Bus Services Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, sends her apologies but following the change of date to today, she is unable to be with us. I support all the amendments in this group. My name is on the first seven and I will refer briefly to the eighth one at the end. The first six amendments all relate to Clause 9, which inserts new sections into the Transport Act 2000 to deal with enhanced partnership plans and schemes. We want local authorities and operators to take account of the needs of disabled passengers who use local bus services under these enhanced partnerships.

Clause 9 defines exactly what an EP will do: it analyses the local bus market and sets out the policies and objectives to improve the services. But disabled passengers have quite particular needs so Amendment 83A makes it clear that there must be specific policies and objectives to protect their interests under the EP. Amendment 84AA also concerns the enhanced partnership schemes and sets out in practical detail what the local transport authority and the bus operator will do to improve those services. The authority must be satisfied that the scheme will benefit all people using the services. That is why the amendment expressly requires the authority to consider the benefits for disabled people.

Amendment 89A is the key one in this group. The scheme will set out the requirements that apply to local services and new Section 138C expands on these requirements. The amendment says that there should be a requirement on operators to set up arrangements for looking after the interests of disabled people who use bus services and to help them to do so. It is intended to mirror the system of disabled people’s protection policies in the rail sector, which the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, spoke of at Second Reading, where it is a condition of their licence that operators set up and have to comply with such policies.

Amendment 90A requires the authority to provide particular facilities on a bus route and take particular measures. It says that the authority must have,

“special regard to the needs of disabled people”,

when it provides such facilities. This and all the other amendments are needed because unless we are specific all the way through, unfortunately there will be small holes through which arrangements for disabled passengers could fall.

Amendment 90B looks at the measures that either increase the use of local services or improve the standard of those services. Here again we want a very specific requirement that an authority must pay special regard to disabled people’s own experience of using a service and of the standard of that service.

Amendment 99A says that the local authority must require operators to have policies about passengers’ behaviour when the bus driver or other staff are seeking to make reasonable adjustments for a disabled passenger. This is to ensure that the driver has the powers to deal with such situations and, if need be, to direct a passenger to get off the bus. This issue arose in the Paulley appeal at the Supreme Court and the amendment is intended to clarify the issue that much of the Paulley case is about.

The original conduct regulations for bus drivers from 1990 grant a few reasons for which bus drivers can eject passengers; for example, in the event of overcrowding or a passenger causing a public nuisance. Later another section was added to the regulations, dealing specifically with disabled people. However, the duties of the bus driver included allowing the wheelchair to board only if there was an unoccupied space, and if other passengers were in that space they should,

“readily and reasonably vacate it”.

But that is as far as the regulations dictate. In the opinion of the court process, there was no legal justification for the driver turning passengers out if they refuse to move from that wheelchair space.

In 2014, the Department for Transport proposed amendments to the conduct regulations as part of its Red Tape Challenge and invited the public to comment on those amendments. This process occurred at the same time as the Paulley appeal was ruled on, so a number of comments were submitted suggesting that clarity be provided on these rules about wheelchair access. Disability Rights UK, for example, submitted a proposed amendment to the regulation that gives bus drivers the power to remove passengers, adding to the list those who,

“refuse to readily or reasonably vacate a wheelchair space”.

The department noted that a majority of the suggestions regarding conduct towards the disabled were on this subject but unfortunately, in the end, no amendment about wheelchair access made it into the updated regulations. After we talked to the Public Bill Office, the advice for the passage of this Bill was that the best thing would be to amend the Transport Act 2000 detail instead. If the amendment were agreed by the Government then parliamentary counsel could pick that up to deal with any subsequently drafted regulations.

I turn to Amendment 122, to which my name is added. It is absolutely clear, as a disabled bus passenger, when a driver or conductor, or any other official, has or has not had training. The training is extremely patchy. It is fine to require training but if there is not a consistent standard then, frankly, it is useless. In a Question earlier today—if the Committee will give me a little leeway—there was reference to the problems of passengers’ ability to get on and off trains with ramps. One train operator has decided to start calling passengers who have booked assistance if they are late. While the Minister said earlier that it is helpful if passengers book 24 hours ahead, some operators are getting quite aggressive if passengers do not turn up at the right time. I am convinced that this is a matter of individual training, which is why I am not naming the relevant train company. If there were a consistent standard of training for all staff who come into contact with disabled passengers then the experience of those passengers and those around them, who can quite easily be asked to move in a most helpful way, is absolutely transformed. I hope the Government will consider moving on this issue, which is a live one that affects passengers travelling in wheelchairs and those who have to use priority seats as well.

