European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill
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The Lord Bishop of Southwark
As many in your Lordships’ House are aware, my diocese covers most of south London and east Surrey. The voters there opted to remain in the European Union on 23 June 2016 by some margin; in the borough of Lambeth, where I live, nearly 80% of those voting opted to remain. Only in Sutton and in Surrey did votes tip the other way. What I have occasionally heard articulated, but have yet to see in action, is how the aspirations of those people—and indeed, if one thinks more widely, Londoners in general, or Scots, or the people of Northern Ireland or simply people under the age of 45—are to be taken into account. The majority of all these groups voted to remain. If we adopt a model for leaving the EU that ignores them, we risk a regional divide, generational resentment and a threat to the union.
The campaign, like that of 1975, was passionate and defining. Unlike 1975, it rode on divisions which have yet to pass away. Unlike 1975, there was little sophistication of argument in terms of what it is to be European, or detail as to what the alternative narrative for our place in the world might be. We should seek to mitigate the centrifugal forces unleashed. The Prime Minister, in her speech of 17 January, spoke of our European identity. It is time, both in these negotiations and without, to take practical steps to recognise this simple fact of geography and the cultural ties we share.
Arguably, we have more in common with the countries of western Europe than we do, for example, with the United States of America. For Her Majesty’s Government to respond more positively than they have done to amendments on the residence rights of EU citizens already living here would be one such practical action, but there must be others. The land border in Ireland is also of special concern. In addition, there is something providential in the untapped potential of our associations with the Commonwealth, a truly global entity. Such acts of affirmation that we are citizens of Europe would do something to assure the 48% that they are not ignored.
The issue around EU residents is not simply one of a quid pro quo for the 1.2 million to 2 million British citizens in other EU countries; it is about dealing with the uncertainty that stigmatises millions of our neighbours and erodes the common good.
It is good to read in the Government’s White Paper that, even in the EU, Parliament remains sovereign. It is in that light that I hope the Government will accept that the origins of persistent attempts to amend this Bill lie partly in their own resistance to parliamentary scrutiny of the process of leaving the EU. We do not legislate by plebiscite, nor do we govern solely by decree. We have, perforce, in recent months, under pressure and under judicial direction, rightly evolved a practical understanding of proper scrutiny in the second Chamber based on the constitutional bedrock of the Queen in Parliament rather than, as hitherto, the bare exercise of the royal prerogative. As I speak, the Prelates and Barons who scrutinised Magna Carta are looking down upon our deliberations, so there are long established precedents for the solemn task entrusted to us by the Bill. Our Writ of Summons commands us to attend to assemble for “arduous and urgent affairs” and to give “counsel”.
A fresh approach by the Executive of partnership with the legislature may indeed make this time in the life of our nation much more fruitful, not least because those with whom they must negotiate are not likely to prioritise solely economic considerations; otherwise, we may find that the Government’s confidence in the ease with which a deal may be struck is misplaced, and Parliament will be merely a frustrated bystander. Despite these and many other concerns shared by my colleagues on this Bench about the terms of our exit and our future relationship with the EU, I recognise that the Bill before your Lordships’ House is primarily about process rather than substance.
The electorate voted last year to leave the EU. Despite the vagaries of the European Union Referendum Act, it was clear that voters understood that they were, in effect, making a decision, not merely expressing an opinion. They did so in sharply differing numbers riven by age, income, qualifications and location. Regrettably, many parts of the country that have most benefited from EU funding voted decisively, if quixotically, to leave. The Bill in the form in which it comes before your Lordships passed the elected House with a large majority. The subject of what Britain’s future relationship with the EU should be remains an open question and should rightly be subject to intense debate and scrutiny. The Government will ease the Bill’s passage if they give way on scrutiny. It is the view of a number on these Benches, including my noble friend the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, who regrets that he is unable to be here today, that it would be preferable not to weigh down the Bill with additional provisions. For these reasons, I take the view that, where there is a choice on offer between government assurances and the passing of amendments to the Bill, the more sensible course would be to bank the former and avoid the latter.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, at the last count, 179 Back-Benchers had signed up to speak in this debate. I have no wish to add to that number. However, noble Lords will know that we have adjusted the Sitting time tomorrow to take account of the unusually high demand from Members to speak across the two days. It may also be for the convenience of the House if I note that, if Back-Bench speeches average six minutes each, as recommended, we expect the House to rise around midnight both today and tomorrow. I hope that noble Lords will take note of that.
