Terrorism: Glorification

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to deal with the glorification of terrorism and terrorists in the United Kingdom.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

Before the noble Baroness starts, I remind noble Lords that this debate is time-limited. We have one speaker in the gap. If any speakers go over their time, that will eat into the time for the Minister to respond to the points made by noble Lords.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, first, I thank noble Lords who have stayed to take part in this debate, late on a Thursday afternoon. It is a timely debate because, as we all know, this week sees the beginning of the Omagh bomb inquiry. As it has begun, we have heard from the families of the victims of that bomb about how terrorism has destroyed their lives. The families of the victims have always behaved with decorum and dignity; my prayer is that they finally receive the answers they have been searching for and a modicum of closure. That dreadful day in August 1998 has much been in my mind this week.

I particularly want to thank the Minister, who is very knowledgeable of the threat of terrorism. This is in no small part due to his service as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, and I look forward to his response later. Of course, he is not here today as an NIO Minister but rather as a Home Office Minister, because the glorification of terrorists and their organisations is certainly not confined to my part of the United Kingdom but is a threat to the security of the nation as a whole.

I want to speak principally about Sinn Féin’s continued glorification of the terrorist organisation the Provisional IRA, and the consequences of that. However, recently, on the streets of some of our major cities, we have seen other proscribed organisations, such as Hamas, being lauded. That too has its consequences, particularly around radicalisation. I am sure that other colleagues will want to speak to that issue.

As someone who has lived with and through terrorism, I am always alert to anything that would encourage it and bring back those dark days of intimidation, murder and mayhem. Unfortunately, in the years since the cessation of IRA violence, there has been a strategy to lionise terrorists, putting them and their actions on a pedestal. There are many examples of Sinn Féin politicians, many of them senior people, attending commemorations and celebrations of the lives of those who sought to murder their neighbours. In the interests of time, I bring noble Lords the most recent example of a senior Sinn Féin figure glorifying the past deeds of terrorists.

Before Christmas, Michelle O’Neill, the vice-president of Sinn Féin and the current First Minister of Northern Ireland, attended a Provisional IRA commemoration in County Londonderry. The men she was commemorating before Christmas were killed by their own bomb as they travelled through Magherafelt in December 1971—long before Michelle O’Neill was born. Their names were Jim Sheridan, John Bateson and Martin Lee, all members of the self-styled South Derry Brigade of the IRA; it was announced after their deaths that they were on “active service” at the time. Here were three young men with murder in their hearts, who had been dead for 53 years in December, and the current First Minister of Northern Ireland thought it appropriate to commemorate them.

It goes without saying that, as on every occasion when this happens, the deep offence and hurt to those who have suffered at the hands of the IRA is revisited. The retraumatisation of victims is unforgivable and needs called out on every occasion it happens, but this public act of commemoration also sends a very clear message to young republicans that what these young men did was honourable. It glamorises what they did and, to young and impressionable people who have little knowledge or life experience of the brutality of the IRA, it makes them sound like heroes, which patently they were not.

The often-chanted “Ooh ah up the Ra” is a symptom of the continuing republican glorification of dead terrorists. It is, some argue, just a bit of fun, but nothing could be further from the truth. I will never forget being at a black-tie event in Belfast and being asked for a picture by a glamorous young woman, only to have her sing “Ooh ah up the Ra” into my face as she took a video. The fact that my father had survived an IRA attempt on his life, or that as a teenager I was on a school bus that was blown up by “the Ra” because our bus driver was a member of the security forces, was irrelevant to her. She thought that it was funny. I did not.

There is the issue. If we allow people in positions of authority to glorify terrorism in the way that the current First Minister of Northern Ireland does, it normalises and sanitises terrorism, and, in a cyclical way, this will lead to young people being radicalised again. Witness the radicalisation of those currently on our streets supporting the actions of Hamas. Many of the young people doing so know little about the Middle East but think it is quite hip and trendy to support Hamas, because they hate Israel.

A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. If all you know about the IRA is that they took on the Brits and that the First Minister said they were a “great bunch of lads”, you will think that “Ooh ah up the Ra” is a grand wee chant. These young people know little of the devastation, murder, intimidation and barbarity of the IRA, because it is not something that the current First Minister talks about.

