Mobile Roaming (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

At the end insert “but that this House regrets that the draft Regulations do not, contrary to the recommendation of several consumer bodies, make provision for the maintenance of surcharge-free roaming for customers in the United Kingdom”.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for introducing this SI and for his very clear explanation of the issues that were raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, to which I may want to return. The department has had a good reputation in recent years for steering through some of the most complicated issues affecting modern society, concerning the internet, communications and related issues, with some skill. It is good that it is planning and thinking through some of the issues that have engaged this House, particularly in recent legislation concerning such issues as data protection and internet safety. We look forward to further work on that, with a White Paper coming soon. I never know what “soon” means, but the Minister is nodding so it will presumably be before Christmas.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is soon, verging on imminent.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Variations on a theme are always interesting. However, I think that in recent weeks the department has not covered itself in glory. I thought that the decision on portability was wrong. Having seen the negotiations about that I know that there is considerable consumer interest in being able to take content that one has paid for on holiday and to use it in other territories. To find that being taken away after such a short period of time is going to be a disaster. I think that this issue about roaming is also going to be a problem for the Government when people realise what has happened and what decisions have been taken. I mention this because I want to go a little further into some of the background, although I know there has been some change and I hope that the Minister will flesh that out when he comes to respond.

We had a big discussion about roaming. I like this word “roaming”. It brings visions of going with one’s beloved at the end of the day with the sunset and enjoying whatever one does in those circumstances. Of course, it is not true when you cannot get the mobile signal that will allow you to communicate with your beloved these days. You cannot get it in London, let alone in the far reaches and romantic parts of the country. I do not know why I said that, but it gets us into a broader area of discussion and debate.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

It is more worrying when the expression is, “roaming away from home”.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Indeed. The reason I touched on this is because of the irony around the issue of roaming, which we are going to centre this debate around. The EU regulation that brought this in is exactly as the noble Baroness said: the standard that the EU was trying to establish was that people travelling in Europe would have the same quality of service that they have at home. Indeed, the regulation was called the “roam like at home” regulation. Of course, we do not have roaming at home, in any sense of the phrase. The issue, therefore, is why? If you are in a not-spot you are not able to connect to get all the benefits of the internet and the mobile telephony that the Minister was talking about. Yet the Government have consistently set their mind against opening up the possibility of having some roaming charges in this country.

I know there is development on this, and I want the Minister to cover that, but I refer to the exchanges in the other place on the Urgent Question to which he referred, particularly that between Robert Halfon and Jeremy Wright, the Secretary of State. Robert Halfon asked why it was that,

“too many people do not get a mobile phone signal in our country? Indeed, we cannot even get one in many places in the House of Commons. Will he examine access to roaming charges, as his predecessor, the current Home Secretary, did, and allow people who cannot get a signal to roam on to other domestic networks?”

We spent a lot of time pursuing the Government on that in debate on the Digital Economy Act; although we did not get it through in the end, I still think it is an issue. However, the Secretary of State responded by saying the Government were committed to reaching,

“95% of the UK landmass with a mobile phone signal. I am determined to ensure that we meet that target, and to do so, we will rule nothing out that may achieve our objective”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/2/19; col. 416.]

I also note that the department put out a Statement on the same day suggesting that it is going to consider the question of roaming at home more favourably. In other words, there is a proposal in the SSP for Ofcom that consideration should be given to the possibility of making sure that access to mobile telephony is increased, possibly by looking at this question of roaming at home. Can the Minister confirm whether this is now on the table again? Could he sketch out for us the actual issue that will be assessed under the SSP, and what the timescale will be? That would help us considerably on this issue.

There is no doubt at all in my mind—and it comes up every time we talk about mobile telephony in this House—that the current situation is not working. It is predicated on a competition between those who have licences to cover the country to the maximum effect, but it is clearly not working. It does not work locally; it does not work in far reaches; it certainly will not do the job it needs to do to tie up the wi-fi high-speed rollout, which will also require mobile telephony to get to the final few per cent of our population. We have a real problem facing us; if we cannot get the investment and we cannot get the technology to work, then we will need something better than what we currently have. I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that that is now firmly on the table.

If that is the case, then I return to the narrow question about why the SI is detailed in this way. I have two particular questions. The Minister touched upon the first but did not cover it in any detail—again, I hope there is more to come in his response. In Northern Ireland, there is obviously an issue about picking up signal from the other side of the border. In a single-country landmass, where there are no official borders or changes, one would think that this description of different approaches to the way in which people can receive signal would be entertained. What is meant by the Minister’s decision that measures will be taken to ensure that existing legislation preventing inadvertent roaming is going to be brought into effect in Northern Ireland? My understanding is that there is actually a benefit to those who live in Northern Ireland; they are getting access to better signal from south of the border, and they should not be penalised by inadvertent regulation—rather than inadvertent roaming—which will prevent them getting the service benefiting them and their businesses.

I have a similar problem in relation to Scotland. When I was on top of the mountain Sgorr Ruadh only six months ago, I discovered to my considerable interest that when you point your mobile phone in a certain direction, you actually start picking up signal from Iceland—it is really quite close, and I think the wind was in the right direction. If that is the case, why are we blocking this in Scotland in respect of other countries which have services that, for whatever reason, reach our far shores? Are the Government seriously saying that that will be made illegal, or is it again something that will be dealt with in a more appropriate arrangement?

The central point here is that the Government have made all the right noises about what they want to do in terms of telephony, wi-fi and investment in broadband. They have been overtaken to some extent by the technologies moving forward faster than some of the legislative processes; until now, the department has always been quite good at spotting this, and I hope it will continue. It would be great if the Minister could respond to some of the future issues that have been raised in this debate and try to give us some confidence that the Government are ahead of the game and that future statements will be made to give us confidence that they are addressing our concerns.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We have had discussions with operators, and it is correct that they have said that they have no plans to do that after Brexit. They have not said that if they are charged increased charges by foreign operators, they will absorb all the costs ad infinitum, for the rest of time, irrespective of what they are. That is not an unreasonable position. The point is that since roaming as if at home has been introduced, consumer requirements have changed, what consumers want has changed, the methods and technology has changed and consumer data usage has changed. For example, I think there is four times as much data being consumed as phone calls. It is very difficult to compare the situation 10 years ago, before any caps came in, to what will happen now.

