Employment and Support Allowance (Sanctions) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

Before I conclude, I look over to my colleagues. I think that I am probably going to have to follow this up.

[Lord Wigley]

I will raise another question which has not been covered; it might give the Minister a little more time to get answers to the questions. On the information that has been given to me, it is noted that a full impact assessment has not been published for the instrument because it has no impact on the private sector or civil society organisations. I am surprised that this does not have some impact on civil society organisations. Many such organisations deal with the people who are impacted by these changes. I would be glad of some clarification, to know exactly when impact assessments are made and when they are not.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am afraid that I will have to write to the noble Lord on that one. I do not have the answer immediately in front of me.

I can at least respond to one of the questions put to me by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. On appeals against WCA outcomes—the decision as to whether to put somebody in the work-related activity group or the support group—42% of appeals heard by the tribunal in the first quarter of this financial year were successful. What I do not have is the number of actual appeals. Regrettably, I will have to follow up in writing to the noble Lord on the other question that he raised about appeals. That notwithstanding, I hope that I have been able to provide enough information to satisfy the Committee today that these new regulations, which introduce this new sanctions regime, as I stressed at the start, very much emphasise the importance of the requirements on people in the work-related activity group as to how they can return to the workforce at the right time. That is what most people in work-related activity definitely want. It is our responsibility to make sure that they are clear on their requirements and that those requirements help them in that regard.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, I rise to support what the noble Baroness has just said. One of the first things that I did when I joined the House of Lords was to speak in favour of admittedly a similar aspiration provision, but in my view appropriately. It might have been on an amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in legislation in 2000. The concept eventually found its way into the 2006 Act.

When Parliament agreed this provision it was on the basis of discussion with a wide range of organisations. It was widely welcomed. Why? We do not have a fair and unprejudiced society. It may be that everyone in this room is fair-minded, but fairness and good relations between groups do not exist when, for example, Gypsy, Traveller and Roma people are harassed about where they can live. The noble Baroness mentioned that young people now describe themselves as Muslim in larger numbers. Gypsy and Traveller children dare not describe themselves as Gypsies and Travellers, because of the things that have happened to them.

We have a society in which children with disabilities are bullied in school. Members of minority groups that make up our society are denied jobs because of stereotyped expectations. Old people are despised and neglected. The ordinary self-respect that people need, particularly children, is undermined. This is at the expense of social cohesion and an ordinarily decent society. I support this group. I think that it is necessary to give the EHRC a proper strategic approach to help bring about a fair society.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am very glad of the opportunity to intervene briefly in this debate and should declare an interest in regard to my involvement with Mencap Wales, Autism Cymru and a number of other disability organisations. I congratulate warmly the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, on introducing this important amendment. I agree with what she said, as I did with the noble Lord, Lord Low.

I recall the battles in the 1990s to establish disability rights. Those battles were led by Lord Ashley, Lord Morris, John Hannam and others, across party boundaries, because of the importance of enshrining in law the principles of rights. My fear is that we are in danger of a movement backwards today.

The general duty is necessary to avoid regulatory gaps or the effect of overlaps. Rather than being repealed, it should, if anything, be amended to establish more clearly the EHRC’s overriding purpose, powers and duties and to support the focus on being an equality regulator and a general human rights institution.

I have concern also about the proposal to move from a three-year to a five-year progress report cycle. There is a real danger here that if the cycle were to start coinciding with the electoral cycle, we could find many of these issues becoming politicised, which is in nobody’s interest. I have further reservations about the repeal of the conciliation powers, which would amount to the loss of the EHRC’s wide-ranging, background role in monitoring the effects of legislation.

The Government need to make a very strong case for repealing Section 3 as the Bill proposes, and I doubt that they can do so. If they are not prepared to think again between now and Report, we should support similar amendments at that stage in the Chamber in order to give the EHRC and all involved in disability the strongest possible messages.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I apologise to the mover of the amendment that I was not present when she spoke. I shall be extremely brief, because I explained at Second Reading that nothing in this clause would remove any of the commission’s powers or functions and why I regarded what was being deleted as not harming, but improving, the performance of the commission.

