Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Moylan

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and I congratulate him on another polished speech. It ought to be well polished—he has made it at least four times during the passage of this particular legislation. He has not said anything new; we have cantered around the same course about Avanti trains and the future of the railway system.

This is a small Bill designed to create an overall body to be responsible for running the railway system. It was an idea conceived by the party opposite.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

With respect, this Bill does not do that. If this Bill created Great British Railways, that would be another story altogether. This Bill does not create a body; it simply is the Government seizing control of existing railway companies.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

That is absolute nonsense. This Bill is designed to implement a body, as a result of an inquiry into the railway system set up by the party opposite. Indeed, that party was so impressed when in government by the Williams report that the then Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps, added his name to it. He did not actually do anything about implementing it because the backwoodsmen opposite felt it was a bit too much like nationalisation to have an overarching body responsible for the railway system.

We could have disposed of this particular amendment late at night during the course of the Committee stage of the Bill, but the noble Lord who leads for the Opposition refused to sit after 10 pm. There might have been a good reason for it—perhaps it was past the bedtime of the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, or the equivalent, but he and his party were not prepared for a proper debate on this issue, and they still are not.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, the amendment which we did not debate late at night was about the management of the railways in London; it had nothing whatever to do with what the noble Lord says. I see him giggle in the corner now; he knows he is having fun at the House’s expense.

The fact is that this Bill does not do what the noble Lord says it does. The other fact is that the Williams review did not envisage the nationalisation of train operating services in this country but rather the use of the private sector on what is referred to as a concession basis, rather than a franchise basis, the technical differences between which I shall not bore the House with now.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I am neither giggling, nor am I in a corner. I find the noble Lord’s contribution to be as specious and inaccurate as most of the contributions he has made during the course of this debate. He keeps repeating the same tedious stuff.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I start with a brief apology to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for not having signed his amendment and assure him that if he wishes to approach me in the corridors between now and Report, some sort of grubby deal can probably be done between us in that regard. My signature is readily available for the many wise things that he has said in this debate.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

If we are going to meet to discuss these future amendments, grubby deals or otherwise, better in one of the bars where the noble Lord can put his hand in his pocket.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

There is the basis of a grubby deal, I suppose, but I am sure it will be done on an equal, Dutch, shared basis.

The Minister has heard what the Committee has had to say from every corner, and he will know that his response will have left noble Lords on all sides bitterly disappointed. He has promised to combined mayoral authorities, to local authorities and to regional authorities every conceivable aspect of devolution except the right and the possibility to run their own trains, which has been done so successfully in London and, I understand although I have no personal experience of it, on Merseyside. That is now suspended; it is off the table, for a number of years at the very least, on no rational grounds at all. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, so rightly said, we need to know the final outcome now.

For all the Minister’s talk of this being a narrow and technical Bill, its effect, in combination with his letter, is to put an end to the further devolution of rail services to local and regional authorities for the foreseeable future, and that is something the Committee is clearly not willing to accept. There is a fundamental difficulty at the heart of this Bill, and that is the commitment made so fulsomely to devolution, endorsed or otherwise by Mr Williams, whose views seem to be plastic and developing and to respond differently to every telephone call he gets from the noble Lord—it is possibly getting to the point of rent-a-quote from Mr Williams. Despite all the commitments made by Mr Williams and by the Labour Party in its pre-manifesto document on rail services, there is not going to be any meaningful devolution. Those commitments are not consistent with the Government’s other commitment to the single controlling brain. It is a contradiction at the heart of the legislation.

As for the ability of local authorities to commission services, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, so rightly said, it is all a question of money. We promise it for buses, but as we said when we discussed the Statement made on buses—on that occasion too the noble Lord, Lord Snape, was very helpful in supporting what I said —it is all very well telling local authorities they can commission new bus services, but they do not have a bean to do so. It is all very well telling regional authorities they can commission more rail services, but unless we understand, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, who is going to pay for it and who is going to get the fares revenue, it is all pretty meaningless.

It seems to me that the great single brain is already suffering a serious headache and that the paracetamol of devolution may be what it needs to dilute the effects and to take the pressure off that brain. I think this is a point on which the Government are going to have to give some ground, and I certainly think it is one we will debate again when we return to the Bill on Report. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Monday 21st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

In speaking to these amendments, I say first that I thought the speech just made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, was extremely sensible and contained a great deal with which I agree. It asked a series of important questions of the Minister. I have been around just long enough to have realised that getting actual answers to questions in Committee in your Lordships’ House is a pretty remote prospect, but these questions are of such importance that the Minister might make a bit more than the normal effort to address them.

I draw attention to Amendment 49 in my name, which raises the question of minimum service levels, which the last Parliament enacted as means of ensuring continuity of some service on the railways if strike action were to take place. The Government have not said whether they intend to avail themselves of that legislation and in what circumstances, but nor have they said they are going to repeal it. Many passengers in the country at large, looking to this as a means of protecting them from the ravages of what is sometimes thought to be excessive and persistent industrial action, would expect the Government to have a clear view on when they are going to use these measures—or even if the answer to that is “never”. I hope we can get a straight answer from the Minister on that.

