Ford in Bridgend

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I have immense respect for him but, on the move to Mexico, I rely not on the Statement but on what Ford has said. It made it quite clear that this decision would have been taken independently of Brexit. That is not to say that Brexit is not an important issue for the economy, but that debate is different from the one on this particular decision. We would do well to listen to Ford.

The noble Lord makes a significant and fair point about aid packages and assistance, which I am sure the task force will begin to look at next week in its first meeting. In the meantime, consultation is ongoing so there is time to look at this issue, although I accept that there is a degree of urgency. That will be one of the early things that Ken Skates, as the Welsh Government Minister, and the Secretary of State will want to look at with the unions and others when the task force meets.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register as the president of the Jaguar Drivers’ Club in Britain. Ford is simply joining the queue after Jaguar Land Rover and Honda in closing plants. Although the Minister is absolutely right to emphasise that the transfer to electric technology is causing this issue—we do not deny that—the number of motor vehicles produced in this country has fallen by 45% in one year. That is horrific. Uncertainty over our future trading relationship with the rest of our big market in Europe is causing this issue. These companies are all internationally owned but no international investor will consider the major investment in new technologies that we need as long as this uncertainty exists. The Minister needs to take that message back to his colleagues.

Borderlands

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I can understand my noble friend’s hyperbole, but I think “infinitely” more expensive might be slightly overdoing it. Nevertheless, she is absolutely right that this, like all growth deals, must benefit all parts of the area. This is a very rural area; there are issues on farming which are being pursued, as well as on sustainability, tourism and energy, which will benefit the whole region. That, I think, will be the essence of its success.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

Will the Minister welcome the fact that Carlisle airport has announced that it is going to resume scheduled services? That will help the whole region.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Yes, I certainly give an unqualified welcome to that. The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is very good news, which we have just heard publicly this week.

Feed-in Tariffs (Amendment) (No. 3) Order 2015

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, I blundered into this debate on 19 January during the Committee stage of the Scotland Bill. At that stage, I was making a very simple point, which is that hydropower is much overlooked in comparison with solar power and wind power. That was the only point I was making. However, in the course of his reply to that debate, the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, the Scottish Minister in charge of the Bill, gave some figures that I did not think to challenge. No sooner had the ink dried on Lords Hansard then coals of fire were heaped upon my head for not having challenged those figures. I did not know any better and I do not think that he knew any better, because he was quoting figures given to him by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. It is worth stopping for a moment to consider them.

I congratulate my noble friend on raising this matter and the excellent speech that she made, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, on his speech from the Front Bench. I do not think we should get into a long argument about whether we should do something about this or just wring our hands, which appears to be something that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, feels strongly about.

I am concerned about the drift of this Government away from the commitments that they made at the time of the election, posing as a green Government. My new party leader has a very nice way of putting this. The other day he said:

“The prime minister has not so much hugged a Husky as led it behind the coal shed, shot it in the head and told his energy secretary it is gone to live on a farm”.

That is quite a good way of putting the about-turn of policy that we are experiencing.

To return to the point that I was making, the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, argued on 19 January that the tariff injections proposed for hydropower would result in something like 500 new projects over the next three and a quarter years. I do not see how that can happen now that the Government have themselves reduced the tariff for the small hydropower schemes. Those are the ones that I am talking about; the little ones that I have been to see in the Scottish borders, not the massive public hydropower schemes. I was very glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Sanderson of Bowden, supported me on that occasion because he and I live in an area where there is no shortage of water. There is sometimes a shortage of sun and occasionally there is no wind, but there is plenty of water and the water flows at a time when peak demand is so strong during the winter. That was the point that I was making.

Yet I have in my hand the consultation tariffs that the Government propose, and for small hydro schemes in the 100 kilowatt to 500 kilowatt bracket the Government’s own consultation document suggests a tariff of 9.78p. The actual tariff that they are now proposing is 6.14p. I therefore do not see how they will get 500 schemes with that reduction. Will the Government enter into a serious discussion with the British Hydropower Association to see what is wrong with the figures that they have given and how they can possibly justify the proposal for 500 new hydropower projects with this severely reduced tariff? A reduction of some 37% makes all the difference in the world and I am very glad that my noble friend mentioned hydropower in her speech.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, for many years in the House of Commons I was the vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Renewable and Sustainable Energy Group because I happen to believe that renewable energy has a hugely important part to play in the future energy provision for this country. I hope that most noble Lords would agree with that. But it is only a part, and that is where the noble Viscount suggested that there is a contrast between nuclear, fracking and renewable energy. They all have a part to play in making a good policy to provide energy for this country.