Outcome of the EU Referendum
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, it may be helpful if I make a brief business statement regarding our proceedings this afternoon and in the coming days. My noble friend the Leader will now repeat the Prime Minister’s Statement on the outcome of the EU referendum. Following discussions in the usual channels, we have made provision for 40 minutes of Back-Bench questions. I have also agreed to consider further extensions if at the end of 40 minutes there is still a significant number of Members wishing to ask questions.
I reassure noble Lords, however, that this will be the first of several occasions for the House to take stock of recent events. There is a European Council meeting later this week, and we intend to arrange a full debate next week—probably on Tuesday, in lieu of the Second Reading of the Policing and Crime Bill, which will be rescheduled to a later date.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat the Statement given by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the result of the EU referendum.
Last week saw one of the biggest democratic exercises in our history, with over 33 million people from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all having their say. We should be proud of our parliamentary democracy. However, it is right that, when we consider questions of this magnitude, we do not just leave it to politicians but rather listen directly to the people. That is why Members from across this House voted for a referendum by a margin of almost 6:1.
Let me set out for the House what this vote means, the steps we are taking immediately to stabilise the UK economy, the preparatory work for the negotiation to leave the EU, our plans for fully engaging the devolved Administrations, and the next steps at tomorrow’s European Council.
The British people have voted to leave the European Union. It is not the result that I wanted nor the outcome that I believe is best for the country I love, but there can be no doubt about the result.
Of course, I do not take back what I said about the risks: it is going to be difficult. We have already seen that there are going to be adjustments within our economy, complex constitutional issues and a challenging new negotiation to undertake with Europe. However, I am clear, and the Cabinet agreed this morning, that the decision must be accepted and the process of implementing the decision in the best possible way must now begin.
At the same time, we have a fundamental responsibility to bring our country together. In the past few days, we have seen despicable graffiti daubed on a Polish community centre and verbal abuse hurled against individuals because they are members of ethnic minorities. Let us remember that these people have come here and made a wonderful contribution to our country. We will not stand for hate crime or these kinds of attacks. They must be stamped out.
We can reassure European citizens living here and Brits living in European countries that there will be no immediate changes in their circumstances. Neither will there be any initial change in the way that our people can travel, in the way that our goods can move, or in the way that our services can be sold.
The deal we negotiated at the European Council in February will now be discarded and a new negotiation to leave the EU will begin under a new Prime Minister.
Turning to our economy, it is clear that markets are volatile and there are some companies considering their investments. We know that this is going to be far from plain sailing. However, we should take confidence from the fact that Britain is ready to confront what the future holds for us from a position of strength.
As a result of our long-term plan, we have today one of the strongest major advanced economies in the world and we are well placed to face the challenges ahead. We have low, stable inflation. The employment rate remains the highest that it has ever been. The budget deficit is down from 11% of national income and forecast to be below 3% this year. The financial system is also substantially more resilient than it was six years ago, with capital requirements for the largest banks now 10 times higher than before the banking crisis.
The markets may not have been expecting the referendum result but, as the Chancellor set out this morning, the Treasury, the Bank of England and our other financial authorities have spent the last few months putting in place robust contingency plans.
As the Governor of the Bank of England said on Friday, the Bank’s stress tests have shown that UK institutions have enough capital and liquidity reserves to withstand a scenario more severe than the country currently faces. The Bank can make available £250 billion of additional funds if it needs to support banks and markets. In the coming days, the Treasury, the Bank of England and the Financial Conduct Authority will continue to be in very close contact. They have contingency plans in place to maintain financial stability and they will not hesitate to take further measures if required.
Turning to preparations for negotiating our exit from the EU, the Cabinet met this morning and agreed the creation of a new EU unit in Whitehall. This will bring together officials and policy expertise from across the Cabinet Office, the Treasury, the Foreign Office and the Department for Business. Clearly, this will be the most complex and most important task that the British Civil Service has undertaken in decades, so the new unit will sit at the heart of government and be led and staffed by the best and brightest from across our Civil Service. It will report to the whole Cabinet on delivering the outcome of the referendum, advise on transitional issues and explore objectively options for our future relationship with Europe and the rest of the world from outside the EU. It will be responsible for ensuring that the new Prime Minister has the best possible advice from the moment of their arrival.
