Intergovernmental Relations Within the United Kingdom

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

Thursday 18th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I too thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and congratulate him on obtaining this debate. I also thank him for his excellent analysis of what has happened over the last 10 years. I would like to follow that up with a more rough-and-tumble view of my experience over the last six years. As Professor Linda Colley said in her masterly analysis, Acts of Union and Disunion, a “policy of drift” will not lead to strength. If we look at what has happened for the past six years, when I have seen it at first hand, we are in a policy of drift.

The first phase, it seems to me, was the phase that occupied our time until our exit from the European Union. The European Union Committee produced a most able report, which said that the European Union provided much of the glue that held the union together. Nothing happened; there was drift.

We then turned to a period when I do not think there was drift—certainly not drift of a benevolent kind. It was characterised by the internal market Act, which did so much to damage relations, and by a marked reluctance to co-operate by taking the view that London knows best. That was unfortunate.

Thirdly, more recently there was a much more positive view, and I pay an especial tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist, who did so much to try to change the mood. She did much to improve co-operation and to try to get the Welsh Government, who were prepared to co-operate, involved. For example, one way in which she did this was to get something sensible agreed about the mission statements in the levelling-up Bill, where those concerned seemed to have entirely forgotten, in drafting large areas of policy, that a significant number of those had been devolved. I very much hope, and this is my question for the Minister, that we will continue this. I hope that she is going to exercise the role that the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, occupied. If not, who is? There should be someone doing that in this House when there is a Welsh Government interested in co-operation, in contrast to what we have heard about the Scottish Government. Fortunately, it appears to be continuing, and we see that in some of the current clauses of the victims Bill about to begin its Committee stage.

Although I regard it as essential that we get the mood music right, there is a much deeper question. It is a great coincidence—I was going to put it down to masterly strategy, but I do not think you can achieve that in timing debates in this House—that this debate coincided with the delivery of the report of Dr Rowan Williams, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, and Professor Laura McAllister today, because I think they raise a much more important question. I want to look at it not through their lens but through a different lens, which is the lens of the union. I think we have forgotten how to make clear the purpose of the union and how we strengthen it.

It is quite obvious, when we look at powers, that there are some powers that are almost exclusively for the London Government, if I may call it that: defence and foreign policy. Even on those, there is a tiny interaction with devolved government. There are other areas. For example, one can take macroeconomic policy and right down through economic policy development, where there is an absolute need for co-operation. I think that what we lack is not merely a proper, coherent structure but a proper understanding of what our union is for, who takes the lead and how we get co-ordinated policies. One example of where this went wrong a little earlier this year was dealing with the legislation to do with standards during strikes. Had anyone properly analysed whether we wanted a situation in which the London Government took over and decided minimum standards for hospitals in Wales? Fortunately, they came to their senses and did not do this in respect of ambulances, because the statutory instrument was limited to England and did not cover Wales, but we need a more coherent view of what the union is for, analytically set out, and how the powers interrelate, instead of what we get at the moment: “It says that industrial relations are reserved; therefore, forget it”. It is a completely nonsensical policy.

What we need is not only the analysis that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, provided about the structure of the intergovernmental relations but what is behind that—an analysis of the powers of the constitution. How this is to be done, I am not sure. Maybe the Constitution Committee of this House can do it, but it is a formidable task. Maybe we could persuade the Government, or an incoming Government, to do something, or maybe one of the think tanks will take it on, but a really good starting point would be the Act of Union Bill that the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, introduced in October 2018. It set out a very simple analysis of the powers of the union. We need to build on that and build our structure on intergovernmental relationships through an analysis of the powers. But we also need good will, and I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us on this.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I will add one sentence in support of the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. It is critical that we tie the funding of levelling up to the missions, not only for transparency but to work together as a union. I will return to this when we come to government Amendment 9.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I have worked in various guises on trying to preserve the sea link between Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly for some 25 years now. The Isles of Scilly Steamship Company is trying to undermine what is absolutely essential but has not been able to happen over 25 years: private funding of that ferry service. I believe that this cannot happen at the moment. Never mind the fares for the future: fiscally, it will not work as a scheme. That means that the money will be lost and, after 25 years, the “Scillonian” will not be replaced and those islanders and their economy will be cut off from the mainland. That is why this amendment is important, and I too hugely thank the Government for the generosity and understanding that they have shown to the islands and west Cornwall in terms of the levelling-up funding.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope the House will agree that these are positive and sensible steps to ensure that all parts of the UK can benefit from levelling up, while ensuring that the devolution settlements are respected. I beg to move.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s statement and will say how grateful I am, and I am sure that people in the devolved nations are, for the Government’s change of heart. It is important to recall that the devolved Administrations have responsibilities in the areas covered by the Bill. For example, in relation to Wales, both the Government and the Senedd have a responsibility for economic development and for levelling up.