However, in this country, there is competition between operators, which does not exist in all European countries, so the competitive element is very much at the forefront of consumers’ minds, but we are not requiring operators to accept a differential status, a one-sided regulation. I shall come to that later. When the Regulatory Policy Committee considered the impact assessment, it said that it was satisfied that any impact on price changes will not be a direct result of this SI.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked who we have consulted. We have consulted the big four operators O2, Vodafone, EE and Three, the mobile virtual network operators Sky, Virgin Media and Lebara, trade bodies Mobile UK, the Broadband Stakeholder Group and many consumer groups. He also asked what were the views of the mobile network operators. They expressed similar concerns about this scenario. Of course they were concerned about not being party to the EU roaming regulation, but that is a function of leaving the single market. They did not believe that the regulation mandating surcharge-free roaming could and should endure, for the reasons I mentioned, but I confirm that they said that, because of customer demand, they have no current plans to reintroduce roaming surcharges. That is not an unlimited guarantee forever, as I think I said.

As for BEREC, I agree entirely with both my honourable friend in the other place and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that our relationship with the European regulator has been beneficial not only to us but to BEREC. We are one of the leading regulators in the EU. Of course, if there is an agreement and an implementation period, the Government will seek arrangements with the EU or BEREC and, if there is no deal, it will be desirable for the Government to seek participation in BEREC. We have agreed in government—not just in DCMS but more widely—that that is beneficial. We will therefore continue making overtures to BEREC to try to have an arrangement that will involve not full membership but, if you like, associate membership where we can contribute our views.

I turn to the amendment to the Motion, which implies that we should not have done what we said we would and capped roaming charges. I explained in my opening speech why the UK cannot retain surcharge-free roaming in law in the event of no deal. The instrument recognises this by correcting deficiencies in retained EU law and removing rules on wholesale and retail charges that are simply unworkable if we leave the EU without a deal.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, prayed in aid the recommendations made by consumer bodies. As I said, we have had a number of conversations with them and provided detail of those interactions to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in advance of its report. I mentioned that it noted the benefits of surcharge-free roaming, but the fact is that when the UK is outside the single market, we will not be able to control the charges levied on UK mobile operators by their European counterparts, because this Parliament has no authority over them. The consumer organisations recognise that. For example, Which? stated on its website on 7 February 2019:

“In order to keep ‘roam like at home’ going, it is likely a similar mutual cap”—


by which it means on wholesale prices—

“would have to be agreed for it to be cost effective for mobile operators”.

Let us be clear on the implications of the noble Lord’s amendment to make provisions to retain surcharge-free roaming. The policy would explicitly put British companies at a disadvantage, compared with foreign competitors, by capping their retail charges but allowing EU operators the freedom to charge them whatever wholesale rate they like. It would put roaming at risk for some operators, thus removing competition. It could therefore force British network operators to increase their overall prices to recoup the foreign charges, so the policy could increase consumers’ costs.

However, it is worse than that. It would mean that people who choose to remain in this country are subsidising those travelling to Europe. The policy would increase the risk of legal uncertainty. Lastly, it would penalise heavily smaller mobile virtual network operators, because they use the physical networks of the main operators and therefore must accept the increased costs without a corresponding network usage to offer EU operators in return. To sum up, the policy could increase costs, have a negative impact on consumers and increase the legal risks around future roaming policy.

Which? suggests that the UK should seek to include mobile roaming in a deal with the EU and in trade deals with other countries. As government Ministers first set out in Answers to Written Questions last June, mobile roaming could form part of any trade negotiation we have with other countries after we leave the European Union, and the Government are exploring all options. Any arrangements on mobile roaming would be subject to negotiations. In the meantime, as I said before, there is no reason to prevent commercial negotiations between UK and EU operators.

For reasons noble Lords will understand, it is too early to detail exactly the future arrangement with our European partners. In the event of a no-deal exit, the amendments in the SI are essential. They will ensure legal clarity for consumers and businesses, retain all operable parts of current roaming law and protect consumers in the event of a no-deal exit. Meanwhile, I repeat that the largest four operators have no current plans to reintroduce charges, so on exit day and thereafter there will be no change.

I hope therefore that we can all agree that it is in the clear interests of British consumers and businesses that this SI is in place in the event of a no-deal outcome. In the light of my remarks, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment and I hope that these regulations will be approved.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for a full and wide-ranging debate. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for adding to my comments on the amendment so that we could debate and discuss it.

I am left with two thoughts. First, this Government have not been slow to interfere in a market where they felt that the competitive environment was not as perfect as it could be; I am thinking of the price cap brought in for domestic energy, which was accompanied by a commitment to look more widely at how prices are set in the market. That is not terribly different from mobile operators relying, as they do, on those who generate and those who sell. The two sides of the energy equation have analogues in what we are talking about here in mobile telephony. I take the general point that, after consideration, the Government decided that this was probably not the best decision to take, but I wonder exactly how they have balanced the interests of operators—both small and large—against those of consumers. I wonder whether we have missed an issue there. The consumer groups the Minister mentioned were unanimous in their view that there was a case for a better regulatory approach. At this stage, the arguments are pretty finely balanced.

Secondly, although I was glad to hear about the measure to look at both home roaming and the wider context, including 5G and all the other issues that must be addressed, Ofcom’s capacity will be squeezed. The Minister did not provide a timescale for the consideration or when the results would come back to this House, but we can look at that outside this session. I hope that there will be time for that. I want it recorded that I am glad that, at last, there is a solution to some of the not-spots and our difficulties with our mobile telephony. We will support the Government seriously pushing Ofcom to come up with a proper plan for this going forward. With those thoughts, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment to the Motion withdrawn.

