cheaper, easier and quicker for goods and services to cross this living bridge and drive growth.

I will touch on services and mobility, which was raised, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. As the Committee rightly recognised, services are also vital to our trading relationship. Prior to the coronavirus crisis, between 2009 and 2019, UK services exports to India doubled. Through our negotiations, we are also looking to open doors in sectors where our businesses are currently hindered from operating in India, such as professional, business and financial services. Along with our efforts to liberalise trade in goods, this means that, by 2035, a comprehensive deal could increase UK exports of services by billions of pounds, generating higher wages, supporting thousands of jobs and growing the economy.

The committee’s report rightly outlines that improving mobility for businesspeople will be key to delivering these benefits, again points that were raised this afternoon. That is why I want to assure the Committee and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, who raised this, that we are exploring mobility provisions that benefit UK businesses and consumers, but will not agree anything which undermines the UK’s points-based immigration system or our ability to control immigration.

Moving on to investment, the committee also raised the importance for UK businesses of opening India’s markets to investment. As outlined in our published objectives, we want to make sure that investment is protected and that investors are treated fairly. The UK and India have a common interest in seeing our investment relationship grow and providing businesses with confidence.

Let me say a little more about this because it was raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Hayter, and my noble friends Lord Lansley and Lord Caithness. The Committee will know that India terminated our existing bilateral agreement for investment in 2017, so we want to agree new investment commitments that will form the backbone of the UK-India relationship for years to come but, in line with our public objective, we aim to make it easier for UK firms to invest in India by providing them with legal certainty and the confidence to operate in Indian markets. We will seek to provide sufficient protections to UK investors and guarantee that they receive fair and non-discriminatory treatment, ensuring their access to adequate remedies if those obligations are breached. The inclusion of ISDS is considered where it is in the UK’s interest and where we agree with partners that it can play a useful role in supporting the bilateral investment relationship.

I shall now address points raised by several noble Lords about deadlines, timescales and progress. I have fully taken note of all the comments made. The UK and India are different economies and there is no one-size-fits-all approach to negotiating trade agreements. When negotiations launched in January, both sides came to the table with high ambition and strong political backing—perhaps no surprise there. As far back as April 2020, Prime Ministers Modi and Johnson wholeheartedly committed to negotiating a comprehensive free trade agreement. Our negotiating objectives were based on input from hundreds of stakeholders, and we are pushing firmly and consistently to achieve results that matter to UK businesses and consumers. But for any negotiation to succeed, the outcome needs to work for both parties and, through the five completed rounds of negotiations, we have worked with our Indian friends to make progress towards a realistic agreement that benefits us both, including on a number of new and innovative chapters.

The target set by Prime Ministers Modi and Johnson to conclude the majority of talks by the end of October is a clear demonstration of continued political will to reach an agreement. It has focused minds and driven progress. With his great experience in this area, my noble friend Lord Frost, backed by my noble friend Lord Hannan, made the important point that having deadlines is helpful and important in such a process. Both nations are working hard to keep up this pace and beginning to see a potential deal that will benefit our trade relationship but, as we have made clear since the start of talks—I say this to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and other noble Lords—the Government will not sacrifice quality for speed. We will sign only deals that are in the UK’s best interest, whether they are with India or any other partner, so if it takes longer, it takes longer.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, raised concerns about communications and keeping shareholders informed, so I shall move on to the related point about scrutiny and engagement. The report highlights the importance of engagement throughout the process, and I wholeheartedly agree with that objective. From the outset, this Government have engaged with UK businesses and consumers on this deal. Talks commenced only following an extensive consultation with stakeholders, as mentioned earlier, which directly shaped our objectives. We continue to connect regularly with hundreds of businesses, business representative organisations and civil society groups through our strategic advisory and trade advisory groups.

As with all our trade policy, Parliament has significant opportunities to scrutinise our deal with India. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is right that it is the content of the deal that counts. I wholeheartedly agree with her on that. Ministers engage with the International Agreements Committee and the International Trade Committee throughout the life of a free trade agreement. Indeed, our chief negotiator has offered private briefings prior to signature, whenever that might be, at the committee’s leisure, which I hope this committee and the International Trade Committee will take up.

After signature, an economic impact assessment and full treaty text will be publicly available. The Trade and Agriculture Commission will then produce a report on the agreement and the scrutiny process under CRaG, which the Committee will be familiar with, will be carried out prior to ratification. In addition, any primary or secondary legislation will need to progress through Parliament in the usual way. This will take place in parallel to India’s ratification process.