I turn to Amendment 18 in the name of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, which relates to an independent pay review body. That amendment or something similar was discussed in the other place when the Bill was before that House, and the Minister in fact gave some encouragement, saying that the Government would at least look at it as part of the great reform Bill coming down the tracks towards us. I would like to hear whether government thinking has developed in any way since then and if there is anything the Minister can add to it.

On the face of it, the amendment deals primarily with agreeing and setting, in a semi-binding way, the pay rates and terms and conditions for railway staff analogously to those in other parts of the public sector. After all, it is the Government’s policy that these people should now be public employees. They should come under a single employer, a single brain and a single wallet, so it would be an independent pay review body along those lines. However, my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham took the amendment in another direction as well and made an interesting point, one also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon: how are the Government going to amalgamate, smooth out or harmonise the varying terms and conditions and rates of pay that exist among the different train operating companies as currently constituted, as they bring them under this great big umbrella? Is there going to be a levelling up all round?

Will there be a cost to the public purse? The Government have claimed that the Bill involves no cost to the public purse, but it is patent that, if you employ a large number of people and end up adjusting their pay scales on the grounds of equity, and if those pay scales tend on average to be higher than before, a cost has been incurred directly as a result of the Bill and the action being taken under it. How is that cost to be dealt with? Where is it to come from? Why are the Government not being honest about the Bill involving costs of that character? This is a point we will return to, I am sure, when we come to look at other liabilities being transferred to the Government as a result of proposals in the Bill, as we will do later in this Committee. I invite the Government to think about this seriously, because these are important issues and they should be looked carefully.

Finally, and taking account to some extent of the lateness of the hour, when we started debating this group it was my intention to rise to offer some level of support to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, relating to minimum rest days. But the comprehensive and unremitting demolition of his position advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Snape, was so persuasive and irresistible that I have decided to abandon that effort.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind words. I would just refer him to the proposed new clause to be inserted by the amendment in the name of his noble friend Lord Young, which is headed “Independent body to advise on pay and terms and conditions of employment for employees of public sector companies”. I make it that, during this debate, the party opposite has proposed no fewer than seven different bodies, groups, organisations or committees—call them what you like. As the Opposition rails regularly against too much bureaucracy, I am astonished that they want to create yet another body. In the event of a pay dispute, does the noble Lord not agree that that is why, many years ago, we created the conciliation and arbitration service? Such matters are better referred to it—we are surely running out of lawyers to sit on all these bodies—rather than creating yet another bureaucratic organisation.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

In response, I say only that seven would be a fantastically tiny number compared to the number of internal boards, committees, liaison bodies and so forth that Great British Railways is likely to require to explain to itself what it is doing, before it even gets round to explaining to the public what it is up to. I regard seven as a very modest and economical number.

Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Debate between Lord Snape and Lord Moylan

Committee stage
Monday 21st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I start by apologising to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, if I caused any confusion; I will try to do better. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, back to his place from his excursion, no doubt by rail, in foreign parts. We missed him at Second Reading, but we had an excellent substitute in the shape of the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds.

I will make a preliminary remark at this stage, which I intend to save me making it on future groups of amendments. It is that we are, essentially, at least as far as the amendments tabled by Members from the Conservative Party are concerned, seeking information from the Government in relation to this Bill. If the Government are candid with us and give us the information that we are looking for, we will have achieved our objective on behalf of the public, and that will be the end of the matter.

I turn to the debate that has taken place so far. The part that has sparked me most, which I felt I had to answer, were the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Snape. First, I agree with him about what a degradation it is that passengers have become customers when, of course, they really ought to be passengers. But there is also the question of ideology, which I hope to take out of the debate that we will have in Committee today and on Wednesday.

Of course there is always an element of ideology when one talks about privatisation and nationalisation. The railways, which, I think, are 200 years old next year, have been nationalised for only about a quarter of their entire existence. We must not think that nationalisation is the natural condition of railways in this country. They flourished and grew and were developed in private hands; we should always remember that. The truth is that in 1945-46, the railways were nationalised largely because, after six years of war, they were bankrupt. There had been no investment in them during the whole of that period, and they had deteriorated. Nor was there any prospect of their making sufficient profit that private capital could have been recruited to make up that deficiency.

Whether the then Government believed in nationalisation as an ideological matter or not, if the railways were to continue running at all it was going to have to be in government hands. Parts of the system were privatised in the mid-1990s for equally practical reasons—we discussed some of them at Second Reading. One reason was to attempt to improve customer service through competition; one was to recruit private capital into the railways on a consistent basis, which the Government had never been able to provide during the whole of the time they owned the railways—not enough capital and never enough consistency because no budget went beyond 12 months—and another was to try, frankly, to break the grip of the rail unions on pay, so that the astonishing disparities that exist between, let us say, a train driver and bus driver, which are entirely due to the monopoly supply of labour by ASLEF, might be evened out.