I have been a loyal Government supporter and I was particularly pleased when the Prime Minister said some years ago that he would create the greenest Government ever. I hope very much that the Minister will bear that in mind. He rightly said to the noble Viscount that FITs were very high. They were high for a reason: in order to attract investment, which they have done, and indeed to attract landowners—possibly such as my noble friend who has also spoken—to put up wind generators, for instance, and it has worked. I should say that I am quite interested in putting one up myself on my farm in Leicestershire, but I do not yet have an interest to declare. However, it is right that these very expensive feed-in tariffs should be brought down. They are extremely lucrative and they need to come down. As the costs of putting up solar, wind or indeed hydro energy plant come down, so too should the feed-in tariffs.

I know that the Government have reviewed their initial plans in this area, but I would say gently to my noble friend the Minister that, as I am sure he is aware, we should not as a Government kill the golden goose that has led to a resurgence of renewable energy in this country, which is all to the good. In quite rightly reducing unnecessary government expenditure, or perhaps one should say government largesse, we need to be careful that we do not end the wind and solar energy industries in this country or stop the generation of renewable energy which began so well under the coalition Government and up to now.

Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, as I listened to this debate, I had one of those “Doctor Who” moments. You go into the TARDIS and it looks like a describable area, but it becomes bigger and bigger—each time someone speaks, you go into another room. There is a narrower issue about Clause 66 and that is fairness. I am one of those who regret that the level of subsidy for wind turbines has been as big as it has, and I am keen to get it closed as soon as possible. I am with the Government on that, but they have moved the deadline from March 2017 to March 2016 and then only given way to some extent. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, said that those who had expended significant amounts of money when the deadline was March 2017 had a reasonable or legitimate expectation. If the legislation goes through as it is now, will there be the possibility of judicial review for those who have spent considerable amounts of money but whose legitimate expectations were not fulfilled because the Government changed their mind? I would like reassurance that there is no legal problem in moving the goal posts when people have expended money under the old drawing-out of the pitch.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, and the right reverend Prelate have focused on the issue of fairness. My only excuse for intervening briefly in this debate is that I have been asked to open a new centre for research and development of water power in my old constituency on Friday. I had never applied my mind to the issues of renewable energy until now. In the Bill, I find reference to wind power and solar power and I know that the Government have been encouraging these. For example, the wind scheme on Gigha was a great community effort which was crucial to the restoration of that island’s economy. It is the suddenness of this measure that we are objecting to. My question, which I ask quite simply out of ignorance, is this: why do we devote money to sun energy and wind energy but not water energy? I cannot understand that. The old mills in my constituency used to be powered by water. This week, I visited two small schemes on the River Ettrick, which make their small contribution, as do these other sources of energy. It seems to me that we should be encouraging the development of water power, particularly in Scotland where we have plenty of rain. When there is no wind, there is no generation; when there is no sun at night, there is no generation; but water continues all the time, especially in the winter when the demand for energy is so high.

Northern Ireland: Abortion

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I think it is important that the UK Government observe the devolution settlement. However, I think it is also important, as the noble Baroness mentioned, that there is consideration of the situation in Northern Ireland. I draw the attention of noble Lords to the comments of David Ford, Justice Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, who has made it very clear that this issue needs to be reconsidered. Indeed, the Health Minister in Northern Ireland has made similar comments about the current legislation and its applicability in this case. However, it is not an issue for the UK Government.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

Is my noble friend aware that some 14 years ago, when we were legislating on setting up the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, there was serious debate in both Houses about where responsibility for administering the law on abortion should lie? The decision was taken—in my view, quite rightly—that the law should be uniform throughout the UK, so why should we leave Northern Ireland with an 1861 piece of legislation?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord is, of course, very much more aware of the background to this situation than I am. However, the current situation is as the previous Government intended it to be—abortion law in Northern Ireland is left to the Northern Ireland Assembly. It would not be acceptable—I am sure that it would not be acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland—for us to seek to change that unilaterally. I also draw the attention of noble Lords to the fact that when the Northern Ireland Assembly discussed new guidelines on abortion in 2007 they were unanimously rejected by Assembly Members.