The general duty arose not in the 2010 Act but in the 2006 Act, and the 2006 Act unfortunately put the cart before the horse, as some will remember. Instead of doing what was done in the 2010 Act, which was to reform the underlying discrimination law and bring it all together, the then Government instead put the cart before the horse by setting up a commission without having reformed the underlying law. They put into the 2006 Act this general duty, which is unenforceable and purely aspirational—for those who pull faces when I say that, I remind them of the aspirational language, which is very fine but not capable of being enforced in any court of law. What they did in addition to that, and which is unaffected by the Bill now before the Committee, was to put in Section 8:

“The Commission shall, by exercising the powers conferred by this Part … promote understanding of the importance of equality and diversity … encourage good practice in relation to equality and diversity … promote equality of opportunity … promote awareness and understanding of rights under the equality enactments … enforce the equality enactments … work towards the elimination of unlawful discrimination, and … work towards the elimination of unlawful harassment”.

That is in Section 8 and is unaffected by anything in this present Bill. They then went on in Section 9, also unaffected by this Bill, to provide that:

“The Commission shall, by exercising the powers conferred by this Part … promote understanding of the importance of human rights … encourage good practice in relation to human rights … promote awareness, understanding and protection of human rights, and … encourage public authorities to comply with section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998”.

Those are completely intact, as are all the enforcement powers given to the commission under the 2010 Act. Rather like the socio-economic disadvantage rhetoric that the Government have rightly not sought to rely on, all that has been taken away in the general duty is the following:

“The Commission shall exercise its functions under this Part with a view to encouraging and supporting the development of a society in which … people’s ability to achieve their potential is not limited by prejudice or discrimination ... there is respect for and protection of each individual’s human rights … there is respect for the dignity and worth of each individual … each individual has an equal opportunity to participate in society, and there is mutual respect between groups based on understanding and valuing of diversity and on shared respect for equality and human rights”.

Everybody in the Committee would agree with those sentiments, but the point that I make as a lawyer, for which I do not apologise, is that none of that is capable of being enforceable in any way. A duty that is written in water—it is clearly aspirational—may make us all feel joyful but it is not sensible to have it in legislation for a commission that in the past, as many in this Room will know, has been distracted by an overbroad and vague mandate. It is time that the new commission, as it were, concentrated on what it is meant to do, which is strategic law enforcement and everything else associated with that. I know that I am in a minority in this Committee but I for one consider that it is perfectly legitimate to get rid of Section 3, while retaining intact all the commission’s powers and statutory functions.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Indeed, so my predecessor told me, but since then we have had the great advantage of electronic checking and back came the reply just as I have given it. That may be for the assistance of future proceedings of Grand Committee.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, before we leave that point, it would be very helpful if the Annunciator could keep up with the debate, so that we can be here in time, because there are times when it is five or 10 minutes behind in showing the changes of speakers and the issue being debated.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

With great respect to the noble Lord, that is known as the art of keen anticipation, which I learnt many, many years ago.

Unemployment: Older Women

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

Noble Lords will all be aware of our concern to reduce the level of inactivity in the economy and the level of unemployment is only one way of looking at the figures. The most important thing is how many people are employed and what is happening to the level of inactivity. I am pleased to say that the level of inactivity for this group is going down quite sharply. Since the election, 110,000 fewer people are inactive, and that is something we are continuing to drive.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, is there not a danger of being a little complacent in this matter? Does the Minister accept that between August 2011 and August 2012, there was, over the UK as a whole, an increase of 7% in the unemployment rate for women over 50, but in Wales the increase was 14%, which is quite worrying? Does he accept that there is cause for concern and that we should take steps to minimise those figures?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, when you have scarce resources, you must direct them efficiently. When you look at other groups with high rates of unemployment—the rate is 16% for women in the 18 to 24 age group while in this group the rate is 3.9%—you have to consider where you can most efficiently direct support. Do not forget that in the time we are talking about pension age has been increasing. The element of the impact of the increase is very small on a figure of unemployment that across the economy as a whole is probably below the rate of frictional unemployment.

Workers’ Memorial Day

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that alongside my colleague Chris Grayling I wrote to the general-secretary of the TUC on the matter of Workers’ Memorial Day. We are in regular contact with him on a large number of matters, and this is one of them.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, on the question of mesothelioma, to which the Minister referred a moment ago, can he indicate whether the ideas which he will be working on over the coming period will require legislation? If so, why are the Government not taking advantage of the legislation that is currently going through this House?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, it is possible, depending on the outcome, that we will need primary legislation on mesothelioma. However these things take time and we will have to structure any solution in consultation with the various stakeholders in order to get there. There is not time at the moment to attach any relevant legislation quite as rapidly as the noble Lord suggests.