What we discussed at Second Reading, I am perfectly happy to admit, is that on some of these fronts privatisation has been successful, and on others less so. If the Government, who have won a majority on the basis of promising to nationalise the train operating companies, wish to give the other side of it a kick and see if they can make it work on that basis, I do not personally object—at least not on ideological grounds. But the House is perfectly entitled to have its practical questions about how this will work addressed. That is what the amendments in this group and many that will come before the Committee later intend to address.

The Government claim that this is a very small Bill. On the other hand, when they talk to the public it is a huge Bill, “because we are nationalising the railways”. They are not really nationalising the railways, because to nationalise something you normally have to pay for it and this Bill is not something where they are paying out to shareholders. All they are doing is letting the franchises that exist expire and then tying their hands and preventing themselves from renewing them except in emergency circumstances. It is, as I would have said at Second Reading if I had had more time, less nationalisation and more like dismissing your chauffeur at the end of his contract and deciding to drive the car yourself. At least you knew the chauffeur had a driving licence and some experience and qualification in driving the car, but now we will have the Secretary of State—we were told at Second Reading that she prefers to be known as the passenger-in-chief—as, in effect, driver-in-chief as well. We will see how that works out.

It is a big thing when the Government talk to the public—it is nationalisation of the railways—but when they talk to noble Lords it is a very little thing. All the big things, we are told, will happen in the next Bill— the train further down the line, expected in roughly a year or 18 months. That is the Bill in which many of our questions should be addressed, we are told—we should not ask those questions now. I think we should ask many of those questions now, for two very good reasons. The first is that the Bill presents us with a measure regarded by the Government as preliminary to that very large Bill, so it has long-term consequences. The second—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—is that the Bill sets up a shadow structure that could persist in operation for four or five years or even longer because, first, it will take us a year or 18 months before we see the Bill that will make these great reforms; and, secondly, as anyone who has been involved in the railways or any other large organisation will know, implementing significant change as a result of that legislation is likely to take several further years. We will have to live with the shadow structures set up as a result of the Bill for many years, and their practical consequences deserve the most careful scrutiny.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Can I ask the Minister, sorry the shadow Minister—

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I am not quite yet the Minister, but the way the Labour Party is going, who knows?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I asked for that one, I have to say. It is mistakes being made at both ends of the Corridor recently.

Arising from what the noble Lord has just said, can I ask him to clarify two points? First, on the delay in moving on to the more detailed Bill, bearing in mind that it was 2016 when the Government he favours brought forward the proposals for Great British Railways, what were the Government doing in the eight years since then? Secondly, I have a simple question about the ideology of privatisation: if nationalisation is so bad, why was almost the first act of Governments in two world wars to nationalise the railway industry? What makes it so essential in wartime and yet it can be handed out piecemeal in peacetime?

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

If the noble Lord will forgive me, I am asking the questions in this scenario, and I do not feel I necessarily have an answer to his question about wartime. I might pass it on to the Minister, who once arranged for me to go and see deep in the bowels of Mayfair, under the former Down Street Underground station—I am sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Snape, has not been, it can be arranged for him to see it too—the wartime headquarters of the railway operations executive, including what is claimed to be, although I think with no historical foundation, a tin bath in which Churchill once took a bath. I will say no more about the war than that.

On the former question, I do not know the answer, but I would like to know. Why was it that the then Government, having published what they called the Williams-Shapps review written by Keith Williams—I think he is correct in saying that it was in 2016—and having promised a transport Bill in the King’s Speech one but last, did not come forward with the measures they thought they could offer in that regard? I do not know the answer to that, but I am willing to have a guess and it is relevant to what the Government are embarking on now and to whether they are going to meet their 12 to 18-month deadline of delivering us with this massive Bill that is going to transform the railways. My guess is that the then Government found that grappling with the intense difficulties of reforming the railway on such a large scale meant that, try as they might, they found considerable difficulty in putting together that Bill. It may be that is exactly what the Minister finds as he comes to address these difficulties. This only adds further to my point that the shadow arrangements we are setting up today could be with us for a very long time.

I come to the first amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Gascoigne. The Government say they have a purpose—they are not doing this for ideological reasons or at the behest of the trade unions—which is to improve passenger services. At Second Reading, I pointed out that in the final stage impact assessment produced by the Department for Transport, given the opportunity it had to say exactly that, it said something completely different. It said that the Bill had been

“prepared to enable swift delivery of a Government manifesto commitment”—

not to improve matters for passengers—and that was why it had not looked, as it normally would, at the alternative options that might be put forward to achieve a similar purpose. That is another reason why it is incumbent on us in this House to look in great detail at what the Government are putting before us. They are in effect asking us to buy into an article of faith. They are simply saying, “Well, it couldn’t be worse than it is at the moment”—that is simply untrue; there are problems with the railways, but they could be a great deal worse than they are at the moment—“so it is bound to be better if we take it over and run it ourselves as part of a national enterprise”. But they have not provided any evidence for that; they have simply stated, “This must be the case and you’ve got to believe us”. As I say, that is one of the reasons why our job is not to do so.