Counter-Terrorism (Statutory Instruments)
Stephen McPartland Excerpts(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Keith Vaz
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Committee has taken evidence from all the stakeholders involved, but it is the people who have gone abroad who really matter as we need to find out why they went in the first place. We need to get into their minds in some way, as he has said and as his questions in the Committee’s evidence sessions have tried to do, to find out why they make that decision, what turns them and what the tipping point is. They are brought up in this country, and by parents who obviously love and support them, but then suddenly they decide to go abroad. If I have one regret from all my years of chairing the Committee, it is that we have never been able to take evidence directly from those who have gone abroad. Some have come back, of course, but they are reluctant to talk to us, either formally or informally. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I think that why people decide to go is something that successor Committees and the next Parliament will have to consider.
On the orders before the House, I fully support the instrument that brings into force the code of practice to enhance safeguards and ensure clear guidance on best practice with regard to the acquisition and retention of communications data. When the Committee took evidence from journalists on the matter—this is in the public domain, of course—we said that we believed there ought to be exceptions. The Government accept that the authorities need to be very careful when they stray into areas relating to freedom of the press. I think that the code does provide for that, so the Government are right to bring it before the House now rather than at some later date.
However, the Committee, in looking at the regulations before the House, strongly suggested that RIPA’s days had come and gone. Although it was acceptable at the time to pass that legislation, we felt that, frankly, it was being misused. Anecdotally, we have head about some local authorities using the powers in RIPA to spy on families deciding where to send their children to school. We felt that such misuse was probably going on in other areas, but we did not know because there was no proper and effective monitoring.
Mr Speaker
Order. I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. I blame myself; I was immersed in conversation. It was a case of mistaken identity. The hon. Gentleman is wearing a delightful white shirt, not a checked one. He is not Mr Cairns; he is indeed Mr Stephen McPartland. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, and indeed to the other hon. Gentleman.
Stephen McPartland
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I think the Minister has done an excellent job in bringing on side some of us who were not as supportive of these proposals as others, but I am still concerned about the number of organisations that will be able to use DRIPA to access information. Does the right hon. Gentleman know how many such organisations there are?
Keith Vaz
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to be wary of that. I do not know how many other organisations can do that, and I think that there is a lack of monitoring. When Parliament passes legislation for a specific purpose and it is then used for other purposes—journalists say that this could be used to spy on them, for example, thereby giving up vital information about sources—parliamentarians need to pause and reconsider, and I think that is what we have to do. As he will know, given his great experience in home affairs matters, having in a previous life been so intimate with the workings of the Liverpool passport office, the state’s use of these powers does tend to creep. We need to ensure that we are vigilant in that regard.
The Minister says that he is waiting for David Anderson to report. One way of ensuring that David Anderson does a quicker job is to give him more resources. One of the things the Select Committee has noted is that the independent assessor does not have the kinds of resources that we would have expected. If the Government—whoever is in power after 7 May—help him along his path, we may be able to get a result much more quickly. We would therefore get the review of RIPA, which I think the whole House wants. The Prime Minister certainly wants it, from what I have heard him say about it. I hope we will be able to move that forward.
Finally, on the last set of regulations before the House, the Authority to Carry Scheme (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015, I have no problem in principle with what the Minister proposes, but he told the House, in effect, that the situation in which these would take effect has never arisen—that a carrier, having been asked not to carry, has defied Government, either inbound or outbound, and said, “We are going to carry this person.” It was the previous Government who introduced the carriers’ liability regulations. I probably voted for the measure at the time—I cannot remember as it was so long ago. It was effective because the carrier tends not to put someone on a plane if that person has been told on departure from another country that they do not have the requisite visa to enter the United Kingdom, as it is the carrier that will pay the fine.
There is nothing wrong with the principle, but we should legislate when we know that there is a problem. We finally got out of the Minister the fact that there has never been a situation where that has happened, so here we are, passing legislation to stop something that has never happened. His argument is that it is important to have that power in the back pocket because we never know when we might need it. It is important for the Minister to be able to wave it in front of carriers and say, “If you don’t do this, you will be fined.”