Health: Pneumoconiosis

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wigley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many payments of compensation were made, in the most recent year for which figures are available, under the provisions of the Pneumoconiosis Etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, and how many of these were made to former slate quarrymen.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)]

In the year from April 2010 to March 2011, 2,820 payments were made in total under the Pneumoconiosis Etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979. We are not able to identify how many payments were made specifically in respect of former slate quarrymen.

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[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, the Minister will clearly be aware that, while the 1979 pneumoconiosis Act was primarily triggered by the plight of slate quarrymen who were unable otherwise to secure compensation for industrial lung diseases they suffered, most of the beneficiaries have, quite fairly, been from other industries. Is he aware that while some coal-miners suffering emphysema and chronic bronchitis have secured compensation under the 1979 Act, former slate quarrymen suffering emphysema and chronic bronchitis—which are equally endemic in slate quarrying as in coal-mining—cannot be compensated under the Act? Will he discuss this with fellow Ministers so that this small but long-suffering group of slate quarrymen can achieve the justice to which they are equally entitled?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I was not aware of this discrepancy, so I will go back and have a look at exactly what is behind it, because I just do not know.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

There are things that I thank the Minister for but there remain considerable concerns. I await his response to these remarks.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, as the Minister will know, I have a considerable interest in this matter. We have debated it long and hard over recent weeks. I would like to take up the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about the substantial effect that these changes could have on those who are in dire poverty. I would like to add a dimension to that: the position of those who may be in circumstances of uncertainty. The uncertainty regarding the benefit that may be available to help disabled children may in fact compound the difficulties faced by those families.

In those circumstances, I would like to press the Minister—while recognising the efforts that he has undoubtedly made to try to meet us on some of these points, despite the constraints of finance—on whether he can give any indication of the likely timing and mechanisms of these changes taking place. He referred to the fact that it will be 2015 before all the associated changes are in place. I am not sure whether to interpret that as an indication that the timescale may be so long that it will be 2016 before the changes are implemented. If I am wrong about that, what is the purpose of his flagging up the facts that we will know in 2015? If I am right about the implication of his statement being that there will be a delay until 2015 or, more likely, 2016 before the impact of these changes is felt, it would certainly give people time to start making adjustments, and the Government and this Chamber time for further consideration. If that is the intention, what would be the mechanism in 2015 or thereabouts to implement the changes that the Minister has in mind? If the mechanism is to be by order—that is, unamendable—that always causes misgivings in this place and other places. If it were possible at that stage to have a more general debate before an order was brought forward, it would give us an opportunity to pursue these matters in detail in light of what happens between now and then. I do not know whether these suggestions are in line with what the Minister indicated or whether I misunderstood what he said. However, I would be grateful if he could address these points when he responds.

[Baroness Wilkins]

My Lords, it was shocking that the other place left so little time for the important amendment concerning the disability addition for children. It received scant debate. I strongly support the current amendment for the reasons that I gave at Third Reading, and trust that the Minister now understands the damage that the Bill will do to disabled children unless action is taken.

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[Lord Freud]

It will depend on what comes out of the review. If it concerns child PIP, which it may very well be, which is a recasting of the whole structure, we may need primary legislation; but if it is an adjustment of DLA, I think we may not. It will depend on the outcome of the review, which will be serious and substantial. One issue that noble Lords are raising is that there is dissatisfaction with the way that we are applying these rates. There is general dissatisfaction about whether we are using the right criteria. We have one rather simple criterion at the moment. Building that review of how we do it will be a substantial exercise. The interesting thing about this debate is the general level of dissatisfaction about whether we are using the right definitions to get to the right children and the right families. Funnily enough, that has been one of the main things driving us to make this commitment.

We have here a commitment that either we are going with a major review of the child PIP or, if not, a fallback where there will be a review anyway, albeit within the context of the DLA. That is the commitment, and I can tell your Lordships that it has been somewhat hard fought.

[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for the clarification, which is very helpful. With such an important review, would it be reasonable to assume that, in the normal way of things, there would be opportunities to debate the outcome of the review here in the Chamber before orders were drawn up to implement any of the conclusions?

