Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 (Disclosure of Social Security and Revenue Information) Regulations 2012

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 (Disclosure of Social Security and Revenue Information) Regulations 2012

Relevant Document: 42nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am about to discover that I have mislaid my speech—no, I have not. These regulations are the fifth use of the data-sharing powers under the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007. The Disclosure of Social Security and Revenue Information Regulations create a gateway for the sharing of information in relation to individuals in connection with certain social security and revenue payments with the Office for National Statistics. The information that these regulations allow to be shared is held by the Department for Work and Pensions and HMRC. The ONS is the executive office of the UK Statistics Authority, which is referred to in the legislation as the Statistics Board.

Access to that information will enable the ONS to develop ongoing research as part of the Beyond 2011 programme. This programme is to consider possible alternatives to the traditional census in producing census-type statistics. With this information, the ONS will be able to investigate the feasibility of developing more accurate and cost-effective methods for producing population statistics. The ONS will report the outcome of this feasibility work to Parliament in 2014. The information will also be used to quality-assure and validate the 2011 census counts.

Data confidentiality and security arrangements are being assessed as a fundamental part of the preparation for sharing the information. The ONS already works to very tight confidentiality guidelines and has an excellent data security record. It is putting the necessary measures in place to protect the information and to ensure there is no disclosure of any personal information about individuals. The information provided will be used for statistical purposes only.

Section 39 of the Act makes it an offence for a member or an employee of the authority to disclose personal information it holds other than in tightly defined circumstances. Any unlawful disclosure could result in imprisonment and/or a fine. These regulations allow the ONS to disclose the information to the National Records of Scotland and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, but only for the purpose of assisting the UK Statistics Authority in producing population statistics.

These regulations enable administrative information already collected by the Government to be further utilised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

These regulations enable administrative information already collected by government to be further utilised, but only for the purposes as set out in the regulations—that is, for the improvement of population statistics.

In summary, allowing access to information in relation to individuals associated with certain benefits and Revenue payments will lead to developments in the production of census-type statistics under the Census 2011 programme. Ultimately, it will lead to more accurate resource allocation, policy development and service planning and delivery. Simply put, better statistics will inform better policy-making. I therefore ask the Committee to support these regulations.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that we are very grateful to the Minister for his comprehensive description of the regulations before us. Of course, as he said, the context in which these regulations are being debated goes beyond the 2011 programme established by the UK Statistics Authority, which is testing and establishing alternative models for census-type statistics. Obviously, there is a great deal of interest in that and in the programme, and I should like to come back to that in a moment. However, the Explanatory Memorandum very helpfully says that the effect of sharing social security and Revenue information will be subject to internal review after 12 months and that the legislation may be amended accordingly. Will the outcome of that internal review be made public?

I also take this opportunity to ask the Minister to explain what will happen to the 2021 Census. Can he also say whether there will be parliamentary scrutiny in the event of the Government deciding to replace the current 10-year Census? Will it be subject to a legislative order or primary legislation or to a debate? It would be helpful if he could clarify that for me.

My understanding is that the UK has carried out a Census every decade since 1801, with the exception of the 1941 Census during World War II. It is of course the only time that everybody in the country is counted and the information is used by the Government to determine spending priorities and to track population movements. In addition, academics, charities and religious organisations all use information gathered in the Census, because it asks wide-ranging questions in relation to people’s households, nationality, faith and marital status. The information is also of great interest to many members of the public. The online publication of the 1911 Census, for instance, was a very great success and hugely popular. I understand that 3 million people accessed the data within a few months of its being established.

I would just like to ask the noble Lord to comment on the remarks of Geoffrey Robertson QC, a constitutional barrister, who said the news was regrettable since some sort of count had been carried out by the monarchical government for almost 1,000 years. He said that future historians will be less able to interpret Britain in the Cameron-Clegg era as a result of this decision. He actually went on to say that perhaps that is the reason for this, but I do not accuse the noble Lord of that. I would also refer him to the remarks of David Green, the director of the Civitas think tank, who said the decision was a terrible mistake. It is a question of whether alternatives are reliable. The Census is expensive but he thinks it is worth the money for historic continuity.

I realise that this widens the debate a little, but as this order actually sets the conditions under which the authority can test alternatives to the normal Census, it would be good to get an early indication of the Government’s thinking. I am particularly interested in the opportunities for future parliamentary scrutiny if the Government go down the route of cancelling the 2021 Census and using the powers given in this order to adopt a rather different approach.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for those comments and can tell him that the Beyond 2011 programme regularly reports to Ministers and these reports will be published on the ONS website, so they will reported in a form that will be easily accessible to noble Lords and others who are interested. The most important question which he posed is what will happen to the 2021 Census. My clear understanding is that the decision will not be taken until 2014 or later, and the purpose of these data exchanges and this data-sharing is to discover, first, how accurate the 2011 Census has been and, secondly, whether there are alternatives to continuing to conduct a Census of this sort.