My objection to civil penalties is that the amount collected by the Government is lamentably small. To save us having to table parliamentary questions, as we are right at the end of this Parliament and we might not get the answers before we rise, I hope that the Minister will give us some figures when he winds up showing the percentage of civil penalty fines that have not been paid by those who are subject to them. I think unpaid fines owed to the Home Office will run into millions of pounds. The last time I looked, it was a pretty high figure.
All I ask the Minister to do is to reassure the House that he is a good collector of those penalties—not the hon. Gentleman personally, but his Department. I am sure that if he knocked on my door and asked for the penalty to be paid, I would pay it immediately. He is such a nice and charming man that I would cough up immediately, but we cannot spare the Minister for Security and Immigration for that kind of work. Others have to do it, or sometimes it is done by letter. All that happens is that the letter is put to one side. Perhaps he will have the figure for the amount of uncollected civil penalties currently owed to the Home Office. If it does not run into millions, I will buy him dinner in the Members Dining Room before the House rises on 30 March. On that cheerful note, I will finish my contribution.
Passport Applications
Stephen McPartland Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen), I want to put on the record the number of my constituents affected. So far, we have taken up nine cases with the passport office in Northern Ireland, and those cases have been dealt with. We have three more outstanding cases, but we are waiting for information from the constituents concerned. The processes that have been put in place are therefore working. However, I agree with the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) that it is a personal tragedy for every single person affected and their families, and we would hope not to be in such a situation.
I should declare that I worked at the passport office in Liverpool of an evening to work my way through university, and I spent many a pleasurable hour there. [Hon. Members: “We need you.”] Hon. Members will be delighted to know that when I was there we printed passports on a dot matrix printer, and we did 125 a night. Some of them were wonky, but people got their passports in the end. Mine were all pristine, and were always passed through as top quality. My point is that the staff in the Liverpool office have done a fantastic job, as have staff in other offices around the country.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman is speaking very highly of the Liverpool passport office. Does he not agree that Scotland, as a constituent part of the United Kingdom, deserves to have its own fully functioning and comprehensive Passport Office? It would of course have one after independence, and I am sure that some hon. Members in the Chamber would get an honorary passport.
Stephen McPartland
If the hon. Gentleman is so confident about independence, I have no need to answer that question.
During my wonderful time in Liverpool, earning a bit of money to get myself through my university years, the staff did a good job. Many of the staff are still there, although there have been a number of reorganisations. One key thing is that there were backlogs in those days. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury made the key point that, between January and May, 99% of passports were processed in four weeks. I can tell hon. Members that that was not the case when I worked in the passport office in Liverpool. It took a lot longer than that, and we used to look at the passport applications, wondering why it had taken so long for them to reach us to be printed.
My brother and sister also worked in that passport office in Liverpool. There are many of us, and such things are often family affairs in the great city that I come from. They had different roles. My brother was one of the examiners responsible for identifying whether somebody had the status to be given a British passport.
Hon. Members may not appreciate that once somebody gets a British passport, they can use it as a gateway document to enable them to access a variety of benefits and services within the United Kingdom, so it is incredibly important. One issue with delays for a specific passport is that we may have to be very careful about the security of the application to ensure that the person who will get the passport has a right to services in the United Kingdom. Failure to do so or a knee-jerk reaction—
Stephen McPartland
I will not give way again, because Madam Deputy Speaker wants us to make progress so that other Members can speak.
The passport is a key document. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury gave the important statistic that there were 565,000 documents in 1999. I should like to discuss my experience, because hon. Members will be shocked to discover that I was actually there when the work of the Passport Office was outsourced by the previous Government. In 1998, the Labour Government outsourced me to Siemens Business Services, which wanted to replace my dot-matrix computer with 125 passports on it with some high-falutin’ laser printer based in Manchester. We would examine the passports in Liverpool, and when we pressed “print” on our computers, they would be sent off to Manchester to be printed.