Let me add a little more on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Lansley. He made the point that the Indian Secretary of Commerce made some comments on the timings in the chapters closed. I reiterate our public commitment to our shared target to conclude the majority of talks by the end of October this year. We have made good progress but we still have to work through some challenging and important areas to achieve a comprehensive FTA that respects both sides. However, I remain clear that we will sign a deal only when it is in the UK’s best interests. Given all the points raised, I hope that I have been clear about this matter this afternoon.

Moving on to standards and so-called red lines, which were raised by a number of noble Lords—my noble friend Lady McIntosh in particular—I am aware of concerns that the UK’s world-leading standards could be diminished by any new trade deal. To be clear, as in any FTA, the Government are committed to upholding high environmental, product and labour standards. We will not agree to provisions that will undermine or reduce the safety standards of products imported into the UK, including pesticides. In fact, we have already provisionally closed a stand-alone chapter on sanitary and phytosanitary standards. This will ensure that traded food is safe to consume and that animal and plant products are free from pests and disease. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, raised this point.

To add a little more to what I have said, our provisionally agreed chapter on sanitary and phytosanitary standards builds on our long-standing relationship and ensures that both parties can continue to protect their biosecurity, including through enhanced structures and streamlined processes. This includes provisions on antimicrobial resistance. Nothing in the provisionally closed SPS chapter changes our high food standards or strict requirements on imports from India. I say again that the UK is committed to maintaining our current high standards and will not agree to provisions that undermine the safety standards of products imported into the UK.

In addition, the Government share the public’s respect for worker protections and gender-based rights. We have already provisionally agreed a stand-alone trade and gender equality chapter with India—this was raised by noble Lords; I will say a bit more about it later—as well as a chapter on trade and development co-operation. However, we recognise that not all challenges can be solved by trade deals alone, which is why we are working across government on engaging our Indian friends to make progress across these areas. As always, the UK will continue to ensure that public services, including the NHS, are protected in all trade agreements.

Moving on, I understand that there are continuing concerns—they are usually raised in these debates—about dispute mechanisms, notably raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. These mechanisms play an important part in increasing businesses’ and stakeholders’ confidence that our international partners will uphold their obligations in such areas in FTAs. What is more, they are important deterrents; if an effective mechanism for enforcing commitments under FTAs is in place, it is more likely that our international partners will uphold their commitments.

I will say a few words about corruption, which, again, was a theme raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister. I understand that there are important concerns on this subject regarding this particular deal. Throughout our negotiations with India, the UK has made a strong case for a comprehensive anti-corruption chapter. I am pleased to say that our efforts have been successful and we have provisionally agreed one. It will be India’s first stand-alone anti-corruption chapter in a bilateral FTA and the provisional agreement goes further than the precedent set in previous FTAs. This speaks to India’s interests and intent. Although the chapter will not change India’s domestic legislation, it affirms its international commitments.

More broadly, all British businesses operating in India are bound by the UK’s Bribery Act and no FTA will change this. This matter was raised by my noble friend Lord Balfe in his comments on facilitation payments, and we know what is meant by that. Both nations are keen to combat the trade-distorting impact of bribery and corruption, as well as to provide important reassurance to British businesses.

I think I have time to cover a number of other questions that were raised. A number of Peers raised the important matter of Ukraine, and I absolutely take note of their comments and reiterate that the UK is working with international partners, including India, to co-ordinate the international response to Russia’s unlawful—and outrageous, I would say—invasion of Ukraine. Prime Minister Johnson visited India in April, where he discussed this issue directly with Prime Minister Modi and released a joint statement unequivocally condemning civilian deaths and calling for a peaceful resolution to the conflict. I should note that, historically, trade deals have not been a way to secure broad diplomatic agreements. However, I add that, as always, any decisions to agree to a trade deal will be taken at the appropriate time when talks conclude.

Innovation was raised, not least by my noble friends Lord Lansley and Lord Udny- Lister. I will say a few words on that important point as part of this FTA negotiation. The provisional agreement on innovation goes beyond the precedent set in India’s previous FTA negotiations. The UK and India, as I said earlier, share a highly productive relationship, collaborating on research and development for innovation. This will play an essential role not only for economic growth but in tackling global challenges, levelling up, building back better from the pandemic and climate change, which I hope I will have time to cover as well.

