Universal Credit Roll-out

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

That astuteness demonstrates why my hon. Friend should become my right hon. Friend sooner rather than later.

It is a very revealing point. There is no real attempt to fix this. This is about pausing it and wrecking it.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Has the Secretary of State seen the survey of 105 local councils, which showed that of claimants who claim universal credit, over half of the council tenants are in rent arrears compared with only 10% of those on the old housing benefit? Does that not show that this system needs to be paused and fixed?

[Mr Gauke]

Part of the issue is that that is not comparing like with like. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that the selection of people who will be on universal credit will be of a different group than the housing benefit population as a whole. [Hon. Members: “Why?”] The reason is that in many cases, going on universal credit involves a change of circumstances, and that change of circumstances may in fact be a reason why people are in arrears. [Interruption.] May I just make this point? I know that the right hon. Gentleman has concerns about how we address the issue of the early period, so I will say a little bit more about it. We are seeing improvements in payment timeliness, and people are getting more support early so the reasons for increased rent arrears will not necessarily apply.

I want to make this point about what universal credit does. The work done within universal credit to give people the support to prepare for work can be too easily missed from debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

[Stephen Timms]

The right hon. Gentleman has explained the theory of the four-week delay, but does he accept that that theory simply does not work for the very large number of people who are still paid weekly?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is not a theory, but I will come on to that in a minute. The right hon. Gentleman and I have had plenty of conversations and discussions about the structure of this, and I want to take him up on that point.

I want to make the point, which is not often referred to by Labour Members, that the whole nature of the roll-out was deliberately set so as not to repeat the grave mistakes made when they rolled out tax credits and other benefit changes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

According to the plans announced by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) in July 2010, just after that year’s general election, the roll-out of UC was due to be completed this month; October 2017 was when it was all going to be finished. Instead, as we have heard, only 8% of the roll-out has taken place. So it has been a little ironic to hear Ministers and former Ministers who have presided over such an extraordinarily delayed programme getting hot under the collar about the sensible and thoughtful proposal from my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) that this project should now be paused in order that the problems we have heard so much about in this debate can be fixed.

I want to touch on the emerging administrative problems with the way this benefit is being delivered, with reports from the Child Poverty Action Group about UC being underpaid because real-time information provided by HMRC about income is not always reliable or accurate. It has also reported on claimants being paid the wrong amount of UC for no apparent reason. In other words, there is growing evidence that the IT for delivering UC is not working as it should. The position was well summed up by the current Secretary of State’s former boss, George Osborne, in his Evening Standard editorial last Thursday, where he wrote of the

“sorry history of procuring an IT system for the new universal credit”.

A sorry history indeed it has been. In particular, there is growing evidence that this RTI system is not doing what it is supposed to do. That was flatly denied by Ministers for months until it emerged last month in response to a freedom of information request: the existence of the late, missing and incorrect RTI project.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

We are ensuring that sufficient resources are available in jobcentres. It is worth pointing out that we have made significant progress on universal credit timeliness this year—as I have mentioned, more than 80% of new claimants received their full payment on time, and more than 90% received part of their payment—and we expect to build on that positive trend. I am sure that my hon. Friend will join me in welcoming universal credit roll-out to Torbay next May.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The problem is that “on time” means after a six-week delay, and that delay, as the Secretary of State knows well, is causing immense hardship up and down the country. Last week I met Maria Amos, who came within an inch of suicide because she had to live literally on nothing but water for six weeks, irreparably damaging her health. The Secretary of State can choose to ignore organisations such as Citizens Advice, but will he at least take some notice when Sir John Major calls for a pause?

[Mr Gauke]

What I would say—this is exactly the point I made earlier—is that I do not believe that anybody should be left without any support for six weeks when they do not have savings or an alternative source of income, which is why it is important that advances are available within the system. The majority of claimants now make use of advances. We need to ensure that that is properly communicated to claimants. I will certainly do that, as I am sure will all Members of this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We have run out of time, but I shall call one further questioner, a Member with an insatiable appetite for these matters and a detailed, some would say anorakish, knowledge of all the most complex formulae. I am referring, of course, to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms).

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I am very grateful, Mr Speaker. Apart from shocking delays, Citizens Advice highlights two big problems with universal credit. One is that it is too complicated; people cannot understand it. The second is that when there is a problem, there is nobody there to help people. I am glad that the Secretary of State is meeting Citizens Advice, but will he have anything to say to them on those two specific problems?

[Mr Gauke]

The personalised support available in jobcentres to people claiming universal credit is much more advanced than that which we have had in the past. In terms of complexity, universal credit is a much simpler system than that which has existed up to now, with six different benefits, leaving us in the absurd position in which people were unwilling to take a job that required them to work more than 16 hours because they would move from one benefit system to another, knowing that their hours might fall in the future, so they would move back to a different system. That complexity has discouraged people from working more hours and we should all seek to tackle that. That is exactly what universal credit does.