Finally, the focus of Amendment 126, which is at the end of this group, is on audio-visual arrangements for passengers who require them because they are either visually or audio-impaired. As I said at Second Reading, there is also an issue for those in the wheelchair space because on some buses you cannot see the visual display. If you are travelling backwards on the bus, it is almost impossible to know when you are arriving at a stop if it is the first time that you have been there. I beg to move.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point which should not be overlooked in the course of our deliberations. There is a very human problem here: drivers will quite often explain to management the difficulties they have in seeing that the spaces provided for passengers in wheelchairs is properly occupied by those passengers. There are various documented instances of parents with buggies, for example, occupying that space. Buses these days are, by and large, operated by one person, and the driver is often called upon to intervene in disputes between someone in a wheelchair and a parent with a buggy about who will occupy that space. It is easy for us to say in the course of these debates, “Of course, it’s obvious; it should be the person in the wheelchair”, but in the human context of dialogue that takes place between passengers, it is not quite that simple. I would say to the noble Baroness who has raised this matter that you should never ask a question to which you do not know the answer. I cannot provide the solution, but I can illustrate that these difficulties are taking place at present. Whether the Minister can help us out in resolving them or not, I do not know.

So far as visual aids are concerned, again it is important that we are not too prescriptive. We had a debate some years ago in your Lordships’ House about Gatwick Express trains, which were operated by a company for which I used to work. According to my memory, the issue was that the visual displays inside these trains were five-eighths of an inch smaller than they should have been. At that time, the Gatwick Express trains ran only between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport, so if you were going south, you were going to Gatwick Airport, while if you were going north, you were going to Victoria station in London. There were no intermediate stops. Despite that, at the time the then spokesperson for the Liberal Party opposed the derogation that had been proposed for these particular trains. I make this point in the context of these amendments, after all these years, to show that it is possible to be overprescriptive with these matters.

I heard from the noble Baroness who ably moved these amendments that it is sometimes impossible for the person in a wheelchair who occupies the position provided for them on that bus to see the visual display. Again, I am not quite sure how many visual displays would need to be provided on buses for that particular problem to be dealt with. Evidence about public transport is hugely anecdotal—we all have various experiences, some better than others. For what it is worth, I can offer one.

I took the 91 bus service recently from Trafalgar Square to Crouch End. I have to say that after about 40 minutes I found the audio announcements and visual display—there are both on those buses—somewhat wearying. At every stop there were the chimes and this rather well-polished voice, if I might put it that way, announced the particular stop, and said which route it was on and what the following stop was. I have to confess to your Lordships that after the first 50 or so times, I would willingly have ripped the whole apparatus apart and thrown it off at one particular stop. I relate that anecdote only because, again with the best of intentions, we sometimes overprovide these things.

I return for a moment to the Gatwick Express trains. Certain Members of your Lordships’ House felt it preferable for the trains to remain in a siding rather than trundle between Gatwick and London Victoria with a visual display which was five-eighths of an inch or whatever it was too small. I do not want to labour the point, but it is vital that we do not overprescribe.

It would be remiss of me before I sat down not to congratulate the Minister on surviving the enormous cull that appears to have taken place in Her Majesty’s Government. I am sure I speak for all of us on this side when I welcome him back, as his name is on the papers before us today. I did tell him that I would have a word with the Prime Minister on his behalf. I did not realise there were a couple of choices that I could have made there, but I welcome him back and hope we can continue the debate on this matter in the same spirit as on the previous two days.

[Baroness Brinton]

I talked about the bus conduct regulations of 1990, because they give the facility for the driver to be in control of the situation rather than for it to be an argument between a disabled passenger and another passenger, with or without a buggy. In the proposed phrase referring to drivers and passengers who,

“refuse to readily or reasonably vacate a wheelchair space”,

it is the “reasonably” which is intended to solve the problem that the noble Lord alludes to where you have a mother with a very small baby who cannot move the buggy. The problem at the moment is that the row is left between the able-bodied passenger and the disabled passenger. That is completely inappropriate.