There have been conversations in the past about making the glorification of terrorism a criminal offence. Indeed, the Terrorism Act 2006 makes provision for a person to be charged with an offence if they make a statement that encourages a person to commit, prepare or instigate acts of terrorism. There have been no prosecutions under this section, to my knowledge, in Northern Ireland to date because, when challenged about such behaviour, Sinn Féin will argue that it is just honouring its dead. But of course it is much more than that. Its senior leadership is sending a message to wider republicans that violence and terrorism can be justified and that what the IRA did was justified. Of course it was not; there was never any justification for the violence, despite what the current First Minister claims. She will continue to claim that, and indeed to support the actions of these terrorists publicly, until she is prevented from doing so under law.

On Tuesday in the other place there was an Urgent Oral Question on the Government’s extremism review. During that Question, the member for North Antrim, Jim Allister MP, asked the Minister for Security about the glorification of terrorism by the current First Minister of Northern Ireland. The response he got from the Security Minister was disappointing, as he said:

“I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to delve into matters in Northern Ireland in the context of this response”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/1/25; col. 165.]


Why not? If the current First Minister of Northern Ireland is intent on continuing her glorification of terrorism and, at best, is reckless about the consequences, surely that should be a matter that a Security Minister should delve into. I hope the Minister here will be able to be a little clearer on that issue.

The IRA were defeated by the security services across the United Kingdom, not least the brave men and women who served in the RUC, the RUC Reserve, the PSNI, the Ulster Defence Regiment and then the Royal Irish Regiment, and of course colleagues in the mainstream Army. As the daughter of an RUC officer, I was always incredibly proud of how he served without fear or favour. For him and for many others to have their memories sullied by glorifying the terrorists who sought to murder them makes me very angry. We cannot allow the propaganda of the IRA’s political wing to rewrite what happened in Northern Ireland. That is why a change in the law is required, especially to deal with those in authority who continue to exalt and deify terrorists who have caused so much hurt and pain.

I am aware that, in 2023, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation considered whether the legislation on the encouragement and glorification of terrorism under the 2006 Act should be amended. He concluded that it was not possible to formulate a mere glorification offence within acceptable limits, and therefore recommended against amending Section 1 of the Terrorism Act. However, this conclusion was before the onslaught of the glorification that we have seen on our streets in respect of Hamas, and perhaps Mr Hall KC may want to review this section again. However, I acknowledge his expertise and instead propose a more nuanced approach.

I submit that the Government should consider an amendment to the legislation so that persons in authority or holding a particular office, such as a Minister in government or in the Northern Ireland Executive, should not be allowed to glorify past acts of terrorism, or terrorists, and that if they do so, they are committing an offence. This amendment is narrow in scope but would deal with the specific issue of people in authority sending skewed messages to young people about terrorism and the terrorists of the past. It falls within the counterterrorism strategy’s first principle of Prevent,

“to stop people from becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism”,

and therefore aligns with the Government’s strategy. I look forward to the Minister’s thoughts on that proposal.

I also note that there is a new interim Prevent commissioner, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, who was appointed very recently, and I am more than happy to discuss this matter with him. He is here today, and I am very glad about that. I will leave my remarks there, and I look forward to hearing from noble Lords in relation to this issue.

Asylum Support (Prescribed Period) Bill [HL]

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 13th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, together with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, as two founder members of the Lister terriers pack, I pay tribute to the leader of our pack; I am privileged to stand up and support her Bill. I thank the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, as the former chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, because one of the few strengths of the House of Commons is the Select Committee. It looked at this matter in great detail and came out with a recommendation to do precisely what the Home Office has just done, so I pay tribute to her and to the committee’s effectiveness.

I wish to speak specifically about the issue of age-disputed children; I also have some questions on it. Between April and June this year, 2,088 age disputes were raised. There are several specific challenges that age-disputed young people face in navigating this process. Clearly, there are vulnerability and safety issues. Although the Home Office works with organisations that provide some support, it is not always done terribly effectively. Those organisations are often not specialists in supporting age-disputed young people and often direct them back to the British Red Cross. Migrant Help, which is contracted to provide move-on advice, told us that it does

“not provide this service to age-disputed young people”.

However, it added that it would be willing to provide this service outreach in some cases; perhaps the department could get in touch with Migrant Help and see whether there would be some sense in trying to make that systematic and part of the process.

