Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 3rd September 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, just quickly, I will back up the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, on Amendment 168. I, like many other noble Lords, have been involved with a variety of charities that were impacted by the cyber security breach at Beacon CRM, which has about 1,500 charities that store an enormous amount of personal data. I looked at its website, and perhaps this will emphasise to the Minister the problem that we face. This is what this website, which had a major security breach in the past, says about its security:

“The secure choice for security-conscious charities. Beacon has all of the security certifications and features that you should expect from your CRM, and we’re adding more all the time”.


It says that it is ISO 27001:2022 certified and Cyber Essentials Plus certified and that

“Cyber Essentials Plus is the highest level of certification in the UK government’s Cyber Essentials scheme, and includes a technical audit of the Beacon team’s endpoint devices”.

It says that it has “World-class infrastructure” and that it is “A UK-based system”. If I was a potential customer of Beacon reading all that, I would feel a very false sense of security about the level of knowledge and defence that its systems have. That is clearly not the case. There is a clear, major mismatch between the degree of confidence that organisations such as Beacon have in their own cyber security and the reality of how feeble and weak they actually are. Before this happens again and again, it would be helpful to look at this more closely and see whether we need to do more.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Birt, was right to remind us that we perhaps need something rather more generic and comprehensive when we are assessing whether a particular sector should be brought into the Bill, but that does not mean that we should not use this group of amendments to illustrate that the Bill at the moment is not nearly comprehensive enough in the way it is structured and the sectors that it contains.

The Bill remains stubbornly wedded to what we might call the traditional 2018 five utilities model: water, energy, transport, health and core telecoms. But we have moved on from that world. Today, systemic digital risk does not respect what might be called 20th century arbitrary utility boundaries for critical national infrastructure. An adversary seeking to disrupt our society or blackmail the UK does not need to compromise a power station; it can strike our democratic institutions, food distribution networks, university research labs, orbital satellites or software supply chains.

Amendment 79, tabled by my noble friend Lady Ludford, designates services supporting registered political parties as essential activities. Hostile state actors, from Russian GRU units to Chinese state-sponsored espionage networks, are actively targeting our political parties. As my honourable friend and my noble friend have argued strongly, political parties are a vital part of our constitutional machinery, yet they operate on shoestring budgets with high staff turnovers, heavily reliant on consumer-grade IT and voluntary workers, while holding vast tranches of confidential voter files, donor databases and what we might call strategic policy intelligence. If a hostile power exfiltrates or manipulates a major political party’s systems, the threat is not just a commercial data breach but the subversion of our electoral integrity and democratic sovereignty. To leave our political parties outside statutory NCSC cyber standards is an indefensible democratic blind spot that Amendment 79 would decisively rectify.

Amendment 80, tabled by my noble friend Lady Northover, who sadly cannot be present, addresses the fact that the Bill remains frozen in that 2018 world. It will bring critical manufacturing, industrial food production and large-scale food distribution networks under statutory cyber resilience duties. Our contemporary manufacturing and retail logistics networks are no longer purely mechanical operations; they are vast, hyper-automated cyber-physical systems. They run on automated warehouse robotics, internet-connected telemetry and algorithmic just-in-time delivery pipelines.

Consider the manufacturing of critical transport equipment. When Jaguar Land Rover suffered a catastrophic supply chain cyber breach, the damage was not confined to a single company balance sheet. Production lines were frozen for four months, hundreds of component manufacturers were dragged to the brink of collapse and the economic fallout cost between £1.6 billion and £2.1 billion, making it the costliest cyber attack in British history and forcing the state to step in with loan guarantees. In an economy that depends to a large extent on vehicle transport and haulage equipment, leaving critical automotive and transport manufacturing outside statutory NIS protections is an invitation to systemic economic blackmail.

Even more acute is the vulnerability of our food supply. Modern food processing and supermarket distribution operate with less than 48 hours of inventory buffer. When Marks & Spencer was hit by a major ransomware incident, it cost £300 million to remediate and wiped 99% from its statutory pre-tax profits. As I said earlier, if a hostile state or sophisticated ransomware syndicate executes a co-ordinated attack against the central routeing software of two major distribution operators, supermarket shelves across our cities would begin emptying within two days.

Amendment 80 provides a clear, proportionate statutory safeguard. It includes an explicit turnover threshold of £12 million, ensuring that local bakeries, independent farmers and small shops face zero regulatory burden. It targets solely the industrial food processors and large-scale distributors whose distribution would threaten the daily functioning of society. In doing so, it aligns the UK with the EU’s NIS2 directive, which has already brought food production, processing and critical manufacturing under statutory cyber obligations. Our European neighbours recognise that you cannot have national resilience if your food supply can be halted by a single malicious click, so why are this Government leaving Britain’s food supply chain completely exposed?

That brings me to Amendment 81, also in the name of my noble friend Lady Northover, which designates the space and satellite sector as an essential activity under Part 3. The omission of the space sector from primary cyber security legislation in 2026 is nothing short of extraordinary. The space sector is formally identified in the Government’s own industrial strategy as a core national growth driver. Yet the Bill treats orbital infrastructure as if it were entirely invisible. Our entire critical national infrastructure, from financial transaction timestamps across the City of London and automated container port logistics, to emergency blue-light dispatch, cellular networks and high-voltage grid synchronisation, relies absolutely on satellite positioning, navigation and timing—PNT.

Ground-truth economic studies demonstrate that a five-day blackout of satellite positioning systems would inflict a staggering £5.2 billion direct loss on the UK economy. Furthermore, the UK possesses world-leading capability in earth observation and small satellite manufacturing, with sovereign launch facilities advancing at SaxaVord. But satellites, ground uplink stations and space telemetry are dual-use systems. As the House of Lords special inquiry committee on space, which I sat on, has heard throughout its evidence sessions, satellite communications and orbital command links are under relentless, daily cyber probing, jamming and spoofing by hostile state adversaries. An exploit deployed against the satellite operator’s ground command software can sever communications, blind environmental monitoring or hijack commercial orbital satellites.