[Lord Freud]

I think that we will be discussing this a lot in the years to come—it is not a dead issue. When you set up such a review, it generates its own momentum. Noble Lords know how powerful a review in this kind of area is. Once you have a review like this and the momentum that follows from it, something happens reasonably rapidly. I do not think that you have set it in absolute terms because it becomes an irresistible force. Therefore, I do not think that that is a concern. The exact nature of what we then do begs a lot of questions that we simply do not need to ask. However, with regard to how we carry out the review, the involvement of this House will be taken very much into account.

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[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, I support the amendment. I thank both the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his persistence and the way in which he has dug deep into the issues concerned with the bedroom tax, and the Minister for the way in which he has listened and responded.

I want to contribute to the debate because of the danger sometimes that, amid the plethora of words, we will cease to be moved by the situation of and the fear felt by those who will suffer because of elements of the Bill, particularly those with disabilities and those who care for children with disabilities. The day before yesterday could be observed as Autism Sunday, an observance that is apparently supported by the slightly curious trio of the Prime Minister, the Pope and Sir Cliff Richard. That occasion gave me the chance to listen again to those who are fearful about the results of the Bill’s dealing with the bedroom tax. People spoke to me of the way in which their disabled children and their whole family life would be affected by the bedroom tax. They have come to contribute to our society by caring for their own disabled child, perhaps with a disability that many would not regard as being one of the most serious that people face, but nevertheless one that for people in that situation can be a very frightening experience as their young people grow up.

This modest amendment would not solve all the problems of those who came to talk to me on Sunday, those who go to their parish priests with the issues of looking after children with disabilities or those children themselves, who are often members of our congregations. I hope that we shall be able to hear their voice as we respond to need in this area. I look forward to the Minister’s response, and hope that he can find a way through this tangle. Then I, too, will be reliant upon the skill and experience of the noble Lord, Lord Best, as we consider whether and how to vote on the amendment.

[Lord Wigley]

I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, and thank him for the tremendous work that he did in Committee, on Report and in other contexts relating to housing matters. I shall emphasise three aspects relating to the people who will be hit unless amendments such as these are carried or other provisions are made. First, we have heard a lot about disabled people. We cannot apply the provisions of the Bill as it stands to disabled people without potentially doing enormous harm. Secondly, we should consider children in vulnerable families. Thirdly, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, touched upon this aspect and I emphasise it too: rural areas.

In rural areas such as those that I am familiar with in rural Snowdonia and the Llyn peninsula, but I am sure that this is equally true in Cornwall, the Lake District and other parts of these islands, there are people living in villages in rented accommodation. If they have to move out of their accommodation—these are often three-bedroom houses, as has previously been mentioned—there are just no other rented houses available anywhere near the communities. We may be talking about them having to move 20 or 30 miles away to find somewhere. People might think that at one time there were two-bedroom council houses in some of these villages. However, they were a minority that were quickly sold off; and rapidly, with the cycle of the years, became second homes in the private sector for people who went on holiday to those areas. Rent in the private sector is prohibitive because of the rent that can be secured in the holiday season. As a result, often only winter lets are available for six months outside the holiday period. In those circumstances in such areas, it is not reasonable to apply this law in a blanket fashion to vulnerable people who may find themselves with one bedroom more than they need.

The amendment would not go all the way to meeting all the concerns that many of us raised during earlier stages of the Bill, but at least it would start to ameliorate them. Some step has to be taken. We cannot allow this to go on to the statute book with the effect that it will have on rural areas, disabled people and children. What the position of disabled children in rural areas will be, goodness only knows.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord German]

I do not know whether this is the right place in the debate in which to do it because it is the first time that I have had the opportunity, but I want to place on record our thanks to the Bill team and my noble friend the Minister for the way in which they have handled the Bill all the way through. The way in which access to civil servants has been granted and the openness with which the Minister has provided information has been a revelation. I am most grateful, as I am sure are my colleagues on these Benches.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, since this opportunity is being taken to say thank you, perhaps I may from our Benches—I am sure that others will want to do likewise—thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, for the courteous and happy way in which they have handled the Bill. The Minister has always had a smile on his face despite the fact that there have been occasions when I am sure he felt otherwise. He has always been eager and helpful in responding to inquiries. There is a danger that he will become known in the House as “the latter-day Lord Newton”; in other words, the person who the disability lobby knows is really on its side but whose hands are sometimes tied. There can be worse tributes than that. We are very grateful for all the time and consideration that he has given during the past few weeks.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Before the Minister answers the question that I posed earlier, perhaps I may take the opportunity to add our thanks. The Minister’s enthusiasm for universal credit and his commitment to evidence-based policy have been evident to all of us. He has borne a very heavy load in bringing the Bill through your Lordships' House and has done so, as has just been said, with good humour throughout our proceedings. The fact that noble Lords have sought to beg to differ on a number of provisions does not lessen our respect for him or for the determination that he brings to his role. He has of course been ably supported by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, and other colleagues. Our thanks go also to the Bill team for their extensive briefings and provision of information, and the helpful way in which they have engaged. I have seen the operation of a Bill team as a Minister and am aware that we see just part of a huge operation which underpins the calm presence that we see in the Box. The scope, the size and the innovative context of the Bill will have added to this challenge. Of course, I thank my team on these Benches for their expertise, passion and support. As I have said previously, I would not have wished to face such a battery when I was a Minister.

