Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the former president or patron of the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, Sir Nicholas Soames.

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Michael Gove)]

I am very keen to see rare breeds survive, which is why I suspect the leader—ex-leader, rather—of the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), is bobbing.

More to the point, tomorrow is the last day on which the permanent secretary at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will be in her post. Clare Moriarty is an outstanding public servant. She is going on to become permanent secretary at the Department for Exiting the European Union. On behalf of my ministerial team, and I think Members across the House, I ask us all to record our thanks to an outstanding public servant for everything she has done to ensure that the environment, rural affairs and food have been at the heart of Government policy making and have been carried forward with the high standards of professionalism that we expect of a civil servant.

[Sir Nicholas Soames]

I thank my right hon. Friend and join him in paying tribute to an obviously very distinguished civil servant. One has to wonder what she has done to earn such a poisoned chalice.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that of all the landscapes in Britain, one of the most greatly cherished are the uplands? Does he agree that, inevitably, there is a good deal of concern and anxiety at this time as the Brexit policies unfold? Will he agree to receive a delegation from the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust and the Moorland Association to discuss with him some of the more pressing issues that are causing serious concern in an already hard-pressed community?

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. Our uplands are one of our environmental glories, and it is critical that those who live and work in the uplands and those who, for a variety of reasons, feel that their way of life and some of the economic activities that sustain communities in the uplands might be under threat, have the reassurance of knowing that this Government are on their side. I would be delighted to convene such a meeting.

UK’s Withdrawal from the European Union

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

This is the first time I have spoken in any of the Brexit debates, although I have a way of making my opinion well known to the public elsewhere. I am really sick of the way the Government have gone about this. They are now saying, “It is my way or the highway.” The highway is rocky and bad. They are asking hon. Members to walk down a road that has no surface, and we cannot see the end of it. They use the cover-all of saying, “We care about the national interest because we have got this really bad plan and you are not walking down it.”—as if we do not all care about the national interest.

Conservative Members do not own the national interest. It is not the same as nationalism. We all care about the national interest very deeply. I do not know how the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs could stand in front of us today and tell us how our food prices would go up, and how it would be awful for agriculture, and then not move every fibre of his being to end it.

The right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) talked about revoking, but let us be serious. If we cared less about being elected and more about the national interest, we would be having a deeply serious conversation about making this stop and talking about the things that people where I live talk about. Others have touched on the will of the people. We in this House are terrified of the people in this country. Why are we so terrified of them? People in this place say: “17.4 million think this because I think this and I am going to lay my opinion on to them”. We have nothing to be scared of because we have a responsibility to inspire people out there and to lead them somewhere. What has been missing from the very beginning of this horrid and torrid affair in British politics has been any semblance of the leadership and courage needed to take the country somewhere.

The reasons people voted leave are plentiful, and I will not pretend they all agree with me, but I am not scared of the people who voted leave in my area. I believe in parliamentary democracy, and if they do not like what I say, they can get rid of me. I am not frightened of that prospect. I only wish the Prime Minister had not been frightened of the people sitting behind her. She is certainly terrified of the people in the country. In the event of a no deal, people where I live will face not only the same levels of poverty and the same unstable jobs market, but much, much worse; they will be unable to afford food, which they can precious little afford now, and they will look up and say, “I thought there was going to be a golden era”, and then they will be angry. That is what people in here should be scared of. We should not be scared of the country.

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making a powerful speech, but, having studied this matter carefully, like she has, I take the view that the Prime Minister is respectful of those people, not frightened of them.

[Jess Phillips]

The right hon. Gentleman knows the Prime Minister considerably better than I do. If she had ever tried to talk to me about any of this, or anyone else with a seat like mine, perhaps we could have had a much better conversation in here. I do not know her, but to me she looks like a rabbit in the headlights. She looks unwilling to state the real facts and to say that this is really bad for the country. We hear it in briefings and in bars in Brussels instead of directly from a woman who should have the courage to say that she is terrified of all the things outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). She should have the courage to say, “I’m terrified of the implications for security, for food prices and for trade, and you know what? You might not like it, and I might lose my role as the Prime Minister, but I am going to do what is best for you”. That is what courage and leadership are.

I respect deeply the people where I live, but I notice how selective the ERG are when it comes to caring about their needs: they want them when they back up their idea of northern town leave voters, but not so much when they need to give them welfare.

Flooding: Ribble Valley

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Evans]

I hope that many lessons will be learned. Any funding that is made available ought to be claimed—I remember the big argument about claiming European flood money, but we all pay into that, so we are only getting our own money back—but it took ages before we did that, which was a huge mistake. We should have known about it from the very beginning. I was told about how complicated it was to claim the money, so that must be sorted out. When one is paying into an insurance fund, claiming our own money back should not involve so much officer time and the filling in of so many pages. Many lessons need to be learned by the council, and by government more generally, to avoid adding to a tragedy through action or inaction.