People will be shocked to discover that, during that period, there was complete and utter chaos. The roll-out was so poor that it was actually delayed in all the other passport offices in the United Kingdom. We had spoken to the unions, and to the Ministers involved, and they had been warned for more than 12 months that there would be utter chaos. I left the Passport Office in March 1999, and after it lost my services, there just happened to be a passport crisis that summer. I have no idea why that happened. I was beavering away doing the best I could, and when I left, there were problems.
There were huge problems in 1999. My hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury has mentioned the fact that £12.6 million was paid out. My brother and sister were working in the passport office at the time, and they remember that angry people from all over the country, with their umbrellas, were forming huge queues round the India buildings. They were having to pay out, and it was a huge problem. Every one of those cases was a personal tragedy.
I find it upsetting that some Opposition Members have tried to suggest that the situation today is similar. What has happened over the past few months has been difficult for the individuals involved, but it is nothing like what it was then. I worked there; I experienced it and I can assure every Member that the word “chaos” does not do it justice. Towards the end of 1998, it was so bad that I was paid treble time to work on Sundays, with an extra £10 an hour just to turn up to work. I left university with no debts as a result of that, for which I am grateful to the previous Government. I took advantage of that overtime as much as I could. The reality was, however, that there were huge problems. What the Home Secretary has done over the past few months has resulted in a huge step forward from what I experienced when I was there some years ago.
I would like to put on record my gratitude to the staff in the Passport Office who have helped me and my constituents to get the nine passports that we have contacted the office about over the past few weeks. I give the Passport Office warning now on the Floor of the House that I shall be contacting it in the next few hours about a further three cases, when I have received further details from my constituents, and I hope that they will be processed just as fast.
We have to remember that there are human beings involved, and that the staff who are doing the examining and the printing are all doing the best they can. I was a little disappointed that the shadow Home Secretary saw fit to mock someone who was working on the advice line. I have been in that position myself, and it was very difficult when people were ringing from different countries and I was constantly fielding their concerns. That person will no doubt be disappointed to hear what she said. I want to put on record my thanks to the Home Secretary for her action to try to deal with the situation.
Hillsborough
Stephen McPartland Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments and for his offer. As he says, it is extremely important that all those who can encourage others to act appropriately, do so, and are willing to challenge those who are not acting appropriately.
If I may, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) asked another question, which I did not answer, about how I could maintain the trust of the families. I see the families from time to time, and as I have explained, Bishop James Jones is my adviser on the matter and he is seeing the families through the forums. I have made it clear both to Bishop Jones and to the families that if they have any concerns at all they should feel free to raise them directly with me and I will look into them.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for her update today and the work that she is doing on this issue. I pay tribute to the strength of the families who have been pursuing justice through this dreadful almost 25 years. Will the Home Secretary clarify whether she believes that criminal prosecutions will take place and whether she believes that criminal prosecutions must take place to provide justice for those families?
Mrs May
I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern around this issue. It is not my place to say whether a criminal prosecution will take place. The investigation takes place and the Crown Prosecution Service will independently determine whether prosecutions are appropriate. What I can say is that all those involved in the investigation are absolutely clear that where they find criminal activity, they will do their best to ensure that that is pursued, because everybody wants justice for the families.
Drugs (Roadside Testing) Bill
Stephen McPartland Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Nuttall
That might be so, but the fact is that the use of such drugs is illegal. I hope that one of these devices will be authorised for roadside drug testing in the near future, because it would then be a small step for them to be used in prisons, making it easier to ascertain which of the inmates has had access to illicit drugs.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is some concern about the fact that if these devices are to be used purely to detect whether drugs are present in a person’s system, that creates the possibility of a greater move towards a police state, because the current legislation states that the authorities must prove that the individual was impaired by the use of drugs in driving the vehicle, as opposed to having drugs in their system?
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Ultimately, however, it will be for the courts to decide, not the police, so I do not think it could be said that we would be living in a police state. The police will put the evidence before the magistrates court or, in appropriate cases, the Crown court, where the jury will weigh up the evidence and decide whether the person is guilty of the offence. Let us stick to what we are talking about, which is driving under the influence of drugs.