I know that colleagues on all sides of the House will want to contribute to how we prepare and execute the new negotiation to leave the EU, and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will listen to all views and representations and make sure that they are fully put into this exercise. He will be playing no part in the leadership election.
Turning to the devolved Administrations, we must ensure that the interests of all parts of our United Kingdom are protected and advanced. So as we prepare for a new negotiation with the European Union, we will fully involve the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments. We will also consult Gibraltar, the Crown dependencies, the overseas territories and all regional centres of power, including the London Assembly. I have spoken to the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales, as well as the First and Deputy First Ministers in Northern Ireland, and the Taoiseach, and our officials will be working intensively together over the coming weeks to bring our devolved Administrations into the process for determining the decisions that need to be taken. While all the key decisions will have to wait for the arrival of the new Prime Minister, there is a lot of work that can be started now; for instance, the British and Irish Governments will begin meeting this week to work through the challenges relating to the common border area.
Tomorrow I will attend the European Council. In the past few days I have spoken to Chancellor Merkel, President Hollande and a number of other European leaders. We have discussed the need to prepare for the negotiations, in particular the fact that the British Government will not be triggering Article 50 at this stage. Before we do that, we need to determine the kind of relationship we want with the EU. That is rightly something for the next Prime Minister and their Cabinet to decide. I have also made this point to the Presidents of the European Council and the European Commission, and I will make this clear again at the European Council tomorrow.
This is our sovereign decision and it will be for Britain—and Britain alone—to take. Tomorrow is also an opportunity to make this point: Britain is leaving the European Union but we will not turn our back on Europe or on the rest of the world. The nature of the relationship we secure with the EU will be determined by the next Government but I think everyone is agreed that we will want the strongest possible economic links with our European neighbours, as well as with our close friends in North America and the Commonwealth, and important partners such as India and China. I am also sure that, whatever the precise nature of our future relationship, we will want to continue with a great deal of our extensive security co-operation and to do all we can to influence decisions that will affect the prosperity and safety of our people here at home.
This negotiation will require strong, determined and committed leadership and, as I have said, I think the country requires a new Prime Minister and Cabinet to take it in this direction. This is not a decision I have taken lightly but I am absolutely convinced that it is in the national interest. Although leaving the EU was not the path I recommended, I am the first to praise our incredible strengths as a country. As we proceed with implementing this decision and facing the challenges it will undoubtedly bring, I believe we should hold fast to a vision of Britain that wants to be respected abroad, tolerant at home, engaged in the world and working with our international partners to advance the prosperity and security of our nation for generations to come. I have fought for these things every day of my political life and I will continue to do so. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
On my own behalf and as Leader of this House, I believe there is a particular role for the House of Lords in this period as we deliver on the clear instruction of the British people. We can provide stability by lending our experience, knowledge and expertise to the challenges we face, and add something different to the House of Commons in helping to make this decision work for Britain. Our EU Committee and its sub-committees are well placed to assist the House. As my noble friend the Chief Whip has already indicated, we will facilitate a debate in government time next week which will provide a further opportunity for the views of noble Lords to be heard.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, if we go round the House, it is actually the turn of the Liberal Benches.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, I am very much concerned about some of the complacency that I am currently hearing from the Government. Since the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and others on the Conservative Benches have the opportunity for direct conversation with the collection of MPs, one of whom will be our future Prime Minister, would they convey this? The City is already making its decisions, as are major businesses. Most of them started planning for the contingency of leave months ago. Over the weekend, we have heard very clearly, and the CBI have confirmed, that many major firms have put on a hiring freeze. Others are now reassuring their shareholders that they have plans in place to be able to move significant parts of their operations to continental Europe or Ireland. If they do not hear a clear commitment, a cast-iron guarantee, in a matter of days—possibly weeks, but certainly not months—from that group from which the Prime Minister will come, that we will remain wholly in the single market, the decisions will become irreversible. Many already are and the remainder and many more will happen. Complacency is not safe.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
It is the turn of the Labour Benches. I hope that the Cross Benches will have an opportunity of getting in after that.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, the Prime Minister made a very dignified statement on the steps of No. 10 last Friday. He again made a dignified Statement today in the other place. He is a decent and honourable man. Would it therefore not be very sad if future historians were to see his legacy as having made a very powerful statement against referendums a few years ago and then changing his mind because of a will-o’-the-wisp, illusive attempt to find party unity, a legacy which led to Britain leaving the European Union and, potentially, breaking up our own United Kingdom itself?