I also want to praise the refuse collectors. One would not expect to see them the day after Boxing day. There are few sadder pictures in my mind than seeing refuse people backing up into a street on the day after Boxing day and loading Christmas trees into the back of their vehicle because people were clearing their whole houses. It was a very sad picture, never mind that those people were already under stress. There was one lady whose husband was dying, and in addition to all her problems she was having to clear out her house. Some people are still not back in their home a year on. Big questions have to be asked about the resilience of some properties. The Minister has produced her own report on the flooding, and I hope a lot will be learned from it.

I also praise councillors Terry Hill, Joyce Holgate, Albert Atkinson, Ged Mirfin and others. Councillors came from all over the area. Even if their areas were not flooded, they came to give assistance. I also praise Sir James Bevan and the then Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), who turned up the day after Boxing day—I could not believe it, but there they were, walking through the village in wellington boots. I was able to show them some of the damage, and Sir James looked into the River Calder and could see the damage for himself. A lot of the damage is still there. One would have thought that one of the farmhouses over at the other end would not have been touched, but it was way underwater.

Some insurance companies were prompt, and others were not—their answerphones were switched on and saying, “We are on holiday. Please get in touch on 28 or 29 December.” When such colossal flooding is affecting so many thousands of people, one would have thought that all the insurance companies would be there to help.

Andrew Ronnan created the Whalley and Billington flood action group by drawing on the expertise that can be found in any large village and its surrounding areas, including civil engineers and people with knowledge of flood prevention. The group has regular meetings in order to liaise with the lead flood authority—Lancashire County Council—Ribble Valley Borough Council and the Environment Agency on the long-term plan. We have to do that, because these once-in-a-lifetime events are now happening quite regularly. Action must be taken against anything preventable that can lead to the misery I saw that day. Some of that action relates to the river, and other action relates to the housing that is being built, particularly in Whalley, on a rather large scale.

It might be useful if I talk about that housing. One section, Lawson Rise, is being developed in part by Redrow. There should be drainage ponds in the scheme to allow for water attenuation. Well, Redrow has been merrily building the houses, but the ponds simply have not happened. Redrow itself said that the ponds needed to happen, and they have not happened. I understand that there may be problems with the design and with where the ponds should go, but the reality is that Redrow is now in breach of the conditions set by the local authority. The people at Redrow still think it is okay to build the houses, sell them and get people moving in. Well, it is not. They have a responsibility to the people who are going to live on that estate and to the people who may be affected by the building of those houses and other houses that will be built on the same plot. It is their responsibility to ensure that all of the area is properly drained and that the water that runs off is retained. How dare they not take the action that they should at this moment in time? How dare they think it is okay to carry on building those houses without putting in the proper attenuation?

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making an incredibly important and powerful speech. He has mentioned a building company. I want him to know that all over the country, many colleagues on both side of the House have the same experience with building companies. They bang on until the cows come home about their corporate social responsibility, being good neighbours and all that, but with many of them—not all, by any means—it is complete and utter tosh. They need to honour their obligations and be seen to do so.

[Mr Evans]

I can only agree with my right hon. Friend. Indeed, one of Redrow’s reports talks about the company being a shining-light member of the considerate construction scheme. Steve Morgan, the chairman, talks about Redrow being in great shape and says that he is looking forward to

“another year of significant progress”.

I have a good idea: some of that significant progress can go into the attenuation ponds and the other things that need to be happening.

Another plot of land, which one could see from the road, famously had a sign saying that it was a

“development site with permission for 39 dwellings”,

but that sign could be just seen above the water. The sign was famous and did the rounds on social media. The sign was there before a single house was built. It is not a good idea, and we really should not put any houses on an area susceptible to that sort of flooding, but what sort of attenuation would that site need to make sure that that water did not flood the houses and was not then pushed to flood other houses?

I say to Redrow, in respect of the particular site I mention, that notice has been served by Ribble Valley Borough Council that Redrow is in breach of the conditions that were agreed to. So when are the people at Redrow going to do it—when will they provide the attenuation that they said they would? Everybody is waiting. They have a social and moral responsibility to do it. I know, as my right hon. Friend will know, that these companies have some great experts working for them and they know some tricks. They know that there are certain things they can do to delay taking the action they need to take. They have very expensive lawyers, who are doubtless listening to every word I am saying, but I say: get on with it! We do not want to see any delay or deferment. They know what they need to do and they need to do it now. That applies not just to Redrow, but to every other developer who is building houses and has conditions put upon them. They should not see that as burdensome; they should see it as playing their part in a community, so that they are not making other people’s lives a misery one or two miles down the road. They have a responsibility, and they should do it.