[Lord Snape]

I well understand that; I just wonder how we can resolve it by legislation. It is easy for us in this Chamber to look at these matters dispassionately and say, “The driver is in the right” or “The passenger should know who should occupy a particular place on the bus”. I respectfully think that what the noble Baroness suggests is easier said than done on a crowded rush-hour vehicle with a driver in a cab, sealed off as most of them are these days. I understand her need for clarification, but I very much doubt that it would resolve the situation. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us; after all, that is what he is paid for.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, these are helpful and constructive amendments but, as with all amendments of this kind, they raise new issues. I am one of those who believes that you cannot get these issues right simply by rules and regulations; you have to win the battle of public commitment. It will not be easy for the driver to be as effective as he should be with the authority at his disposal unless the majority of people on the bus have a supportive attitude to what he does. If enough people are hostile, it could make it difficult for him on his own. Similarly, the bus operators need to take seriously the information displays in the bus about what the rules are. For example, in London there are arrangements for preference for disabled, elderly and frail people, but they are of course voluntary. It often strikes me that those notices are in very small print and not obvious to everyone who is travelling, particularly when the travellers may be an international group of people with language issues and so on. When the Minister responds, it will be important that he says what part the Government intend to play in ensuring the promotion of a public culture of understanding and support for those who have the front-line responsibility of making the practical arrangements work.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extremely important debate on a particularly important Bill. If one reflects just on the events of recent weeks, perhaps much can be made of the progress of the Bus Services Bill, in sometimes turbulent waters. Certainly the Bill is progressing on time—albeit that there has been a small delay because of discussions about our position on our exit from the European Union, which is understandable.

At this juncture I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Snape, in particular, for welcoming me back to the Dispatch Box. Confucius said, “We live in interesting times”—and sometimes, when reshuffles occur, in uncertain times. However, on this occasion I return to the Department for Transport as a full-time Minister. I do so as the Minister for Aviation, among other things, so I am sure that I will enjoy some interesting debates in your Lordships’ House as the Minister responsible for that portfolio.

[Lord Snape]

Let me be the first to congratulate the noble Lord. Having invited him to come to see the buses in Birmingham—he has not yet been able to take up that invitation—given his new responsibilities, I will be delighted to accompany him on one of these aeroplane trips that Ministers go on.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure there is a film about that—“Planes, Trains and Automobiles”—and I am sure we will have our own version of that. I thank the noble Lord most sincerely for his warm words. I will say one more thing before addressing the amendments. Much is sometimes said about your Lordships’ House with regard to the role we play and our revising nature. Since I joined the House well over five years ago I have always maintained that it possesses much expertise. It is important, at times when we look at the scrutiny of Bills, that we look also at the expertise we possess.

Perhaps there is also a challenge for all Front-Benchers in your Lordships’ House. I have already alluded to my portfolio responsibilities. Those who represent their respective parties in your Lordships’ House have to speak to a much wider portfolio. The challenge—or maybe it is an opportunity we all enjoy—reflected not least in this afternoon’s proceedings, is demonstrated by the fact that so far, as the Minister responsible for aviation, I have managed to answer a Question at Question Time about rail and I am now taking through the Bus Services Bill. Again, that reflects the diversity of the House of Lords.

On the amendments, I have of course had various correspondence on this important issue, including with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, who cannot be with us today. I thank in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for her customary introduction of the amendments. It is always helpful to bring these amendments to life by highlighting practical examples, which she always does, so I thank her for that. I have a great deal of sympathy with the question of how we should ensure that all passengers have the confidence to travel by bus. The amendments in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell and Lady Brinton, seek to ensure that the rights and interests of disabled passengers are fully protected when an enhanced partnership scheme is developed and subsequently operated. I assure noble Lords that I entirely agree with the sentiment of these proposals. Disabled passengers should be able to access and use bus services on the same terms as those who are not disabled.

The Equality Act 2010 includes provisions on transport infrastructure and vehicle access, and the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000 set out the accessibility requirements which apply to certain buses. Buses have to be accessible to disabled people, who must be able to travel in comfort. Among other things, they must not be discriminated against in accessing transport—and this does not mean just installing ramps and widening doorways for wheelchair users. The accessibility regulations require facilities such as low-floor boarding devices, visual contrast on step edges, handholds and handrails, priority seats and provision for passengers in wheelchairs.

From January this year, all single-deck buses designed to carry more than 22 passengers on local and scheduled routes need to be compliant with the regulations and double-deck buses will need to be compliant by January 2017. This legislation will make it unlawful for bus operators to disregard the needs of disabled people, including wheelchair users, and they will have to comply with the requirements of the accessibility regulations.

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[Lord Snape]

My Lords, I have every sympathy with this amendment, although I doubt its practicality. I do not know whether the noble Baroness who has just spoken saw the BBC “Countryfile” programme about four months ago. It was about rural bus services and was very interesting. Indeed, at Question Time I asked the Minister whether he had seen it—I do not know if he remembers—and he replied that he had better things to do on a Sunday evening than watch television, which I understood. However, all the answers to the questions that the noble Baroness has just read out from that pre-prepared speech were given over the course of that programme. The fact is that resources for local authorities to run bus services, particularly in rural areas, have been decimated by the Government. The Minister partially acknowledged that that was the fact at Question Time after this programme appeared.