Cocaine causes over-confidence and can cause erratic behaviour. After a night out using cocaine, people often report that they feel as though they have flu. Some people, however—I said that different drugs can affect people in different ways—feel sleepy and lack concentration.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) commented that drug taking among young people, particularly in nightclubs, is still very prevalent. One of the principal drugs used in those circumstances is ecstasy. Ecstasy makes the heart beat faster, which can cause a surge of adrenalin and result in a driver feeling over-confident and therefore taking additional risks that could, and do, cause accidents.
LSD can, depending on the individual concerned, appear to speed up or slow down time and movement, making the speed of other vehicles difficult to judge. It can distort colour, sound and objects, and users often see objects that are not there. LSD can cause people to feel panicky and confused—obviously a dangerous state to be in while driving.
Speed makes people feel wide awake and excited. Of course, I refer to speed, the drug, rather than vehicle speed. People who have taken speed find it difficult to sit still and have difficulty sleeping. Someone who has taken speed and has not been able to sleep at the weekend would probably be tired and dangerous on the road. Speed can also make people feel very panicky.
The problem is complicated by the fact that medicinal drugs that are legally prescribed by a qualified medical practitioner can also adversely affect a person’s ability to drive. It is, of course, the responsibility of the driver to ensure that he does not commit an offence when driving under the influence of drugs. Doctors do, however, advise patients of the dangers of the side effects of medication. The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency issues advice to general practitioners on the possible effects of a variety of drugs. GPs are advised to assume that the majority of adult patients are actual or potential drivers.
The Medical Commission on Accident Prevention has published a booklet, which is available to all GPs, setting out its views on the commoner conditions that affect one’s fitness to drive safely. The booklet, entitled “The Medical Aspects of Fitness to Drive”, contains chapters on prescribed and illicit medicines and driving. Various suggestions are offered to GPs on the advice that should be given to patients, such as not driving at all until any side effects are known, not driving if feeling unwell, and not combining alcohol with drugs. As will be seen from the cases I refer to later, the combination of alcohol and drugs is sadly all too common in cases of death by dangerous driving. GPs are also advised to warn that stimulants and euphoria-producing drugs may lead to unnecessary risks being taken.
In addition to that advice, the DVLA issues the “At a glance guide to the current medical standards of fitness to drive”, which contains sections on driving while taking medication for psychiatric and cardiovascular disorders. Specific illnesses such as epilepsy and diabetes are also covered. A review of the effects of over-the-counter medicines and the associated potential for unwanted sleepiness was published in 2004.
We should not forget the impact of the internet in this area. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency noted in its evidence to the North review, to which I will refer later, that
“there is an increasing trend of buying prescription only medicines over the Internet.”
Clearly there are dangers that medicines purchased in that way may be misused, because there is no opportunity for an individual to be given advice about the possible dangers and side effects.
Publicity was first given to the problems of driving under the influence of drugs, particularly lawful drugs, by a report published as long ago as April 1995 by the Institute for Human Psychopharmacology, entitled “Drugs other than alcohol and driving in the European Union”. Compared with the research into drink-driving, there was little real understanding of the effects of drugs on one’s ability to drive.
Mr Nuttall
But I am not a druid! I am a practising member of the Church of England. I am not sure whether the Archbishop of Canterbury has commented on this matter yet, but no doubt he will later.
The DRUID report includes an analytical evaluation of several on-site oral fluid screeners. The final report is still in production but early results suggest that police evaluations of the devices tested were broadly positive. Eight of the 13 evaluated devices were rated as “promising” and were subsequently included in a scientific evaluation focusing on sensitivity and specificity.
Mr Nuttall
My hon. Friend asks a good question, but I do not know the answer. I suspect that they might have been tested throughout the European Union, although I would like to think that at least some of them were tested in the United Kingdom.