Driven Grouse Shooting

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

It is a great privilege to be called to speak in this debate about a matter that touches on issues of great importance to this House: biodiversity; the uplands, their fragile economy and the people who live there and make their way of life there; and questions surrounding some of the most magnificent, special wild places in the whole of this beautiful country. May I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double) on the measured and careful way in which he introduced the debate?

I should declare an interest in that I am chairman of the all-party parliamentary game and wildlife conservation group and I am a keen game shot. I have had the great joy of spending a good deal of my time in the uplands ever since I was a child. The heather moorland of the sort maintained by grouse shooting is one of the rarest habitat types and enjoys some of the very highest conservation designations. These moors were not designated sites of special scientific interest in spite of being grouse moors but precisely because they were grouse moors. These wonderful places exist only because generations of owners have refused endless blandishments and huge grants from successive Governments to drain them, fence them, plant them with conifers, carpet them with sheep and cover them with roads and tracks.

[Sir Henry Bellingham]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Nicholas Soames]

I will press on—I am afraid I have not got any time.

The owners did that because they love these wild places and the occasional chance to shoot grouse. Driven grouse shooting touches the livelihoods of thousands of people in the uplands: hoteliers, publicans, agricultural workers, shopkeepers, retired folk, children in the holidays and, of course, gamekeepers and their families. What I particularly want to ask today is: what would happen if driven grouse shooting were to be banned and grouse moor management were to cease?

If anyone wants to see in real life what that would look like, go to Wales, which in many places is an ornithological desert. Indeed, on one 5,000-acre estate in north Yorkshire, there are more golden plover than in the whole of Wales. This May, I walked on a well keepered and managed grouse moor that practises enlightened standards of stewardship. I heard curlew, grouse, golden plover, oystercatchers, skylarks, lapwings and the wonderful grey hill partridge. It was truly a miraculous and unforgettable cacophony of sound; people can see and hear for themselves the beneficial effect of legal predator control.

I pay tribute to the work of the gamekeepers in the uplands, whose contribution to the environment and to natural biodiversity in the hills we ignore at our peril. They are responsible for the control of foxes, crows, magpies and stoats, all of which eat the eggs of ground nesting birds. They are the unsung heroes of conservation, and those who take an interest in the matter without knowing much about it need to remember that man has been dealing with predators for centuries. Other colleagues will deal at length with the question of burning, but it is true that if you cease burning, you get long, degenerate, rank heather, which is unsightly and seriously inhibits the habitat for the very species that we want to encourage. Substantial sums of private and public money have gone into the eradication of bracken and thousands of acres have been controlled. Stop driven grouse shooting and all that work will halt; we will be left with old, rank heather, acres of bracken and, inevitably, an ornithological desert.

Driven grouse shooting plays a major part in sustaining communities on the edge of and in the middle of the moors—something that cannot lightly be dismissed. I am very taken with the views of Mr Avery when he was director of conservation at the RSPB; I understand that he started the e-petition to ban grouse shooting:

“The RSPB and other moorland owners and managers agree about many things—we care deeply about the countryside and are angered by the declines in blackgrouse and wader populations; we agree that grouse moors have prevented even greater losses of heather to intensive grazing and conifers”.

He continued:

“Grouse moors undoubtedly provide good habitat for species in addition to grouse. Some birds, particularly breeding waders, do well on grouse moors. The package of management, which includes the killing, legally, of certain predator species, benefits a range of other bird species. On the subject of predators the RSPB does not oppose legal predator control and recognises that it is necessary if the objective is to produce a shootable surplus of gamebirds.”

And so say all of us.

Properly conducted grouse shooting is a force for good in the uplands. It would be a disaster for the landscape, biodiversity and many small but locally important rural economies were driven grouse shooting to be banned.

Flooding

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Elizabeth Truss]

The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change helped to secure an historic deal in Paris in December precisely to address that issue.

[Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend considered asking the Army, and particularly the Royal Engineers, to intervene, given that their skills—the sappers’ skills—with bridging rivers is legendary, and they could easily and quickly replace the lost bridges?

[Elizabeth Truss]

The Royal Engineers are involved, and they have been involved in both Cumbria and Yorkshire, looking at finding possible solutions for those bridges.

Badger Cull

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government ultimately have a duty of care to the farmers and to their stock?

[Jim Shannon]

I do accept that; it is a very key issue for us all. That is why I am speaking about the importance of looking after the farmers’ stock but also their families as well. The common key factor for all of us is the presence of badgers, which, if they carry TB, need to be controlled because the cost of farmers’ annual loss of cattle has topped £100 million. The loss of cattle has been tremendous on the UK mainland, but over in Northern Ireland as well. The right hon. Gentleman made an important point about the health of the animals, but there is also an impact on the families. Some farmers who have come to me over the years have had to have their whole herd destroyed because of TB. The impact on their financial, emotional and physical welfare is tremendous, and we cannot ignore that. Whenever we talk about the need to control badgers—not eradicate them—we must also put into the equation the impact on the farmers.