Amendment 81 would rectify this strategic blind spot. It would place a statutory requirement on the Secretary of State, within six months, to make regulations bringing the space sector into scope as an essential activity. It specifically covers the operation of space objects and launch facilities, satellite communications, earth observation and critical PNT services, while requiring the Government to designate an appropriate regulatory authority such as the CAA or Ofcom to supervise compliance.

Before moving on to my own amendments, I welcome Amendment 81A, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, covering the education sector. Our world-class universities are the engines of the UK science and technology prowess, holding billions of pounds of cutting-edge IP, defence research and quantum computing prototypes. They are under relentless cyber espionage assault from foreign adversaries, while centralised bodies such as UCAS and qualification boards, as the noble Baroness said, hold sensitive data on millions of young people. Bringing education into scope under Part 3 is an urgent national security necessity.

I have tabled new amendments—Amendments 81B, 81C and 81D—which address the single most gaping, indefensible and dangerous structural failure of the Bill: the complete and absolute exclusion of central government, public authorities, local councils and our core democratic electoral infrastructure from the scope of our national cyber security perimeters. How can we claim to be building a genuinely cyber resilient nation when the public administration itself is left out entirely in the cold? I wish I had more time to expand on those three amendments, but I will content myself with hoping that the Minister will have considered those amendments and will come back with a positive response. Of course, we strongly look forward to an answer to my noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool’s questions on Amendment 168.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tarassenko (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak in support of Amendment 83 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to which I have added my name. In my speech, I will focus just on the aspects of the digital sovereign strategy that are relevant to the NHS. I speak as someone who held an honorary contract with the Oxford University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust until November 2025, enabling me to be a co-investigator on research projects involving patient data.

Cyber attacks against NHS trusts and their supply chains occur with very high frequency, from regular automated phishing attempts, which are blocked daily, to major incidents causing significant clinical disruption. Health and social care consistently rank among the top sectors reported for cyber incidents and data breaches to the ICO. I am sure that we all remember the WannaCry cyber attack in May 2017, which affected 81 of our 236 NHS trusts at the time, causing nearly 20,000 appointments to be cancelled in a week.

Less than two years ago, in November 2024, there was a major cyber attack against the Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust, which compromised the trust’s electronic patient record. I know that EPR well as we have the same EPR in Oxford: Cerner Millennium. As a result of the cyber attack, staff in the Wirral hospitals lost all access to patient records, electronic prescribing tools and diagnostic results. All elective surgeries and outpatient appointments across the trust had to be cancelled, and members of the public were told not to use the emergency department at one of the hospitals in the trust. All clinical systems remained completely offline for nine days.

I mentioned the EPR Cerner Millennium. Cerner is now part of Oracle Health. Together, Oracle and Epic, both of which are US companies, account for about 40% of hospital EPR contracts in England and Wales. In primary care, EMIS software manages just under 60% of the patient records—the records of 35 to 40 million patients across England and Wales. EMIS was bought by Optum, part of the UnitedHealth Group, in 2023, but, in March this year, the UnitedHealth Group sold Optum to a US private equity firm, TPG, for just under £300 million. I will come back to that briefly later.

In 2023, NHS England and the Department of Health and Social Care launched a 2030 cyber security strategy. The noble Lord, Lord Markham, when he was a Health Minister, wrote the foreword—he will remember this, I am sure—to the strategy document. In it, he wrote—we all agree with him, I am sure—that

“the cyber security of our health and social care … underwrites patient safety”.

The group director for cyber security for the DHSC has recently written to all NHS trust boards informing them that, from this month, September 2026, new cyber policies will be included in the next data security and protection toolkit, covering issues such as multi-factor authentication, high-severity alerts and endpoint detection. There is nothing about AI, which is perhaps the subtitle of this Bill—something that will, I hope, have been removed by Report. Yet we know from Tuesday’s debate and last week’s open letter from 100 companies, including large tech firms, that AI-enabled cyber attacks are about to become more widespread and more sophisticated within months.

This prompts three questions. First, are officials from the Minister’s department, which has overall responsibility for cyber security, co-ordinating with the cyber security group in the DHSC—especially with respect to the latest threats from AI agents?

Secondly, have the recent reports from the AISI been communicated to the cyber security group in the DHSC, and have their implications for the NHS been discussed with them? I note here that the new Minister for Science and Innovation, Chris McDonald MP, is a Minister in both the DBIST and the DHSC, so I am hopeful that the answer to these two questions might be yes.

Thirdly, given the high prevalence of foreign ownership of companies, such as Epic and TPG, that are responsible for managing patient data within the NHS—notwithstanding the single-supplier agreement with Palantir, another US company, for the Federated Data Platform—has the Minister’s department assessed the risk to relevant network and information systems as a result of our technological dependence on these companies?

What I have described for the NHS also applies to other sovereign data assets such as those held by the BBC or the Met Office. If the full value to the UK of these sovereign data assets is to be realised as part of the Government’s growth strategy, we need to be optimally protected against cyber attacks, including AI-enabled attacks. For that to happen, we need a coherent digital sovereign strategy across government departments, led by the Minister’s department.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron: in the previous group, we probably would not have had anything like that debate if a clear strategy were indeed in place.

I will speak very briefly and in the context of other countries’ views of the safety and security of doing business with the UK and UK entities. Part of the backdrop is an attempt by His Majesty’s Government to try to do a reset with the EU, not least because of the problems we are having with our erstwhile colonial possessions across the Atlantic. We need to be viewed as a safe haven for the security of our business and data. If we look at what the EU, for all its bureaucratic idiosyncrasies, has been doing with NIS2, in many instances that is an extremely good model for us when looking comprehensively at the different sectors that need to be involved. NIS2 covers energy, transport, banking, financial market infrastructures, health, drinking water, wastewater, digital infrastructure, ISP services, public administration, space, postal services, waste management, chemicals, food, manufacturing, research and other critical parts of the economy. The EU is ahead of us and has done a great deal of groundwork; if we were to talk to the EU, we could benefit hugely without reinventing the wheel.