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, will the noble Baroness give a solemn undertaking—
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Perhaps we can hear from the Cross Benches, then from the Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative Benches.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I am deeply grateful. Will the noble Baroness give an undertaking to the effect that before even contemplating activating the machinery of Article 50, the Government will first of all take into account the solemn voice of the two legislatures, and that failing to do so would be to abrogate and render nugatory the whole concept of parliamentary sovereignty? It is extremely sad and ironic that in the light of the European Union Act 2011 it is necessary for there to be a referendum and a parliamentary resolution before there can be any acquiescence to change. Indeed, it would be very strange that an act so existential as leaving the Union could take place without a parliamentary decision.
Baroness King of Bow
My Lords, our constitutional role in this House is to scrutinise legislation and say to those in power, “Pause, reflect and vote again”. It is not a popular role, and I know that I will not be popular saying it here today. None the less, the House of Lords should ask those with power—in this case, the British people—to do the same thing that we ask the Government to do all the time: pause, reflect and vote again. They can vote the same way if they want—the Government do that all the time, don’t they?—but let us bear in mind that the British people were asked if they wanted the UK to remain or leave the EU. They were not asked if they wanted to break up the UK. Given that that is just one of the disastrous likely consequences, it is only fair that they should have that opportunity. In light of the petition, will the Government consider setting up a Joint Committee with the Commons simply to weigh the arguments for and against a second referendum, which may be at the end of the two-year process? If the answer is no, what happens if the online petition gets more than 17 million British signatories?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I think I will ask my noble friend Lord Blencathra, who has been trying to get on his feet for the whole period of the Q&A.
Lord Blencathra
My Lords, I have been trying to get on my feet for a few years. As we conclude on the Statement today, as my noble friend the Leader noted, every major elected politician in the other place has said that, while they may not like the result, it must be respected and it must be implemented. Will she therefore caution some of my noble friends and all noble Lords that if we wish to unite the nation after this, this unelected House must not seek to thwart the will of the people by going into endless negotiations on or amendments to the minutiae of any legislation, which would be seen as a direct attempt to sabotage the will of the people?
European Council
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their remarks and their support for what the Prime Minister has negotiated in Europe this weekend.
I shall start by reflecting on the significance of the events at the end of last week. On Friday my right honourable friend the Prime Minister did something that many people had predicted was not possible: he delivered a legally binding, irreversible renegotiation of our relationship with the European Union. In doing so he secured a new settlement, carving out a special status for this country that gives us the best of both worlds and means that we remain in the parts of Europe that work for us—the noble Lords have talked about some of them—around making sure that we are stronger and safer. That most definitely includes security: although we retain our responsibility to national security, we benefit from the co-operation of our partners in Europe in terms of protecting ourselves from terrorism. Through his renegotiation my right honourable friend has secured terms that mean we will be better off because of increasing competitiveness and the securing of the completion of the single market. He has also made sure that we stay out of the parts that are not in our best interests and have frustrated us for too long.
Having secured all that, we now need to get on with our other commitment to deliver to the British people the opportunity that they have long waited for to have their say on whether Britain should remain in or leave the European Union. The noble Baroness made reference to four months and the time between now and the referendum taking place. I note what the noble and learned Lord said about the length of time of the Scottish referendum campaign. I say to noble Lords that the reason why it is four months is that we are reflecting the proper processes and steps that it was agreed in the European Union Referendum Act should take place between now and the referendum happening. That process has started today: the statutory instrument confirming the date has been laid. That will be debated in both Houses and is subject to an affirmative resolution. Today we have also published the White Paper, which meets one of the requirements of the referendum Act regarding the other information that we as a Government are required to produce. That will happen, in line with the Bill, 10 weeks before the referendum takes place. So that is all in train.
With regard to other points raised by the noble Lords, I say to the noble Baroness, who talked about wanting to see the UK remaining a powerful figure within Europe as a result of the referendum, that I agree with her. We are a powerful player in Europe now and that is what we want to remain. She made the point that the European Union would continue to exist even if the United Kingdom voted to leave. She is absolutely right: if this country decided to come out, the European Union would still be there. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said when he was being interviewed yesterday, one of my Cabinet colleagues said on Saturday when we were discussing his renegotiation, “This utopia might sound fantastic but I bet that when you got there, there would still be a European Union”. It is a place that will exist because other people would be members of it even if we were not.