There are costs, benefits, advantages and disadvantages to maintaining the traditional Census. As I understand it, the first Census was conducted in 1841. I say this from my historical knowledge since I can trace my family back to 1801, precisely because one of my ancestors was 40 in 1841 so one could get him back to where he had been born.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, rather like the sixties, does the noble Lord’s memory go back that far?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I hope so. It is possible that censuses have gone back further. I have at the back of my mind something that says a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. That, of course, was a census of some sort which I think was just before they managed to conquer this country, so “all the world” was a bit of an exaggeration.

The problem of the future of the Census is this: the Census of 1911 and earlier ones are tremendously interesting in their historical information for all of us. I have certainly looked at the 1911 Census and in our hall in Saltaire we have lists of everyone who lived in the house every 10 years from when the house was built to 1911. Yet how much money should one spend to provide historical information to the next generation but one? That is one question with which the Government have to be concerned.

We are somewhat impressed that Census information has got less accurate as family circumstances have become much more complicated. Children live in two houses because their parents are separated and people move around much more rapidly. With a much more mobile society in which young people, particularly young males, do not register with doctors or fill in forms, there are substantial problems in counting population. As we all know, for Government and particularly for local authorities, accurate assessment of how many people are living in your area is of considerable importance, so the purpose of this entire ONS programme is to see whether there are better alternatives to provide efficient and differentiated population statistics. It brings together a range of information now available to different government departments under very strict conditions.

In the discussions that I have had with officials on this, I said that it is quite clear that we will need a Green Paper for 2014 to allow Parliament and the public to discuss the costs and benefits of retaining the traditional Census or of otherwise moving towards a different rolling programme. After all, the data revolution is making life astonishingly different from what it was. There are enormous advantages in the amount of data that can now be collected about us. However, we are all conscious that there are enormous dangers in allowing the state to collect too much information, and that is why this statutory instrument and the others in the programme are wrapped around with so many conditions.

I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurances to enable the Committee to accept the statutory instrument.

Motion agreed.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, 41 speakers signed up for the debate. In spite of the wealth of expertise and experience, and the diversity of opinions, may I suggest that if all contributions other than the opening and closing speeches are kept to a maximum of nine minutes, the House may rise at its normal Thursday time of before 7 pm?

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I hasten to say that I am not suggesting that we can have no discussions and no amendments—that would be too optimistic. However, we have only two and a half hours and I hope that we will deal with the amendments expeditiously.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, it might be helpful if I say that, in view of the speed with which the Bill has been changing, with parts going in and out, the Government do not have a formal position on where we now are. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that I am not aware of any discussions on the financial implications of leave of absence. However, the Government will look at what emerges from the Report stage today. I am conscious that a number of noble Lords have trains to take, in not the easiest of weather, to other parts of the United Kingdom later today, so we are determined to finish by three o’clock. The Government will take note of what the House decides and see what further progress can be made. If there is a general feeling that common sense is breaking out in this modest step on House of Lords reform, let us hope that common sense breaks out on all Benches in the House in the future.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I have a few second-order issues to raise during the discussions on the sections which will remain part of the Bill. I do not expect that the Report stage will need to be delayed beyond today.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Friday 10th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, I make the same request to the noble Lord, Lord True. Amendment 280, which was moved but later withdrawn by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, proposes that there should be a right of appeal in case something is not quite right. We must always take the charitable view that if someone cannot pay back what they owe, there may be a reason for that other than intent. We ought to allow room for exceptions in certain circumstances.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I take up the cue provided by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—I think we are within sight of a relatively limited Act that would command consensus all round the House. However, this proposed new clause would take us beyond the possibility of consensus at present. I think it would be appropriate if the noble Lord, Lord True, would withdraw the amendment. Certainly, I think that a number of us may wish to look at this particularly complex additional matter, but it is important to make some limited progress. I see that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, nods his head. That may be the best way forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I echo the words of my noble friend and the Minister. To get consensus on a short Bill that has a chance of going through the other place, we should focus on matters on which there is clear agreement. However, as the Minister was tempted to speak at this point, I will pursue the point that my noble friend has made. In light of the consensus that is likely to be reached today, will the Government find time for the Bill to be discussed in the other place this Session? If he is able to confirm that, it would be much appreciated.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, having been in government himself, I am sure that the noble Lord on the opposite Bench will understand that it takes a little time to get consensus in the Government. I can promise that consultations will continue within the Government but I cannot take matters further than that for reasons he will well understand.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I understand why the Government will take a little time to find consensus. However, I remind him that the Government have made an announcement. The Deputy Prime Minister made yet another of his speeches on the House of Lords. He said that the Government were minded finally to come round to the view that action should be taken in relation to Members of your Lordships' House who find themselves sentenced to imprisonment. Here is a vehicle to allow that to happen. I know that the Deputy Prime Minister does not think much of this place, but it is actually offering him an early vehicle with which to put his policy into action. Surely he ought to take it with open arms.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I hear very clearly what the noble Lord says. He understands the restrictions under which I must operate. We will take this back and of course consult. This is part of a process that is already under way, as all noble Lords here understand, and that some of us hope will go rather further. This Government are a formal coalition—rather different in shape from the informal and sometimes bad-tempered coalition of our predecessor Government, but we must therefore necessarily discuss this.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Perhaps I may add that I discussed this matter with the Deputy Prime Minister some time ago, and the last time we did so he agreed to look at it again in the new year. Once the Bill has had its Report and Third Reading, we will know exactly what is in it and what is not, and I will propose a further discussion with him. I am well aware of the difficulty of former party leaders telling current party leaders what to do, but I will do my best.