It is imperative not only that we give noble Lords and parliamentarians a feeling that we know what we are doing and where we are going but that other countries currently doing, or thinking of doing, business or more business with us have faith in the security of our data and cyber security infrastructure. If I were looking to invest in a company, that is an area I would look at very carefully—but, frankly, at the moment, I would not feel very confident.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, these amendments are highly pertinent. We simply must ensure that non-UK providers of services in this sector are firmly and wholly within the scope of the Bill—they are only partly in scope. For noble Lords who were not at Second Reading, I read out a coruscating report by the American Government that damned Microsoft for its poor cyber security. I am sure that it is not true across the whole of Microsoft, but in that particular instance it manifestly was.

I observe that our previous debate was absolutely excellent; it uniformly focused on organisations in the UK that are providing services. There was a danger that somebody hearing that debate might think that all those organisations are themselves responsible for breaches. The data on whether breaches chiefly occur through failures in organisations mentions the absence of multifactor authentication or that they are caused by failures in the quality and design of the services that those organisations consume. By the way, the organisations consume literally hundreds and hundreds of services, and the reality is that it is a huge challenge for organisations to ensure that all the services that they buy are secure. We might say that it is a near impossibility. Again, it is absolutely vital that we keep providers firmly within the scope of the Bill—I am not saying that they are not there, but they are certainly not there in their totality—and, dare I say, firmly under regulation.

Broadcasting: Recent Developments

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Thursday 8th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fowler (CB)]

My Lords, I am not remotely going to attempt a further summing up. We had a very good summing up from the Minister, and I congratulate her and the two spokesmen of the political parties on what they have said.

The debate has proved and established what I said at the beginning, which is that if you look at the Membership of the House of Lords, you find a great deal of experience in exactly this media area. I can only hope that the authorities, when they are organising future debates, will understand that that is the case.

I will mention three points, in headline terms, before sitting down. The first is the issue which was rightly raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester; I knew his predecessor and we had a very good working relationship, and I hope the same will be true with him. His emphasis on radio is vastly important, and many people in this country listen much more to radio than watch television, or certainly as much. Programmes such as “From Our Own Correspondent” open a window to a whole range of things overseas.

Secondly, I welcome the new services that have developed. It is quite interesting how they have developed since the last time I debated these issues. There is a new surge—a new verve—in new services being established. Obviously, the chief one I have in mind is Times Radio. I must say we are greatly privileged that the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, should have left his familiar position to support our debate, and I hope he finds it useful and valuable, too.

My third and last point is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, basically to say that he has pioneered and campaigned for more help for overseas aid, and his words and his—

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, I regret to say that under the rules for time limited debates, the time allotted for this debate has now elapsed, and I am afraid I must put the Question on the Motion, if the noble Lord would sit down.

Motion agreed.

Media Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Report stage & 3rd reading
Thursday 23rd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

Correct: GB News. It allows one Tory MP to interview another Tory MP, which is against the rules, as everyone knows, and yet Ofcom sits on the fence because it does not want to take action. It is not surprising because we are dominated by the Conservatives; the chairman and director-general of the BBC are both Tories; the chairman of Ofcom is a Tory; we are overrun by Tories in every area of the media, and we need to address this because there is no balance. This means that people do not stick to the rules that Parliament has laid down. Ofcom has a lot more to answer for and it needs to address some of the shortfalls that it has now if it is going to take on more responsibility.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will bring the House to the safe harbour of the Cross Benches and take us away from the world of politics—we will have quite enough politics in the next month or so without starting it now.

I spoke in Committee, so I will not say any more, but I endorse everything the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, said. She knows how I feel, the Minister knows how I feel. We were all on an Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme trip to Bahrain over the weekend so, apart from having lots of hummus, he also heard quite a lot about Reithian principles. I will follow up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said, and I would like to do so, very appropriately with this Minister, on the basis of the alternatives that young children are now exposed to in the online world. The majority of young children will not necessarily benefit from the sort of children’s public sector broadcasting that I suspect most of us are familiar with but have probably not watched a lot of recently, unless we have been babysitting our grandchildren and have nodded off beside them and whatever it is they are listening to.

The reality is that what children are accessing now is very different from what happened before. This is slightly similar to the discussion we had recently about the Government’s new proposed regulations around personal, health and social education in schools. Many children are educated in a way that is pretty much invisible to much of the adult population. I ask the Minister to work very closely with the Department for Education; schools and teachers know very well, having picked it up from them, what their students are exposed to and the degree to which that is good or bad. The Children’s Commissioner should also have a lot of input into trying to understand the firmament of content that children are gaining access to; now is a very important watershed time to do that because every month or year we lose in understanding what children are gaining their knowledge—or lack of knowledge—from, the more time we lose.

Media Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I support the first four amendments in this group—Amendments 1 to 3 and 7—and will not repeat what has been said so far in the excellent two speeches. However, I support them for a different reason: I think that they lay the ground for later amendments, particularly Amendments 9, 13 and 32. I will make a serious point about those amendments now, partly because I may have to be on a train when the Committee gets to them.

If we take seriously the Reithian principles to inform, educate and entertain, it means doing what the inscription from George Orwell outside the BBC spells out: that people are enabled to be confronted by, or to hear and see things, that

“they do not want to hear”.

That is essential to public service broadcasting and democratic education. That is also why, when we get to Amendments 9, 13 and 32, it becomes so important to cite in the Bill some of the genres that need to be not just glossed over or assumed but recognised as essential to inform, educate and broadcast in an entertaining way. As was said earlier, not everything has to be serious; often we are informed and educated by being entertained. The reference to “EastEnders” was pertinent: we gauge the public conversation by what we see being conversed about in things such as soap operas.