The important changes that we have made to the Bill do not belong to us; they are the result of the voices, votes, knowledge, experience and compassion on all Benches in your Lordships' House. I have no doubt that what we send back to the other place is a much better Bill but also one which does not fundamentally undermine universal credit. It remains to be seen what returns in due course. Thus far, I have no doubt that your Lordships' House has done its job in holding the Government to account. What we are dealing with in this Bill touches the lives of millions, including many of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable in our country. Our duty to them is not yet concluded.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I support this amendment. I am not going to repeat what I said at Second Reading, in Committee and at Report stage, save to emphasise once again that as a family who lost two severely handicapped boys we know the impact of cost when there is disability in the family. Although at their latter stages they would undoubtedly have had the highest available support, at earlier stages they would probably not under the definitions now current. There are thousands of children and families who will most certainly miss out.

We are told that Disability Rights UK is very concerned about the impact that this will have on families with disabled children and particularly, as in our case, on those with more than one disabled child. It is concerned about the effect that it will have on the longer-term life chances if they grow up in poverty. The Minister said at Report stage that,

“the impact of the reform of disability payments on the number of disabled children living in relative poverty will be negligible”.—[Official Report, 12/12/11; col. 1055.]

Negligible—that is not the assessment of others. The Children’s Society estimates that over 40 per cent of disabled children already live in poverty. The Minister conceded at Report stage that we are talking about taking £200 million and redirecting it. What will be the effect of taking £200 million off those who already are very near to poverty? That is surely not acceptable.

The Minister emphasised at Report stage the provisions of the transitional arrangements being made, but he conceded that as inflation bites—and it is still running at 5 per cent—the value of this will erode, which will be a real loss to these most vulnerable people. If this issue is to be considered further, as the mover of the amendment requested, and the Government give it further thought, we must keep the issue alive by adopting the amendment today. Otherwise we will lose the opportunity. I beg the Government either to accept this or to come back with their own amendments in another place and bring them here—or, alternatively, I suggest that we as a House ensure that they are carried.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I, too, wish to speak relatively briefly to this important amendment. In the course of my neurological training and in my career, I spent some time assessing children with cerebral palsy who attended the excellent Percy Hedley centre in Newcastle upon Tyne and received outstanding treatment. However, when I saw the varying degrees of disability produced by this group of conditions—a group of immense variability—and saw the effect that the condition of these children had on their families, sometimes leading to family breakdown, as the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, said, I became increasingly concerned about the evidence of the disability and the resultant poverty which developed in many of these families.

Some of my personal research was dealing with a progressive disease—Duchenne muscular dystrophy—where young boys born apparently normal would begin at about the age of three to have difficulty in walking. They then began to have problems with falling frequently and getting up from the floor, and progressively became increasingly disabled so that many of them were taken to a wheelchair by the time that they were aged 10. I saw the effect that this had when not just one but two boys might be affected in an individual family, and the problems faced by those parents were immense. I shall never forget one mother saying to me, “I see my son die a little every day”.

I am not talking just about static conditions such as cerebral palsy—although even in cerebral palsy as the child becomes older, the disability may remain neurologically non-progressive—but about the problems that begin to emerge over schooling and a whole series of other issues, which become increasingly important and increasingly matters for concern. I could go on about my personal experience in the field of neurology and paediatric neurology but I would simply say that this is a very worthwhile amendment, and one which deserves your Lordships' support.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I have listened to what has been said and there has been quite a lot of support for the amendment. Indeed, some of the figures are very alarming, including the amount that lack of provision costs the economy. My question concerns how much of what we are talking about in the amendment is available within a reasonable distance of where people with these conditions live. If there is not an adequate supply, which I have a sneaking suspicion may be the case, what are the Government’s plans to ensure a reasonable regional, at the very least, supply of this form of treatment?