Gaza

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have extraordinarily tight timing for the dinner-hour debate. I remind noble Lords that when the figure “2” appears on the clock, that is the end of their time for a two-minute speech. I am told that the European Parliament has entire debates where everyone makes two-minute interventions, but I am sure the House of Lords can do better than that.

Public Services (Social Value) Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Friday 27th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am delighted to speak on behalf of the Government to support this small but significant Bill. We support it because it contributes to the ambitions of the coalition Government—which, after all, are not fundamentally different from those of our predecessor Government—to reform public services by ensuring that they achieve optimum value and promote economic growth, as well as strengthen relationships with communities.

The Bill requires relevant authorities to consider how to improve the social, environmental and economic impact of public service contracts at the pre-procurement stage. As noble Lords have noted, it requires commissioners to consider consulting on public services, thereby empowering communities to play a more active role in shaping them. It ensures that commissioners consider the full impact of services on the people they serve, and it will enable them to maximise the social, environmental and economic impact of public money. It does not change procurement law but sits within the existing procurement process. It does not undermine the requirement to award the contract to the most economically advantageous tender, nor is it at odds with the Government's value-for-money agenda and efficiency reforms, and by considering the full impact of a service it reinforces obtaining value for money in procurement and should help to improve the quality and efficiency of public services.

Several noble Lords noted that we are really talking about a long-term culture change and that we still face considerable obstacles in changing that culture. As I sit in the House listening to noble Lords talking about their commitment to localism but insisting that ring-fencing should be maintained on one subject or another—that the Secretary of State should retain full responsibility for the provision of public services and that Whitehall should intervene—I am conscious that we have not ourselves entirely gone through that culture change. As the noble Lord, Lord Wei, remarked, the Bill provides a nudge in that direction. Perhaps we need to recognise that some of us still need to be nudged. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, remarked that regulation and form-filling still stifle innovation in this area. Centralisation is part of that, as we all know. All noble Lords will be familiar with Unshackling Good Neighbours, the report last year of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, which attempted to tackle that in a number of ways, but we all recognise that we need a major culture change in this area.

After all, many of the public services with which government in any shape is concerned can succeed only if they are embedded in the local community. Bringing vulnerable people back within the links of a strong community is a necessary part of effective delivery. In probation and rehabilitation, for example, one group I have been involved with recently in Yorkshire is Together Women, with which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, may well be familiar. It is concerned with preventing young women being caught up in reoffending. It can and does save the public purse an enormous amount of money. It demonstrates that keeping people from being caught up in the prison process again is proving to be a considerable saving. That has not been easy to demonstrate. Indeed, I have been lobbying on their behalf to make sure that the Government fully understand the extent to which these unavoidably local bodies—they have to work with local people—provide help.

Mental health support and recovery, as a number of others have mentioned, is a similar activity. I was at the Bradford mental health re-employment awards lunch last Friday. The noble Baroness will be familiar with the Cellar project and a number of the other bodies that are working in that area. There are social enterprises raising money from their activities to fund what they do in partnership with local authorities. Similarly, many groups are already operating in care for the elderly. One needs to ensure when the government outsources activities that the vulnerable people are involved in their local communities. One of the examples pointed out to me is that if meals on wheels are provided by the elderly being brought into a local community centre to be fed, they can mix with each other, it is much easier to work with them and they are back to being involved in the community. That can contribute considerably to their continuing health. There is therefore the integration of service provision at the local level.

Close co-operation among different service providers on the ground can also improve effectiveness. My noble friend Lady Scott and I were extremely happy to be shown round the Bromley by Bow Centre by the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, last week in which the health and housing advice centres have a common counter. People who go to talk about particular health concerns may often be concerned about bad housing, which can be dealt with at the same time. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, also underlined the advantage of linking up across the different deliveries of local public services. I know very well from some of the issues that we have in Saltaire, which is not a problem village, that sometimes you have to deal with one bit of bureaucracy that says that something cannot be done and another bit of bureaucracy that says it has to be done. One has to lobby hard against that.