My noble friend on the Front Bench talked about the impotence of local communities to provide these services. That impotence is the direct result of those reductions in local authority funding. The reductions have been country-wide but have particularly hit the rural areas that the Conservative Party professes to care about most. Those are the facts, and designating certain routes as community routes will not make any difference in restoring those services of concern. It is about money. Under the 1985 Act, the noble Baroness or anyone else can set up a bus service anywhere they like. However, people do not do so in rural areas because it is not thought possible to make a profit there. One could argue, as the noble Baroness did, that in life there are things other than profit, but most bus companies, small and large, depend on making a profit if they are to continue.

In moving the amendment, my noble friend on the Front Bench talked about designating community bus routes. One could argue that as all bus routes run through communities, they could all be so designated. However, I fear that if the Government accepted this amendment, operators big and small would be even more cautious about running services in the areas just graphically outlined by the noble Baroness, particularly if they have to operate for a minimum six-month period. If I were still involved in a bus company and someone suggested running such a service, telling me that although there was no guarantee of making any money it was regarded as an essential service in that area and would have to run for six months, I would be inclined to say, “Forget it”. I am not sure what the thinking is behind tying a route to a six-month timescale, but it makes it less rather than more likely that such a service will be introduced. In any case, what would happen to services such as the New Forest explorer bus network, which runs for short periods—in fact, serving those communities—but for less than six months? What would happen to park-and-ride schemes that are run at holiday periods? Operators would surely think twice about introducing services such as those if they had to operate them for six months at a time.

In the debate on the last group of amendments, we made it clear that in some cases the service registration function has been taken away from traffic commissioners and given to local authorities, but the amendment proposes that traffic commissioners should be responsible for the designation mechanisms for these services. That is a bit of a contradiction in terms, and in fact I am not sure how it would operate in some areas. The brutal fact is that it is for local transport authorities to decide whether a service is of community value and, if they so decide, it is open to them to support it. Obviously, many of them do not have the money to do that but the fault for that lies with those responsible—the Department for Transport and the current Government—rather than with bus operators generally.

I close as I started: people will not run a service—community or otherwise—if it obviously does not pay and if the local authority involved does not have the function to enable it to run the service in the first place.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I completely concur with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Snape, has said, apart from the fact that there is not a bottomless pit of government money. However, I take on board and admire everything else that he said.

[Lord Snape]

Of course there is not a bottomless pit of public money. It is for the Government to decide the priorities for government expenditure, and I urge the noble Baroness who spoke just before me to press the Government to see the realities of life in rural areas before they take the axe to local government funding any further. I am pleased that the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, agrees with me, although I am not sure whether that will do anything for either of our careers.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, it is difficult to agree with everyone on this point. In response to my noble friend Lord Snape, nobody is going to run a community bus service if a bus service is already running. Presumably that service would be making a profit under his definition, so in theory there would not be a need for another one.

Turning to the amendment, the community bus route is based on the community interest company model, which I imagine was introduced by the Labour Government 10 or 15 years ago, although I cannot remember exactly when. I found one CIC on the internet called the Dales and Bowland Community Interest Company, which runs bus services in the Dales. The point is that it is not designed to make a profit—in fact, it is not allowed to make a profit unless it reinvests it. Unless something like that operated, it is pretty clear that there would be no bus service, so I suspect that, for areas which do not have bus services at the moment or which are thought to be unsuitable for such services, this kind of model makes a really good contribution.

One benefit of the CIC model is that it is very easy to set up—I am involved in one at the moment, although not in connection with buses—and it is easier to get funding for a CIC than it sometimes is for a commercial operation. Officials in the Department for Transport have basically said, “In some circumstances we would be pleased to consider a contribution from the department or from local authorities”. It might be easier to give it to a CIC which demonstrated that there was a need and that it was prepared to work towards participating in providing a service than it would be to give it to a local authority.

I have slight concerns about the text of the amendment. My noble friend Lord Snape talked about the six-month moratorium, but I think that the principle is very sound. I believe that community buses were one of the main reasons that CICs were set up in the first place. I hope that, when the Minister replies, he will look on the principle with favour and, if the text is not quite right, I hope that that can be discussed before the next stage. Integrating all the other bus services that we are talking about in the Bill with ones that would not operate without some community involvement—not to make a profit but just to provide a service for the people who need it—is a very important element.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 125 in my name, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has just explained, changes “may” to “must”. We strongly welcome the move to open data. For far too long, we have all accepted, possibly with some grumbling, a situation where there is a plethora of information on train services but very little information—outside London—on bus services.