One has seen this in policies and in the legislation that has been passed. I will give three examples. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, passed by the Senedd, showed how far-sighted the Welsh Government and the Senedd were in addressing inequalities and improving the well-being of people in Wales. Secondly, in 2020, A Framework for Regional Investment in Wales set out another set of policies designed to deal with economic regeneration, but in a way that dealt with inequality at every level of society and did so in conjunction with sustainable economic growth. Thirdly, in 2021, Welsh Ministers published their Economic Resilience and Reconstruction Mission, outlining very similar policies. It is important that the policies, although they have the same objective as one hopes the Government’s policies have, are being pursued with very different objectives in terms of how they are done and the methods.

It was this problem that arose when the Bill came to this House. The UK Government simply did not seem to understand that they were trampling over devolved policies. It was their view that Part 1 did not require the legislative consent of the Senedd, and they had taken the position that the UK Parliament could legislate and place duties on UK Government Ministers to set missions in areas where there was substantial responsibility in Wales and active promotion of those of the levelling-up agenda. It seems that they did not understand that Part 1 makes provisions that are within the legislative competence of the Senedd. The provisions therefore should not have been introduced in Part 1; the Government should had left this to the Senedd where matters were within its competence.

However, this important constitutional point need not be dealt with now. This is what I would call a pragmatic compromise, which is why I welcome it, because it underlines what I hope many have been trying to say in this House: the union will not work unless we work together.

I take this legislation as a commitment by the UK Government to work with the Governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and with the legislatures in those nations to ensure that the objectives and the means of getting there are pursued with some degree of co-ordination.

The one area that concerns me, and I telegraphed this a little earlier when I spoke, is how the shared prosperity fund—as it was once called, now the levelling up fund—is going to be dealt with. Unfortunately, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act and the way it dealt with what was then called the shared prosperity fund brought to an end 20 years of co-operation between the devolved Governments and others to see whether we could pursue a consistent policy for the distribution of funds. It is clear from the way the shared prosperity fund was first dealt with, and the amendment to try to ensure that it is dealt with in a co-ordinated way, that it has been lacking in co-ordination. Therefore, I very much hope that what the Government have said in this amendment will ensure that we go forward as a union with spending the money in a co-operative way, avoiding duplication, waste and, above all, any use of funds for political advantage.

That is why I strongly support this amendment. It is not ideal, as it does not grapple with the constitutional points, but it is a vast improvement on the attitudes that began to be shown in 2019. Fortunately, since about August of last year, things have got a lot better, so I welcome it. I hope I am not being unduly optimistic. My name should really give cause to say, “Well, there should be doubts”, but, having looked at what has happened over the past few months, I think one can look forward to this with a degree of optimism and leave the constitutional issues to be argued about at another time—I hope, never.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 17th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, particularly as he has drawn attention to the problems around the definition of levelling up. I regard this Bill as a great opportunity, and that therefore we should make the most of it. I want to deal with three points: first, the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, of putting in the Bill the metrics and mission statements; secondly, dealing with the problem that I will now have to refer to as national devolution, as opposed to local devolution—I will explain that in a moment—and, thirdly, to say a word about police governance.

I turn to the first of those points: should we put the metrics and the mission statements, or their equivalent, in the Bill? My view is that we should. We are dealing with something long term, and it is very important that it should not be subject to being tweaked for political expediency. We need to be firm in the definitions. Interestingly, if you look at the list conveniently published in the Library’s briefing of what the Government set out as the mission statements in February 2022, and then at the shorter version in the Explanatory Notes, you will see that they are not quite the same. This can be seen most clearly in the one that relates to digital connectivity. Maybe it is because one contains a comma and the other does not—I will always remember that a Permanent Secretary chided me for not appreciating the importance of commas—but, in my mind, it goes to underline the importance of there being clear statements that are objective and deal with the long term. The same must be true of metrics—it is exactly the same point.

We ought to look at this. The objection might be that Parliament does not have time, but we have time each year to pass an Army Act—I can assure noble Lords that that concentrates the mind. On something so vital to our future, we should find the time. As has been suggested, we must not leave out such things as child poverty. Why is that not in there? Parliament should debate and agree what these things are, and hold government to it by definable measures.