The Bill is a first step. It is part of a long-term process in an attempt to change the way in which government manages public services and co-operates with the not-for-profit or not-for-dividend sector. Where might we move on from here? The Government are now concerned with simplifying the procurement landscape and building the capability of commissioners and those concerned with procurement. We are considering ways in which larger contracts can be broken up into smaller lots where appropriate, and we are also planning a commissioning and procurement academy as a way of equipping commissioners and procurement authorities with the right skills and raising capacity. We are also hoping—this point was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott—to accelerate the measurement of impact. There are a number of ways in which we are concerned to improve the way in which to measure and collect data. We need to increase access to measurement tools and systems and the data that people need.

The legislation does not explicitly favour the involvement of social enterprises or any other particular form of provider in public service delivery. However, its focus on maximising social, environmental and economic value will inevitably ensure that the full contribution of organisations with a social or environmental purpose is recognised. Social enterprises are the prime example of such organisations. The current pressure on all parts of government to make spending cuts is particularly important to ensure that the full value of organisations is recognised. Consultation may clarify social and environmental aspects of the service, which will then be reflected in the specification. Effective consultation can also lead to fewer bureaucratic procurement processes—which is much to be hoped for—and a greater range of suppliers responding, which in turn will drive value for money.

On behalf of the Government, I welcome the Bill. I know that the House agrees that it is a useful and important step in the long-term process of transforming procurement in the public sector and enhancing our work to build what the coalition Government call the big society, what Liberal Democrats call the responsible society and what others call community engagement, active citizenship or local self-government. Whatever we call it, I hope that all parties share the same objective, and I hope that the Bill will help to push us further in that direction.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke in the debate. I am extremely pleased to get such support from all sides of the House. The debate demonstrated the degree of experience and expertise on the subject in your Lordships' House, and a deep, common-sense approach to difficult issues. Rather than looking at principles, we look at how things work on the ground. There is widespread acceptance that the Bill will not transform the world, but will play a part in doing so. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, it is a step on the journey. As the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said, it is a long-term process. As the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, among others, said, we are trying to effect a culture change, which one piece of legislation can only partially do.

It is one of the attractions of your Lordships' House that one normally leaves a debate with one or two new ideas or phrases ringing in one's mind. I will take away two from today. The first is the idea of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, that we are talking not about not-for-profit enterprises but about not-for-dividend ones. We want social enterprises, and they have to be profitable. If they are not, they are not enterprises and they will not be around for very long. The phrase “not for dividend” is not used often enough to segregate this sector from the rest of the entrepreneurial environment. My quotation of the day is from the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, who asked us all to become the Brunels of this generation. I had never thought of myself or my colleagues in those terms, but it is a comparison to which we should all now aspire. With that, I request that the House give the Bill a Second Reading.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That the draft order laid before the House on 5 December 2011 be approved.

Relevant document: 36th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 17 January.

Motion agreed.

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012

Relevant documents: 36th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the framework agreement itself was negotiated in parallel with the EU-Republic of Korea free trade agreement, debated in this Room yesterday, which was signed on 6 October 2010. The agreement provides a structure aimed at strengthening the co-operation of the European Union and its member states with the Republic of Korea in a number of fields. These fields include justice, freedom and security, as well as good governance and taxation. The agreement will also allow for further engagement on global issues such as climate change, security of energy supply and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

The agreement gives us another tool through which to discuss and work on important issues with a key ally in the east Asia region. The Republic of Korea is the fourth largest economy in Asia, and growing fast; it will be the 10th largest driver of world growth over the next five years. The Republic of Korea is also an important international player, with troops in Afghanistan and ships in the Indian Ocean off Africa tackling piracy. It is also a fellow leader on green issues. Its partner of choice has so far been the United States, but we hope that the framework agreement will give the EU an opportunity to increase engagement in many of these fields and will therefore contribute to the better implementation of UK objectives in relation to the Republic of Korea. The EU delegation in Seoul is currently in negotiations with the Republic of Korea on what areas of co-operation to prioritise and how best to take this forward.

