Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke to the amendments. I also thank the Government for allowing the Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending to reply to this group. That is very much welcomed by the Committee. I think it was the noble Lord’s father who once said, “Kindness is good for business”. In this case, he might find that kindness is good for his noble friend the Minister. Given how hard she has been working on the Bill, I think she deserves some respite, so I am sure that that is very welcome.

So far, we have debated the importance of limiting detentions for those with autism or learning disabilities without co-occurring mental disorders. We have also debated the community treatment orders. But until now, we have not covered the provisions of the Bill relating to this new statutory 28-day time-limited period for transfers from prisons to hospitals. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has said, he has been very patient. Therefore, the Government enshrining this target in law is welcome. Unfortunately, progress towards the goal of 28 days, as set out in the 2021 guidance and the White Paper, has been slower than anticipated.

His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons, in its 2024 report The Long Wait—I am sure the noble Lord is aware of this—said that

“people linger in prison for weeks, often months and even, in the worst cases, for more than a year waiting for their transfer to be completed”.

Unfortunately, even though the 28-day guidance was there from 2022-23, only 15% of patients in that period were transferred to hospital within that timeframe. Sadly, the average wait was 85 days, and one prisoner was identified as waiting 462 days for transfer to hospital.

These Benches welcome the 28-day limit being put on a statutory footing, but, as other noble Lords have said—not only on this group of amendments but on others—once again, there is an issue of implementation here. Just because it is in legislation does not mean it will deliver the improvements that are necessary.

The noble Lord’s colleague—the noble Baroness, Lady Merron—has been very candid with noble Lords, saying that not everything in the Bill will be delivered now, and that there is a 10-year timetable for implementation. Given that, will the Minister say, at this stage, whether the 28-day limit is an aspiration or something that could be delivered immediately? If, at this stage, it is an aspiration and—understandably so—awaiting future spending reviews, is he able to give an indicative timeframe? Is the hope for the next 12 months, the next five years or, perhaps, up to 10 years? That information would be very welcome to noble Lords. Many noble Lords have been asking this throughout this debate. We understand that not everything is going to be solved overnight, but it would be good if we could have as much information as possible on the Government’s intentions and aspirations, including indicative timetables, where they are possible. We also understand that not everything is going to be clearly tagged at this stage.

Another finding from the prison inspectorate’s report was that there were serious flaws with the data held on patients who were awaiting transfer. I understand that there is no publicly available data describing the access and waiting times for beds. The Minister might be able to correct me on that. Some of the data on the numbers of prisoners awaiting transfer obtained from providers had significant gaps, due to a lack of consistent and accurate reporting, and some data contained errors and unreliability. This might also impact on Amendments 97 and 98 from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, may well tire of hearing me repeat the importance of collecting accurate and complete data, but, as I and many other noble Lords have said on many occasions, we really cannot solve many of the problems we face without data that is as accurate and timely as possible. Therefore, I urge both Ministers to take up the issue of data reporting for patients awaiting transfer from prison to hospital with their respective departments.

Turning to Amendment 96C in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, which creates an accountable person who will be appointed to oversee the transfer process and ensure that the statutory 28-day limit is completed, I think this, once again, speaks to the point of implementation. This could be a sensible way of holding providers to account and working with them to address the shortcomings in patient transfers. Given the Government’s 10-year timeframe for implementation, noble Lords have raised the importance of oversight and accountability. Therefore, in the remarks from the Minister and in any subsequent letter, I hope that the Government will be able to address the issue of implementation and to give an indicative timetable. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have helped take a Bill through Committee, so I am grateful to noble Lords for bearing with me while I acquaint myself with the procedures. I appreciate the questions and suggestions from noble Lords because this is a subject that is very close to my heart, as someone who has recruited many of the people whom we are talking about, over many years. I have always thought it was very sad when colleagues whom I had recruited often had to leave because of their mental health problems and other complexities that they then found themselves in within the system.

Amendment 96, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, would remove the change to the detention criteria in Clause 34, provided for prisoners who become mentally disordered in prison and require transfer to hospital. This would mean that a physical hospital place must be identified before the detention criteria are met for transfer from prison to hospital under the Act. This differs from how “available” treatment is interpreted across the rest of the Act, and therefore risks delaying access to treatment. It would also affect the implementation of the statutory time limit in Clause 35, as the Secretary of State would not be able to issue a transfer warrant until a bed is identified, regardless of the patient’s needs.

Clause 34 aims to correct a divergence in the detention criteria, as opposed to creating one. I appreciate that the noble Baroness is seeking further clarity on how Clause 34 will operate and the intention of the wording. My officials would be happy to hold a teach-in with the noble Baroness on this. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

I turn to Amendments 96A to 96C, tabled by my noble friend Lord Bradley. We have known each other for nearly 10 years, six years after the important topic came on to his radar. Amendment 96A would place a legislative time limit on the referring body to issue a referral notice within two days of receiving a request for an initial medical report to assess whether an individual meets the criteria for transfer. The timing of the statutory referral notice being issued will not impact when the time limit begins. This starts from the day that the healthcare team requests the assessment, referred to in the Bill as “the initial request”. This amendment would therefore not benefit transfer timeliness. Additionally, placing a statutory time limit on the healthcare team in a detention setting to issue a referral notice would not be operationally viable, because not all services operate seven days a week. The current wording of “as soon as practicable” accounts for this and encourages the referral notice to be issued at the earliest point for each case.