Ofcom: RT News Channel

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The BBC’s charter was renewed for 10 years. Its job is to provide impartial news, and Ofcom regulates those services. It has been given the financial backing to do that—£3.8 million of licence-payers’ money. I believe that an extra £219 million has been provided over the next four years to increase the number of Russian language programmes that the BBC World Service can produce.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

It is clear that Ofcom is doing a thorough and effective job on this very difficult case. We hope it will move forward in an appropriate way. Does this case not raise the wider question of whether the holder of the broadcast licence here is a fit and proper person to carry out the duties for which it is responsible? The issue came up recently during the Sky takeover; there was common ground in the House that the existing rules, both through statute and through the precedents set in previous cases, mean that this is not an effective test. Are the Government going to do anything about that?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not want to talk specifically about RT for the reasons I mentioned. Ofcom has sanctions which can include fines, suspension or revocation of a licence if Ofcom deems that suitable.

Television Licences: Over 75s

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My noble friend is completely right that the BBC should pay attention to its social responsibilities, and it does. However, in the consultation surrounding the renewal of the royal charter, only 1.5% of people said that the BBC should have advertising. One of the reasons why allowing it would not be an easy solution is that all the other public service broadcasters, which do not start the year with £3.8 billion in subsidy, would find it even more difficult to do their excellent job.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, going back to the main point, this is a completely classic cock-up by the Conservative Party. It promised, in its manifesto, that this issue would continue until the end of the next Parliament—which I still think is 2022—but the new arrangements are supposed to take place from 2020. To compound the issue, the money runs out in 2020. If, as the Minister wishes, the BBC does continue to offer this arrangement, who is going to pay for it?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

When the funding settlement was put down in 2015, the BBC agreed to pay for it in 2020, in return for a five-year, index-linked settlement—the first time that had ever happened. The BBC has had four years to prepare for this; it knew it was coming. That is why we expect it to live up to what was agreed.

Mobile Networks: Resilience

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am not sure my noble friend is entirely correct. The problem involved Ericsson, a third-party software supplier to O2, and had worldwide effects, so there is no guarantee that his foreign phone would have worked. I hasten to add that that was only for data, not voice.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

Does this whole episode not highlight the need to completely reconfigure the universal service obligation, which is failing so badly, to include mobile telephony—it does not at present—and to ensure the whole system focuses more on infrastructure capacity, reliability and service?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As the noble Lord knows perfectly well, the universal service directive, which is the basis for the universal service obligation, only includes fixed-line service. Therefore, it would be impossible under European law to include mobile.

Online Pornography (Commercial Basis) Regulations 2018

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. Of course, this guidance and these regulations are not the be-all and end-all and not the total solution, but I very much hope that they will form part of the solution.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a very good debate, and I thank the Minister for his introduction, which allows us to range quite widely over the issues in play. I would observe—and I would not have it any other way—that over the last couple of years, the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, and I, and, indeed, one or two noble Lords who have spoken today, have spent a great deal of time together discussing and debating legislation and regulations which might apply to all pornography, and specifically in relation to protecting children. Some people bond over a coffee, football, the arts or shared hobbies; we do it with porn. In that sense I am with the right reverend Prelate who felt that he had to live it down in some way. I share his pain.

We have covered a lot of ground in this area and, although on the surface it is quite a narrow issue, getting the balance right between personal liberty and necessary regulation is never easy, and it is particularly hard to do given the technological changes that we are witnessing—in particular, the way in which information is now flowing through the internet.

I have been reading back some of the debates we had on the Digital Economy Act, as have others, and at some of the original regulations that we have already looked at which appointed the BBFC as the AV regulator. I want to make it clear that we do not want to hold up these statutory instruments—as noble Lords have already mentioned, they are already quite delayed. I have come to a provisional conclusion that what we have before us will not achieve what the Government intend, and may actually have unintended consequences and run the risk of stalling other, better alternatives, which I think we may have to consider in due course. Others have said this before, but it is worth repeating: these regulations are not future-proof; they are not comprehensive; they do not catch social media; they do not deal with overseas providers; they will not deal with non-photographic images and other more elaborate ways in which pornography is now being purveyed; and they do not bind together the companies involved to try to find a solution.

I will go through the regulations and make comments which are very similar to those that are already there and I will speak a bit to my own regret Motion. I will come back at the end of my remarks to where I think we need to go if we are going to take this issue further.

The general point on which I wish to start, before going on to the points raised by the scrutiny committees, is the argument I made before that a lot of the difficulty we have today with these regulations stems from the fact that we are trying to give statutory powers to a body that is essentially a private company. This is compounded—this comes up in the committee reports —by the fact that Parliament is not used to seeing regulations over which it has no direct authority, because they will be implemented through an arrangement between the department and a private body: the BBFC. In a sense, we are reading largely independent guidelines, fulfilling a mandate agreed within legislation but not subject to the specific scrutiny of this House, or indeed of the other place.

The BBFC is not a statutory body. It has no royal charter, so it cannot be assumed that it will act in the public good. It has a reasonable record, and it has statutory responsibility for videos and DVDs—but its work, for example in classifying films shown in the cinema, is done without any statutory authority. Will this issue be picked up in either the White Paper or the review which the Minister mentioned in his introduction?

My second point relates to the first in the sense that we have still not bottomed out the question of appeals that might arise as a result of the decisions being taken by the BBFC. We tried in the Digital Economy Bill to exert considerable pressure on the Government to get a separate regulator appointed as an appeals body. Indeed, we suggested that Ofcom would have been appropriate. Now we have a situation where the BBFC is the organisation of preliminary determinations and the body of first instance, but it is also the body for appeals. In principle, I do not think it is right that any body, statutory or otherwise, should be both judge and jury in its own cases. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. Can this be reviewed as part of the process?

Thirdly, we are skating round the question of what exactly is obscene material. Why do we have two existing definitions—one that is repeated in full in the documents before us but also one that derives from the definition of extreme pornography which is in another Bill? We had a good discussion about this during the DEA. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, mentioned some of the ideas that were considered and turned down at that time, but it was also raised in the Data Protection Bill—so it will not go away. I think that in the review that is coming, it is really important that we nail what exactly we are trying to say. Either it has to be done in terms of perception or in terms of physical activities. I do not think that it can be both.