That is why—I would say this, wouldn’t I?—portrayal of religion is so important and needs to be named, as well as children, the arts, science, and so on. These are often called minority interests but in fact, because something is of interest to minorities does not mean that the majority should not be aware of what those interests are. Whenever we talk about religious broadcasting —I refer to my previous interest as the chairman of the Sandford St Martin Trust for nine years—it is not about proselytism or propagating a particular world view; it is recognising that you cannot live in the world and understand it if you do not understand religion. That should be obvious, given what is going on in the world at the moment. We cannot understand the Sunni/Shia divide and how that impacts on politics in the United Kingdom if we do not get informed and educated about that. So it is not about proselytism; it is about education, social cohesion and so on.

That raises another question that I wish to put at this point. How is Ofcom supposed to be able to report on whether PSBs are fulfilling their remit if there are no metrics in the Bill to say what fulfilment of the remit might be? At Second Reading we were told that it will be left to “flexibility”. Flexibility is as flexible as you want it to be, but it is quite possible to go through a whole year and just have a subjective account of what constitutes, for example, religious broadcasting or children’s broadcasting, which puts it into a narrow silo and which, for example, counts out entertainment as a medium for these things. If there are no metrics, how are we and Ofcom to know whether the remit has been fulfilled? I have been told that it cannot be the number of hours you allot to a particular genre, or a percentage quota. I am very happy with that, but what are the metrics going to be? There have to be some; otherwise, it is totally subjective.

We can speak nobly about creative industries, the creative process and what ought to constitute public service broadcasting, but if we do not put some detail in and nail down those things, name the genres and say something about metrics other than flexibility, we cannot guarantee that the remit is being fulfilled.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support all my noble friend Lady Bull’s amendments.

The world has changed somewhat since about a century ago. My great-grandfather, Stanley Baldwin, who was the then Prime Minister, would go round to Cowley Street, just around the corner, sit down with Sir John Reith, as he then was, and discuss in some detail exactly how best to use the radio to deliver what he wanted to deliver. He was the first Prime Minister to use public sector broadcasting as a means of mass communication to the electorate. Things have moved on somewhat since then, to the extent that I believe that in recent times certain members of the Cabinet have even refused to appear on the public sector broadcaster, which is a strange development, to put it mildly.

I did some research, and I do not think it is an accident that 43% of the 35 speakers at Second Reading referred directly to the issue we are talking about in this group of amendments. If one wants a metric for the depth, strength and breadth of feeling across the House about this set of principles, that is evidence enough.

Media Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, like everybody who has spoken, I welcome the Bill. It must be a joy to be on the Front Bench for the Department for Culture—unlike being on the Front Bench for the Home Office. I think we all wish that it could have come earlier, but the conundrum in this sector is that, whenever it comes along, it will almost certainly already be out of date. This sector is moving so quickly and in so many directions simultaneously that, whatever our best efforts, we will always be following, rather than leading—but better late than never.

I will speak briefly on three areas: first, the challenge of understanding, mapping, decoding and anticipating such dynamic sectors; secondly, the enormous cultural, financial and political advantages of being the creator and home of one of the world’s most highly regarded public sector broadcasters; and, thirdly, the need for consistency and clarity of approach on child protection, an issue that quite rightly took up an awful lot of our time last year when we discussed the Online Safety Bill.

First, so much of the online world, which is now the principal driver and flywheel of modern media, is being tweaked, transformed and disrupted by the propellant of technology. This will be amplified and accelerated in ways that we can scarcely imagine by the effects of artificial intelligence. I wonder how our successors in Parliament in 25 years’ time will view the framing, ambition and content of the Bill. I am broadly supportive, much to my surprise—I can feel the much-missed and lamented Lord Judge raising his eyebrows as I say this—of some of the Henry VIII powers in the Bill, since speed of response and action to adapt will be essential to this legislation remaining relevant and effective. Part of me wonders, however, whether we will be regarded as well-intentioned dinosaurs attempting to craft evolution as we would wish it to be, rather than as it will actually happen. We must have mechanisms to enable Parliament to have appropriate oversight in real time.

Others have spoken about the need to future-proof the Bill. It will never be perfect, but I think we need to spend much more time than perhaps the Government have anticipated in trying to think through the ramifications of the way that this world is evolving.

Other noble Lords have mentioned—indeed, the Labour Front Bench very kindly came to the Cross-Bench meeting today, and this was one issue we all agreed on—that we lack an overarching strategy and vision for media and communications in this country. Such a strategy and vision need to be completely apolitical but that we can all understand and sign up to. I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, spoke to great effect in that area.

Secondly, I suspect all of us have had the BBC, in its myriad forms, as a constant backdrop to our life. It permeates our individual and collective memories, marks key milestones and transition points, and is generally regarded, not just by us but, importantly, by citizens of other countries, as not just a national treasure but a benchmark for public sector broadcasting excellence and a tangible element in how they view our culture, politics and place in the world.

Like others who have spoken, particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Kidron and Lady Foster, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, I am worried by the decision to narrow the public sector broadcasting remit across a range of genres. I acknowledge that to maintain standards and high-quality output across such a broad range of genres is challenging at the best of times, and now is certainly not the best of times, but it is the very breadth and accumulated knowledge and experience across these genres which make the BBC so much more than a news broadcaster with add-ons. They give it cultural heft and a rich history and are a key element in building the creative industries which are such a vital part of our economy. I put it to the Minister and those on the Benches behind him and in his party that if anything should be a poster child for levelling up, it is our public service broadcasting, which is effective right across the United Kingdom and outside.

I am not going to sing, but I think the singer-songwriter Joni Mitchell encapsulated what many of us feel when she wrote, I think in 1970,

“Don’t it always seem to go

That you don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone”.