Early drafts of the report go on to state that research papers in the press have reported on the evaluation of four of the devices. While one device was considered unsuitable, three demonstrated excellent sensitivity for amphetamines and moderate sensitivity for the detection of cocaine and cannabis. A newer version of one of the devices using new generation oral fluid screening tests demonstrated improved sensitivity—as high as 93%—for tetrahydrocannabinol.
A recent evaluation of the zero tolerance approach adopted in parts of Australia is particularly informative. A report on the first 12 months of the new law in Western Australia reveals that 9,716 roadside tests were conducted during that period. Of those, 517 tested positive for one or more proscribed drugs, which equates to 5.3% of the total.The results suggest that a zero tolerance policy utilising roadside screening devices has distinct advantages over the UK’s impairment-based approach. Specifically, the process is simple, straightforward, quick to administer and unambiguous.
Drug-impaired driving legislation, which is akin to our own impairment-based approach, was introduced in conjunction with the roadside oral fluid testing procedures. However, drug-impaired driving appears to have been largely ignored as an anti-drug-drive measure, in favour of the roadside oral fluid testing approach. During the study period, only five drivers were charged with drug-impaired driving. Police officers appeared to be more comfortable with administering the roadside oral fluid tests than with trying to demonstrate impairment in order to secure a conviction for drug-impaired driving. The Australian experience suggests that, were the UK to move to a zero tolerance system, one effect would be that police officers would be less likely to pursue a case for driving under the influence of drugs under section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
Since the Bill had its First Reading last year, there have been significant developments in this area by the Government. First, in written evidence to the Transport Committee submitted in September 2010, the Department for Transport set out the Government’s views on how they intended to proceed in the area of drug-driving. In March this year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport set out how the Government would proceed. Subsequently, on 11 May this year, the Department for Transport published its strategic framework for road safety. This stated:
“On drink and drug driving our priority is to deter driving when unfit through drugs or alcohol, and to ensure that those who persist in this dangerous behaviour are detected and punished effectively. Considerable progress has been made in the abatement of drink-driving, but we now aim to achieve similar results with drivers who are impaired through the use of drugs. The prospect of an effective means of detecting and deterring drug-driving will—for the first time—allow a serious enforcement effort against this dangerous behaviour. That is our first priority, which we believe is shared by the police.
It can be just as dangerous for people to drive impaired by alcohol or drugs, and it is currently unbalanced that it is easier to get away with one than the other. We want to give the police the means to identify drug-drivers and allow them to request evidential samples for testing. There needs to be a clear message that drug-drivers are as likely to be caught and punished as drink-drivers.
Our strategy is to focus resources and any legislative changes on measures which will have the most impact in reducing dangerous behaviours. There are therefore two main priorities to continue the successful abatement of drink-driving and achieve similar success against drug-driving;
To give the police effective tools to identify and proceed against drug-drivers;
To streamline the enforcement process for drink and drug driving to relieve pressure on police and other enforcement resources, and enable these to be targeted better.
We have issued a specification to manufacturers for drug testing technology that will be able to be used in police stations. It is for manufacturers to supply, and police forces to obtain, approved devices and put them to use. We are also finalising the additional requirements for type approving such devices for use at the roadside.”
At that point, one might add, “About time, too”. It continues:
“We will explore the case for introducing an offence of having a specified drug in the body while driving in addition to the current offence of driving while impaired by drugs. An objective measure of whether a drug driving offence has been committed should deliver a significant improvement in the enforcement of drug driving.
This is a complex issue and so we will continue the research and other work that is necessary before any decisions can be made. We cannot at this stage pre-empt that work by describing any additional offence, or give a firm date for its potential introduction. Any proposals will be subject to further consultation, regulatory clearance and other impact assessments in the usual way.”
I look forward to hearing from the Minister what further progress the Government have been able to make in this area since that report was issued. Finally, I join my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch in commending the Bill to the House.
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) on securing this important debate and moving the topic of drug-driving higher up the agenda. It is a great pleasure to follow the brief remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris).