Her Majesty's Government fully support this agreement. We firmly believe that it will help to enhance and strengthen the relationship between the EU and the Republic of Korea. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the background to this order ready for affirmative resolution and following yesterday’s proceedings on the trade agreement with the Republic of Korea. That, too, is a very important document, with its contents at an early stage; it remains to be seen how that will work out in the build-up of trade between ourselves and the Republic of Korea. This instrument is one of the accompaniments that the EU and its allies and other countries with which we are doing deals like this rightly require. The international practice now is to have agreements along these lines: a framework agreement alongside a trade agreement dealing with all the other matters that the Minister has listed, which are extremely important from the point of view of good governance and civil society being properly looked after in the countries that are parties to this agreement. In this case, that means the member states of the EU and the Republic of Korea. Obviously, right now there is bound to be a certain amount of tension, at least in the margin, because of events in North Korea and the relationship and heightened tension between the Republic of Korea and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. One hopes that will not have any deleterious effect on the trade agreement that we discussed yesterday or on this agreement.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who is a great expert on Korea. He is particularly knowledgeable about South Korea—and, indeed, North Korea—and I would presumptuously guess that he may want to say a number of things about these matters. I will listen with great interest, but with some trepidation. I apologise in advance in case we find our proceedings go on a bit because I am due at a Select Committee where a Minister is attending at 4.10 pm. Therefore, if I depart prematurely, which I would certainly not wish to do because it would be very discourteous on my part, I can none the less rely on my noble friend Lady Maddock to keep me abreast of the developments in the rest of the discussion, and I shall look very closely at Hansard.

On behalf of the other part of the coalition today and in support of the Minister, I express support for this agreement.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I express the Opposition’s support for the approval of this statutory instrument. One of the real privileges of becoming a Member of the House of Lords, which I did last year, is to listen to people such as the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, who have expertise, wisdom and judgment to offer on things that one knows very little about. I hope that the points that he has raised today, although they are tangential to the thrust of the EU framework agreement, will be taken very seriously and that we will have further opportunities to debate the position in North Korea, about which he spoke so movingly. I thank him on behalf of the Opposition for his work there.

The agreement itself is what they call in EU jargon a strategic partnership, and it is one that is directly linked to the conclusion of the free trade agreement in 2010 between the EU and the Republic of Korea, which I think Europe took about a year to ratify from when it was actually signed. That was not bad when one looks at the position in relation to the United States and its free trade agreements with Korea, which are deeply enmeshed in the problems in the US Congress. Perhaps many people in Britain forget that the EU can be effective and that it still is an important pole of attraction for a very rapidly growing country like the Republic of Korea. The deal on the free trade agreement with the accompanying strategic partnership was negotiated in two years. It arose out of the global initiative that my noble friend Lord Mandelson launched when he was trade commissioner which, given the difficulties of completing the Doha round, was a switch away to bilateral trading agreements with our major trading partners.

The Republic of Korea is extremely significant for us in economic terms. It is the most important trading partner for Europe behind the United States, Japan and China. I discovered that fact when I was Googling away before the debate, but it is a remarkable fact none the less. We on this side welcome the deepening of relations with the Republic of Korea. We think it is right that a trade agreement should have a parallel political agreement, as it were, which sets out a broad range of areas for co-operation and dialogue and we very much wish that co-operation and dialogue to be effective. I am sure that this agreement will play an important role in deepening relationships between Europe and the Republic of Korea, which I hope will assist in a solution being found to the terrible problems that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, described in North Korea. I support the approval of this statutory instrument.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I happily yield to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, as an expert in EU jargon. It is a very erudite subject with which we have both struggled for many years. I feel I am slightly in the same position as I was in last night, when being asked to defend Britain's approach to the OSCE, to which the answer is: we are not entirely sure how this works or what its potential is, but we think it is worth doing. The framework agreements are a new element in EU relations with other countries beyond the European region. They have very wide potential, including on human rights, and provide a formal structure for member states collectively to raise such issues.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his, as always, fascinating and well-informed speech. While nothing in this framework agreement specifically refers to North Korea, relations with North Korea are of course always likely to be an important part of the agenda when we discuss political and human rights issues with our Korean colleagues. All those of us who have been to Seoul know that when you are in Seoul you feel close to the border. The sense of insecurity is not that much less than it used to be when one visited Berlin during the Cold War, so one cannot get away from the North Korean dimension in this relationship. The absence of specific reference to North Korea or to human rights in the framework agreement does not imply that these are outside its structure.

The noble Lord asked a number of specific questions, including one about information on the news of a potential North Korean amnesty for political prisoners. I will inquire further within the Foreign Office and report back. Although I am fully briefed on what is happening in southern Sudan, Kenya, Somalia and Iran, as one jumps from one country to another I have unfortunately not kept up with exactly what is happening in North Korea.

There are problems in developing among the EU 27 a common position on North Korea. Smaller EU member states see North Korea as a distant country, even further away from Europe than Burma. We are therefore talking about the larger EU member states attempting to reconcile their positions, which fits in with their relations with China and their position on nuclear proliferation. Finding common EU positions on distant problems with which not all the smaller member states are directly concerned is not always easy.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

Can the Minister tell us about the position of France? As I recall, France does not even have diplomatic relations with North Korea and since it is not one of the smaller member states, getting a common position would be a pretty good start.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will ensure that I give the noble Lord a more expert reply on the French position than I could off the cuff. As he remarked, the British took a very balanced decision to reopen relations with North Korea. The Americans and the French did not support it at the time. I think that most of us here think that it was worth doing, in spite of the intense difficulties which our representatives have often had in North Korea since then. We therefore have an advantage over some of our EU colleagues in having a more direct understanding of what is going on in the country.