I am sure that your Lordships will be diligent and persuasive in mapping and articulating the dangers in discarding and diluting so much of value: we can be rather profligate in taking things for granted and not acknowledging its true worth.

Thirdly, when it comes to child protection, I am uncomfortably aware that this generation of under-18s is the most technically savvy in history, and the generations ahead will be even more so. If they wish to gain access to content of almost any kind, they will invariably find ways that all the best efforts of legislators, regulators and platforms had not anticipated. Let us be realistic: that is the world we live in. How do we deal with this? We must acknowledge the reality that we are always going to be reactive rather than proactive. I think we need to find ways of involving young people very directly as we look at this world and understand it; they have a far better understanding of it than we do. We must work very closely with other international jurisdictions, platforms and regulators; working together, learning from one another and acknowledging, above all, that the online and media worlds which children inhabit are borderless. It is futile for any nation state to proudly declare that somehow we are going to build a Trump-like wall around us and everything within it will be wonderful. The world is not like that.

I look forward to our discussions and to working across the House with other noble Lords in trying to ensure greater parity of approach across child safety. I do not think that there is a silver bullet; we can and must do better, but I am concerned that, as we pile more and more responsibility on to Ofcom, we are perhaps being unrealistic in our expectations. We need to be careful not to delegate a lot of responsibility for what we are trying to do to a regulator that is going rapidly into territory in which it has not hitherto had much experience. Like most of us, it is unlikely to get everything right first time.

BBC Funding

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, given that a full-scale rebellion is under way against my noble friend Lord Harlech’s—

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the time allowed for the Statement has elapsed.

Online Safety Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 10th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford]

My Lords, as often, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and to support this group of amendments, especially those to which I put my name. I thank the Minister and the Secretary of State for the many amendments they are introducing, including in the last group, on which I was not able to speak for similar reasons to other noble Lords. I especially note Amendment 1, which makes safety by design the object of the Bill and makes implicit the amendments that we are speaking to this afternoon, each of which is consistent with that object of safety by design running through the Bill.

As others have said, this is an immensely complex Bill, and anything which introduces clarity for the technology companies and the users is to be welcomed. I particularly welcome the list in Amendment 281F, which the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has already read aloud and which spells out very clearly the harm which results from functionality as well as content. It is imperative to have that in the Bill.

In Committee, I referred to the inequality of harms between the user of a service and the forces arrayed against them. You may like to imagine a child of eight, 12 or 15 using one of the many apps we are discussing this afternoon. Now imagine the five As as forces arrayed against them; they are all about functionality, not content. We must consider: the genius of the advertising industry, which is designed on a commercial basis for sales and profit; the fact that processes, applications and smartphones mean that there is 24/7 access to those who use these services and that there is no escape from them; the creation of addictions by various means of rewarding particular features, which have little to do with content and everything to do with design and function; the creative use of algorithms, which will often be invisible and undetectable to adult users and certainly invisible to children; and the creation of the generation of more harms through artificial intelligence, deep fakes and all the harms resulting from functionality. Advertising, access, addiction, algorithms and artificial intelligence are multiplying harms in a range of ways, which we have heard discussed so movingly today.

The quantity of harm means the socialisation, normalisation and creation of environments which are themselves toxic online and which would be completely unacceptable offline. I very much hope, alongside others, that the Government will give way on these amendments and build the naming of functionality and harm into the Bill.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak, in part, to two amendments with my name on them and which my noble friend Lady Kidron referred to: Amendments 46 and 90 on the importance of dissemination and not just content.

A more effective way of me saying the same thing differently is to personalise it by trying to give your Lordships an understanding of the experience taking place, day in, day out, for many young people. I address this not only to the Minister and the Bill team but, quite deliberately, to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. I know full well that the Bill has been many years in gestation and, because the online world, technology and now AI are moving so fast, it is almost impossible for the Bill and its architecture to keep pace with them. But that is not a good reason for not listening to and accepting the force of the argument which my noble friend Lady Kidron and many others have put forward.

Last week, on the first day on Report, when we were speaking to a group of amendments, I spoke to your Lordships about a particular functionality called dark patterns, which are a variety of different features built into the design of these platforms to drive more and more volume and usage.

The individual whose journey I will be describing is called Milly. Milly is online and she accepts an automatic suggestion that is on a search bar. Let us say it is about weight loss. She starts to watch videos that she would not otherwise have found. The videos she is watching are on something called infinite scroll, so one just follows another that follows another, potentially ad infinitum. To start off, she is seeing video after video of people sharing tips about dieting and showing how happy they are after losing weight. As she scrolls and interacts, the women she sees mysteriously seem to get thinner and thinner. The platform’s content dispersal strategy—if indeed it has one, because not all do—that tempers the power of the algorithm has not yet kicked in. The Bill does not address this because, individually, not a single one of the videos Milly has been watching violates the definition of primary priority content. Coding an algorithm to meet a child’s desire to view increasingly thin women is what they are doing.

The videos that Milly sees are captioned with a variety of hashtags such as #thinspo, #thighgap and #extremeweightloss. If she clicks on those, she will find more extreme videos and will start to click on the accounts that have posted the content. Suddenly, she is exposed to the lives of people who are presenting disordered eating not just as normal but as aspirational. Developmentally, Milly is at an age where she does not have the critical thinking skills to evaluate what she is seeing. She has entered a world that she is too young to understand and would never have found were it not for the design of the platform. Throughout her journey thus far, she has yet to see a single video that meets the threshold of primary priority harm content. This world is the result of cumulative design harms.

She follows some of the accounts that prompts the platform to recommend similar accounts. Many of the accounts recommended to her are even more extreme. They are managed by people who have active eating disorders but see what is known as their pro-ana status—that is, pro anorexia—as a lifestyle choice rather than a mental health issue. These accounts are very savvy about the platform’s community guidelines, so the videos and the language they use are coded specifically to avoid detection.