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I support the amendment and I am very grateful to the noble Lord for bringing it forward. It is important that we do not allow this dimension not to have the necessary attention before this Bill completes its passage. Everyone accepts that mental illness is a widespread challenge and we all commit to the need for something to be done. Yet, decade after decade, we hear the same noises being made and we wonder whether progress has been achieved.

As has been said by a number of noble Lords tonight, it is not just for the benefit of the individual—clearly it is to the individual’s benefit if he or she can remain in work or get into work with the necessary intervention, help and support—as it is also clearly of benefit to society as a whole and to the economy.

Following on from the comments we have just heard about the regional dimension, I should like to add the rural dimension. It is difficult enough for those with mental illness problems in cities but it is sometimes even more difficult in rural areas where there are not the support networks within anything like reasonable distances. In any thinking that the Government may be doing on this, perhaps that also could be taken on board. Even though this proposal may not find its way into the Bill, I hope that the Minister is in a position to indicate to the House the thinking on the way that this dimension can be taken forward.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield]

My Lords, I, too, add my support for this amendment, which was moved very powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale. As other noble Lords have said, all we need is a little bit of joining up between some of the important work that has been taken forward by the DWP and Jobcentre Plus, the very laudable intentions of the work programme and the work being promoted by the Department of Health. I have looked at the DoH website and its work in relation to increasing access to psychological therapies. It talks about how it is now much more possible to join up the help being provided to those with mental health problems as regards their anxiety and depression, as well as helping them back into work.

One example of which I am aware involves Relate, the charity in which I have a declared interest, working closely with Mind in the Hull and East Yorkshire region and the Humber NHS foundation trust. Working together, the programme that they are providing for people with mental health problems is helping to tackle their anxiety and depression while, because they have an employment adviser on hand, helping to get them back into work and to stay in work. This is the sort of approach that we should be advocating. It just needs a little more joining up, which is exactly the spirit of this amendment. I also hope that it will be possible to have further discussions on these important bits of joining up between the welfare state and providers in the voluntary sector.

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[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 62G, 62H, 62J and 62L, which have been brought forward to ensure that the commission’s duty to report on child poverty in the UK does not duplicate the responsibilities of the devolved Administrations. They clarify that accountability for progress on devolved matters affecting child poverty will remain with the devolved Administrations. They have been developed in close consultation with those Administrations.

The Government have always been of the view that the new commission will be most effective if it continues to have a UK-wide remit. That is why it will continue to have a member appointed by a Minister from each of the devolved Administrations, in addition to the members appointed by UK Ministers. However, it is important that the commission does not unduly duplicate the scrutiny measures already provided by each of the devolved Administrations. We have therefore agreed that the annual reports will not present the commission’s views on the progress of the devolved strategies. The reports will only describe the child poverty measures taken by the relevant devolved Ministers. This approach will ensure that responsibility for scrutiny of the content of the devolved strategies remains with the devolved Administrations.

Secondly, these amendments also enable Northern Ireland to join the commission at a later date, if the Northern Ireland Assembly passes a Motion to that effect and a Minister of the Crown makes a corresponding order. Until then, the commission’s report is not required to comment on the Northern Ireland child poverty strategy, and the commission will not have a member appointed by the relevant Northern Ireland department. By giving the Assembly this option, this approach allows us to proceed with the commission for the rest of the UK, respects the rights of the Northern Ireland Assembly and ensures that we adhere to the principles of the devolution settlements while ensuring that the Sewel convention is not breached. These amendments ensure that we can create a commission which can sit effectively alongside existing devolved provisions and report on progress across the UK.

Amendments 62EA and 71 clarify the provisions in the Child Poverty Act 2010 that set out the requirements for UK child poverty strategies. The Act requires each UK strategy to,

“describe the progress that the Secretary of State considers need to be made”,

over the period of the strategy. The current UK child poverty strategy does this in detail. It sets out the radical package of reforms that the Government are introducing and provides a clear timeline for progress in terms of policy implementation. However, the strategy does not set interim targets for reductions in child poverty by the end of the three-year strategy period. We do not wish to incentivise the short-term income-transfer approach in which small amounts of moneys are given to families to lift them just over the poverty line. This is the easiest way to improve child poverty figures but it does not strike at the heart of the problem. This is what our reforms will do, tackling the root causes of poverty and providing a sustainable solution which will enable us to meet the 2020 targets.