The move-on process is often the starting point for engaging with family reunion, which is a highly emotional and sometimes mildly traumatic process. For age-disputed young people who are sponsoring family members—some of them are—that makes it particularly complex. Can the Minister look at those specific issues? I do not expect an answer from the Dispatch Box; perhaps he could write to us so that we can follow up on that. I would be most grateful.

So I entirely agree with the purpose of the Bill. I also entirely echo the third cheer of my noble friend Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, not least because many of us have a vivid memory of this being discussed at great length in this House, with a significant amount of support in particular from the then Government’s ranks, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud. I seem to recall her saying that allowing migrants to help is entirely in line with what she regards as a core Conservative value.

Domestic Abuse: Victims and Survivors

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I too pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, and to Her Majesty the Queen; I saw the documentary and thought her unforced, natural empathy had huge power.

I applaud the Government for their commitment and focus to reduce violence against women and girls, and I commend them particularly for the appointments of Jess Phillips and Alex Davies-Jones. As a head-hunter for 31 years, I could never understand why previous Conservative Governments did not immediately put the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, into a position to deal with domestic abuse, on the basis that she was far better qualified than anybody else in that Administration. However, the Conservative Government did many things that I did not fully understand.

I pay tribute to the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, Nicole Jacobs, and her team for all they do. What a legacy this Government have inherited. Nicole Jacobs’s six priorities for the Government encompass: domestic abuse service provision and funding; the policing and criminal justice system; children and young people, and the trauma that domestic abuse can create; family courts; migrant survivors; and domestic homicide and suicide.

Turning briefly to domestic abuse services and funding, her submission to the Autumn Budget and spending review has some significant requests in it, including £303.8 million for community-based DA support, of which £187.8 million should be ring-fenced to ensure that it delivers what is planned.

I am particularly concerned about how we tackle the policing and criminal justice challenges, with only 6% of domestic abuse crimes reported to police resulting in a charge and even fewer resulting in a conviction. Multiagency and cross-geography co-ordination and co-operation are simply not working. With 43 police forces and police and crime commissioners, it is “Let a thousand flowers bloom” and priorities are all over the place. The police force data quality is inconsistent and our ability to measure the effectiveness of measures to reduce domestic abuse is severely handicapped by systemic shortcomings—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale.

The Minister may remember the interchanges we had last week about the new initiatives on stalking and independent stalking advocates. Can he commit to ensuring that this strategy is truly cross-governmental? It needs to bring in health, education, welfare, communities and local government. Can he use his best efforts to ensure that we have far more effective and focused metrics to measure success and, equally helpfully, to measure failure?

Tackling Stalking

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement yesterday by the Government. I was taking part in an online conference organised by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust yesterday morning and the Minister, Jess Phillips, was there in her usual form—she has the ability, as a politician, to speak words that do not sound as if they are being spoken by a politician. In a way that was slightly pertinent to the debate we have just had, she understands the language that victims use themselves and need to hear so that they know they are being heard. I commend her for that. I have four particular points that I would like to raise.

The first is that the Government’s pledge to reduce the level of violence against women and girls is entirely welcome. It is a no-brainer. How to do it is of course the problem. At the moment, a lot of the funding for stalking is inextricably linked with that for domestic abuse. The two are not the same. They overlap, but a very significant part of stalking, about 64%, is not domestic abuse related and, if that is not recognised as the separate issue that it is, and is not given the right resources, we will continue to have all sorts of problems.

The second is that, while it is valiant to try to do something about the perpetrators, I think that that will not be done effectively by the current ways in which it is being done. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust has pioneered a programme called MASIP, which is a way of getting every informed body around the same table so that together they can speak with a real insight into and knowledge of the individual perpetrator, his history—it is usually a he—and behaviour, the type of stalker he is, the probability or possibility, if there is any, of his being able to be influenced to stop doing what he has been doing. That really needs to be encouraged. It is an existing best practice and it works.

Thirdly, access to independent stalking advocates is vital. The statistics are simply spellbinding. For every victim who has access to an independent stalking advocate, the chance of conviction is one in four. For a victim without that access, it is one in 1,000. Even those who do not know very much about statistics would recognise the quantum difference between the two.