Every aspect of the way Milly is interacting with the platform has now been polluted. It is not just the videos she sees. It is the autocomplete suggestions she gets on searches. It is the algorithmically determined account recommendations. It is the design strategies that make it impossible for her to stop scrolling. It is the notifications she receives encouraging her back to the platform to watch yet another weight-loss video or follow yet another account. It is the filters and effects she is offered before she posts. It is the number of likes her videos get. It goes on and on, and the Bill as it is stands will fail Milly. This is why I am talking directly to the Minister and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, because they need to sort this out.

Earlier on this afternoon, before we began this debate, I was talking to an associate professor in digital humanities at UCL, Dr Kaitlyn Regehr. We were talking about incels—involuntary celibates—and the strange world they live in, and she made a comment. This is a quote that I wrote down word for word because it struck me. She said:

“One off-day seeds the algorithm. The algorithm will focus on that and amplify that one off-day”—


that one moment when we click on something and suddenly it takes us into a world and in a direction that we had no idea existed but, more importantly, because of the way these are designed, we feel we have no control over. We really must do something about this.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to support the amendments in the names of the intrepid noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford. They fit hand in hand with the amendments that have just been debated in the previous group. Sadly, I was unable to take part in that debate because of a technical ruling, but I thank the Minister for his kind words and thank other noble Lords for what they have said. But my heart is broken, because they included age verification, for which I have campaigned for the past 12 years, and I wanted to thank the Government for finally accepting that children need to be protected from online harmful content, pornography being one example; it is the gateway to many other harms.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the final issue I raised in Committee is dealt with in this group on so-called proportionality. I tabled amendments in Committee to ensure that under Part 3 no website or social media service with pornographic content could argue that it should be exempt from implementing age verification under Clause 11 because to do so would be disproportionate based on its size and capacity. I am pleased today to be a co-signatory to Amendment 39 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to do just that.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, have also tabled amendments which raise similar points. I am disappointed that despite all the amendments tabled by the Minister, the issue of proportionality has not been addressed; maybe he will give us some good news on that this evening. It feels like the job is not quite finished and leaves an unnecessary and unhelpful loophole.

I will not repeat all the arguments I made in Committee in depth but will briefly recap that we all know that in the offline world, we expect consistent regulation regardless of size when it comes to protecting children. We do not allow a small corner shop to act differently from a large supermarket on the sale of alcohol or cigarettes. In a similar online scenario, we do not expect small or large gambling websites to regulate children’s access to gambling in a different way.

We know that the impact of pornographic content on children is the same whether it is accessed on a large pornographic website or a small social media platform. We know from the experience of France and Germany that pornographic websites will do all they can to evade age verification. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said on the eighth day of Committee, whether pornography

“comes through a Part 3 or Part 5 service, or accidently through a blog or some other piece of information, it has to be stopped. We do not want our children to receive it. That must be at the heart of what we are about, and not just something we think about as we go along”.—[Official Report, 23/5/23; col. 821.]

By not shutting off the proportionality argument, the Government are allowing different-sized online services to act differently on pornography and all the other primary priority content, as I raised in Committee. At that stage, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said,

“we do not need to take a proportionate approach to pornography”.—[Official Report, 2/5/23; col. 1481.]

Amendment 39 would ensure that pornographic content is treated as a separate case with no loopholes for implementing age verification based on size and capacity. I urge the Minister to reflect on how best we can close this potential loophole, and I look forward to his concluding remarks.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly address Amendments 43 and 87 in my name. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for adding their names to these amendments. They are complementary to the others in this group, on which the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, have spoken.

In Committee the Minister argued that it would be unfair to place the same child safety duties across all platforms. He said:

“This provision recognises that what it is proportionate to require of providers at either end of that scale will be different”.—[Official Report, 2/5/23; col. 1443.]


Think back to the previous group of amendments we debated. We talked about functionality and the way in which algorithms drive these systems. They drive you in all directions—to a large platform with every bell and whistle you might anticipate because it complies with the legislation, but also, willy-nilly, without any conscious thought because that is how it is designed, to a much smaller site. If we do not amend the legislation as it stands, they will take you to smaller sites that do not require the same level of safety duties, particularly towards children. I think we all fail to understand the logic behind that argument.

Online Safety Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 6th July 2023 Lords Chamber

This is not going away. Germany exempts non-profit organisations. France has recently passed laws with similar scope to ours and has exempted those entities which operate in the public interest. There is nothing strange about doing what I and the noble Lord, Lord Allan, want to do. This will not go away, because the consequences could be very severe. It is not a question of whether Wikipedia will close. Wikipedia in the English language will probably survive all of this. It has a lot of people supporting it and a lot of volunteers working for it. However, what of many of the minor languages? Wait until the Government find out whether Welsh Wikipedia, the largest Welsh-language website in the world, will survive and the consequences. What will the Government say when they start getting letters? “Oh, it’s nothing to do with us, we have no answer for that, it’s all a matter for Ofcom”. This is a completely unsustainable position. It is indefensible for us in Parliament to let it pass and it is completely unsustainable for the Government. Some action must be taken.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 281 to 281B. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding and Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for adding their names to them. I will deal first with Amendments 281 and 281B, then move to 281A.

On Amendments 281 and 281B, the Minister will recall that in Committee we had a discussion around how functionality is defined in the Bill and that a great deal of the child risk assessments and safety duties must have regard to functionality, as defined in Clause 208. However, as it is currently written, this clause appears to separate out functionalities of user-to-user services and search services. These two amendments are designed to adjust that slightly, to future-proof the Bill.