Secondly, there is the problem of what I will call devolution to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. There is a distinct difference in respect of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, because large areas of what we might call “home policy” covered by this Bill have been devolved. It is very important to appreciate that, in the case of education, health and housing, to take but three examples, the policy is a matter for the devolved Governments and not for the UK Government. How do we reconcile that problem in setting the mission statement? For two reasons, I think this a problem that we should not ignore. First, if the UK Government are entitled to set priorities and objectives, does that not undermine the power and position of the devolved Governments? Secondly, does it not then allow the devolved Governments to turn the argument back on the UK Government, to the disadvantage of us all? On something as important as this, we cannot be unclear on the constitutional responsibilities. It seems to me important to have discussion as to a proper way forward. Another illustration is that Wales has its own well-being Act. Are the objectives of that to be overwritten in this mission statement?

It seems quite clear that the provisions of the Bill will need legislative consent Motions. This often comes up late. I ask the Minister, either tonight or when replying, to say what the Government will do to try to resolve these problems in relation to devolution. They are there, and there is no use pretending they are not. They are there in the starkest form in these areas but arise also in other parts of the Bill.

I think there is a prospect here. I understand that the Welsh Government are keen to engage and I hope we can find a mechanism, which we have failed to find in earlier legislation of this kind, to get these issues resolved. It is no good, and it builds up ill will, if we do not do that. I hope the Minister will be encouraged to go forward with this. I am sure that the Welsh Government would engage as well.

Finally, I want to spend one second on the police. Police governance is of vital importance—that could not be clearer today. The Bill enables mayors to be given authority over the police. I do not question that, but I do question how it is to work in relation to large police force areas, which may contain several authorities. We have to think this through. There is nothing at all in the Bill about it. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to clarify this. I ask anyone who does not understand the problems of devolution of police control to boroughs to please look at what happened to the police reforms of 1960.

Building a Co-operative Union (Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee Report)

Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, declare an interest as a chancellor of a Welsh university, Aberystwyth, and an interest as a member of the First Minister’s advisory committee on the exit from the European Union. I also pay an enormous tribute to the stewardship and diligence that our chairman and the staff of this committee have brought to this task. If one looked at the title of this committee and the report, “Common Frameworks”, you would think this was an entirely unimportant and wholly dull subject. It is a tribute to the chairman and staff that they have made it both fascinating and interesting. Let me try to explain why before I turn to the detail.

It was obvious when we departed from the European Union that, as the devolution settlements had been crafted during the period of devolution, there had to be something in place, given the commitment that there would be no fundamental change to the position on devolution. It is a tribute to us as a nation—and I speak as a unionist—that we have innovated through this rather dull-sounding subject, because common frameworks are a constitutional innovation of great importance, which have not really been properly studied as yet. They have provided us with a way, which is important in any non-unitary state—and ours is no longer a unitary state—of devising a means of allowing the constituent elements to have a degree of freedom to differentiate but also to have a means of holding the union together. That is their fundamental importance and the fundamental innovation of this subject.

It was a great pity that the process did not get under way properly, but I do not want to go back over that—there is little point. What is important is that we now look to the future. I would like to look to the future under two headings. First, I look at the grind that is involved, because developing new constitutional principles is hard work and requires attention to detail.

One of the outstanding achievements of the staff of the committee is to start to analyse the frameworks. One knows, when we pass legislation, that parliamentary counsel are assiduous in looking at their books, working out what has to go in and making certain our legislation, our statute book, remains one of the prizes of the way in which we do things; but none of that exists for common frameworks. Therefore, it has needed an analysis—an analysis of the approach of the frameworks to policy co-operation, operational co-operation, joint risk assessment, involvement of senior officials, the frequency of meetings, the presence of advisory boards and groups, reporting commitments and the very difficult subject of Northern Ireland. All this needs analysis to make certain that these frameworks have a consistent constitutional principle.

Secondly, we need to ensure that there is detailed consultation—again, hard work—and then there has to be scrutiny. I hope it is not too much of a shock to my colleagues that we really need, in the end, to distil the principles under which these will operate. That is the detailed work, but it is so important because it goes to the governance of the United Kingdom. I read with admiration the report of the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, and I look forward to his contribution this afternoon, but it is hard to underestimate the importance of the frameworks in ensuring a strong union by getting right a co-operative effort to make certain policy is formulated on a common basis but, on the other hand, allowing a degree of diversity that benefits everyone and enables each of the separate nations to make their respective contributions.

One cannot underestimate the change that has occurred during the pandemic. I have been surprised, in Wales, to see the shift away from a firm belief in the union to a question over it. These common frameworks give us the opportunity to show the strength of the union and of devolution, but it requires hard work. That hard work will be to try—this is ultimately our biggest task —to make sure that people understand what is by its title apparently such a dull, yet is a highly important, subject.