The important matter of labour rights and trade and gender equality was raised by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister, with a focus on women. Let me say a little about that important point. The UK and India have provisionally agreed a chapter on trade and gender equality, which is the first of its kind for India and will enhance opportunities for women to access the full benefits of trade between the UK and India. This reflects our shared commitment to advancing gender equality and women’s economic empowerment, recognising that women often face disproportionate barriers across the economy and in trade. There is more work to be done on this, but I reassure noble Lords that it is very much a priority as part of this negotiation.

On labour rights, raised by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, and my noble friend Lord Balfe, both parties reaffirm their respective commitment to international labour standards while providing assurances that they will not fail to enforce domestic labour protections in order to gain a trade advantage—an important point to make. Also, any agreement must protect our regulatory sovereignty; a non-regression clause would constrain this. The provisions we seek on labour protections provide assurances for workers and businesses without undermining our security.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, spoke about the important matter of intellectual property in respect of medications, or perhaps medicines. It could be both; generic versus brand, if I can put it that way. Briefly, it is an important point about a huge sector, particularly the pharmaceutical sector, for us in the UK. Our approach considers industry, which relies on the period of exclusivity provided by patent protection, while ensuring that the system facilitates the entry of generic medicines on patent expiry. While we cannot speak to specifics in the negotiation room, as I alluded to earlier, the UK remains committed to the Doha declaration on the TRIPS agreement and public health.

On the important subject of climate change, particularly in relation to this agreement, I will make some brief comments. We have been consistently clear that we will uphold our high environmental protections in our FTA, and this applies to this particular deal. We are seeking a range of provisions that support the Government’s ambition on climate change. I think I will write a letter to give more on this, but in terms of the point on decarbonisation raised by the noble Lord, Lord McNicol—I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, will have raised it—it also includes facilitating trade in low-carbon goods and services and strengthening co-operation to achieve environment and climate change objectives, including decarbonisation.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, raised a very important point about the DAs. I will cover them in my letter, but I reassure him that, whatever he may have heard, the opposite is true. The relationship with the DAs is very good. We are in constant contact with them. I would like to speak to him, perhaps outside the Room, as to where he got his information from, but I think a letter is in order to reassure him.

I will conclude, as there are other things going on which I think we are aware of. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. As always, the International Agreements Committee’s report has provided the Government with welcome insight. We really are listening and plan to respond in detail later this month. I reiterate my thanks to the committee.

We appreciate that the final stages of the negotiations will be challenging, but I say again that we are making progress. As India’s middle class continues to grow towards a quarter of a billion people, its spending power will increase and increase. A free trade agreement will put British businesses at the front of the queue to satisfy this demand for decades to come. This is the prize. We must grasp it and be sure that we do not lower standards at the same time.

Elections Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendment, probing as it is, from the noble Baroness. As she quite rightly said, this in large measure prefigures the next debate we are going to have. I await with interest the answers that we will hear. Particularly in the case of the borrowing power, it seems somewhat otiose to put in a power that has never been exercised in any way at all.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, it seems that it is time for a change of horse—although it is fair to say that the highway that this one is on is broadly the same. On this amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, I respect her wish to explore the issue; I understand that it is a probing amendment on the question of whether the Electoral Commission can borrow money. I will try my best to answer the questions that have been raised. It is our view, at the outset, that we do not think that this is necessary, but it is of course incumbent on me to explain why.

It is important to note that the Electoral Commission is funded through Parliament each year, following scrutiny by the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission. The commission submits a main estimate, outlining its required funding for the financial year ahead for approval by that committee, with the estimate then laid before the House of Commons. Should the commission require any further funding for the year, it is able to submit supplementary estimates throughout the year to the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission as necessary. This could be where project costs have risen for unforeseeable circumstances or for unscheduled electoral events. Given this annual funding through Parliament, and with the ability to seek further funding if required for unforeseen projects or events, it is the view of the Government that the commission therefore does not need to borrow money. I think that is probably what the noble Baroness was seeking confirmation of, and I can confirm it. It is further noted that this restriction has been in place since the establishment of the commission.

On the noble Baroness’s specific question as to why it therefore needs to be in the Bill, I am seeking that answer. It may just be that it is confirmatory and needs to be put in but, if there is anything further to say on that, I will most certainly write to the noble Baroness, as it is a very fair and rather basic question.

On the other public bodies that might be in a position to borrow money—that is, who they are and perhaps to what extent—again, that is something I will need to write on. It may be a very long list or it may be a very short list, but it is a fair point in terms of providing some sort of context to this matter.