Turning to the instruments themselves, on the electronic communications one, which was referenced by Sub-Committee B of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee, the issue seemed to be, as has already been said, the rather odd definition of a “commercial basis”. We are looking for assurances from the Minister in relation to how that will apply, particularly in relation to children who come across internet sources which do not fall within the criteria specified. The second point, which has also been picked up, is the question of one-third of the overall content, which is a very odd way of trying to approach what I think is a sensible idea—that there should be some de minimis limit on what is considered a commercial provider of pornography, but measuring it in the way that has been suggested. Even with the comments made by the department to the committee, the Government have not taken that trick. I look forward to the Minister’s comments in the hope that he will deal with some of the examples given by the Joint Committee, which seem to raise issues.

On the AV guidance contained within the statutory instrument on that matter, again there are suggestions from both committees. The first point is the rather nuanced one made by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee that, as the BBFC has not provided an exhaustive list of approved age-verification solutions, the Minister himself should explain more fully the types of arrangement which were deemed adequate. He may find that that is better done by correspondence.

The question raised by several speakers of why the Government have not brought forward the power under Section 19 to impose financial penalties is the focus of my regret Motion, and I shall deal with that now. Both Sub-Committee B and the Joint Committee found this a very strange decision, and others have mentioned it as well. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond in full. The argument is very straightforward. Since we have doubts about the whole process and the concerns that exist are about the lack of effective solutions to protect children, one would have thought that the only way in which we can make progress on this is to ensure that the regulator has the effective firepower to get compliance if required to do so. It is interesting that in the documentation, and in the other regulation before us, search engines are fingered. Providers of IT services and providers of advertising can be hit. It is clear from the parallel situation in the gambling world that the support of the payment providers has been absolutely crucial in stamping out illegal practices there. Why have the Government not taken these powers?

On the same issue, but approaching it from the other end, I had problems with the guidance about a non-compulsory, additional, voluntary, non-statutory assessment and certification of age-verification solutions package, which is shown in annexe 5 of the documents before us. I gather that it will be an external agency, probably one of the large auditing firms. I found this very difficult to understand, and would be grateful if the Minister could explain what exactly is going on here. How is it that the ICO, an independent statutory body, is down as having developed this solution in consultation with the BBFC? If that is the case, it seems that its independence has been compromised and I do not see how that can work. In any event, adding another non-mandatory voluntary system seems to be just another way of complicating an already difficult area, as well as raising considerable issues of privacy along the lines raised by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. Is this a wise step to take at the very start of a new venture? The whole question in relation to making a success of this seems to be in doubt. Will the Minister comment?

Finally, during the debate we held on the first order in this clutch of statutory instruments, which confirmed the BBFC as the age-verification regulator, the Minister confirmed that it was not the BBFC’s job to determine whether what is being offered on its sites to adult users is lawful. Can the Minister confirm that, despite the slightly ambiguous wording in some places in the draft guidance, the role of the BBFC is, as stated in the regulations, limited to assessing that a person offering such services,

“has met with requirements of section 14(1) of the Act, to secure that pornographic material is not normally accessible by children and young people under 18”?

In conclusion, I ruminated earlier about whether this was the right approach, given the need to get a proper grip of the situation. Let us put in context the fact that, through the Data Protection Act, we have set up and now brought to fruition a data ethics and innovation commission, which will deal with issues of personal data, privacy and the way in which they interrelate. We have begun to see the new, age-appropriate design approach to the way in which internet service providers have to look after the rights of children who get on to their sites. We have discussed the precautionary principle in relation to internet services more generally.

Finally, I will pose a question to the Minister. We have in front of us top-down, traditional approaches to regulation: setting limits, engaging in the possibility of serious action if the limits are breached, and making sure that—as far as possible—we are able to contain a situation that we think is now unacceptable. However, the only way to get by on this is if the companies themselves are involved, so a duty of care approach might be much more fruitful as a way forward. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on that.

--- Later in debate ---

Many noble Lords talked about the definition of extreme pornographic material. This was debated extensively—I will not forget it in a hurry—during the passage of the Bill. It is not within the scope of this debate, focusing entirely on the definition of commercial availability. However, because the primary legislation requires the Secretary of State to consult on the definitions before publishing a report on the impact and effectiveness of the regulatory framework, I think that is where we can continue that discussion. I assure noble Lords that we will revisit this issue. I suspect that I do not need to give that assurance and that it will be brought up anyway, but I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, that we will be flexible and proactive.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, was about to leap to her feet but, to save her doing so, I mention to the Minister that he did not answer the question which she posed, and which was picked up by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, about whether he would find time for the excellent two-paragraph Bill which she has in process and which would solve many of these problems.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I had not forgotten that. It would obviously be difficult for me to commit to finding the necessary time but I will take that back to the department. I am not sure that it is currently within the plans of the Chief Whip to bring forward that legislation but I will ask. I understand the point that is being made but, as I said, the issue may well be covered within the review. I am afraid I cannot go any further than that tonight.

As for ancillary service providers, the BBFC and the DDCMS have been engaging with several companies. They have already agreed to act, as doing so is in line with their current terms of service. Therefore, we are optimistic that the voluntary approach will work, and of course that will be reviewed.

The right reverend Prelate, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and others talked about the rationale for choosing one-third of content as the appropriate threshold. During the passage of the Bill, it was established that the focus should be on commercial pornography sites and not on social media. There were good reasons for that but I do not want to revisit them—that is what was decided. The one-third threshold was regarded as proportionate in introducing this new policy where sites make pornography available free of charge. However, websites that market themselves as pornographic will also be required to have age verification, even if less than a third of the content is pornographic.

A third is an arbitrary amount. It was discussed and consulted on, and we think that it is a good place to start on a proportionate basis. We will keep this matter under review and, as I said, it will be one of the obvious things to be taken into account during the 12 to 18-month review. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, asked how it will be measured. It will be measured by assessing the number of pieces of content rather than the length of individual videos. It will include all pornographic images, videos and individual bits of content, but the point to remember is that the threshold is there so that a decision can be made on whether it is reasonable for the regulator to assume that pornographic content makes up more than one-third of the entire content. This will be done by sampling the various sites.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked about ISP blocking and suggested that everyone would try to game the system to get out of meeting the requirements. That is not what we believe. The BBFC has already engaged with ISPs and we are confident that this will be an effective sanction. The wording in the guidance indicates that the regulator should take a “proportionate approach”. However, we are grateful for the noble Earl’s help. I am sure that he will also help during the review and later in the process when it comes to online harms. I see that he wants to help now.

