Mental Health Bill [HL]

Lord Timpson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke to the amendments. I also thank the Government for allowing the Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending to reply to this group. That is very much welcomed by the Committee. I think it was the noble Lord’s father who once said, “Kindness is good for business”. In this case, he might find that kindness is good for his noble friend the Minister. Given how hard she has been working on the Bill, I think she deserves some respite, so I am sure that that is very welcome.

So far, we have debated the importance of limiting detentions for those with autism or learning disabilities without co-occurring mental disorders. We have also debated the community treatment orders. But until now, we have not covered the provisions of the Bill relating to this new statutory 28-day time-limited period for transfers from prisons to hospitals. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has said, he has been very patient. Therefore, the Government enshrining this target in law is welcome. Unfortunately, progress towards the goal of 28 days, as set out in the 2021 guidance and the White Paper, has been slower than anticipated.

His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons, in its 2024 report The Long Wait—I am sure the noble Lord is aware of this—said that

“people linger in prison for weeks, often months and even, in the worst cases, for more than a year waiting for their transfer to be completed”.

Unfortunately, even though the 28-day guidance was there from 2022-23, only 15% of patients in that period were transferred to hospital within that timeframe. Sadly, the average wait was 85 days, and one prisoner was identified as waiting 462 days for transfer to hospital.

These Benches welcome the 28-day limit being put on a statutory footing, but, as other noble Lords have said—not only on this group of amendments but on others—once again, there is an issue of implementation here. Just because it is in legislation does not mean it will deliver the improvements that are necessary.

The noble Lord’s colleague—the noble Baroness, Lady Merron—has been very candid with noble Lords, saying that not everything in the Bill will be delivered now, and that there is a 10-year timetable for implementation. Given that, will the Minister say, at this stage, whether the 28-day limit is an aspiration or something that could be delivered immediately? If, at this stage, it is an aspiration and—understandably so—awaiting future spending reviews, is he able to give an indicative timeframe? Is the hope for the next 12 months, the next five years or, perhaps, up to 10 years? That information would be very welcome to noble Lords. Many noble Lords have been asking this throughout this debate. We understand that not everything is going to be solved overnight, but it would be good if we could have as much information as possible on the Government’s intentions and aspirations, including indicative timetables, where they are possible. We also understand that not everything is going to be clearly tagged at this stage.

Another finding from the prison inspectorate’s report was that there were serious flaws with the data held on patients who were awaiting transfer. I understand that there is no publicly available data describing the access and waiting times for beds. The Minister might be able to correct me on that. Some of the data on the numbers of prisoners awaiting transfer obtained from providers had significant gaps, due to a lack of consistent and accurate reporting, and some data contained errors and unreliability. This might also impact on Amendments 97 and 98 from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, may well tire of hearing me repeat the importance of collecting accurate and complete data, but, as I and many other noble Lords have said on many occasions, we really cannot solve many of the problems we face without data that is as accurate and timely as possible. Therefore, I urge both Ministers to take up the issue of data reporting for patients awaiting transfer from prison to hospital with their respective departments.

Turning to Amendment 96C in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, which creates an accountable person who will be appointed to oversee the transfer process and ensure that the statutory 28-day limit is completed, I think this, once again, speaks to the point of implementation. This could be a sensible way of holding providers to account and working with them to address the shortcomings in patient transfers. Given the Government’s 10-year timeframe for implementation, noble Lords have raised the importance of oversight and accountability. Therefore, in the remarks from the Minister and in any subsequent letter, I hope that the Government will be able to address the issue of implementation and to give an indicative timetable. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Timpson) (Lab)]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have helped take a Bill through Committee, so I am grateful to noble Lords for bearing with me while I acquaint myself with the procedures. I appreciate the questions and suggestions from noble Lords because this is a subject that is very close to my heart, as someone who has recruited many of the people whom we are talking about, over many years. I have always thought it was very sad when colleagues whom I had recruited often had to leave because of their mental health problems and other complexities that they then found themselves in within the system.

Amendment 96, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, would remove the change to the detention criteria in Clause 34, provided for prisoners who become mentally disordered in prison and require transfer to hospital. This would mean that a physical hospital place must be identified before the detention criteria are met for transfer from prison to hospital under the Act. This differs from how “available” treatment is interpreted across the rest of the Act, and therefore risks delaying access to treatment. It would also affect the implementation of the statutory time limit in Clause 35, as the Secretary of State would not be able to issue a transfer warrant until a bed is identified, regardless of the patient’s needs.