David Livingstone Bicentenary

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I sought in my original Answer to indicate that the Scotland Office has already taken one particular initiative. Scotland Office officials and Ministers, including my right honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, have been in contact with the Department for International Development. We are also engaged with other Whitehall departments, very much taking on board the point that the noble Lord made. He mentioned his visit to Malawi. It may well be appropriate to place on the record that the Scotland Malawi Partnership is very much the product of a concordat between the Government of Malawi and the Scottish Government of whom he was the First Minister. It is a reflection of his personal commitment to Malawi.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Will my noble and learned friend consider whether Her Majesty’s Government, or indeed the Scottish Government, might make some contribution to the refurbishment of David Livingstone’s house in Zanzibar? I am in touch with friends in the devolved Government in Zanzibar and I am sure that a small contribution might enable them to provide some matching funds. At the moment the house is full of rather wilted press cuttings. Given the importance of that island in the slave trade which David Livingstone helped to abolish, it would be good if something could be done now.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I understand that the house to which my noble friend refers was where David Livingstone stayed in Tanzania, in Zanzibar, prior to the start of his final expedition in 1866. There are no current plans for the United Kingdom Government to provide a contribution for the renovation of the building but I am aware of my noble friend’s interests in this matter and I will certainly ensure that his comments are drawn to the attention of the relevant department.

Scotland Bill

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Lords Chamber

We used to have a system in which the Secretary of State for Scotland was able to see the Prime Minister three or four times a week and be involved in all key committees. I do not seek to re-engage in that whole debate, but we have lost influence. We have had the advantage, in a way that the Germans do not understand with regard to Greece and other countries in the European Union, of having a system of fiscal transfers within one unitary state. This is unravelling it, and it is a great mistake. At the very least, there should be a warning on the tin and my noble and learned friend should accept my amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I suspect that the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Forsyth are a substitute for what would in the House of Commons be a debate on Third Reading of the Bill, which we do not have in this place. I have four things to say about the Bill’s passage.

First, I echo strongly what the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, said a few moments ago about the significance of the amendments that we have debated in this House against the relatively skimpy progress that the Bill made through the other place. He made a serious point, although he did so with his typical good humour. It demonstrates again the value of this House as a revising Chamber that has done very serious work on the Bill.

Secondly, I express my thanks and, as I am sure that the whole House agrees, I pay tribute to the Advocate-General, my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for the skilful, attentive and good-humoured way in which he has piloted this Bill through all its stages. He has been a model of how a Minister should react and I am very grateful to him. My mind goes back to the days when I stopped him being the prospective Liberal candidate for Dumfries to make way for an SDP candidate. He was slightly cross at the time but I think it was the best thing I ever did for him as he has done extremely well since then. I thank him warmly for his role as Minister on this Bill.

Thirdly, picking up a point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth, it is interesting that the SNP Government have given their consent to the passage of the Bill despite earlier having called it everything from a poisoned pill to a dog’s breakfast. In other words, they have suddenly realised, late in the day perhaps, that this UK Government—London Government as they like to say—are doing something constructive and useful for the people of Scotland, and not just in the area of criminal law, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, referred, but in the area of taxation. Although I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Forsyth for the assiduous way in which he has tabled a whole series of amendments and enlivened our debates, I fundamentally disagree with him in his pessimistic view of the role of the Bill, shortly to be Act. First, it sets the requirements of the Scottish Parliament not only to spend money on services for the people of Scotland but to take some responsibility for raising that money. We should support that objective.

My noble friend may have a legitimate point in suggesting that the tax base is too narrow but, as I have said on previous occasions, I am quite sure that this Bill is not the end of the story. There will probably have to be other devolution measures on taxation matters in the future, but this is a substantial first step. This issue will not just affect the Parliament. In my view, it should affect the whole level of political debate in Scotland because there will not only be an obligation on each of the political parties to spell out to the electorate what they would like to do in education, health, employment and all the other things for which they are responsible, but they will also have to say how they will raise the money and how much they will ask the citizens to pay.

Far from being pessimistic about this, as my noble friend is, I am optimistic about it. I believe that it will enliven and should certainly deepen political discourse. For all those reasons I welcome the Bill and I look forward to it being an Act of Parliament very shortly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

What about the amendment?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Only if you believe everything they say in the Scottish Parliament. It is perfectly clear what has happened here. One of the extraordinary things about this whole issue of devolution is that for a long time one of my allies in opposition to devolution was the First Minister, Alex Salmond. He refused to join the constitutional convention, and when he went back to Scotland to be a—I am sorry, I nearly said something that I would have regretted—to take a leading role in the SNP in the Scottish Parliament, having stood on a platform in 1998 with Donald Dewar to campaign for the Scottish Parliament, he denounced devolution as a complete disaster. Now he goes around presenting himself as the champion of those people who want devo-max. When you look around, there does not seem to be anybody who wants devo-max, or who can at least explain what it is.