The last is best practice. Jess Phillips mentioned yesterday, and it is in the Statement, the best practice that exists, for example, in Cheshire. Cheshire is really at the top of the Premier League—thinking about another Bill that is taking an inordinate amount of time your Lordships’ House—in terms of working in a co-coordinated way, being very open-minded and prepared to pioneer approaches that I fear the majority of police forces, for all sorts of good reasons, I am sure, have not done. We know that it works there incredibly well. The Government have inherited a system of 43 different police forces and 43 different police and crime commissioners, and we have a system where the British tendency to try to create the wheel in our own image repeatedly exists and flourishes in that environment. There is a point at which His Majesty’s Government will have to mandate best practice and ensure that it is adhered to. If we know it works, let us use it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his very constructive contribution. I cannot compete with Jess Phillips in terms of language, but I will certainly refer the points that have been made throughout this debate back to her. I think the noble Lord will recognise that Jess Phillips is absolutely 100% committed to meeting the target set in the Government’s manifesto. She is passionate about the issue of violence against women and girls and understands the very point the noble Lord mentioned about the difference between domestic violence and stalking. She is cognisant of the fact that she will need to work with other government departments, such as the Ministry of Justice, in particular, to improve performance in these areas.

The noble Lord mentioned stalking advocates, which is a very constructive contribution. I will refer to Jess Phillips’ speech, note it and look at how we can work with the suggestion in due course.

Best practice is extremely important. Cheshire is just over the border from where I live, and I know the area very well and all the good practice going on there. Part of the Government’s objectives, as set out in the Statement, is to ensure that we look at best practice, incorporate it into guidelines and work together with a number of agencies—health, police, probation and others—to give statutory guidelines downstream and to help support agencies in reducing the level of stalking and linked criminal activity.

The noble Lord makes an extremely valid point, because the question of advocates has arisen. Last year, the police recorded 131,912 stalking incidents, and only 8% of those ended up in a charge. Some 66,000 of those cases—this shocked me and will shock the noble Lord—were closed due to the victim not supporting action. The point he makes about stalking advocates is central to that issue; people need support, because for many it may be the first time they have come into contact with the criminal justice system. All of us have different experiences of it, but this might be the first time they have met with a police officer in the context of themselves or a court. Therefore, an expert who can stand back and provide guidance and reassurance might well lift that 52% non-progression rate. The number of people convicted of stalking offences, which increased last year under the previous Government by 39%, is still only 1,239; that compares with a recorded stalking offences figure of 131,000. That needs to change, along with the culture. I hope that the measures in this Statement will assist in that, if not complete the task.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will be brief. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has made a fairly persuasive case for this. I would hope that to a large extent what he is looking for is already happening fairly systematically as part of good practice in any regulatory authority. Given that it is likely that a large amount of our regulation will probably continue to be broadly in alignment with the EU, it would make a lot of sense for our respective regulatory authorities to be in pretty close contact to make sure that they have, to the extent that it is sensible, the same view and understanding and the same breadth in scanning the different international regulations so that, essentially, they are talking the same language. That would be extremely helpful.

In principle, this is a very good idea. However, it is fine for us, as legislators, to talk theoretically or in detail about statutes and subsections, but the proof is the view business takes of what we are discussing. If business regards this as entirely sensible and something that should be done anyway as a matter of doing regulation well, that is well and good. If it has concerns that this will complicate things further, slow things down and lead to slightly arcane arguments about relative international standards from goodness knows where in the world, I suspect it will not be quite so keen.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lansley for introducing his amendments so incredibly clearly and expertly. It is obvious that international standards are vital for facilitating global trade. Products that adhere to international standards are more easily accepted across borders. They reduce trade barriers, open new markets for UK business and so on. They ensure that UK products can continue to compete internationally and maintain their high reputation for quality and reliability.

Aligning product requirements with international standards ensures that UK consumers also benefit from high levels of safety. This alignment builds consumer trust, as consumers know that the products they are buying meet rigorous global benchmarks. Amendment 43 specifies that this requires consultation. It is vital that consultation takes place with experts. In principle, we absolutely support the spirit and intent of these amendments.