I will also need to come back to the noble Lord on questions of energy supply. I thank him for the information on the proposals for a direct pipeline and I appreciate its implications. Similarly, in the case of the industrial zone, I am tempted to say that the import into Britain of goods which are partly put together in extremely poorly paid factories and then assembled in higher wage countries is, as we all know, not unique to relations between South Korea and North Korea.

On education, I have heard some fascinating stuff before from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the university of which he spoke. We are doing our best to provide some support there. It is a very interesting experiment and is one of the things which suggest that chinks of light are possibly opening up. At this precise moment, with a change in leadership in North Korea, it is difficult for any of us to read exactly how the situation is going to develop. We have to follow what is happening, to intervene when we think that we can make a difference—as we are beginning to do on the educational front—and to see how much more we can manage. The Government share his concerns about the possibility of a local incident moving up the escalation ladder into accidental war. We are all concerned about that, and not only between North Korea and the Republic of Korea. Although not within this framework agreement, it is absolutely part of the multilateral diplomatic process on North Korea—which includes the Chinese, the Americans and others—to try to build those contacts and confidence-building measures which will prevent such an escalation happening.

The comparisons with Burma are not exact. North Korea has remained much more closed than Burma, even through the worst points of the Burmese military Government. We can hope for similar shifts with North Korea but it will take longer and it is much more difficult, precisely because North Korea has been so much more cut off from the world. This framework agreement offers us the prospect to widen the relationship with Korea. We will be pursuing this through a whole range of activities.

Perhaps I may be allowed on a personal note to remark that some noble Lords may not be aware that the Korean parliamentary choir will be coming to sing with the British parliamentary choir and has invited the British parliamentary choir to go out and sing in Seoul in exchange. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on the language point. We are singing Mendelssohn with them and the Korean parliamentary choir has insisted that we sing it in the original German and not in English. I am glad to hear that it is particularly correct in this way.

I conclude by reassuring noble Lords that the Government believe our European partners and Europe institutionally have a role to play in strengthening co-operation between Britain and the Republic of Korea. This agreement will allow for more work to be done in expanding a long-term relationship on a number of very important issues such as the promotion of human rights, international peace and security, energy and climate change, on which the Koreans are particularly active, and global economic co-operation.

Motion agreed.

Electoral Register

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the recent Electoral Commission report on the accuracy of the electoral register.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have funded research by the Electoral Commission to discover how deep the problems with the existing system are. It shows that the register has become significantly less complete during the past 10 years. The register is around 85 per cent accurate and, as of December 2010, was 85 to 87 per cent complete, with around 6 million electors missing from the register compared to an estimated 3.5 million in 2000. The data show that the current system is not as good as many people thought it was. These findings show that now, more than ever, it is important that we take steps to improve registration rates as part of the move to individual registration. This includes looking at how we can most effectively reach those groups most likely to be missing from the register.

[Lord Rennard]

Does the Minister agree that we need talks between all the parties, the Electoral Commission and others so that we have confidence that we are handling the transition to individual voter registration in such a way as to ensure that many more people are not missing from the voter register in future? Given the consensus shown in this House in last Thursday’s debate, does he agree that the sanctions which currently apply to households and make most of them conform with the process should continue to apply to individuals?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, my noble friend asks several questions. We value the independence of the Electoral Commission as an umpire for this system. We recognise that the integrity of the system depends on the trust and confidence of all parties involved. We noted the calls from around the House, including from the noble Lord, Lord Wills, last Thursday, for a new all-party group to ensure that confidence is maintained. I have fed that in to fellow Ministers.