Television Licences: Over 75s

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to maintain free television licences for those over the age of 75.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, we know that people across the country value television as a way to stay connected with the world. The Government have guaranteed free licences for those over 75 until 2020. We agreed with the BBC that responsibility for the concession will transfer to it in 2020. It confirmed that no decisions will be taken until the public have been fully consulted, but we have been clear on our expectation that the BBC will continue the concession.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, in its manifesto the Conservative Party actually promised free TV licences for the over-75s until 2022. However, the BBC is currently consulting on “what, if any” licence fee concession should be in place for older people from June 2020. The ONS classifies the BBC licence fee as a tax. Will the Minister point to the section in the royal charter that gives the BBC the power to levy taxes? He will recall that he said, on 29 March 2017:

“I reiterate that taxation is a matter for the elected Government”.—[Official Report, 29/3/17; col. 624.]


Does he still stand by that statement and will he join me in calling on the BBC to withdraw this disgraceful consultation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The BBC is doing exactly what it agreed when the settlement was put in place in 2015. We agreed at that time to provide a continuous licence fee, increasing by inflation, for five years. That had never been done before. We agreed to close the iPlayer loophole, which was what it wanted. In return, the BBC agreed to take on this concession. However, we have been clear that we expect the BBC to continue with this important concession. It was agreed by the BBC, Parliament and the Government.

Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made elsewhere. He was present for part of the debate on artificial intelligence on Monday. On reflection, it is a bit surprising that the Government were not able to accelerate the announcement of this new body. It would have helped a lot in that debate. No doubt the tyranny of the grid is to blame again, but many of us would have felt the benefit had we known, not least, that the membership of the board had been enhanced by those Members of your Lordships’ House already referred to.

To go back in history a bit, the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation came out of amendments we proposed during the passage of the Data Protection Bill, but it was built on excellent work by the Royal Society and others. We should pay tribute to the groundwork that led to today’s announcement. Those amendments had a lot of support from around the House and would have gone into the Bill had we been able to push them further, but we could not get them within the bounds of the Bill’s framing. We should say clearly that the model we had in mind then was the independent Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. In preparing the thinking in this new area of advanced technology and data processing and protection, one needed a carefully balanced body that could regulate in the context of difficult ethical issues raised by research and development.

I will now ask a number of questions about the body itself, and I hope that the Minister will respond, in writing later if not now. The body was originally intended to be an independent statutory body, but it is not because no powers have yet been established. What is the progress on that? The reports I have read suggest that that is still an objective of the Government, although they are making a virtue of the fact that it is an advisory committee in the interim period. In some senses, they will probably be judging its success, which is a bit worrying given that the whole benefit would be that it was independent of government, long-term and able to look without fear or favour at the big issues. If it is an advisory committee of the department, how independent will it be in practice? Is funding secured? Can it spend what it needs to get the research and advice it needs? How much of the original thinking about the HFEA remains? As an advisory committee, can it request information? One problem is the difficulty of extracting information from the behemoths that populate the international information society.

The press release rightly describes the membership as “stellar”. Given the names already mentioned here, I think we should recognise that. I confess that my application was weeded out very early in the game. This was unfortunate, because I would have been delighted to be part of that. Having seen the full list and heard why they were chosen, it is clear that the right decisions have been reached and I bear no malice to those responsible—honest. If the membership question comes up later, I am still around.

In the absence of the new centre starting up, we have only two or three areas of activity. We have a statement as a result of the consultations that took place. It talks about the focuses being to provide clear guidance and regulation and to lead debate about how data can be used in the future. But there are still some problems that need to be resolved, and I will be interested to hear the Minister’s comments. The AI report we discussed at length in a very good debate on Monday, when there were notable speeches from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford and the noble Lords, Lord Reid and Lord Browne, shows the range of issues that are going to be up for discussion. These are very abstruse areas of intellectual activity such as ethics and the nature of machines—whether they are responsible for their actions and, if so, how any redress can be obtained. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, posed questions about intelligent weapons and what controls must be placed on them. It is a very stretching agenda. All we know is that issues currently in the list include data trusts, algorithms and consumer experiences. I do not think there will be a shortage of those. Can the Minister explain what the process will be? I gather an overall strategy document will be revealed.

There are some concerns about the balance between advice and regulatory action. I think the plan would be for advice to be offered to government and regulatory action to be taken by existing or other bodies. Could we have confirmation of that? There is a question about the balance between ethics and innovation. Clearly, innovations are difficult to support if they raise big ethical issues too quickly; they often need to be tested over time and analysed. It would be useful if there were a way forward on that. Of course, there is the whole question of how the Government intend to treat public data, its use and value for money, and the extent to which it will be available.

Lastly, the new centre, which I wish extremely well, enters a rather crowded space with the Information Commissioner’s Officer, Ofcom and the CMA, all of which have statutory functions in this area, but perhaps I may counsel that also to come are the Alan Turing Institute, which is now up and running, and the Open Data Institute. Therefore, there will be a need for some time for this whole process to settle down and for leadership from the Government on how it will work.

The responses to the consultation showed a clear public wish for consistency and coherence, and I hope that in that process there will be room for consultation. I do not wish the new body to be a proselytiser for data or indeed for artificial intelligence, but there is a difference between proselytising and being in an explanatory mode, reassuring people and explaining to them the benefits as well as the risks of this new technology. The centre needs to be public facing and fully engaged in that process, and I wish it well.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. He was missed in the debate on Monday. I have had the benefit of reading the Government’s response to the consultation on the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. I share the enthusiasm for the centre’s creation, as did the Select Committee, and, now, for the clarification of the centre’s role, which will be very important in ensuring public trust in artificial intelligence. I am also enthusiastic about the appointments—described, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, as “stellar” in the Government’s own press release. In particular, I congratulate Members of this House and especially the noble Baroness, Lady Rock, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford, who contributed so much to our AI Select Committee. I am sure that both will keep the flame of our conclusions alive. I am delighted that we will also see a full strategy for the centre emerging early next year.