The noble Baroness said it would be important that between now and the referendum taking place the Government continued to govern, and that there are other matters of greater importance to the people of this country. I agree with her about that; we have important business to conduct and will continue to do so.
The noble and learned Lord made reference to the effect on the currency markets. In my view, such an effect between now and the referendum taking place would be about uncertainty: we are now in a state where there is a debate going on and there is some uncertainty about the result of that referendum. What I, the Prime Minister and the Government are arguing is that, by voting to remain in the European Union, we would provide certainty for the future of this country. If this country decides to leave the European Union, it would create a long period of uncertainty.
As to the noble and learned Lord’s question about the sovereignty of Parliament, we have already, in the last few years, protected the sovereignty of this Parliament by passing that Act in 2011, which means that never again can any Prime Minister give away powers to the European Union without coming back to this country and giving the people a say. The very fact that we are having a referendum later this year, in June, is also an act of sovereignty. It also means that the people of this country are in charge of their own destiny. I very much believe and hope that the result of the referendum will see that we remain strong and secure in our future, having the best of both worlds, which means being part of a reformed Europe, but also being in charge of our own destiny and taking advantage of the changes that the Prime Minister has been able to negotiate.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, we are now into an extended period of 40 minutes, which reflects the importance of the Statement made by my noble friend the Leader of the House. We will make the most of that time if noble Lords, with a little bit of self-discipline, restrict themselves to short questions. On top of that, we will be able to go around the House in our usual way.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, first, perhaps I may just build on what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, said. Should not the Prime Minister make more of the fact that it means a lot to countries dealing with the United Kingdom that we are part of the European Union? Countries such as India see the UK as a gateway to Europe and I do not think that enough is made of that. Secondly, perhaps I may build on what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said. The Prime Minister talks about the best of both worlds. You can be a Eurosceptic, as I think I am—I hate the way that the European Parliament works and the fact that it has to go to Strasbourg every month, and I hate the gravy train, the waste of money and the fact that nobody I am aware of knows who their MEP is—and still believe that it is the lesser of two evils, rather than the best of both worlds. Does the Minister agree that it is probably better to stay in the European Union because it is the best of both worlds and the lesser of two evils?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
On the last point that my noble friend makes, the Government have adopted a position and are not neutral on this. We are arguing to remain in a reformed European Union because we believe that that is in the best interests of the people of this country. But, ultimately, it is for them to decide. Like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, my noble friend is right to say that the people who would advance leaving have to make their case and be clear in their arguments. To be honest, the inclusion in the campaigns of some very significant figures—potentially from this House and from the other place; I do not know how everybody is going to vote—means that there will be a serious debate over the next few weeks. I think that that is a good thing.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I wonder whether we might hear from the noble Lord, Lord Low.
Lord Low of Dalston (CB)
My Lords, it would be entirely appropriate for the Government to make the case which they support for remaining in the European Union with all the strength at their command. The case for remaining within the European Union does not stand or fall by the details of the deal that the Prime Minister negotiated in Brussels at the weekend. Nevertheless, it is very clear from the Prime Minister’s Statement, which the noble Baroness the Leader of the House has repeated for us, that the deal tends much more to the substantial and significant, as was depicted by my noble friend Lord Hannay, rather than the trivial and inconsequential, as portrayed by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson. However, it is probably fair to say that the balance of the media comment and their portrayal of the deal has tended towards the trivial and inconsequential. Given that, will the Minister provide an assurance that the Government will spare no effort to get across to the British people the substantial and significant progress that the Prime Minister has made in persuading the European Union to accommodate the British position and that it does not remain within the Westminster bubble, as we have heard it described this afternoon?
European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I was very pleased to repeat my right honourable friend’s Statement about this important issue of Britain’s role in, and relationship with, Europe. We were elected as a Government to lead a process of reform and renegotiation and to hold a referendum on the EU. Many said that what we had set out to do would be impossible, yet we have already legislated for that referendum and we now have a draft text on the table that puts forward significant reforms in each of the four areas that are of greatest concern to the British people. The important thing to stress is that this is about addressing their concerns and the things that they have highlighted, all too often, over a very long time about Britain’s relationship with the European Union.