I have to say to my noble friend that the nationalists have been completely opportunistic about devolution. In the beginning, they thought, like the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, that it would kill nationalism stone dead. When they realised what my noble friend Lord Lang and others, including our previous Prime Minister, Sir John Major, were warning—that it would be a slippery slope that would lead to their objectives—they changed their position in order to get it. Then they flip-flopped. At each point where further concessions have been made, they have put them in their pocket, which is why they voted unanimously, and moved the agenda on. What the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, said, is absolutely right: the Bill is completely out of time. It is as relevant as the Daleks to youngsters nowadays—although I believe they are making a comeback. I have no doubt that devolution in another Bill will be coming back in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, says that this has all been part of some great process. I was devastated by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Maxton. The fact is that this Bill’s genesis was a deal put together by the unionist parties after, very bravely, Wendy Alexander, who was then the leader of the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament said, “We ought to have a referendum on independence and Alex Salmond needs to put his case to the Scottish people”. She was right then, but the rug was pulled out from under her by Gordon Brown as Prime Minister because he had an attack of the jitters that the referendum might go the wrong way. As a result, the Labour Party was left with no policy, so it said, “We’ll set up a commission”—does this sound familiar?—“because we are not sure what we’re going to do next”. It set up a commission and, very foolishly, the Conservative Party and other parties joined in a commission to rescue it.

That is the genesis of the Calman commission. It was to come up with something that would stop Alex Salmond winning the subsequent election, which everybody accepted—did they not?—was impossible because the rules of election to the Scottish Parliament had been devised by the very clever Donald Dewar and other clever people to ensure that no party would ever be able to get an overall majority. Just like the notion that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead, that turned out to be another myth. The result is that we are now faced with a nationalist majority committed to an independence referendum. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, is absolutely right: that is the issue now. The Bill has been left stranded as an orphan that is not even discussed in the Scottish media.

Although the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and I disagree on the objectives here, he is absolutely right when he criticises the fact that the Prime Minister went up to Scotland and spelt out in a brilliant speech the case for the union but then went on to say, “Of course, after you have voted against independence, we will discuss more devolution”, without saying what that would be. That was a huge error because of course, once again, Alex Salmond picked that up, put it in his pocket and now, as far as he is concerned, the debate is about what extra devolution we are going to get. At some point, those of us who are unionists have to stop sliding down the slippery slope, define what the issues are and give the people of Scotland an opportunity to determine them. No doubt that will happen in due course.

I just wanted to say—

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Your amendment?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

For a man who made a whole speech on my amendment without even mentioning it, I think the noble Lord is skating on thin ice—not for the first time, I may add. My speech in support of my amendment was in perfect order, but I can see that I am beginning to irritate the noble Lord, which is the last thing I want to do.

I say one thing in tribute to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, who is the Kate Adie of the House of Lords, and my noble friend Lord Sassoon, who is, sadly, not here—I thought he enjoyed our debates on the Scotland Bill. I guess that I have probably not made their life particularly easy. I think that the whole point of this place is that it challenges legislation. That is increasingly important. The Bill illustrates that. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, this Bill sailed through the House of Commons without any proper discussion whatever because it was guillotined. In the manifesto of the Conservative bit of the Government—I know that we have put a lot of emphasis on our manifesto promises—we promised that would end the automatic guillotining of Bills in the other place. We have not done so, as exemplified by this Bill.

I should also like to say how much I appreciate the work of officials in the Treasury and the Scottish Office. I do not think that they have had a particularly easy time but, having produced a Bill such as this, I do not think that they deserved a particularly easy time. This House has shown its worth in respect of this Bill.

At the end of all those hours of work, nothing has changed other than the wretched speed limits. So what have we achieved? I hope that in considering the implementation of the Bill, not least on the very unusual tax-raising powers, my noble and learned friend will at least think about how to avoid some of the pitfalls, which I believe were seen on all sides of the House. I have very great pleasure in begging leave to withdraw my amendment.

Scotland Bill

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth has done the House a service in raising this issue this morning, but I am deeply pleased that he is not going to press the amendment, because it is seriously defective. The idea that we should wait until nine months after the last government department has produced a Green Paper on this subject fills me with dread. I am in favour of a referendum as soon as possible. This would have the effect of delaying it indefinitely—indeed, possibly beyond the date that even Mr Salmond hopes to achieve. I know that the noble Lord is not going to press it, so I will not—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The point of the nine months was that I would like this information to be brought forward as soon as possible. Nine months seemed a reasonable period in which people could have an informed campaign. The Green Papers might be published, but you then need that information to be used as part of the campaign and for people to absorb it. It requires some time.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I do not dispute that. I am querying the length of time that it would take for each UK government department to produce its Green Paper. That is my point.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Oh, I see.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

The nine months starts after that. I hope that my noble friend is not going to press his amendment.