Amendment 96B would place a duty on all relevant agencies to ensure, as opposed to “seek to ensure”, that the transfer is completed within 28 days. Due to the multiagency co-ordination required in the transfer process, there is no one body that could ensure punctual transfers. This is why we softened the duty, so that those in receipt of a referral notice must seek to ensure that the patient was transferred within 28 days. Having consulted with relevant agencies, we are confident that this is appropriate, given the complexities in the transfer process.

Amendment 96C, also mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Kamall and Lord Bradley, would introduce a “specified accountable person”, appointed by the healthcare provider for the relevant place of detention, who would be responsible for ensuring that people are transferred within the 28-day time limit in Clause 35.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Timpson and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, just like in the last group, I will speak to and support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradley. They follow the amendments in the previous group.

These Benches welcome Clause 47—another positive move—which addresses the issues arising from the current situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, said, bail can be refused solely on the basis of a mental health condition where it might otherwise have been granted.

In simple terms, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said, this amendment returns to the theme that he, and many other noble Lords, have pushed the Government on—and I like the words used by the noble Lord—to “tease out” the plan and timetable for implementation from the Government, since it requires the Secretary of State to prepare a report on how they plan to implement these changes within the time period proposed in Amendment 163C.

We have to remember that the impact assessment states, in regard to the changes to remand for a person’s own protection, that:

“Departments are working together to ensure there are clear pathways and provision in place to safely enact these reforms and the timeline for implementation will depend on the conclusion of this work”.


That has been manifested this evening with the presence of a Minister from the Department of Health and Social Care and a Minister from the Ministry of Justice. However, there is currently no set date for the commencement of Clause 46, so it is all contingent on internal departmental assessments. We all understand how government works—how long it takes for things to happen, to get write-round and to get support across government—so I gently suggest to the Minister that the 12-month implementation timeline would be a useful target for the Government to work towards. It could help them to answer some of the questions that many noble Lords have asked in Committee on the plans for, and stages of, implementation. That is not to force the Government to move faster than they want to go, but just for us to understand the various milestones along the way in developing what is in the Bill.

It would also be helpful if the Minister could set out how much progress has been made both in the Ministry of Justice and the Department of Health and Social Care on establishing the pathways and processes to enable these remand reforms to go forward. This is especially true since the impact assessment also states—this is quite an interesting point—that:

“We expect the number of people on remand solely for mental health reasons to be low and therefore health and justice costs relating to this change are likely to be negligible, and therefore have not been monetised”.


We understand the challenges that the Government are often talking about—they have to wait for spending reviews, et cetera—but the impact assessment states that the number of people affected will be low. Can the Minister say whether either his department or the Department of Health and Social Care know what that means and how many people that will be? Does he know how many will be impacted by this change? If he accepts what is in the impact assessment—that the costs will be negligible—this could be a quick win for the Government in relative terms, depending of course on what other processes he feels have to be put in place before they can deliver this. I hope that the Minister can be a bit more helpful on his noble friend’s amendments, given that the costs are low.

We look forward to the Minister’s response, and I would be grateful if he could give an indicative timeframe or an indication of when a timeframe will be in place.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradley for bringing this discussion before the Committee. These amendments would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on the implementation of Clause 47 within six months of the date on which the Bill is passed and that the reform comes into force a maximum of 12 months after the date on which the Bill is passed.

We are committed to implementing our reform to the Bail Act as soon as is practicable and as soon it is safe to do so. However, before moving to amend the legislation to embed these changes, we will need to make sure that viable alternatives are properly established and clear pathways to the right support are in place, whether in hospital or in the community. Commencing by regulations enables the flexibility to implement the reform at whatever point the necessary alternatives and pathways are safely in place.

I reassure my noble friend Lord Bradley—just as the Minister, my noble friend Lady Merron, did in relation to the previous groups of amendments—that my officials are working with colleagues across government to develop this and to ensure that sufficient resources and processes are in place. This includes the work of the north-east health and justice hub, which seeks to improve the way that courts, health services and prisons work together at a local level to smooth pathways into care, alongside the pilot team collecting data. That will help us better to understand the number of people remanded for their own protection solely on mental health grounds to inform planning.

The reform is currently due to commence by regulation, so we have the flexibility to implement it at whatever point the necessary alternatives to the pathways are in place. The rollout of the bail information service will be completed by autumn this year. This will help the courts to have the information they need to make decisions on bail for this cohort. However, we need to make sure that we have the reliable data on the number of people remanded for their own protection, because if this is rushed, it could create knock-on impacts for health services.