Although I agree with many of the principles associated with the Bill, I am unable, for a number of reasons, to agree with the Bill as it is currently worded. Before I go on to detail those reasons, I stress that I am a trustee of a charity in Stevenage called The Living Room, which tries to break the cycle of addiction, specifically drug and alcohol addiction, and the devastating impact that that has on the lives of those who are addicted and, more often than not, their families. In many cases, the involvement of those individuals in criminal activities has a devastating impact on the victims and their families.
Drugs are a huge problem in our society and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry suggested, we must focus more on education, on ensuring that people who enter a world of drugs to escape their current reality recognise that that is not the right path, and on identifying why they take that line.
One of the issues that I have with the Bill is the nature of the offences as detailed. Primary legislation would probably be required for its provisions to be introduced. At present the offence is driving while impaired by drugs or causing death by careless driving while under the influence of drink or drugs. Although a roadside screening device can identify whether someone has drugs in their system, that will not necessarily be a criminal offence. The police need to have reason to believe that the person’s driving was impaired by having the drugs in their system.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North mentioned some tragic cases that were the result of an individual causing death by careless driving because of drugs. Under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the penalty was increased to 14 years, so the five years that such an individual would receive under the present law would be increased to 14 years. Section 4 of the 1988 Act stresses the need to show that the person was unfit to drive while under the influence of drugs. My hon. Friend detailed well the Department for Transport’s consultation in 2008, which asked for views on the creation of a possible new offence—driving with drugs in one’s system. That consultation closed in February 2009 and in December 2010 the Government announced that they would seek further advice from Sir Peter North.
My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry referred to Sir Peter North’s response. On the question of a new law setting banned drug levels, Sir Peter stated that the focus should be on public safety. Any new offence should therefore focus on establishing levels of drugs in the blood at which significant impairment and therefore risk to public safety can be reasonably assumed, as is the case now for drink-driving. That brings me back to my concern about the Bill. It would require primary legislation to introduce a new offence of driving while having drugs in the system.
Mr Nuttall
I am not entirely convinced that the Bill seeks to establish a new offence. It calls on the Secretary of State to approve a device for administering the preliminary drug test, which was envisaged in section 6A(1) of the 1988 Act. Will my hon. Friend expand a little on his objections to that?
Stephen McPartland
Indeed. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) said, the device used to establish drink-driving, the breathalyser, provides the evidential basis. My concern is that if a drug-screening device is produced in the next 12 months, it will identify whether people have drugs in their system, as opposed to the police stopping someone because they thought his driving was impaired by having drugs in his system. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch cited a case in which an individual was prosecuted for crashing his car and received eight weeks in prison for being under the influence of drugs.
As the law stands, if the police stop a driver because they feel that he is driving the vehicle irrationally and is impaired in some way, they have the power to take him back to the police station and test whether he has drugs in his system. Increasing the powers of the police would move us closer towards a police state, as they could stop anybody and test them for drugs, because the drug- screening device would have evidential power, whereas at present only a blood sample is allowed to be used in court.
Hon. Members have given a number of examples—discotheques in North East Somerset, dance clubs where one boogies in Daventry, or dance clubs in Bury North. Statistics show that 76% of young people surveyed admitted to having drugs in their system. That brings me to my second objection to the Bill, which is the social aspect. We would not want the police to use a drug-screening device to target younger people leaving such premises to identify whether they had drugs in their system. My concern is the practical one of the device being used in a slightly different way.
Chris Heaton-Harris
I understand my hon. Friend’s argument, but surely some existing drug-screening devices are appropriately used—for example, to detect drug use among the prison population. It is a case of horses for courses. If we try to keep ourselves focused on a device that is proven to work for a limited amount of illegal drugs for roadside use by the police, hopefully we can, with debates in the House and pressure on Ministers, maintain it for that use and not have it spread further in ways that might impinge on people’s liberty.
Stephen McPartland
I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments. As I have said, I also agree with many of the sentiments in the Bill. My concern is how it will be applied in practice. My real concern is how individuals will use these devices to target specific sections of society and then use that evidence to say that people are under the influence of drugs.