In the second section, it is of course the case that the single question should relate to the future of Scotland in, or out of, the United Kingdom. You cannot assume that it would be in the United Kingdom.

Leaving that to one side, the kind of information that we would need is what the effect would be, to take one example, on the financial situation in Scotland if it were independent. There seem to be three options: Scotland is in the eurozone, which used to be SNP policy; or it is dependent on the Bank of England, in which case it is not proper independence; or else we have a Scottish currency like the old Irish punt. These options need to be spelt out. That is the kind of information for which my noble friend is pressing, and I hope that when my noble and learned friend comes to reply he will be able to give us some indication of the kind of work that is going on on these issues.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the general thrust of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in so far as it encourages the preparation and dissemination of objective and credible information about the effects of separation on all aspects of public policy and, by implication, the benefits of the union to the people of Scotland. I resist the temptation to add to the growing list of areas of public policy for which this momentous decision will have potentially detrimental implications. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, listed a significant and impressive number of them, which were then augmented by the intervention of my noble and learned friend Lord McCluskey and, indeed, by my noble friend Lady Liddell.

My own view is that there is hardly any area of public policy in Scotland that will not be affected in some way by the decision, should the people of Scotland decide to separate from the rest of the United Kingdom, which I am confident—and certainly sincerely hope— they will not. It is inarguable that this is the most important decision that the people of Scotland will ever, collectively, have to make. It cannot be made unless it is informed by facts: not assertions, not massaged statistics, but facts. On the analogy that if you want to leave a club you can leave it but, if you want to stay and change the rules, then everyone who is still a member of the club has a view, the rest of the people of the United Kingdom are also entitled to know what the facts are.

I agree with the general thrust of the debate and the implication of the noble Lord’s opening remarks that the Bill is not the appropriate place for this debate. Whether or not the points that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, made in relation to delay and the wording are correct, I do not think we will try to impose this amendment into the Bill. That is the right thing to do. If there is to be no statutory obligation on Secretaries of State to provide the necessary information to inform this debate then, at the very least, there needs to be a clear undertaking from the Government that they will place an obligation on Secretaries of State to put that information in the public domain. They should draw on the broader debate that is taking place here about what mechanism or mechanisms should be deployed or created in order to disseminate this information and to give it the stamp of credibility and objectivity that will be necessary to inform the debate.

I would be concerned if there were to be a proliferation of initiatives. I accept that it is entirely appropriate and correct that the Select Committee on Economic Affairs, of which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is a member, should address its attention to this important decision. It is at the heart of political life in the United Kingdom at the moment and there would be no better work for the committee to do. I expect that in the other place the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs will carry out similar work and that other organisations, such as academic institutions, will wish to address themselves to this work in the coming period.

In Scotland, a well resourced institution which can bring together this work and give it a genuine stamp of credible objectivity is necessary. Many people in the professions in Scotland—including the legal profession, academics, economists, people who have served in the Armed Forces, people who understand and have made significant contributions to international affairs over the years, many of whom sit in this House—could make a contribution to the debate.

Those of us who are trying to put together the infrastructure that will inform the debate in Scotland ought to apply our minds to the creation of a genuinely credible and independent institution operating out of Scotland—perhaps an academic institution—which could be a receptacle in which all the information could be deposited, verified independently and disseminated. We should clearly invite the nationalists to contribute to that discussion so that what comes out of it has that stamp of credibility and objectivity, and not the taint of a political objective.

Scotland Bill

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood, for spelling out how we got into what I can only call an unholy mess. Before we turn to the amendments, let me say that I fully support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, said at the start of this debate. In fact, I marvelled at his moderation. It is appalling that we are attempting—I hope we are not attempting—to deal with this on Report in the time that has been allotted at present. We have not only got the debate in the dinner hour, but we also have a Statement coming up which will take another 40 minutes out of the time. It is intolerable. It is the kind of thing that, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth hinted, we used to object to in the Commons. Scottish business of very serious import is being debated here—this is only one of many issues we are supposed to be discussing in the next few hours—and it should not be dealt with in this rushed way. I hope we will be told, when the Whip—or whoever deals with this on the Front Bench—proposes the break for the dinner hour, what is going to happen, and when we are going to sit to give this proper consideration.

