Scottish Independence

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

As we have said many times in this Chamber, the Scottish people had their say in 2014. Some 3.6 million Scots voted: 84% of the electorate. It was the highest turnout anywhere other than Australia, where it is compulsory to vote. In it, 2 million voted to stay and 1.6 million voted to leave. That is a decisive result.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one exemplar of the SNP’s capability in economic and industrial terms is shipbuilding? We have provided incredible orders on the Clyde and at Babcock for our Navy, yet the only area in which the SNP has been involved are some ferries which are something like three years overdue and had to have windows painted on them because holes had not been cut. It is now thinking of building them somewhere else. Does the Minister agree that that is an exemplar of what the SNP can achieve?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord has great knowledge of these matters. The UK Government have just announced £4 billion of new shipbuilding orders coming to the Clyde and Rosyth. It has been noted that in the last five years the naval shipyards in Scotland have built four frigates while the SNP cannot get two rusting ferries off the dock. It is very clear that we have great competence and strength in our naval shipyards. Sadly, that is not the case within the Scottish Government’s remit.

Belhaj and Boudchar: Litigation Update

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Clearly, I am not in a position to determine the timing of the ISC report, but my understanding is—and the expectation is—that it will be published later this year.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this Statement: it is very clear in drawing a line under matters. Things have changed since these events happened. I was the Security Minister at the time and when I asked the question about rendition, I was told, as a Minister in the Government, that it was not going on. Does the Minister feel that this could not possibly happen again now because of the changes that have been put in place by a number of noble Lords, when they were in the other place, and by the committees that are in place or does he think that such a thing could happen again, where a tiny cabal of people is able to do something and there is no way of breaking this out?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am confident that we have put in place such measures as will ensure that there will be no repetition of this.

Scottish Independence Referendum

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what response has been given to the Scottish First Minister in response to her request for a further referendum on Scottish independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, a little over two years ago people in Scotland voted decisively to remain part of our United Kingdom in a referendum. The UK Government remain of the view that there should not be a further referendum on independence. Even at this late hour we call on the Scottish Government to take it off the table. Another referendum would be divisive and cause huge economic uncertainty at the worst possible time.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I should declare that I lived in Scotland for many years and was educated there. Does the Minister not agree that, to give clarity to the people of Scotland, if a referendum is allowed it is essential that it is held after the Brexit negotiations are completed, not in the midst of complex negotiations with no ability whatever to understand the implications of the detailed agreements being worked on?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am sure that the noble Lord received a very good Scottish education. Regarding the negotiations, Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday that she wanted the UK to get a good deal. I can think of nothing more calculated to undermine the achievement of a good deal than holding a divisive and disruptive independence referendum during the last six months of one of the most important peacetime negotiations this country has ever faced. At this time we should be working together to get the best possible deal for the whole of the UK and each part of it, particularly Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in view of the unexpected taciturnity of the noble Lord, Lord West, would the Minister care to hazard a guess as to the consequences for warship building on the Clyde in the event of independence?

[Lord West of Spithead]

Hurrah!

[Lord Dunlop]

Some very positive investment announcements have been made regarding the Clyde. It is the centre of excellence for surface warship building and that would not happen if Scotland were ripped out of the United Kingdom.

Lay Magistrates

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

—it might be noted that of course they take on an increasing burden but against the background of a decreasing rate of criminal activity.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the captains of RN ships are trained, to an extent, as lay magistrates to conduct summary trial, and they must form a nice pool, when they retire, to go into this area. Does the Minister agree that if we had more ships and more people, this would help?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble Lord raises an interesting cross-departmental issue. One downside to his proposal would be its negative impact on our concern to ensure the age spectrum of those sitting on the magistrates’ Bench.

Northern Ireland Assembly Election

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I absolutely give my noble friend that assurance. The lines of communication will remain open. We need an open dialogue during this period. It is in everybody’s interest to make a success of devolved government. As the Secretary of State made clear earlier, he is not contemplating alternatives to the re-establishment of a fully functioning Executive.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, given the context of the current confusion, will the Minister consider the issue of natural justice for those of our servicemen who are accused of acts allegedly committed more than 40 years ago? Will something be done to stop that happening given that nothing has happened with regard to members of the IRA, for example, who have allegedly committed atrocities? I hope that this will not now go on the back burner because of all the confusion.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord. Certainly, the Government absolutely recognise the unsatisfactory nature of the current state of affairs. As I said earlier, we pay tribute to the work that the PSNI and the Armed Forces have done over the years in creating the conditions in which the peace process could develop, and of course the work will continue. It is very important to build a consensus. It is a high priority for the Secretary of State to bring about reform that brings about a fairer and more balanced and proportionate system for examining and dealing with the issues of the past. We will continue to do that. However, that is why—I come back to this point—we need to work so hard to get stable devolved institutions back functioning. The Stormont House agreement provided a framework. We believe that the legacy institutions set out in that agreement provide the basis for that fair, balanced and proportionate way forward on legacy issues.

Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the last two Questions have been looking at incarceration. The Minister may be aware that at this time 77 years ago the “Graf Spee” put itself voluntarily into incarceration in Montevideo because it had been outfaced by three British cruisers—three of the 420 ships we had in the Royal Navy at that time. No doubt the noble and learned Lord will wish to congratulate the small handful of survivors of that very famous victory.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Absolutely.

Investigatory Powers Bill

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the Minister on this group of amendments. As I do not propose to speak on the next and final group, I just want to make a couple of general points about the Bill, which will take only a minute or two.

This is the final day of our deliberations on the Bill, which has had a remarkable passage through Parliament. That is mainly due to the fact that the Government had a draft Bill, and there was also the independent report on surveillance and the work of the Joint Committee. Added to that, the Government were willing to respond to points made by amending the Bill. There will of course be only one issue for the Members of the Commons, who will see a non-government amendment on the matter on which we have just voted and on which I do not wish to comment.

I hope that Labour Party Members in the House of Commons will support the hundreds of Lords amendments. Many of these have been proposed by members of parties other than the government party, although a lot have come from the Government. They make this legislation more than a government Act; in my view, it is truly a parliamentary Act, given the input from other parties.

When the Bill was introduced in the Commons in March this year, I broke a 15-year vow of silence by speaking at the Parliamentary Labour Party to oppose the idea that Labour should abstain if there was a vote at Second Reading. I pleaded for support for the Bill at that point. However, there are still people on the Labour Benches in the Commons who oppose the Bill and I think that my colleagues there should ignore them. It is not a snoopers’ charter; it is not draconian; and it is not a stop-and-search power for the digital age. It will make UK citizens safer. Whether one looks at things like the request filter, the oversight procedures, the privacy protection or the obligations on communications service providers, just to take four aspects, it is a Bill that deserves active support, not sniping from the sidelines or the Front Bench.

There is one hole in the Bill. The Bill is about the state and its duties and responsibilities. The gaping hole now is the use that commercial service providers make of personal information given to them by citizens as they use the services. On page 41 of the report of the RUSI panel, on which I had the honour to serve, we listed the word length of the terms and conditions of popular internet services, and I do not propose to go over those again. All we do as users is tick a box, which means that companies analyse the content of our search results and the content of our emails when we send and receive them and when they are stored. This is done so that we can receive targeted advertising. Indeed, one service provider has filed a patent about being able to sense the mood of the user so that it is better able to make more profit. The Government will not be allowed to do that under this legislation, and Labour MPs should think about that if they are asked to oppose the Bill.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I support these amendments and I strongly support my noble friend Lord Rooker in everything that he has said. This Bill is a classic example of how a Bill should come through this place. The way in which it has been built up across Parliament has been remarkable. It meets all the requirements for our security and for personal liberty, and we should be very proud of it.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I was going to speak later but I will speak now, as I am driven to do so by the comments of previous speakers.

The Bill is undoubtedly better than it was at the start. It could not help but be because of all the effort that people have put into making it better, but it is still a most appalling piece of legislation and I should like to read something to noble Lords:

“Today, an ordinary person can’t pick up the phone, email a friend or order a book without comprehensive records of their activities being created, archived, and analysed by people with the authority to put you in jail or worse. I know: I sat at that desk. I typed in the names. When we know we’re being watched, we impose restraints on our behaviour—even clearly innocent activities—just as surely as if we were ordered to do so. The mass surveillance systems of today, systems that pre-emptively automate the indiscriminate seizure of”,

private records, constitute a sort of surveillance time machine”,

“—a machine that simply cannot operate without violating our liberty on the broadest scale. And it permits governments to go back and scrutinise every decision you’ve ever made, every friend you’ve ever spoken to, and derive suspicion from an innocent life. Even a well-intentioned mistake can turn a life upside down. To preserve our free societies, we have to defend not just against distant enemies, but against dangerous policies at home. If we allow scarce resources to be squandered on surveillance programmes that violate the very rights they purport to defend, we haven’t protected our liberty at all: we have paid to lose it”.

That sums this Bill up. It was written by Edward Snowden, who, as he said, sat at that desk. It was written for Liberty.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that Edward Snowden, by releasing millions of bits of classified material, has actually made all of us less safe than we were? It is a certain fact that he has done that. He is hardly someone to quote as a great and noble person.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I think that we will find in the future that this legislation will return again and again to bite us, and many of us here will regret having passed it.