I too have a few questions for the Minister and I suspect that, in view of the number asked by me and by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, he will much prefer to write. Essentially, many of them relate to the relations between the very crowded landscape of regulatory bodies and the government departments involved.

Of course¸ the centre is an interim body. It will eventually be statutory but, as an independent body, where will the accountability lie? To which government department or body will it be accountable? Will it produce its own ethics framework for adoption across a wide range of sectors? Will it advocate such a framework internationally, and through what channels and institutions? Who will advise the Department of Health and Social Care and the NHS on the use of health data in AI applications? Will it be the centre or the ICO, or indeed both? Will the study of bias, which has been announced by the centre, explore the development of audit mechanisms to identify and minimise bias in algorithms?

How will the centre carry out its function of advising the private sector on best practice, such as ethics codes and advisory boards? What links will there be with the Competition and Markets Authority over the question of data monopolies, which I know the Government and the CMA are both conscious of? In their consideration of data trust, will the government Office for Artificial Intelligence, which I see will be the responsible body, also look at the benefits of and incentives for hubs of all things? These are beginning to emerge as a very important way of protecting private data.

What links will there be with other government departments in giving advice on the application of AI and the use of datasets? The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to lethal autonomous weapons, which emerged as a major issue in our debate on Monday. What kind of regular contact will there be with government departments—in particular, with the Ministry of Defence? One of the big concerns of the Select Committee was: what formal mechanisms for co-ordinating policy and action between the Office for Artificial Intelligence, the AI Council, the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation and the ICO will there be? That needs to be resolved.

Finally, the centre will have a major role in all the above in its new studies of bias and micro-targeting, and therefore the big question is: will it be adequately resourced? What will its budget be? In the debate on Monday, I said that we need to ensure that we maintain the momentum in developing our national strategy, and this requires government to will the means.

Social Media Services

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 12th November 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to (1) impose a statutory duty of care upon large providers of social media services within the United Kingdom in respect of the users or members of those services; and (2) establish a regulator to enforce such a duty.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, in some senses this short debate today is a continuation of good and important discussions we had during the Digital Economy Act 2017 and the Data Protection Act 2018—the same stars, perhaps, a smaller audience and a much smaller scale, but nevertheless the points may be similar. In particular, the debate that I hope we shall have tonight builds on concerns about the approach being taken under the Digital Economy Act to require age verification for access to commercial pornography; it picks up on the pioneering work led by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, during the Data Protection Act 2018, requiring all internet providers to have age-appropriate systems in place, and it relates to discussions we had in the same Bill about the possibility of introducing a personal copyright for data and the question of whether individuals could be data controllers of their own data—issues which I hope will be picked up by the new Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation.

The three areas I want to concentrate on tonight are: first, who is responsible in government for this whole area of policy and what is the current timetable? Secondly, what is the ambition? Is it a charter, a voluntary code or primary legislation? What is it? Thirdly, I want to use this debate to suggest that the Government should legislate to place a duty of care on social media companies, enforced by a trusted regulator and underpinned by direct responsibility and regulations, to protect people from reasonably foreseeable harms when they are using social media services.

On the first point of who is in charge, we welcomed the Government’s May 2018 response to the Green Paper consultation, announcing a White Paper in the near future and setting out plans for legislation that will cover:

“the full range of online harms, including both harmful and illegal content”.

That is a quote from the Statement. I read, in an interview in the Daily Telegraph, that the Home Secretary is now promising new laws to regulate social media firms, saying:

“We will therefore be bringing some form of legislation which we will set out in a White Paper on online harms in the winter”.


I take that to be a way of saying “soon”—hopefully, the curious phrase “some form of legislation” is something the Minister can unpick when he gets up to respond later this evening. Having said that, legislating to ban illegal content is one thing, and difficult enough, but defining, let alone banning, what is “harmful” is brave and will be leading us into subjective decisions about material which is always going to be problematic.

The previous DCMS Secretary of State was fond of referencing an idea for a digital charter. That has gone a bit quiet recently. Can the Minister give us an update? What is it? How is it to be established? Will it have the effect of primary legislation? Is this the legislation the Home Secretary is referring to in his gnomic Statement? Will there be powers to fine and ban?

Who else is prowling around in this jungle? The new Secretary of State for Health is calling for action on online harms, focusing on the mental health impacts of social media on young people and announcing, at the time of his party conference, that he had asked the CMO to draw up screen-time guidelines. Artificial intelligence is also a concern here, so BEIS has an interest. What happens in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland? It is a crowded field. In a sense, all this activity is good, but it leaves open the question of who is leading on this? The Home Office does not normally share responsibilities willingly, and joint legislation is not a model that generally works well in Whitehall. Can the Minister confirm whether DCMS is still in the lead and what is the current timetable? Would spring be a fairer assessment than winter?

Secondly, what is the ambition? Over the last few months, more evidence has emerged from authoritative sources of the harms caused by social media. Ofcom and the ICO jointly published some research on the harms experienced by adult internet users, with 45% indicating that they have experienced some form of online harm.

Last week we heard in the other place the Information Commissioner’s startling evidence to the Select Committee about the Cambridge Analytica scandal, and there is more to come on that. Only 10 days ago, the Law Commission published a very interesting scoping review of the current law on abusive and offensive online communications, confirming that there were weaknesses in the current regime. It is doing more work on the nature of some of the offending behaviour in the online environment and the extra degrees of harm that it can cause. It is also looking at the effective targeting of serious harm and criminality, and at eliminating overlapping offences and the ambiguity of terminology concerning what is or is not “obscene”. The NSPCC has recently highlighted what it calls the “failure” of self-regulation in this area. The Children’s Commissioner has also called for action, saying:

“The rights enjoyed by children offline must be extended online”.


One problem here is clearly evidence, which is vital to drafting effective legislation, but it is not easy to pin down evidence on fast-moving, innovative services like the internet. The software of social media services changes every week and perhaps more often—every day—and it will be difficult to isolate long-term impacts from particular services through “gold standard” randomised control trials. The potential range is very wide. In their response to the Green Paper consultation, the Government said:

“Potential areas where the Government will legislate include the social media code of practice, transparency reporting and online advertising”.