Why is this necessary? First, it reflects that it is likely that in the future, many of the functionalities that we currently see on user-to-user services will become present on search services and possibly vice versa. Therefore, we need to try to take account of how the world is likely to move. Secondly, this is already happening, and it poses a risk to children. Some research done by the 5Rights Foundation has found that “predictive search”, counted in the Bill as a search service functionality, is present on social media websites, leading one child user using a search bar to be presented in nanoseconds with prompts associated with eating disorders. In Committee, the Minister noted that the functionalities listed in this clause are non-exhaustive. At the very least, it would be helpful to clarify this in the Bill language.

Amendment 281A would add specific functionalities which we know are addictive or harmful to children and put them in the Bill. We have a great deal of research and evidence which demonstrates how persuasive certain design strategies are with children. These are features which are solely designed to keep users on the platform, at any cost, as much as possible and for as long as possible. The more that children are on the platform, the more harm they are likely to suffer. Given that the purpose of this Bill is for services to be safe by design, as set out usefully in Amendment 1, please can we make sure that where we know—and we do know—that risk exists, we are doing our utmost to tackle it?

The features that are listed in this amendment are known as “dark patterns”—and they are known as “dark patterns” for a very good reason. They have persuasive and pervasive design features which are deliberately baked into the design of the digital services and products, to capture and hold, in this case, children’s attention, and to create habitual, even compulsive behaviours. The damage this does to children is proven and palpable. For example, one of the features mentioned is infinite scroll, which is now ubiquitous on most major social media platforms. The inventor of infinite scroll, a certain Aza Raskin, who probably thought it was a brilliant idea at the time, has said publicly that he now deeply regrets ever introducing it, because of the effect it is having on children.

One of the young people who spoke to the researchers at 5Rights said of the struggle they have daily with the infinite scroll feature:

“Scrolling forever gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. I’m so aware of how little control I have and the feeling of needing to be online is overwhelming and consuming”.


Features designed to keep users—adults, maybe fine, but children not fine—online at any cost are taking a real toll. Managing public and frequent interactions online, which the features encourage, creates the most enormous pressures for young people, and with that comes anxiety, low self-esteem and mental health challenges. This is only increasing, and unless we are very specific about these, they are going to continue.

We have the evidence. We know what poses harm and risk to children. Please can we make sure that this is reflected accurately in the Bill?

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support many of the amendments in this group. I will start with Amendments 281, 281A and 281B in the name of my noble friend Lord Russell, to which I have added my name. The noble Lord set out the case very well. I will not reiterate what he said, but it is simply the case that the features and functionalities of regulated companies should not be separated by search and user-to-user but should apply across any regulated company that has that feature. There is no need to worry about a company that does not have one of the features on the list, but it is a much more dangerous thing to have an absent feature than it is to have a single list and hold companies responsible for their features.

Only this morning, Meta released Thread as its challenger to Twitter. In the last month, Snapchat added generative AI to its offering. Instagram now does video, and TikTok does shopping. All these companies are moving into a place where they would like to be the one that does everything. That is their commercial endgame, and that is where the Bill should set its sights.

Separating out functionality and, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, said, failing to add what we already know, puts the Bill in danger of looking very old before the ink is dry. I believe it unnecessarily curtails Ofcom in being able to approach the companies for what they are doing, rather than for what the Bill thought they might be doing at this point. So, if the Minister is not in a position to agree to the amendment, I urge him at least to take it away and have a look at it, because it is a technical rather than an ideological matter. It would be wonderful to fix it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

My Lords, our debate on this group is on the topic of priority harms to children. It is not one that I have engaged in so I tread carefully. One reason why I have not engaged in this debate is because I have left it to people who know far more about it than I do; I have concentrated on other parts of the Bill.

In the context of this debate, one thing has come up on which I feel moved to make a short contribution: misinformation and disinformation content. There was an exchange between my noble friend Lady Harding and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on this issue. Because I have not engaged on the topic of priority harms, I genuinely do not have a position on what should and should not be featured. I would not want anybody to take what I say as support for or opposition to any of these amendments. However, it is important for us to acknowledge that, as much as misinformation and disinformation are critical issues—particularly for children and young people because, as the right reverend Prelate said, the truth matters—we cannot, in my view, ignore the fact that misinformation and disinformation have become quite political concepts. They get used in a way where people often define things that they do not agree with as misinformation—that is, opinions are becoming categorised as misinformation.

We are now putting this in legislation and it is having an impact on content, so it is important, too, that we do not just dismiss that kind of concern as not relevant because it is real. That is all I wanted to say.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly as I know that we are waiting for a Statement.

If you talk to colleagues who know a great deal about the harm that is happening and the way in which platforms operate, as well as to colleagues who talk directly to the platforms, one thing that you commonly hear from them is a phrase that often recurs when they talk to senior people about some of the problems here: “I never thought of that before”. That is whether it is about favourites on Snapchat, which cause grief in friendship groups, about the fact that, when somebody leaves a WhatsApp group, it flags up who that person is—who wants to be seen as the person who took the decision to leave?—or about the fact that a child is recommended to other children even if the company does not know whether they are remotely similar.

If you are 13, you are introduced as a boy to Andrew Tate; if you are a girl, you might be introduced to a set of girls who may or may not share anorexia content, but they dog-whistle and blog. The companies are not deliberately orchestrating these outcomes—it is the way they are designed that is causing those consequences—but, at the moment, they take no responsibility for what is happening. We need to reflect on that.

I turn briefly to a meeting that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and I were at yesterday afternoon, which leads neatly on to some of the comments the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, made, a few moments ago about the far right. The meeting was convened by Luke Pollard MP and was on the strange world known as the manosphere, which is the world of incels—involuntary celibates. As your Lordships may be aware, on various occasions, certain individuals who identify as that have committed murder and other crimes. It is a very strange world.