I hope that that provides a little reassurance. With that, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response and look forward to his letter. I thank him for agreeing to write to me so that I have the details of the response. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to respond to Amendments 18 and 19, which were spoken to very eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham.

I start by saying that I am aware that the Committee on Standards in Public Life recommended as part of its report, Regulating Election Finance, that the Electoral Commission’s fining powers be increased to 4% of a campaign’s total spend or £500,000, whichever is higher, as was mentioned during this debate. This proposal mirrors the amendments in their intent to raise the fining powers of the commission beyond its current limit.

First, we should differentiate between civil and criminal cases. The Government’s view is that the commission already has adequate powers to impose civil sanctions on political parties and non-party campaigners up to £20,000 per offence—and I underline “per offence”. Criminal matters can be, and are, referred to the police and, in certain cases, taken to a criminal prosecution. The courts have the power to levy unlimited fines for some offences and, as the Committee is probably aware, to impose custodial sentences where appropriate.

As set out in the Government’s response to the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s report, any extension of the commission’s fining powers would need to be considered carefully to assess its necessity and proportionality. This is because it is vital that they are an effective deterrent but do not cause a chilling effect on electoral participation and campaigning. I will say more about that, because a point was made, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, about a comparison with the Information Commissioner’s Office. Any direct comparison with the fines that can be issued by the ICO should note the clear differences between the two regulators and the types of entities they regulate. I understand his point in making the comparison, but political parties across the spectrum are not global corporations. I am pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, has popped in for this last group. I am sure the Green Party aspires to be global, but I hope I do not offend her by saying that it is not at the moment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I will just say that there are Greens all over the world, and I have not popped in just for this last one—I have been here several times today for different groups.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have been corrected on two points, and I am glad that the world is full of Greens, I am sure, doing a lot of very good work.

There are over 350 political parties currently registered with the Electoral Commission, and many are predominantly made up of volunteers. While it is vital that the sanctioning regime is effective, it needs to be ensured that such deterrents do not cause a chilling effect on electoral participation and campaigning.

I have more of a general point to make, which I think chimes with the views expressed during this very short debate, following up on the Committee on Standards in Public Life’s recommendations. The Government are committed to making sure that elections are secure and fit for the modern age. As part of this, we keep the Electoral Commission’s role, powers and regulation under review regularly to ensure that it is able to discharge its responsibilities effectively and that electoral law can be upheld in the most effective manner.

As part of further work looking at the regulatory framework for elections beyond the Elections Bill, the Government intend to look at all the recommendations of the report by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, alongside similar reports. These include a forthcoming report from the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee into the work of the Electoral Commission.

Regarding the question about statistics, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Khan, I will have to write to him about how many times the £20,000 has been levied. However, the fact that he says it has not been used lately suggests that there is not an urgent need to raise it. I have attempted to answer the question on raising the amount. I appreciate the points raised. I am afraid that for this evening, at this late hour, being a Scotsman, it is not £50,000, or even £500,000. It remains at £20,000.

However, for these reasons, I hope that the House will accept my explanations. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his kind remarks at the outset of his reply. I might have hoped that the notes in his folder were still those of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, as opposed to the ones that he read out this evening, since I suspect that they might have been slightly different.

All the debates today have shown that the House overwhelmingly wants to have an election watchdog, and wants it to be independent and effective. The Committee, and the whole House in due course, will have to return to the issue of the role and powers of the Electoral Commission, in particular the report on election finance by the Committee on Standards in Public Life. I was surprised that the Government committed just now to looking at those recommendations; they should have been looking at them in time for them to be considered in the passage of this Bill. That might have assisted us all.

However, the hour is now late enough. We will return to these issues in due course so, on that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Office for Demographic Change Bill [HL]

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 4th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s Bill and congratulate him on bringing it to your Lordships’ House.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend should be aware that the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, should be speaking.

[The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)]

I beg your pardon.

Covid-19 (Public Services Committee Report)

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, since coming here 10 months ago, I have read a lot of legislation and reports and to be honest, it has all been a bit of a chore. However, this report sparkled. I know it has had lots of plaudits, but I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top, and all the members of the Public Services Committee for an accessible, informative and thought-provoking document. There is lots in it I disagree with, but it was just so useful—and unusual for these toxic times, in that it was free from rancour and “gotchas”. As it says itself, it is not about apportioning blame for past failures, but making constructive suggestions for future reforms—a great relief.