I note the comments of the Delegated Powers Committee on the lack of clarity about what will happen to this information. Although the Explanatory Notes tell us that the powers given to the Secretary of State in this clause would,

“enable a single repository of information to be created”,

and that,

“The information … would be open to the public and could be used by software developers”,

in fact none of that is clear from Clause 17. Clause 17 is in effect an orphan clause, with no apparent reason or purpose. The amendment would ensure that the regulations “must” make the purpose of all this information clear and therefore that it “must” be free to users and passengers.

I support Amendments 124 and 124A in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. I also support Amendment 124B because it is obviously logical to extend the information so that it includes numbers of complaints and performance statistics. However, I have some sympathy with bus operators: I have some concern about information on lack of punctuality, because in the bus industry that is largely the result of traffic congestion, which is not the fault of the bus operator. I fear that, if lack of punctuality were reported baldly, general traffic situations could adversely affect judgment on the efficiency of operators. I am interested to hear the Minister’s comments on the use to which the Government plan to put open data.

[Lord Snape]

I support my noble friend on Amendment 124. I asked the Minister previously to come to Birmingham to see what is being done under the partnership in that city—not that I am qualified to send these invitations, but still. I send the same invitation to my colleagues on the Front Bench because the Bus Alliance recently published a pamphlet about the work that it is doing in the West Midlands, particularly on environmental matters, which would be of interest to my noble friend who moved the amendment.

I do not know whether the West Midlands Bus Alliance pamphlet has been widely circulated—I did suggest that it should go to noble Lords on all sides of the Chamber who have been participating in the Committee stage. Under the chapter entitled “Air Quality”, the alliance states:

“All buses operating in the West Midlands will be Euro V, Euro VI or better by 2020”.

It lists operator investment under the Bus Alliance Partnership in the West Midlands as comprising 49 diesel electric hybrids to be delivered by Diamond, a company based in the West Midlands, and National Express West Midlands through the Government’s Green Bus Fund. Further, there are 21 Travel de Courcey buses—a company based in Coventry—which have been,

“converted from Euro II and III to Euro VI”,

again with help from the Clean Bus Technology Fund. In addition,

“A further successful bid to the Clean Bus Technology Fund will see National Express convert 150 buses from Euro III to Euro VI”,

standards prior to 2020.

That is what can be done and it ought to be done countrywide. If anything, I suggest that the amendment could be toughened up to ensure that what is being done in the West Midlands under the Bus Alliance is done around the country if we are serious about improving air quality—particularly, but not solely, in our major towns and cities.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, an important element of the Bill is the availability of journey planning and information about bus services. This clause will facilitate the provision of information about timetables, fares, routes, tickets and live information about bus arrival times and enable it to be accessed openly, which should lead to better journey planning information for passengers. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that of course I recall his kind invitation and my acceptance of it. However, when I returned to the department it was my understanding that my honourable friend Andrew Jones would take up his offer. There is no reason why both of us cannot take up his offer and I shall certainly look into exactly where we are in that respect. The focus is on the provision of information that will be helpful to passengers in making informed decisions about whether to make their journey by bus or another transport mode.

I shall turn first to the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, whereby the information that may be prescribed would include information about the environmental impact of bus operations and vehicles, including information on the emissions of the vehicles in use. I am sympathetic to the desire of noble Lords to ensure that operators and local authorities are aware of the impact of local bus services on the environment. However, I do not believe that this information is crucial for journey planning purposes. Local authorities would already be aware of the environmental impact of buses on the local area. Other parts of the Bill will give local authorities greater powers to influence the types of vehicles used by operators when providing services.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord have also proposed further amendments whereby the information that may be prescribed would include information about complaints made about bus services, including their number and nature, as well as performance statistics on matters such as punctuality and reliability. Again, I am sympathetic to the desire to ensure that passengers have access to complaint and performance statistics, but I am sure that noble Lords will agree that raw complaints data should be read with a degree of caution as by themselves they do not necessarily give a full picture of the performance of a service. That said, I would not seek to play down the importance of complaints. There can be instances where well-organised campaigns on a specific issue can give the impression that a service is rather worse than it actually is and could deter passengers from using the bus as a consequence. I recognise that punctuality and reliability are important factors for passengers using bus services. I therefore reassure both noble Lords that this clause has been drafted in such a way that the release of punctuality data could be included in regulations made by the Secretary of State if it was considered appropriate after consultation with stakeholders.

The amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, would extend to matters such as the,

“helpfulness of the bus driver and comfort”,

of the vehicle. Matters such as these are subjective and are best covered by evidence-based customer satisfaction research of the kind conducted by Transport Focus which puts them into their correct context, in particular through the Bus Passenger Survey.