I find myself in some difficulty because when I read Amendment 1A, in conjunction with the letter I received from the vice-chancellor of Heriot-Watt University, I sympathised with the universities possibly finding themselves being bereft of revenue they were expecting. That is why I warmly support Amendment 59, which the noble Lord has just spoken to, and to which four distinguished Members of this House have put their names.

By giving at least a year to all the authorities—the funding councils, the two Governments—they should be able to sort this out. The anomaly is intolerable, and we cannot allow this simply to drift on. Here is our legislative chance to put it right, and we should do that by accepting Amendment 59.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. It is no secret that I am most unhappy with the fact that we are continuing with this Bill when it has been so comprehensively overtaken by events. There is a sense that “We’ve started so we’ll finish”. Partly because it has had the gestation period of an elephant, we seem to be debating it at a time when the whole constitutional discussion in Scotland has moved on.

I regret to say that it seems that the business managers of the House share my view of the Bill. I can think of no other reason for the way that it has been treated, and indeed the way that those noble Members who have taken an intense interest in it have been treated, in the course of its process. When I first went to the other place I complained that Scottish legislation was usually done after everyone else had gone home to bed. It seems as though that procedure is now being copied in this House.

However, we can redeem the situation by getting one issue up and live in the debate. There are no two ways about it: what has happened with tuition fees for students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland is so unfair as to shame all of us Scots who have benefited from a Scottish education. Perhaps it needs those of us who have a clear and distinct Scottish accent to say so.

I have not been lobbied by vice-chancellors. That could be because I was a Scottish Education Minister, and maybe they are feart. However, even if I had been I would still take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, that it is important to seize an opportunity now to resolve this matter. There is a sound educational argument for ensuring that we continue to have the maximum number possible of English, Welsh and Northern Irish students in our universities. One of the secrets of a good Scottish education is the nature of the diversity of the experience. That is being denied.

I will make one other point briefly, because I am conscious of the time. Rich English students can continue to come to Scottish universities, either because their parents can afford to pay the fees or because they own an island or a hunting estate or a lovely Georgian house in Edinburgh and so can easily establish residency. Someone who, like me, is a bus driver’s daughter, frankly has no chance whatever.

I will make an appeal to the noble and learned Lord, whom I do not blame for one minute for the difficulties that have been encountered in passing this Bill—if ever there was a Minister who ended up with the short straw, it is the noble and learned Lord. I appeal to him to take this back, having listened to the representations made tonight and in other places, and seek a resolution to this manifest unfairness that—I repeat—shames Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

What seems absolutely certain, however, is that we have allowed the differential fee to persist for over 10 years.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

It has got worse.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

That is the point: it has got worse. It has got worse now after 11 years and the answer appears to be that we will impose a solution by amending the Scotland Bill because we have the Scotland Bill before us. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, shakes his head. I am sure that is not what he intends but that is what we are doing. From what I can gather having listened carefully to what noble Lords have contributed, those who were involved in decision-making and those who have been party to the process, we are doing this without any attempt to try to get what a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and others, have called for, which is a discussion across the United Kingdom to see if we can resolve this issue. Everyone’s briefing appears to be that we have been put into this position because of the activities of others and these are the consequences.

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[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In doing so, may I tell the House that we shall not be having the Statement and suggest that Report should begin again not earlier than 10.25 pm?

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I would like to protest at what is being proposed. It is quite ridiculous that on a Bill of this importance we should be asked to come back. We now have the debate of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, which will take us to nearly 10.30 pm. It cannot seriously be proposed that we should continue from 10.30 pm until we get to Amendment 26, as it says on the Order Paper, from 10.30 pm. I gave notice that I was going to object when this Motion was moved. I gave notice several hours ago that we wanted to hear from the Government about what they proposed to do with the rest of Report.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, something has clearly gone wrong in the transmission because I was not aware that my noble friend was going to make that comment. I know that all those taking part in debate on the Scotland Bill consider it important, as does the rest of the House that may be listening to it. It is a usual channels agreement that the Bill will be concluded by the end of Wednesday evening. We discussed this earlier and that commitment remains. There will be a discussion later among the usual channels about what progress should be made tonight. I am aware that we have just taken two hours on one amendment. That was an amendment very dear to the hearts of those who took part in it, but the overall time allocated to Report was agreed and the intention is to keep to the agreement that Report should be concluded at the end of the Wednesday sitting. As I say, we will shortly be discussing in the usual channels what the last amendment to be considered tonight shall be.