They also referred to,

“platform liability for illegal content; responding to the … Law Commission Review of abusive communications online; and working with the Information Commissioner’s Office on the age-appropriate design code”.

They added that a White Paper would also allow them to incorporate,

“new, emerging issues, including disinformation and mass misuse of personal data and work to tackle online harms”.

That all sounds great but questions remain. Will this result in a statutory code and regulations? Will there be penalties for non-compliance or breaches? If so, will they be on the right scale, and by whom will they be administered? Will it be Ofcom or a new regulator? And what about companies based outside the UK?

We come back to the basic question of how we regulate an innovative and fast-moving sector, largely headquartered outside the UK, and what tools we have available. If it is true that the technologies in use today represent only 10% of what is likely to be introduced in the next decade or so, how do we future-proof our regulatory structures? This is where the idea of a duty of care comes in. Following public health scares in the 1990s, the Health and Safety Executive adopted a rigorous version of the “precautionary principle”, requiring a joint approach to as yet unknown risks and placing the companies offering such services in the forefront of efforts to limit the harms caused by products and services that threaten public health and safety, but always working in partnership with the regulator.

We might find that this principle is already in play in this sector. In response to a Written Question that I put down earlier this year, the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, confirmed that a duty of care contained in the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 applies to artificial intelligence deployed in the workplace. Therefore, robotic machines are caught by the Act.

That principled approach is now being advocated by a growing number of organisations and individuals—indeed, it was mentioned by the Home Secretary in the interview I have already quoted. The Carnegie UK Trust has suggested that the way to do this is for primary legislation to place a duty of care on the social media companies to prevent reasonably foreseeable harm befalling their customers or users. This builds in a degree of future-proofing and encompasses the remarkable breadth of activity that one finds on social networks.

This approach is based on a long history of legislation protecting against harms: the Occupiers’ Liability Act 1957, which is still in force today; the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, which contains three duties of care; and the Health and Safety Executive, the regulator, which has stood the test of time. It is interesting that both regimes defend the public interest in areas that might at first glance be considered remote from the public interest—private land and commercial workplaces—but in truth they should serve as an example to us in regulating, in the public interest, these newly powerful technologies. After all, social networks are environments built in code by private companies for what are often super-profits. Everything that happens in those environments either is governed by code that the company has provided or takes place under the terms and conditions that the companies set.

Imposing a duty of care on social media companies might produce a mutual advantage in practice. A duty of care is not about total risk reduction, stifling all innovation; it is about a company having a legal responsibility to have a clear grasp of what risks are inherent in its current and future products and services, and then taking the right steps proportionate to the severity of those risks: highly risky activity with high-potential harms requires strong action; low-risk activity, far less or even none. The companies that can show they are taking reasonable actions to mitigate the harm that their services can cause will have a competitive advantage. The Ofcom/ICO study shows that there is considerable concern among users about what the social media companies are doing.

We all care about red tape. Bad regulation is to be avoided, not least because it represents cost to the economy. However, good regulation is an investment: a company investing in actions to prevent reasonably foreseeable harms is following the most economically efficient route to reducing those harms. Otherwise the costs fall on society. If it is right to operate a “polluter pays” principle, whereby the costs of pollution prevention and control measures are met by the polluter, why is that principle not equally valid in the social media companies?

Finally, the choice of regulator will be important. Under this proposal, the regulator does not merely fine or sanction but plays an active role to help companies help themselves. The regulator should gather and broker best practice across the industry. We probably need to look at best practice in financial services and environmental regulation, and even at the Bribery Act 2010 and the strong penalties under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. We should also consider whether personal liability should attach to the directors and executives of the companies that are guilty of transgression.

In conclusion, I put it to the Minister that we now have enough credible evidence of harms emerging to invoke the well-established precautionary principle, and that the answer to many of the problems we can see in this fast-developing sector, many of which are raised by the Green Paper, may lie in moving to a joint system of risk-based regulation for social media companies operating in the UK, backed by a powerful regulator. We look forward to the Government’s White Paper, as well as to the answers to my initial questions, and to debating these issues further.

Brexit: Media Hubs

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We have already said that, subject to negotiation, we would like to remain part of Creative Europe and that any deal done with it will be guaranteed until the end of the multi-annual financial framework. We agree that the new Creative Europe is useful for the UK, not so much in terms of money, but in terms of partnership and the way we can co-operate with creative producers in Europe.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, we are talking about an industry which represents 5% of our GDP and has huge potential to grow and be at the forefront of our economic recovery. It seems strange that the Government are taking a laissez-faire approach to this, if I read the Minister correctly. Country of origin means that any broadcaster licensed in this country can operate without further regulation across the whole of Europe. Will he specifically reassure the House that that issue alone will be at the top of the agenda when it comes to negotiating the special deal that he talked about?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It will not be country of origin in the way we have it now, because we will not be part of the audio-visual and media services directive. However, we would certainly like to retain the principle that we can broadcast to the EU. There are reasons why that is of mutual benefit. We have the best and most well-resourced regulator in the whole of Europe; we lead broadcasting regulation. On average, 45% of channels in EU countries come from abroad. It is therefore essential for them to have a regulator they can have confidence in.

Breaching of Limits on Ticket Sales Regulations 2018

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Glasgow (LD)]

My Lords, it is very important that the draft regulations laid before the House on 26 April should now be approved, and therefore I enthusiastically support this Motion. Bots in particular must be abolished. They were a method by which digital touts, which is what I call them, could acquire tickets for sporting and cultural events for the secondary ticketing market and resell them at greatly inflated prices. My concern, though, is that these unprincipled secondary market touts are clever and cunning. They will continue to find ways of trying to circumvent these regulations. It is therefore important that the National Trading Standards authority or another body like that is given more powers to monitor the regulations and, when necessary, prosecute offenders.

However, bots and the secondary ticketing market are not the only reasons why West End theatre prices for popular shows have risen so steeply over the past 10 years. Of the 40 or so main West End theatres, more than three-quarters of them are owned by just four companies. It is the theatres, not the producers of the shows, that fix the ticket prices, arrange special deals, determine the publicity and control the ticket agents, of which in each case they will be one themselves. It seems that this small number of theatre companies, acting as a sort of unofficial cartel, are in a position to dominate the London theatre market. Does the Minister agree that there should be an investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority, or again some similar organisation, into this very unsatisfactory situation?