Mr Chope
The Bill would not introduce random testing. At the moment we do not allow random breath testing for alcohol and the Bill would not allow random testing for drugs. It would allow testing where the motorist has either been seen to be committing a road traffic offence, or been driving in a way that has caused the police to believe that he might be driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Stephen McPartland
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I agree with much of what he says, but the key point is that the police can already tell such individuals that they believe they are under the influence of drugs and will test them at the police station. I am not sure many police officers in Hertfordshire would be keen to allow an individual to get back into a vehicle and continue driving if they felt that the individual was sufficiently impaired to stop and question them in the first place. In nine cases out of 10 they would no doubt take them back to the police station and test them.
There is also the issue of costs and road safety. The previous Government and this Government have done a lot to highlight road safety. A number of excellent charities such as Brake are doing everything they can to ensure that people are educated in improving road safety and, for example, are made more aware of the fact that if people drive at 20 mph in a residential area instead of 30 mph, small children will be less likely to be killed. A lot of work has gone into that and I would refute the suggestion that the reason for the delay by parties on both side of the House was cost. The real reason, as the previous Government concluded, is that none of the previous devices have been considered sufficiently reliable to be used for roadside testing.
My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry spoke about specifications, and the Bill seeks to introduce the specification in the next 12 months. If the previous Government concluded that none of the specific kit out there is sufficiently reliable, I am not sure that we should simply say that one of those pieces of equipment should be taken on board within the next 12 months. My fear is that, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) mentioned on more than one occasion, that would endanger innocent people, and delay may not be the result of bureaucracy but of ensuring—
Mr Nuttall
All that the courts have to go on at the moment are roadside tests that make people walk back and forth and stand on one leg. Does my hon. Friend agree that they might welcome being able to look at scientific evidence produced by one of these devices?
Stephen McPartland
I hope that the Minister will respond to that point, and that the scientific evidence for the devices is being considered. Some of the statistics and evidence we have heard today do not provide any reliable comparisons, and we need to look at this further. I agree with the concept and know that we are all frustrated that we are not moving fast enough, but I am concerned that if people felt they were being wrongly prosecuted it would be open to judicial review and would drag on an awful lot longer. If we get the specification right to begin with, the process will move on much faster and further, and in practice rather than in theory.
It has taken such an unreasonably long time for the specification for a device to be approved because it has to be very detailed and precise, and no doubt one problem will be that the Government will want it to adhere to a specific rationale and the manufacturers will want it to be commercially viable, so there is that tension. Will the Minister invite manufacturers to propose specifications so that devices can be tested scientifically, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North has suggested? Is the specification unrealistically demanding? I do not think that any specification is unrealistically demanding if it prevents innocent people from being prosecuted unnecessarily, which is a key issue. We have to do what is right to ensure that innocent people are allowed to carry on with their lives and are not caught up in this process.
That brings me to a point about medication. I am not a scientist and so am unaware of how much theory, evidence and scientific support there is for the device. I can only identify the number of drugs that might be tested for—I cannot repeat their names, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North did so eloquently, no doubt challenging the Hansard reporters to spell them correctly. I am not sure whether medication would be picked up by the devices in the same way as some illegal drugs would be. Some people who take medicine prescribed by their doctor for health reasons could be accused of taking illegal drugs and, as a result, taken down to the police station and prosecuted. All that rigmarole will have a huge impact on their lives simply because they are taking medication. It is really important that the drug-screening device, which I fully support, does the right job at the right time and that we ensure that we stop people who are under the influence of illegal drugs.
Finally, I feel that the delay is of paramount importance to protect innocent people who are taking medication. We do not want the drug-screening device to be used to stop and search people. It is very important that those who are considered to be driving under the influence of drugs are prosecuted in exactly the same way as they are at present. Although I fully support the actual intention of the Bill, I cannot support it at the moment because of its current wording and its instruction to the Government to agree on a device within the next 12 months.