Scotland Bill

Lord Steel of Aikwood Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

I do not know whether I am grateful to the noble Lord for that, because I had a very clever ending to this part of my contribution and he has prevented me moving towards it as quickly as I wanted to.

I have never been able to do this before in a debate: I intend to quote the Clerk of the Parliaments. There is a Library note on the issue of financial privilege; it goes into this issue in some detail, and only our Parliament could produce something like this that was so interesting and esoteric. Paragraph 18 of this report says:

“In conclusion, it may be worth making two points … First, until the Commons asserts its privilege, the Lords is fully entitled to debate and agree to amendments with privilege implications”.

It seems, and I am grateful for this, that this is the complete answer to the noble Lord’s amendment. It would be ill advised of this House, given that it has that power, to seek for the first time to try to control it with legislation at its own hand. I cannot, as I am sure the noble Lord will be devastated to hear, support his amendment in these circumstances.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth has a technical point about taxation through Orders in Council, but I want to come back to this basic point regarding the Bill: Section 28 talks in bold type about the power to add new devolved taxes. That is something to which my noble friend is opposed; he does not want the Scottish Parliament to have the power to create more taxes, but I do. I think I am right in saying that the Calman commission also wanted to give the Scottish Parliament the power to add more taxes. Going back even to the referendum that we had, I know that my noble friend keeps saying that there is a difference between varying taxes and adding new ones, but that is too subtle a distinction.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

There are three members of the Calman commission here. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Selkirk of Douglas will be able to confirm this. I think the Calman commission said that the Scottish Parliament should have the power to add specified taxes. I am not against the Bill allowing for specified taxes; I am against it being open-ended and subject to that procedure.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

That is where we differ. I am not against the Scottish Parliament having such powers. I want the Bill to be stronger than it is. We are on a constant road on devolution. I still believe that we want to get to the point where the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for raising the money that it spends on devolved matters. The Bill does not go that far but at least it moves in that direction.

I give the Committee a specific example. My noble friend keeps talking about a window tax. Nobody in their right mind is contemplating introducing a window tax in Scotland; not even Mr Salmond has suggested that. However, we used to have a dog licence fee in this country. It was abolished some years ago because it reduced to 37.5p. It was collected by local authorities and it cost so much to collect that it was not worth having.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

That was not a tax.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My noble friend mutters that it was not a tax. However, I am saying that it could be a tax. There is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not decide, as a matter of good policy, that ownership of dogs, which can be a confounded nuisance in cities and the countryside, should be subject to tax. That is a perfectly sensible proposition and there is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not decide that it is one way of adding to its tax take and finances. I am totally opposed to the amendment that my noble friend is pursuing. He is making a good case by trying to undermine the basic purpose of the Bill, while I want the Bill to go further than it does.

[Lord Lyell]

My noble friend made a powerful speech; indeed, I am half way to agreeing with him. However, our noble friend the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury referred 36 times to this extraordinary Scottish dance, the close connection; perhaps my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench can tell us whether it is a Canadian barn dance, a military two-step or a three-step. That close connection refers particularly to individual payers of income tax. In describing this close connection, my noble friend admitted more than 30 times that the individual payers who are classified as Scottish taxpayers would be nothing to do with this Bill. They could easily be English or other UK taxpayers. I hope my noble friend will take that on board. You can look at new taxes but, for goodness’ sake, take care over who will be responsible. If they are not Scottish taxpayers or Scottish voters, we will be in ever deeper water.

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I hope that my noble friend Lord Steel is right, because I can think of nothing that would sweep Alex Salmond from power more quickly than announcing that he was going to put a tax on dogs—

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

And caravans.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

And caravans. I do not want to detain the House, but I know that my noble friend Lord Steel got into some difficulty with dogs when he gave the former President Ceausescu a puppy dog following a state visit in 1974. My noble friend gave one of his puppies to Ceausescu. When they had gone shooting, the birds were recovered by children, so my noble friend sent one of his fine Labradors to Ceausescu. Many years later, when the regime collapsed and the press arrived, my noble friend received a call from an outraged journalist who asked, “Did you give this dreadful dictator a dog?”. My noble friend explained that he had done so as a result of a state visit and that it had been a courteous thing to do. The journalist said, “Did you realise that this dog had its own coach, its own servants and a whole palace to live in?”. I say to my noble friend that dogs, politics and tax are best not mixed.