Clause 34 aims to correct a divergence in the detention criteria, as opposed to creating one. I appreciate that the noble Baroness is seeking further clarity on how Clause 34 will operate and the intention of the wording. My officials would be happy to hold a teach-in with the noble Baroness on this. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

I turn to Amendments 96A to 96C, tabled by my noble friend Lord Bradley. We have known each other for nearly 10 years, six years after the important topic came on to his radar. Amendment 96A would place a legislative time limit on the referring body to issue a referral notice within two days of receiving a request for an initial medical report to assess whether an individual meets the criteria for transfer. The timing of the statutory referral notice being issued will not impact when the time limit begins. This starts from the day that the healthcare team requests the assessment, referred to in the Bill as “the initial request”. This amendment would therefore not benefit transfer timeliness. Additionally, placing a statutory time limit on the healthcare team in a detention setting to issue a referral notice would not be operationally viable, because not all services operate seven days a week. The current wording of “as soon as practicable” accounts for this and encourages the referral notice to be issued at the earliest point for each case.

Amendment 96B would place a duty on all relevant agencies to ensure, as opposed to “seek to ensure”, that the transfer is completed within 28 days. Due to the multiagency co-ordination required in the transfer process, there is no one body that could ensure punctual transfers. This is why we softened the duty, so that those in receipt of a referral notice must seek to ensure that the patient was transferred within 28 days. Having consulted with relevant agencies, we are confident that this is appropriate, given the complexities in the transfer process.

Amendment 96C, also mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Kamall and Lord Bradley, would introduce a “specified accountable person”, appointed by the healthcare provider for the relevant place of detention, who would be responsible for ensuring that people are transferred within the 28-day time limit in Clause 35.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevens of Birmingham (CB)]

Can I just make sure I heard the Minister correctly? I think he said the that one of the reasons it would not be appropriate to do as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, suggested—that is, to set out a statutory definition—was because it would take too long to do it and would delay implementation of the 28-day standard. I think he now just said it is intended that that will come into force in 18 to 24 months, the implication being that he thinks it would take 18 to 24 months to produce a piece of statutory guidance about what constitutes an exceptional circumstance. Is that correct?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

Having been in discussions with colleagues over the past couple of weeks on this point, I tested with them the processes involved in making sure that we can make this as robust as possible. One of the issues surrounding exceptional circumstances is the need for flexibility so that some of our professionals do not unwittingly break the law in exceptional circumstances. I am happy to write to the noble Lord with further details.

[Lord Bradley (Lab)]

Before my noble friend completes his summing up, I welcome him to his first Committee session. He kindly offered to meet me to discuss the accountable person for the process of transfer. Can he assure me that that meeting will take place well before Report?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I will very happily meet as soon as possible and well before the next stage.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I appreciate that this is this Minister’s first time, but I would like to speak to his team in the department through him. I find it very difficult to understand why the Minister’s team thinks it is necessary or, indeed, appropriate to invite my noble friend Lady Murphy for a “teach-in”. Does the Minister really mean that? It seems to me utterly inappropriate, and my noble friend could not say it.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble and learned Baroness for her comments. I hope the noble Baroness accepts my apology for the way it was phrased. As this is my first Committee, I have been getting a number of messages from officials, and I was trying to work out what I said at which point. I apologise. I will very happily meet the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

At the risk of giving the Minister a rather hard time on his first outing in Committee, on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about people saying that it will not happen, is he not fearful, as I am, that, given the way life is, if we do not rid ourselves of words such as “as soon as practicable” and “seek to”, as suggested in Amendments 96A and 96B, in practice it really will not happen?

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for the question. One of the questions that I have been asking colleagues is on exactly this point around whether this will happen. I have been reassured by asking policy colleagues many probing questions that the points in the Bill make it as tight as possible without conflicting professionals in the way they are going about their role.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I welcome the Minister to his first Committee. Clearly, a lot of work has been done on this to work out within 18 months what is required. Will the Minister let the Committee know what the gap is between existing provision and what would be required in terms of beds and staffing for this 28-day provision to come into force? That is an important piece of information that the Committee needs to understand to see whether it is just an aspiration or there are the resources needed to make it real.

[Lord Timpson (Lab)]

I will ask officials to get me that information and to pass it on.