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, I welcome the response from the Minister on cross-party talks and very much endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said. Does he agree with the assessment of the Electoral Commission that the approach being taken by the Government towards implementing individual registration risks even more millions of eligible voters falling off the register?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Electoral Commission’s estimate that there might be as many as 10 million electors missing was very much a worst-case analysis. We are proceeding from that basis and have to ensure that we achieve a much better result than that. As the noble Lord will know, experiments with data-matching have been achieved. We are considering how one might “nudge” people as they visit the benefit office or apply for a driving licence, and in various other ways, to think about their civic duty to register.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned various ways of ensuring that people stay on the electoral register. One of the groups missing comprises those in private rented accommodation. Will my noble friend the Minister take forward the specific suggestion I made in last Thursday’s debate: that we ask the Post Office to include on the application form for redirecting mail a question about whether customers want to go on to the electoral register at their new address?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we took that on board and it is one of the many matters being considered. I stress that the people who fall off the register most rapidly are those who move. They are closely associated with people who are young, unmarried, students, and often those in private rented accommodation. That is the area on which all these efforts have to focus.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, did my noble friend note that in the debate on Thursday there was unanimous support from all sides of the House for the obligation to register and for a penalty if you do not do so? That strong view was also held by the Electoral Commission, which believes that if the signal is given that registration is no longer an obligation, without a proper penalty, there will be a disastrous fall-off from the register which is already woefully inadequate, as the Minister has already indicated.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I was well aware of the sentiments expressed on Thursday. The Government are looking at whether the current offence of failing to return the form from the household should be extended to making it an offence for an individual not to register. We would prefer not to extend the offence, but that is a matter for consideration and no doubt for debate in both Houses.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the Minister accept that if any objective observer looked at our system of election registration in the way which we have the pretension of looking at the electoral systems of many other countries, we would find it very difficult to persuade them that the basis of a democratic election, the electoral register, constituted a free and fair election? Would the Minister consider consulting the international body, the Venice Commission, to see how it, on our collective behalf, advises newly emerging democracies to conduct elections using electoral registers that are much more significant than our own?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Electoral Commission has conducted a number of studies of international comparisons. I would merely point out that the OSC electoral monitors have criticised Britain for retaining household registration, and thus very strongly supports the move—as do all parties—from household to individual electoral registration.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, will the Minister look at the situation in Australia, where there is compulsory voting and the register is highly accurate?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am not sure how highly accurate the Australia system is. People move in Australia, too, particularly in cities, and young people tend to avoid these things. I am not sure that there would be sentiment for compulsory voting as a basis in Britain, but perhaps we will test that as we take the Bill through the House.

[Lord Empey]

Is the Minister aware that a significant number of women living alone find themselves at risk by going on to the register? They can be targeted in certain circumstances by thieves and robbers. Could there not be a case for having a register where certain people have the ability not to have their address on the published register, but on one that is available to electoral officers in a polling station?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I was not aware of that point and will take it on board.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister tell me what progress the Government are making on ensuring that the owners of second homes do not register electorally at those properties?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I suspect that a great many Members of this House are registered in more than one property. I certainly am since we have lived both in Yorkshire and in London for a very long time. The questions of what is a second home and what is a holiday home very delicate. I am conscious that in south-west England this is a particularly sensitive issue.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, why are the Government so keen on removing the offence?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, perhaps I may be precise and make it clear that the Government are not removing the offence. The offence is the failure to return the form for the system of household registration. If we were to make it an offence not to register on an individual basis, that would be extending the offence. We will return to this when the Bill is being considered in both Houses.

Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, if the world were straightforward, and all states were democratic, I am sure that we could have a number of effective, well organised and well respected international organisations.

In thanking the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, for initiating this debate, I should say that I was reminded how far back we all go. Some of us will remember the Helsinki Declaration and the Final Act of 1975, and the extent to which that set of criteria—particularly the human rights dimension—was part of the way in which democratic states gained leverage over socialist states. Dissidents within those states felt empowered because they were able to quote at their rulers the standards which they had signed up to. I remember in particular some extremely brave former dissidents in Prague, whom I got to know in the early 1990s, who told me how they used to quote these things at length at the secret policemen who were inspecting and searching their apartments when they were holding meetings there. I also remember, as a former think-tanker and, at one point, the secretary of the British-Soviet Round Table, the extent to which the fact that the Soviet elite wanted to be thought of as civilised Europeans gave us some degree of leverage over their behaviour.

After that, when the CSCE became the OSCE in the early 1990s, there was a brief period of tremendous optimism that it would become a core organisation for a post-socialist Europe. Those hopes were disappointed, but nevertheless I would argue, and Her Majesty’s Government would argue, that it remains a useful organisation—even though it so often operates in the margins of international relations—with the constructive ambiguity of providing modest leverage to improve the behaviour of states which are perhaps less democratic and less concerned about the rule of law than many of us would like.

I should declare an interest. I spent some time working with my former employer, the London School of Economics, in a series of training courses for Kazakh officials before they took over the OSCE chairmanship. It was a useful exercise, partly because we saw a large number of Kazakh officials who were interested in the role of the OSCE and how it affected Kazakhstan’s role in the world. Therefore, this is all part of a process at the margins, in which we begin to inform each other about our different domestic standards.

However, the nature of the organisation, which, as noble Lords have remarked, is based on consensus, is that all progress is slow and major change is rare and hard earned. I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Patten, that, if there are good arguments for remaining an inclusive organisation, which I would suggest there are, then pulling states such as Russia along with us—let alone Ukraine, Belarus or Uzbekistan—takes a great deal of effort. One sometimes feels one is not achieving very much, but it is the nature of diplomacy that persistence is required to achieve slow progress on this range of issues. One often feels that very little progress is being made—as indeed it did feel in the mid-1980s—but eventually one makes real progress.