My noble friend suggested a tax on plastic bags. The mind boggles as to how large firms such as Tesco and others would operate if there were different taxes on plastic bags north and south of the border.

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Moved by

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

93: Before Clause 10, line 14, at end insert “and the Scottish Parliament.
( ) Such a referendum must be administered by the Electoral Commission.”

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I think this amendment has been overtaken by events. The Minister has made it clear that the referendum will be administered by the Electoral Commission and, therefore, there is no need for me to labour the point. That is very important. The First Minister of Scotland still has to recognise one thing: as he has a particular objective in mind in holding the referendum, he is not the right person to declare what the question should be. Any member of the public would accept that that proposition is correct. You cannot say, “The people must determine this, but I will tell them how to determine it”. In my Amendment 93 to the noble Lord’s Amendment 91, I have suggested that it should be by agreement and that the Scottish Parliament should be consulted and be party to how the question is drafted.

Equally, I disagree with the noble Lord—although I think a moment ago he almost resiled from certain wording—that we should lay down the question. I missed the earlier debate for which I apologise, but the noble Lord, Lord St John, and I had a longstanding appointment with the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, Mr Morgan Tsvangirai. If you think we have problems in our coalition, you should hear his. I missed the substantive debate on the referendum earlier.

I think it is also important that the people of Scotland are beginning to get scunnered—if I may use a good Scottish word—by the endless argument from politicians, academics and economists about the process and what might or might not happen if Scotland became independent. This cannot go on for another three years. It is ridiculous.

Therefore the part of the amendment that I support is the suggestion that the time should be now. If not immediately, then certainly as soon as possible, we should get this issue out of the way. As soon as we get clear of the independence referendum, we can start, as the Prime Minister has said, serious discussion about how we can add to the devolution package, and that is very sensible.

We have got the Electoral Commission in the frame, so there is no need to press that. Choosing the question should also be a matter for the Electoral Commission, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, who has made this point before, that rather than having a yes or no and putting some people in a negative position, there should be two propositions from which people choose either to remain in the United Kingdom or to go independent.

If that is done, and done quickly, then we can get this issue out of the way and the Scottish Government should concentrate on what they were elected to do, which is to deal with the issues affecting Scotland at the moment: bad housing, unemployment, and the need for more investment in industry. These are the things people want. They do not want three years of argument about a referendum. They want to see a Government tackling the issues, both in Scotland by the Scottish Government, and in the United Kingdom by the UK Government. The sooner we get back to that realistic level of politics, the better.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, my Amendment 94E takes what my noble friend Lord Steel said a little bit further, and asks that the Electoral Commission set the question. It is quite clear that nothing the UK Government propose is going to be accepted by the Scottish Government, and nothing that the Scottish Government propose will be accepted by the UK Government.

Why not cut the politicians out? Let us ask the Electoral Commission not only to set the questions but to arrange all the counting, transferring the number of votes into a proper result that is based, exactly the same way the referendums were in 1979 and 1997, on each local authority area, rather than just Scotland. We would know that there would be a clear question—or questions, if we go down the route proposed by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell—but also that each area voted and how they voted, and that it was a fair process.

Taken out of the hands of politicians, it will not only be more acceptable to the people of Scotland, but in view of our earlier discussions, I think it would be more acceptable to the rest of the UK, who would feel that an independent authority is doing this rather than politicians.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

While my noble and learned friend has a drink, is this phrase of allowing the Electoral Commission to have “oversight” not weasel wording? Surely the Electoral Commission should be responsible for the overall conduct of the referendum campaign.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Including the question.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, including the question. I notice that in the Scottish Government’s consultation paper, which was then spun as involving the Electoral Commission, it was invited in as a kind of veneer of respectability. The Electoral Commission has to be the regulator. Is that use of “oversight” by my noble and learned friend weasel wording or does it mean what we all want it to mean?

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I hear what my noble friend says, but I ask him to reflect him on two points. First, it is my understanding that the Electoral Commission would not necessarily welcome that. Secondly, with regard to the point I was making about the franchise: if one seeks to do something different, what are the rules regarding the relationship between the Electoral Commission and the question under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000? If you try to do something different for a Scottish independence referendum, you could immediately open yourself up to a charge of trying to rig or manipulate it. The advantages of consistency in this area are important.

I am told that the Electoral Commission has not, and does not wish to, set a question as its role is properly to review the question and publish that review, which is important. I do not countenance any situation where the commission would not be engaged, nor where its view on a question would not be made public.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 93.

Amendment 93 (to Amendment 91) withdrawn.