Security of Elected Representatives

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises some good points. I entirely agree that we should be encouraging debate around these subjects, that we should be tolerant of freedom and that we should encourage freedom. It seems to me self-evident that you can expose widely held fallacies only by, in effect, letting sunlight in as the perfect disinfectant. In terms of debate, the only sunlight you can let in comes via speeches, words and testing opinions and widely held fallacies. On that subject, we have to be careful around the taxonomy that we use when defining some of these hatreds because, again, we would not wish inadvertently to make certain discussions beyond the pale, shall we say.

As regards the devolved nations, defending democracy is a sovereign matter, but policing is devolved. We will work with the security services in those Administrations on the safety of their Governments. Any additional requirements on devolved policing will be funded in the appropriate way. I reassure my noble friend that the Government are looking at how to maintain security requirements during the Dissolution of Parliament when, as he rightly points out, MPs will no longer be MPs. However, Operation Bridger is very clear. A full-time, single point of contact in each police force will be introduced with responsibility for supporting all elected representatives where needed. Obviously, if an MP has stood down for that time, that does not mean that they are not still protected, where needed.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the other place is in a sense the vox populi that has an enormous influence on debate and on the tenor of how people feel in this country? The Whip system in both our major parties is extraordinarily effective in getting their adherents to vote along party lines, however much they might dislike it, demonstrating a commendable degree of discipline. It would be nice to see that discipline applied equally to those members of each party who choose to use inflammatory language, which is clearly unhelpful to them as individuals and certainly to their staff but also to all their colleagues.

My second point is that, in the event that a general election is called, the individuals running for office will no longer be MPs and the whipping system as such will therefore no longer be in effect. What role or responsibility will the central offices of the major parties have in trying to ensure a degree of discipline and coherence in what those who are running under their particular flags say during the election campaign? GB News is a good example of how a small flame can quite quickly create a gas explosion. I am worried about a lack of discipline unless, frankly, all the major parties are aware of this issue and are taking active steps to do something about it.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some good points. I would say that the other House is not the vox populi; it is elected to represent its constituents’ concerns, whatever those concerns might be. I take his points about the Whip system. I noticed that that system was enacted speedily and swiftly in circumstances that I suspect he was referring to earlier this week.

With regard to the general election, the ultimate decider of whether or not the messages being delivered on the doorstep are acceptable or appropriate is the electors in those constituencies. It is clear that parties—I would extend this to all parties—have clear rules about what is and is not acceptable, and I am sure they will be enforcing those rules as ruthlessly as necessary.

Illegal Migration Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

Amendment 101 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 101 pre-empts Amendment 102.

Amendment 102 not moved.

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment 104 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, Amendment 104 pre-empts Amendment 105.

Amendment 105 not moved.

UK: Violence Against Women and Girls

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, for her comprehensive introduction, and I wish the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, well. I hope she will soon be back with us. I join the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, in her tribute to my noble and learned friend Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood and his wisdom and balance. You could often rely on him to say what you would not expect him to, and it really made one reflect and think again. He will be sorely missed.

I am going to focus on the subject of stalking in particular, because today it is not possible for either of the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady Bertin, to take part. The three of us are part of the National Stalking Consortium. I would like to thank the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and the victims’ commissioner for London for their help in preparing for today. I will fire a series of questions at the Minister. I do not expect detailed answers at the Dispatch Box. However, I ask the Minister to feel free to respond to me in writing, preferably in great detail, after the debate.

First, the National Stalking Consortium put a super-complaint forward last November, prompted in part by the fact that only 5% of reports of stalking to police result in a charge by the Crown Prosecution Service. While it is welcome that, as a result of the super-complaint, the IOPC, the College of Policing and HMICFRS are going to investigate a series of different police forces to understand the underlying issues, we will not have any findings until some time next year. One immediate action that His Majesty’s Government could take would be to urge the College of Policing to mandate that all officers who will deal with stalking complete specialist training. The Met, to its credit, has decided to do this voluntarily, but it is our contention that all forces should undertake this as soon as possible—an action that I suspect the noble Lord, Lord Patten, would approve of, given his comments about prevention, as well as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, given her comments on the importance of training.