One caveat: in general, I am wary of any sphere allowing the normal of the pandemic to automatically become a new normal by default. The call in the report is to lock in innovations, but that makes me nervous. Yes, it is very useful to kickstart debate, but not to institutionalise as a rigid fait accompli. For example, we all know that digital technology may have facilitated everything from working from home to digital health consultations. But as the report itself points out, Zoom teams and the like could never, and should never, replace face-to-face services. I note with concern that too many GPs and, for example, university lecturers and senior managers, seem reluctant to resume real-life interaction, at the expense of service users.

One striking feature of the report that I would like to make explicit is the cost of treating the NHS as almost a sacred cow public service. It is understandable to celebrate and almost sacralise the health service in a health pandemic, but this can be at the expense of other services. Testimony in the report noted that support for the NHS, especially during the initial part of the pandemic, might have been necessary but should not have come at the expense of preventive and public health services. I agree.

The Nuffield Trust is quoted as noting how the Covid crisis highlights the startling inequality between health and social care services. Many of us felt uncomfortable that that initial “clap for the NHS” neglected care workers. Even today, all the focus is on the pay rise for the heroic NHS staff, whereas social care is plagued with poor wages and awful employment conditions; and now we have even singled out social care workers as the only workforce facing mandated vaccines or the sack.

So, it is important that the report highlights that, long before Covid, successive Governments prioritised funding the NHS—especially acute services—and neglected funding social care. The Nuffield Trust notes that the NHS received generous emergency funding from the Treasury in the early stages of the pandemic, which then enabled a dramatic expansion of capacity. Care providers, in contrast, said that extra funding did not reach them. Also, and related, the deputy director of the New Local Government Network contrasted the experience of local government with the NHS. The NHS had its costs met in full and deficits written off unquestioningly, but that was a privilege not afforded to councils or other public services. I do wonder about this hierarchy of priorities.

The consequences go beyond material funding. As ADASS points out, the historical tendency to prioritise the NHS has influenced policy decisions, sometimes with tragic consequences. In the name of saving the NHS, rather than the NHS saving lives or the public, we now face the collateral damage of non-Covid deaths from cancer and heart disease and huge waiting lists for many in dire need of medical interventions, with the terrible news of an increase of 50% of under-20s hospitalised with eating disorders. In a different debate earlier today, we also heard about the use of “do not resuscitate” in hospitals. We cannot ignore these things.

But perhaps the greatest horror associated with the focus on the mantra of protecting the NHS was the scandal of patients being discharged from hospital into care homes without testing—what the Nuffield Trust called, as quoted in the report, a

“rapid clearing of hospital beds in the early stages”,

regardless of the

“lack of preparedness of the care settings”.

The most vulnerable died as a consequence and, at the very least, it is important that we be able to query NHS policies without being shut down as somehow disloyal to NHS staff who, I agree, have been and are heroic and hard workers—but so are other workers. I do not think that you should be called a traitor to the institution if you query it.

Another striking aspect I read from the report is the wasted potential of civil society in helping deal with the pandemic. On a positive note, of course, the report gives lots of examples of innovation happening because bureaucracy was swept away. In fact, sometimes to tear up the red tape is caricatured as a laissez-faire, careless approach, but the removal of overly bureaucratic hurdles allowed public services to work alongside charities and community groups and volunteers, and the private sector stepped up. Altogether, this played a huge role in delivering services.

The surge of civic action, such as the 4,000 Covid-19 mutual aid groups and the local WhatsApp and Facebook groups I am sure we were all in as volunteers, showed a real appetite for providing practical solidarity in the emergency from so many people. We saw the generosity of 750,000 people signing up in four days when NHS England’s Royal Voluntary Service was launched in April 2020, but sadly that was wasted. The Institute for Volunteering’s research rightly notes in the report that overcentralised co-ordination was not aligned to locally organised activities, significant time was taken to respond, enthusiasm dwindled and people became demoralised. I think it was just so sad when volunteers could have helped, for example, relieve the pressure on social care workers, or indeed NHS workers.

In general, the official approach to Covid was to demobilise the public—to squash initiative and volunteerism. The report notes how the German public health service, in contrast, mobilised and seconded public servants from across departments: forestry, museums—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness—

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

Sorry, have I gone on?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am afraid that her time is up.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I am sorry. I hope that we can mobilise the public in the future. I thank the committee for the report, and I apologise to the House.

EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Friday 8th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I want to exploit my position here at the moment, standing right behind the Minister. He opened the debate by referring to some of the major achievements that have been made, in particular that the European Court of Justice no longer applies in Great Britain, and other related matters. I am sure the noble Lord will realise that I could, and perhaps should, exploit my position here by saying that what the Minister said is not true. The ECJ still operates within the United Kingdom. It operates with regard to Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is still governed by Europe. This is not what we fought for. This is not what we voted for. It could be tolerated as something for the short term that will be dealt with speedily, but there is no sign of that happening. This process continues.

The man in the street in Northern Ireland does not understand what is going on, does not know is going on, because very little information seeps through. That should be addressed rapidly. I ask the Government to find ways of communicating with the people of Northern Ireland through their elected representatives and those of us who are here. I would like to know what happens in the various meetings. People come out and say that they have achieved something, but they do not explain what they have achieved. I would like to know that.

Without information coming through, people will look, for example, at the problems that some of the supermarkets have had recently: they have not got the material that they want to come through and in some cases have been quite embarrassed. There is also concern over the line that is basically driven down the Irish Sea. It is there, despite assurances being given to us several times that that was not going to happen. It has happened.

I want to pick on just three matters, one of which is hugely important, and that is the question of legislation in Northern Ireland. Where will that come from? At the moment, it will come from Brussels, not from this House or the other place. Legislation for Northern Ireland is done by Europe, and will continue to be done by Europe. I have heard Ministers say that if any legislation comes through, they will not do anything but just let it go through automatically.

I have two specific questions to ask the Minister—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am sorry, but the time is up for my noble friend. It is well over two minutes.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

No.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I beg your pardon. I am so sorry; I just got carried away. We will continue with the noble Lord, Lord Jay.

European Union (Future Relationship) Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

3rd reading & 2nd reading & Committee negatived & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con) [V]]

My Lords, when we last held a referendum on Europe in 1975, like many businessmen I strongly supported membership. The entrepreneur in me felt that to be part of a bigger bloc would give us the advantages that American companies already enjoyed in their huge home market. In the early 1990s, as president of a group representing European ship owners, I spent a great deal of time in Brussels meeting many Commissioners on a regular basis, and in the following years in connection with the European interests of my own company, P&O SN Co, I continued those meetings.

Why did I change my mind? Taking account of what I have just said, the original aim of it being a trading bloc has been lost. The European Commission is the sole initiator of policy, and the ambition of most in Brussels is a fully united Europe instead of a confederation of nation states. That is why I worked with Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Gisela Stuart in the leave campaign—and, subsequently, with David Davis for four years, when he was Brexit Secretary. Our 40-year membership of Europe is a very short period in this country’s history. Many keep referring to our decision to reassert control of our own destiny as a divorce; I never understood why because we were never married—at most, we were engaged.

Power today is no longer about possessing territory and heavy industry; nor is it even dependent on having a large population. Increasingly, it is a corollary of the extraordinary advances in technology and the expansion of world trade through the ever-increasing global supply chain—economic strength is vital. One lesson I have learned in international commerce is as valid today as it ever was: trade is a natural human activity—as natural as communicating with each other. It should not be dictated by government bureaucracy. That is why this country has always believed that free trade and freedom are inextricably linked—a view strongly held by Margaret Thatcher. I have no doubt whatever that we can more than hold our own outside the EU, working closely through strong long-term relationships worldwide, particularly with the Commonwealth, the USA and the far east—and, of course, by enlarging and enhancing our trade relations with the European Union.

We must never forget the magnificent role of our armed services in defending our realm night and day. Hearing the comments of many others, I emphasise that Gibraltar is of extreme importance to the Royal Navy, and we must make certain that, in due course, this is addressed in a way that helps it and our interests.

I have never liked the word “deal”. In business, long-term relationships are founded on an agreement, where trust and respect are fundamental. At the announcement referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, spoke warmly about the ongoing relationship with partners in the United Kingdom. Many of us have deep friendships and family in continental Europe, and, with such sentiment, I have no doubt that our relationship will only deepen in the years to come.

I strongly welcome this agreement and congratulate the Prime Minister and all those involved in the negotiation. Having been involved in major negotiations in many ways over 50-odd years, I have to say that the Prime Minister’s judgment in the last two to three weeks before they came to an agreement, the risks he took and the courage he showed are something to be admired—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord is over the time limit.