Online Safety Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

I look forward to listening to the Minister. I pay honour to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for the work she has done. I am glad that she has had conversations because I am still waiting for the Minister to answer my letters. These families should not be here fighting for justice for their loved ones. We should be trying to make their life a bit better, to give them a healthier lifestyle and to understand. I hope the Minister will come up with something good because if there are further gaps, we need to challenge him once again to ensure that we do not fail the families who are listening to us today.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, following on from the excellent points that the noble Baroness has made, I want to pursue the same direction. In this group of amendments we are essentially trying to reduce the incidence of tragedies such as those that the families there in the Gallery have experienced and trying to ensure that no one—that is probably unrealistic, but at least far fewer people—will have the same experience.

I particularly want to focus the Minister and the Bill team on trying to think through how to ensure that, as and when something tragic happens, what happens to the families faced with that—the experience that they have and the help that I hope in future they will be able to receive—will make it a less traumatic, lonely and baffling experience than it clearly has been to date.

At the heart of this, we are talking about communication; about the relationship between Ofcom and the platforms; probably about the relationships between platforms and other platforms, in sharing knowledge; about the relationship between Ofcom and government; about the relationship between Ofcom and regulators in other jurisdictions; and about the relationship between our Government and other Governments, including, most importantly, the Government in the US, where so many of these platforms are based. There is a network of communication that has to work. By its very nature, trying to capture something as all-encompassing as that in primary legislation will in some ways be out of date before it even hits the statute book. It is therefore incredibly important that there is a dynamic information-sharing and analytics process to understand what is going on in the online world, and what the experience is of individuals who are interacting with that world.

That brings me neatly back to an amendment that we have previously discussed, which I suspect the noble Viscount sitting on the Front Bench will remember in painful detail. When we were talking about the possibility of having an independent ombudsman to go to, what we heard from all around the House was, “Where do we go? If we have gone to the platforms and through the normal channels but are getting nowhere, where do we go? Are we on our own?”. The answer that we felt we were getting a few weeks ago was, “That’s it, you’ve got to lump it”. That is simply not acceptable.

I ask the Minister and the Bill team to ensure that there is recognition of the dynamic nature of what we are dealing with. We cannot capture it in primary legislation. I hope we cannot capture it in secondary instruments either; speaking as a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, we have quite enough of them as it is so we do not want any more, thank you very much. However, it is incredibly important that the Government think about a dynamic form of having up-to-date information so that they and all the other parties in this area know what is going on.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments. I pay tribute to the families who I see are watching us as we debate this important group. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Newlove, who has just given one of the most powerful speeches in the full 10 days of Committee.

The real sadness is that we are debating what happens when things go horribly wrong. I thank my noble friend the Minister and the Secretary of State, who is currently on leave, for the very collaborative way in which I know they have approached trying to find the right package—we are all waiting for him to stand up and speak to show us this. Very often, Governments do not want to give concessions early in the process of a Bill going through because they worry that those of us campaigning for concessions will then ask for more. In this case, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, has just pointed to, all we are asking for in this Bill is to remember that a concession granted here helps only when things have gone horribly wrong.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, what we really want is a safer internet, where fewer children die. I reiterate the comments that she made at the end of her speech: as we have gone through Committee, we have all learned how interconnected the Bill is. It is fantastic that we will be able to put changes into it that will enable bereaved families not to have to follow the path that the Russells and all the other bereaved families campaigning for this had to follow—but that will not be enough. We also need to ensure that we put in place the safety-by-design amendments that we have been discussing. I argue that one of the most important is the one that the noble Lord, Lord Russell, has just referenced: when you already know that your child is in trouble but you cannot get help, unfortunately no one wants then to be able to say, “It’s okay. Bereaved families have what they need”. We need to do more than that.

Online Safety Bill

Lord Russell of Liverpool Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I personally think that it is pessimistic view of the future to suggest that humanity cannot rise to the task of being able to distinguish between deep fakes and real images. Organising all our lives, laws and liberties around the deviant predilections of a minority of sexual offenders on the basis that none of us will be able to tell the difference in the future, when it comes to that kind of activity, is rather dangerous for freedom and innovation.

[Lord Russell of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly. I could disagree with much of what the noble Baroness just said, but I do not need to go there.

What particularly resonates with me today is that, since I first entered your Lordships’ House at the tender age of 28 in 1981, this is the first time I can ever remember us having to rein back what we are discussing because of the presence of young people in the Public Gallery. I reflect on that, because it brings home the gravity of what we are talking about and its prevalence; we cannot run away or hide from it.

I will ask the Minister about the International Regulatory Cooperation for a Global Britain: Government Response to the OECD Review of International Regulatory Cooperation of the UK, published 2 September 2020. He will not thank me for that, because I am sure that he is already familiar and word-perfect with this particular document, which was pulled together by his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan. I raise this because, to think that we can in any way, shape or form, with this piece of legislation, stem the tide of what is happening in the online world—which is happening internationally on a global basis and at a global level—by trying to create regulatory and legal borders around our benighted island, is just for the fairies. It is not going to happen.

Can the Minister tell us about the degree to which, at an international level, we are proactively talking to, and learning from, other regulators in different jurisdictions, which are battling exactly the same things that we are? To concentrate the Minister’s mind, I will point out what the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, committed the Government to doing nearly three years ago. First, in relation to international regulatory co-operation, the Government committed to

“developing a whole-of-government IRC strategy, which sets out the policies, tools and respective roles of different departments and regulators in facilitating this; … developing specific tools and guidance to policy makers and regulators on how to conduct IRC; and … establishing networks to convene international policy professionals from across government and regulators to share experience and best practice on IRC”.

I am sure that, between now and when he responds, he will be given a detailed answer by the Bill team, so that he can tell us exactly where the Government, his department and Ofcom are in carrying out the commitments of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, although I arrived a little late, I will say, very briefly, that I support the amendments wholeheartedly. I support them because I see this as a child protection issue. People viewing AI, I believe, will lead to them going out to find real children to sexually abuse. I will not take up any more time, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything that has been said, apart from what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said. I hope that the Minister will look very seriously at the amendments and take them into consideration.