Secondly, I want to talk about imminent changes to the Home Office counting rules for different crimes. The National Police Chiefs’ Council is looking at four changes to the way in which crimes are reported: the threshold for cancelling crimes; the principal crime value; recording malicious communications offences; and recording Section 5 public order offences. I particularly want to focus on the second of those: what is the principal crime rule? Stalking, typically, is recorded as a type 2A offence; it is rarely flagged up as a type 4A offence. If what the police chiefs wish to happen happens—which is that the incidence of reporting is reduced—it is quite possible that the large number of stalking crimes will not actually appear and be recorded as such, because they will be subsumed among other crimes that are deemed more important.

The third point is about stalking legislation itself. In 2012, stalking was created in two separate types of offence: stalking that involves fear of violence or serious alarm or distress, and a lesser charge that is simply described as “stalking”. Confusion reigns as a result. The vast majority of prosecutions that are brought against stalkers are against the lesser category of stalking. A 2017 report found that stalking behaviours were present in no less than nine out of 10 homicides. Could the Minister undertake to investigate whether the time has come for this confusion to be ended? We need to establish a new stand-alone offence of stalking that adequately recognises the psychological terror it inflicts on victims. I look forward to the Minister’s detailed response.

Baroness Casey Review

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s last point, yes, I agree—but I also think that a key element of that is to restore trust among the diverse communities that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, has identified as having reduced or lost trust in the police. I am afraid that I cannot agree, though, that the Home Secretary is setting up the Mayor of London. It is in black and white: it is the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, who makes the point, not the Home Secretary. I shall acknowledge, of course, that the Home Secretary bears some responsibility for policing in the capital—because, of course, the Metropolitan Police has a large number of national aspects to its work, too.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. It cannot have been much fun to read it out—and it is horrifying to read. For those of us who have been involved in some of the legislation going through this House in the last few years, I am afraid that very little of it is a surprise.

To follow on from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, speaking as a Cross-Bencher, one of the things that I find most egregious is the politicisation of dealing with this problem. I live in a constituency in London where my wonderful Member of Parliament, Mr Hands, has recently, poor chap, been made the chairman of the Minister’s party. Every week, I have an email from him, which I call “The wonder of Greg”, which tells me about all the things he is doing, including taking the oath to the new King—and we had a clip to watch. But every week, week in and week out, there is constant sniping at the Mayor of London, in a nakedly political way, which is doing nobody any good at all.

Mr Khan may not be everybody’s flavour of the month, but the only way in which we will tackle this issue is to depoliticise the relationship between whichever Government it is, the Home Office and the mayor, who is there to represent all Londoners and not there to be an enemy of those who are Conservatives. If the Minister could take one message to his right honourable friend in the other place, when she is not doing home decorating in parts of Africa, it is to try to remember that the mayor is there to represent all of us who live here in London, and there to represent the interests of all victims—and please can we be a bit more grown-up about this and be very careful about the language that we use?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

From a broad point of view, I of course agree with the noble Lord. I do not personally approve of the politicisation of policing. However, I shall go back to the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, who said:

“A dysfunctional relationship has developed between the Met and MOPAC”.


Under those circumstances, I would say to the noble Lord that it works both ways. I also think that whatever he is seeing locally is best dealt with locally. I shall of course raise his concerns with the chairman of my party, but the fact is that these are not Home Office points—they are made by the noble Baroness herself, when she says that a “dysfunctional relationship has developed”. That dysfunctional relationship needs to be resolved.

Police: Vetting, Misconduct and Misogyny

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I do not know; I cannot answer my noble friend.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the subject of this Question takes us back to many of the areas we covered in both the Domestic Abuse Act and the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act, so there is a strong sense of déjà vu all over again. The Minister has made much about it being up to individual police forces to take what action they consider appropriate. I suggest to him, on the basis of this report and others, that they are not assuming their individual responsibility with any degree of similarity or with great efficiency. I listened to BBC Radio 4’s “Woman’s Hour” this morning, which is very informative. Is the Minister aware that an ex-head of the Greater Manchester police force, when asked what advice he would give to the young female members of his own family regarding interactions with the police, was unable to answer the question, saying, “I’m not quite sure”?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I did not hear the programme to which the noble Lord refers, but that is obviously very shocking indeed. The body responsible for vetting guidance is the College of Policing, which will consider any areas where vetting can be strengthened and respond accordingly. This is done within a national application framework, so it is hoped that this will be corrected, as I say, with extreme speed.