Noble Lords have mentioned that there are three dimensions. There is the security dimension, on which a Written Ministerial Statement was laid in both Houses on 25 November 2011, advising of the British decision to take legal and proportionate countermeasures against Russia in response to Russia’s suspension, in 2007, of participation in the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe verification arrangements. On the second dimension, which is the economic and environmental dimension, most of the work is quiet and expert, and a matter of missions coming and going, but, as noble Lords have suggested, it is nevertheless useful work. Much of our debate so far has been about the third dimension, the human dimension in all its complexity, including in particular the work of ODIHR in inspecting elections.

I am informed that the OSCE is much better known among the public and Parliaments of those member states east of Vienna. It is not as well known in Britain, partly because we need the OSCE less. I inquired about this and am happy to remind noble Lords that there was indeed an OSCE mission to observe the British general election. That is quite right; there had to be. There was an OSCE mission to observe the previous US presidential election, which I understand did not manage to agree the quality of its report. The OSCE mission to oversee the Duma elections will be repeated to oversee the Russian presidential elections. I imagine that a number of us will look forward avidly to that report when it comes.

Some noble Lords asked for much greater efficiency and effectiveness in the organisation. Of course, we would all like that. However, when one is moving with a number of very reluctant member states—I have spent a lot of time since 1989, as well as before, arguing with senior Russian officials—one can only move slowly. One also needs to be careful to preserve the autonomy of the secretariat. The United Nations itself is not a perfect or efficient—or often effective—organisation. Nevertheless, it is a useful organisation. We all recognise the limits within which we have to operate.

The noble Lord, Lord Bowness, asked a range of questions, which I will try to follow. On his question about whether the OSCE has joint EU operations within it, I am informed that it was one of the first bodies to which the EU applied joint action post-Maastricht. The United Kingdom supports that. However, nearly half the membership is now drawn from the membership of the EU, and one has to say that on a number of sensitive issues there is not entire consensus within the EU. The relations that some EU members have with Russia, for example, are very different from those that the UK would wish to have. The amount of pressure that is put on Russia in view of its role in some of the frozen conflicts with which the OSCE is dealing varies from EU member state to member state, so what we are able to agree in the EU context about OSCE policy is not always as coherent as the United Kingdom would wish.

Therefore, we have a mixed record on frozen conflicts. The Minsk Group, the group that deals with Georgia and the various consultations that deal with the Moldova-Transnistria conflicts have not made as much progress as we would have wished. Progress in the Balkans has been rather better. I remind noble Lords that the largest of all the OSCE field missions is the mission in Kosovo, which continues to work. Progress in the Balkans has been a great deal more encouraging.

The noble Lord, Lord Bowness, asked how far we are prepared to go in funding secondees. We currently fund three civilians in OSCE field presences but have no further plans at the moment to finance additional secondees. The 2010 report suggested that we were funding some 48 national secondees. I can confirm that, as of the beginning of last year, we were indeed funding 48 UK national secondees and contracted staff, of whom three are funded by the UK Government through the FCO budget and the others through the common budget.

The question of how much the Government should report to the two Houses on the OSCE is one that we take on board. Perhaps there should be more Statements to Parliament. That is something that we will take back and consider. With hindsight, we recognise that noble Lords might have welcomed a Written Ministerial Statement about the Astana summit in December 2010, where the British delegation was led by the Deputy Prime Minister, and the Vilnius Ministerial Council in December 2011.

Perhaps there is an argument for greater visibility but much of the useful work of the OSCE is done partly because an enormous amount of political capital is not made out of it. We regret that there is on occasion a degree of rivalry between the Parliamentary Assembly and the OSCE’s secretariat as such and we would very much like to see the Parliamentary Assembly and the OSCE secretariat working more closely together. We encourage members of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly to bring what they have learnt back into the British debate. I recall that on one occasion the noble Lord, Lord Judd, did his work on Chechnya through the Council of Europe Assembly and brought that back very actively into the British Parliament.

I think that the OSCE operates from four centres, not only from three. I think that there is also an office in The Hague. I will check that and will write to the noble Lord, but that is one of the necessary ways in which international organisations have to operate. The EU, after all, has offices scattered through the majority of member countries. However, I agree strongly with the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, that only the OSCE could have provided the quality of report that it did on the Duma elections. This is not in any sense a perfect organisation but it provides useful work. It works by consensus, which is both its strength but also its weakness as it means that decision-making is ponderous when each participating state has an effective veto on most substantive action.

This Government believe that if the organisation did not exist there would be a significant gap in the family of international organisations, particularly in respect of wider European security issues. We will therefore support fully our Irish colleagues throughout this year in their chairmanship in office in our own right and, as appropriate, in concert with a large number of like-minded partners which we have within the organisation. The nature of the OSCE all but excludes earth-shattering new developments and agreements. Nevertheless, it plays a valuable role in European security in promoting the values which we and many of our partners share.