Before I address some of the specific points that were raised by the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, I would say that, contrary to the way in which the noble Baroness described my right honourable friend’s approach to his responsibility, he has been very careful in his approach and very diplomatic. He had a plan which he was keen to put forward, negotiate over, hopefully achieve agreement on and then implement. What he has achieved so far is something that no other British Prime Minister has yet achieved in terms of coming to this Parliament and saying that there is the chance now to bring back powers to the United Kingdom from Europe. That is incredibly important.
The noble Baroness referred to one of the things we already achieved in the coalition Government: the justice and home affairs opt-outs. That was unprecedented in terms of us renegotiating our agreement with Europe on something that was very important. Both she and the noble and learned Lord talked about the use of language and about putting forward the positive case for Britain’s membership of Europe during the referendum campaign. That is clearly an important aspect of any campaign. The Statement from the Prime Minister that I have repeated was very clear that there are real benefits to the United Kingdom being in Europe, which we would lose if we were no longer part of Europe. He was also very clear in his Statement that it would be possible for the UK to survive outside of the European Union.
The noble Baroness asked about details missing from the documents that have been published and put forward by the Commission. This is a live negotiation, and those details are still to be discussed and debated. The Prime Minister is hosting the Syria conference today, which he will take as an opportunity to talk to other Heads of Government. He is travelling to Europe at the end of this week, and there will be another European Council on 18 and 19 February. A lot of this is still very much in play and up for negotiation, so I am not able to provide more detail on anything that is missing.
However, I assure the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord that, after the next European Council, I will, as is customary, repeat the Prime Minister’s Statement in this House. We do not yet know whether the Prime Minister will reach an agreement at that European Council, but in his Statement yesterday he committed to a full day’s debate in the other place after an agreement is reached. I am quite confident that we will be able to secure some time, in government time, for a debate in this House to discuss whatever the Prime Minister is able to agree, although I stress that we cannot be sure that that will happen at the European Council that is taking place later on this month.
The noble and learned Lord asked me about the legal status of the documents. It is very clear, because Mr Tusk has made it clear, that these are legally binding documents; they are irreversible. If the Prime Minister reaches an agreement with the other member states that he wishes to put forward to the people of this country, for them to decide then that they want to remain in Europe, after that decision is made then they will take operational effect—they will become operative—immediately. There are some elements that will be legally binding straight away. The deal will take effect straight away.
There will be some measures that are identified in the draft deal that will require some secondary legislation, perhaps through the European Parliament, but because of the way in which the Prime Minister has approached his renegotiation with Europe, a lot of the different institutions and people involved in this process have already come out and said that they are ready to respond and to do what is necessary in this case—in that case, in the European Parliament. We are confident that we will be able to make full progress should that deal be made, should the British people decide that that is what they want, because of the way in which people have already responded.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, we are now into an extended period of Q&A of 40 minutes. I recommend to the House that we be succinct in the questions that we lay and that we go round the House in our customary fashion. This should enable everybody to make a point.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has been trying to get in for some time.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, on the increased subsidiarity provisions that have been agreed, so that some decisions that have in the past been taken at European level will now be taken within the UK, can the Minister confirm that decisions on devolved matters will henceforward be taken in the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I am afraid I shall have to write to the noble Lord on that one. It may be a bit of a technicality. Maybe we just have not got that far in the negotiations; I do not know. But if I can offer any more information in writing, of course I will.
House of Lords: Strathclyde Review
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
We are now looking for a way forward that provides that certainty and clarity, and I hope very much that we will be able to achieve that soon.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, we now have a period for Back-Bench questions and I hope that noble Lords will recognise that there is a lot of interest in this matter. As my noble friend said, there will be an extensive debate on this early in January, when noble Lords will be able to make their comments. It would be helpful if this period were used for brief questions, so that the maximum number of people can participate.
Syria: UK Military Action
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That this House takes note of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals for military action against ISIL in Syria.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, it may be helpful if I make a brief business statement regarding our proceedings this afternoon. There are 64 Back-Bench Members who wish to speak in our debate today. If contributions are limited to four minutes each, we would expect the winding speeches to start at about 9 pm. This would allow the House to make its contribution to the debate before the House of Commons vote on the Government’s proposals, which is expected to be at about 10 o’clock. I remind noble Lords that the clocks are set at zero when they rise to speak and that when the clock shows “4” the full four minutes will have elapsed—so if you see “4”, your time is up. The Whips have been instructed to deal firmly with noble Lords who exceed the speaking time. In the circumstances, I therefore ask noble Lords to be restrained in intervening on speakers.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, if speeches overshoot, what will happen at 9.30 pm?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I think I can count on this House to show good sense in the way in which it deals with a very important subject. We all have a collective interest in allowing everyone who has indicated a wish to do so to have their say. The whole purpose of this statement is to encourage the House to exercise self-restraint in doing so.