This approach is absolutely in line with both the letter and the spirit of the Child Poverty Act. It is important to confirm in statute our existing understanding that the Act does not require progress in this context to be expressed in numerical terms or interim targets. These amendments will ensure that it is a matter for the Secretary of State to decide how the strategy should describe progress and make it crystal clear that a long-term approach such as that outlined above is in line with the requirements of the Act. These amendments will ensure that the commission does not duplicate the responsibilities of devolved Administrations and clarifies the requirements for child poverty strategies.

The Government see Amendments 62H, 62J and 62L as directly consequential upon Amendment 62G. However, further Divisions would be required should noble Lords wish to push the other amendments in this group to a vote. I beg to move.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments that deal with the devolved Administrations. I wondered until almost the last sentence that the Minister spoke exactly what the game was going to be. From what I understand, it will be mainly in terms of the avoidance of duplication. I do not know whether I have got that right—and perhaps the Minister can indicate whether it is mainly the avoidance of duplication, as opposed to giving anything additional with regard to the powers.

The 2020 target has had considerable enthusiastic support in Wales, but the progress has not always been as positive as one would have hoped. Of course, definitions of child poverty can sometimes be a problem, as I am sure that the Minister will immediately acknowledge. It is not just with regard to absolute levels of poverty; it is to do with relative levels as well. Perhaps the Minister will respond to this. One challenge is to get joined-up thinking between the devolved Administrations which have responsibility for social services, education, community services and local government. Many of the other responsibilities are in Westminster, particularly the economy and taxation and the transfer of resources. That is clearly important in cracking this problem. I welcome any steps being taken here that bring greater coherence and better working together between the various parts of these islands for that purpose. But I hope that something additional will come into the equation that enables greater progress to be made to eradicate child poverty, not just in Wales but throughout the UK.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we are supportive of Amendments 62G, 62H and 62K. As we have heard, Amendments 62G and 62H clarify the position with regard to the devolved Administrations and Amendments 62J and 62L do so with regard to Northern Ireland. The briefing note explains that Amendments 62G and 62J ensure that there is no overlap between the role of the commission and the devolved Administrations by ensuring that the commission describes rather than assesses progress on each of the devolved Administration’s strategies. Could the Minister confirm, however, that the commission will still take a UK-wide view and ensure that it assesses progress across the whole country, including assessing where central government may need to take specific actions on those policies within its remit in a particular nation?

I listened carefully to what the Minister said about Amendment 62EA, clarifying the requirement in the Child Poverty Act for UK child poverty strategies to describe the process that the Secretary of State considers needs to be made by the end of the period. The department says that the amendment will confirm the Government’s existing understanding that a description of the progress in narrative or policy terms meets the requirements of the Act. Perhaps the Minister can say a little bit more about this amendment. As I understand it, the intention of the Child Poverty Act was to ensure that the Government set out a strategy to ensure that this progress was made rather than simply describe, perhaps in numerical terms, what that progress would look like. We would be concerned if the effect of the amendment was to weaken the duty on the Government to set out such a strategy.

Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Wigley Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I concur completely with what the noble Lord, Lord Newton, has just said. We obviously will not oppose these amendments, but that should not be taken to mean that we are supportive of this proposition. When I say that I concur completely, I am not saying I am sure that this is the single silliest thing in this Bill—but it is certainly in the top 10. The briefing note that we had makes it clear that the support for council tax in future is likely to be based on a system of means-tested discounts. How on earth that can sit sensibly with universal credit and single tapers is a mystery to me. Maybe we will be enlightened when we get that legislation, which I think will come our way quite shortly. We could have a long debate around this today, as it is a real flaw in the universal credit, but I accept the need for this amendment, as it makes the data-sharing coherent.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, may I have one word of clarification about the interplay between these provisions on council tax and how they play with the devolved authorities? There are provisions lower down, on page 100, relating to the National Assembly for Wales, but this brings in a new dimension in that local government in Wales comes under the Assembly as well. Is there agreement with the Assembly Ministers on the provisions which the Minister is putting into the Bill by way of these amendments?