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I join those who have welcomed this statutory instrument. We could say that progress on the part of the Government has been somewhat slower than perhaps we would have wished, but nevertheless we are surely getting there. That is largely due to the fact that we are working in a cross-party way and in a spirit of collegiate support on the issues that are worrying us in this area.

In your Lordships’ House, this effort is led by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, who is in his place and has spoken out. However, it would be right at this point to recognise the work of the all-party group which he talked about, because it has indeed been good at keeping up pressure on the Government on this issue. We also miss, yet again, the spirit and enthusiasm of Baroness Heyhoe Flint, who sadly is no longer with us but who was definitely part of the team that includes on our side my noble friends Lady Hayter and Lord Collins, who have managed to keep this issue in front of your Lordships’ House and have got us to where we are today.

Having said that, others have mentioned the problem of resourcing the teams which will have to make sure that the new regulatory process works in practice, and that means trading standards in particular. It is not, as others have said, just a question of resources; it is also a question of matching the technical skills of those who are operating computers to try to cheat ordinary customers out of the ability to buy tickets as they would wish. I am sure that the Minister will have some words to say about that, but I would be grateful if he could make sure that we understand better how the resourcing element of this is going to be met.

Finally, we are still left with a couple of rough ends, and I do not think that we should consider this to be the end of the game. I have yet to have properly established what is a ticket; the legal definition still eludes those who have been working on this issue. It can either be a licence to attend a performance or it can be a piece of real property which, with justification, can be sold on to others. I think that it is a bit of both, and it would be helpful if we could make sure that we put into statute a proper definition of what a ticket is. Once we have that, the rest of the issues which are raised by this whole question of touting and how it operates will be erased.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to add my voice to those who have spoken, some of whom have of course carried the burden of this subject for quite a long time. A few years ago, I wanted to see David Tennant performing in “Richard II” at the Barbican. Because of the activities of the organisation already named, I was obliged to pay hundreds of pounds for a ticket, greatly inflated from the face value, in order to get a rather poor seat. I have never told my wife about this expenditure and now that I have made my confession on the Floor of the House, I hope that she will not read Hansard. However, I have been a victim of touts and it was only the grandeur of the performance that rescued the whole thing in my mind.

It is of course scandalous that these things take place. It is perhaps unfortunate that trading standards people, who are accustomed to dealing with infractions of this nature and are empowered to do so, are given less than helpful advice when it comes to pursuing matters in this area. The police have all the powers necessary to bring cases and all the rest of it. It seems important that the police are not burdened with what, for them, will be a marginal or lesser activity. They face so many serious things these days. Perhaps we can look at that in due course.

Since I have mentioned drama and quoted Shakespeare, perhaps I can quote the words of the Minister back to him. He said in an earlier debate that,

“with the new offence on the statute book, the Government will work with industry to enforce it. An offence is only worth having if criminal acts are reported. We have industry groups in place that are now willing and able to take action in partnership with our law enforcement agencies”.—[Official Report, 29/3/17; col. 660.]

We are promised constant review of the outcomes of these regulations once we have approved them. Of course that is good, but are we convinced that if we wait a statutory amount of time—a year or two—to monitor what is happening, the police might not feel that this was their priority and we will have rather little to report at that time, and that we cannot anticipate already the likely shortcomings in the way this matter will be implemented?

My children are less concerned with David Tennant at the Barbican than they are with the Arctic Monkeys. Of course, their recent re-emergence to the public saw a prime example of this kind of difficulty. Indeed, it might well be described for all of us as our “Favourite Worst Nightmare”, since that was the name of one of their albums. One commentator at that time said that it is easier to buy a gun in the United States than an Arctic Monkeys ticket in the United Kingdom. Or, as another one said, it is,

“easier to get a reservation at Tranquility Base Hotel & Casino”,

than one of their tickets. That is another one of their albums, course.

It is well enough to play around with words; it is the ordinary public who suffer from these dangerous and profiteering pirateering activities. It is time that we recognise this as something that has to be addressed, which we do and have done. Indeed, looking at some briefing from Ticketmaster, I see for just how long it has been active in the field trying to control these sorts of activities. It is time that we find ourselves not only expressing concern and making provision, but giving power to the people best able to do something about this so that, when we get our promised report back in due course, we will be able to see first, to answer the Minister’s worries, people brought to justice and, secondly, treated righteously before the law.

All of us can express our very real concerns about this aspect of our national life. All of us want to see something done about it. We just hope that this statutory instrument will not only add something that looks right on paper, but achieve some of the objectives we mentioned today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not think they lack powers with regard to bots that are based in this country, but the noble Lord’s point, I believe, was that the actual ticket-purchasing software that is based abroad is in the same position. The offence applies to bots if the activity takes place. It is the enforcement that is more difficult. The offence applies as long as it is to buy tickets for events in the UK.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

The Minister mentioned earlier that the answer may lie in following the money, which has worked with regard to gambling and child protection. Does he think that this is now a real possibility in this area? Clearly, if these bots are operating from abroad and the instructions are from extraterritorial areas that we cannot reach, the right thing to do is to follow the money.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I have to be careful—I may not have been as careful as I should have been—to distinguish between the bots themselves and the ticketing platforms. Obviously, it is more difficult with regard to the bots, which are, in effect, ticket-purchasing software that could be anywhere, on any computer. I do not think I said that we were doing this. I am just highlighting the fact that following the money is important. I do know that payment providers such as Visa and PayPal do not want to deal with organisations or people who are committing an offence.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, asked about the effectiveness of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, which creates an offence,

“for an unauthorised person to … sell a ticket for a designated football match”.

I am not an expert and I will have to follow this up but I think the problem is that that was enacted following the recommendation in Lord Justice Taylor’s final report on the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Lord Justice Taylor was specific that the offence be limited to football because of its unique public order risk. I am not sure it is right to try to address other issues through that. It was for public order reasons more than ticket resale and pricing reasons. But I am happy to look at that and get the noble Lord more detail from someone who understands the law on this.