Draft Investigatory Powers Bill Committee
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(9 years ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That this House concurs with the Commons message of 9 November that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft Investigatory Powers Bill presented to both Houses on 4 November 2015 (Cm 9152);
That a Committee of seven Lords be appointed to join with the Committee appointed by the Commons and that the Committee should report on the draft Bill by 11 February 2016;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee:
B Browning, L Butler of Brockwell, Bp Chester, L Hart of Chilton, L Henley, L Murphy of Torfaen, L Strasburger;
That the Committee have power to agree with the Committee appointed by the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman;
That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records;
That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom;
That the reports of the Committee from time to time be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the evidence taken by the Committee be published, if the Committee so wishes; and
That the quorum of the Committee shall be two.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend the Leader of the House and on her behalf, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.
Syria: Refugees and Counterterrorism
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, can we please have order? I am afraid that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, arrived in the Chamber not only after the Statement had been read but also after the contribution had been made from her own Front Bench. In the circumstances she ought to follow the Companion and not speak. It is the Labour Party’s turn and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is on his feet.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, on the basis of the admittedly limited evidence that we have, the Government were absolutely right to take a decision to eliminate those three terrorists. I think that in similar circumstances they will have the support of almost the whole country in taking action when it is necessary and clearly called for in instances of that kind.
Is it not the case that we badly need a debate on refugees, not just a Statement, not least because of the longer-term consequences and almost certainly a great increase in the number of refugees and immigration applicants from all sorts of places as a result of the drama of the last few weeks? Is it not however, sadly, really rather nauseating for the Prime Minister to congratulate himself on a policy of “extraordinary compassion”—that is the phrase used in the Statement this afternoon—when, in fact, we are taking none at all of the refugees from Syria who are currently on the move? We are taking only up to 20,000 over five years. Have not the Germans, who have undertaken to take 800,000 almost immediately, thoroughly put us to shame on that? Is there not also the rather unpleasant sense that on this very important issue, as in so many others, the Government’s policies seem driven by a PR agenda? Ten days ago when immigrants or refugees were bad news generally in many people’s minds in the Government, the Government were not prepared to take a single new Syrian refugee. Then the media published pictures of dead children on the beach—
Tunisia and European Council
Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, in order to satisfy the interest in this subject I propose that we extend the time for questions on the Statement for another 10 minutes.
Lord Jay of Ewelme
My Lords, I am very grateful for the Statement and I agree with every word that the Leader of the House said on Tunisia. As I know only too well, terrorist attacks of this sort are immensely difficult and traumatic for those who are caught up in them and for their families and friends. I congratulate the Government on the quick response of the Foreign Office and others to the attacks in Tunisia. I very much support what the Prime Minister and the Leader have said about greater funding for the police and the security services because I fear that we are inevitably going to see further attacks of this sort around the world. Will the noble Baroness confirm that there will also be sufficient funding for the Foreign Office, and particularly its consular services, because they, too, are going to be required to provide the services that people who are attacked and affected both deserve and need?
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
Can I take the Minister back to her answer to the last point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, about cross-Mediterranean migration and death? She referred to the pull factor that discourages us from agreeing to receive any of these poor people if they make it. I cannot see the logic of that. I can see that there could be a pull factor when the news gets back home that somebody has made it across the water, but we do not think that is a deterrent to rescuing them, and quite right too. I do not see why it should be an additional pull factor if the postmark on the news is French, British or Danish. If they have made it across, surely if there is any pull factor it is there, so I do not see why we absolve ourselves from any moral responsibility to help. Could the Minister look at page 4 of the conclusions and help me with the footnote, which appears to say, as far as I can see, that our partners in Protocols 21 and 22 to the treaties—the Irish and the Danes, who like us have no obligation to take anybody—have decided that they will not rule out taking people, whereas we specifically chose to rule out doing so? Is she quite sure that that was wise, given that we are engaging in a negotiation that in the end will require unanimity, and that Prime Minister Renzi has a very real problem?