In a previous life, before I came here, I was a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and a member of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. About five years ago, we carried out an investigation and report into bovine TB in Northern Ireland. We spoke to the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and representatives from the Republic of Ireland. We also spoke to bodies from across the world, including Australia and New Zealand, which the Secretary of State mentioned in his introductory comments. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who cannot be here because he has constituency duties, chaired the Committee, on which we both served and which recommended controlling badgers. It is vital for that to be put on the record.

In the Republic of Ireland, badger control measures have resulted in a decrease of TB in cattle by almost a third, as has been mentioned. That is close to the Northern Ireland border. If the Republic can do it and it works, that is a prime example not far from the land mass of the British Isles.

In New Zealand, as the Secretary of State and others have mentioned, the most comprehensive control of badgers—not just through culling, but through other measures as well—has reduced the number of herds infected from 1,700 to 70, which is a dramatic decrease. Many methods can be used to achieve this.

Some raise the issue of scientific evidence, but such evidence exists in the Republic, New Zealand, Australia and many other countries across the world. It was clearly presented to the investigation undertaken by the Northern Ireland Assembly’s Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development in my previous job before I was elected here.

There has to be proactive control of badgers in heavily infected areas. That can reduce the level of TB in cattle. My constituents are very concerned about TB. Although there are incidences of TB in England and Wales, we want to see it eradicated in Northern Ireland as well. We want Northern Ireland and the Republic to be disease free. It will help us all, given the multi-million-pound industry: agri-food is worth £4 billion to Northern Ireland’s economy. It is important to us.

Horsemeat

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is much interest but very little time, and so far exchanges have been too long. What we require is a model of brevity, to be exemplified by Mr Nicholas Soames.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has put together one of the biggest operations of its type ever in the European Union to secure a result across the whole of the European Union? Will he acknowledge that the use of bute is grossly exaggerated? It is used, but nothing like as much as is claimed.

Environmental Protection and Green Growth

Lord Soames of Fletching Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Benyon]

I am afraid that I simply do not recognise that situation. We met Ministers from the devolved Assemblies this week, and discussed the way in which we are approaching the management of our seas and other policies, in the context of Europe but also nationally. I have worked closely with those Ministers, but I have heard none of them suggest that our parliamentary activities are limiting their ability to control their own environments.

We have also successfully defended the moratorium on commercial whaling. Many may not consider that to be a massive issue, but our constituents certainly do, and I think that the House should recognise the excellent work done by DEFRA officials. I bear the scars on my back from attending two meetings of the International Whaling Commission, and the fact that the British Government have led in making that organisation fit for the 21st century is to our credit. We have contributed £100 million to protect international forests, and the Secretary of State is working closely with Brazil to secure the best use of those funds. As we build on the wonderful achievements made in Nagoya we see real benefits, and Britain’s standing in regard to those and other issues in the international forum has been enhanced in recent months.

The Government’s economic policy objective is to achieve strong, sustainable and balanced growth that is more evenly shared across the country and between industries. The Treasury is committed to that, and has made important progress on a range of green initiatives. It has fulfilled the Government’s commitment to introducing a carbon price floor—a world first—as the basis of an innovative and economically ambitious green policy. This year’s Budget outlined the Government’s commitment to green investment, making £3 billion available for the green investment bank over the next four years. That will provide a lever for £15 billion of private investment in green technologies, a fact that was tragically missing from the speech of the hon. Member for Wakefield.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way.

[Hon. Members]

You have only just come into the Chamber!

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman has only just arrived, but it is up to the Minister to give way if he wishes to do so.

[Nicholas Soames]

I apologise to the House and to the Minister for asking to intervene when I have only just arrived. I hope that the House will forgive me. I have been at a meeting of the 1922 Committee.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he has been doing. May I ask him to cast a particular eye over the very serious environmental problem of the gross over-extraction of water from rivers in general and in particular from chalk streams, which are waters of international renown and importance in this country? Will he tell us what level of extraction he considers acceptable?

[Richard Benyon]

I have already said that we will address that in the near future in the water White Paper. We are determined to comply with directives, because that is what we all have to do, but we are also more ambitious, in that we want our aquatic environment to be restored. That legacy will be difficult to achieve, but we can achieve it. We can secure huge improvements in biodiversity and ecosystems by just making some changes. It is not easy to change abstraction when large numbers of people rely on the water in question for their daily lives, but this can be done, and it will be done under this Government.