Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill

Lord Robathan Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 18th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I shall not detain the House long nor repeat everything that has already been said, because it would be quite unnecessary. I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Bew, and I agree entirely with what he said: there is no alternative to this legislation. That is unfortunate but true.

I think this is the first occasion on which we have debated Northern Ireland business since the death of Lord Carswell, a former Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. I raise his death and pay tribute to him because I remember being here during the Brexit debates, which were long, monotonous and varied, when he spoke about his childhood in Belfast and how he could bicycle down from Belfast to Dublin and never saw a border or a border guard. That was in his lifetime. We talked a lot of nonsense about how there might be a hard border in Northern Ireland, but there has never been a hard border across the island of Ireland. Friends of mine spent many years trying to stop illegal border crossings, mostly smuggling and terrorist-related, across the internal border, and they completely failed.

One should remember what Lord Carswell said because this is partly behind the whole issue about the Windsor Framework. My view is that the Windsor Framework is flawed but it is the best deal we will get. In addition, we live in the art of the possible; that is what the Windsor Framework is. In politics, much as we might wish to, we do not always get our own way on everything. I deprecate the fact that the European Union should have anything to do with a sovereign part of the United Kingdom, but that is the situation we are in.

To move on slightly to the broader issue, I very much deprecate the fact that Sinn Féin is the largest party in the Assembly now—or it would be if the Assembly was sitting. I hate it. Sinn Féin was always described as the political wing of the IRA, and I think it still is. Because of that, it sticks in my craw that anybody should vote for Sinn Féin, although a lot of very decent people do. The IRA is now somewhat romanticised in Northern Ireland, but in fact it is a bunch of ghastly, murderous thugs, and we should remember that—starting with Gerry Adams, who, not in this world but perhaps in the next, should answer for the deaths of people such as Jean McConville. However, I say to my fellow unionists that we live in the world as it is and we are in the art of the possible.

I will not digress too far, but after 1997, many people in the Conservative Party wished to go back and say, “Why didn’t these stupid people, the electorate, vote for us?” Finally, however, we worked out that you do not blame the electorate—you blame yourselves for why people do not vote for you. I say to my fellow unionists, we have to change. The world changes; we all have to change—unbelievably, I am less hard-line than I was. I say to my fellow unionists that we need political leadership to understand how to get the electorate’s confidence back, and political leadership to go back into the Assembly so that we have an Executive in Northern Ireland. For all its defects, that is the best way forward.

Windsor Framework (Democratic Scrutiny) Regulations 2023

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

I look forward to the Minister’s replies to these points and his assurances, if possible. Meanwhile, I will vote against this fatal amendment and in support of the overall framework.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, there is a much-overused and rather ghastly cliché: “we are where we are”. As a unionist who absolutely supports Ireland in the union and as somebody who voted to leave the European Union, it frankly sticks in my craw that the EU maintains some rule over the United Kingdom. This is not what people voted to leave the European Union for and, frankly, it shows dogmatic behaviour by the European Union which I think is unfortunate; indeed, unfriendly. However, we are where we are.

I congratulate my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on his great skill in negotiation; he has done an extremely good job. The Windsor Framework is not perfect—goodness, it most certainly is not, and we have heard from all sides of the House what is wrong with it—but I really believe that it is a good step in the right direction. It is helping our relations with the European Union, which have been somewhat fraught, shall we say, and it is calming people down. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has just said, it appears that the majority of people in the Province wish it to succeed. I for one will therefore certainly back this statutory instrument.

Before I sit down, may I just nail one canard? The idea that there will be a physical border on the island of Ireland is for the birds. For those who know Northern Ireland, there are some 320 crossing points—I may have got that wrong; if so, somebody will correct me —and my colleagues in the British Army, when I was serving there, spent a great deal of time trying to stop the crossing points, without any success whatever. It is the same now: there is smuggling across the border as we speak. Before either the Republic or we joined the EU, there was no border. We do not want to put up a border. If there were to be one, it would have to be put up by the Irish or by the EU, and it will not happen.

This framework is of course not perfect—in fact, it is quite a lot less than that. However, it is a good step in the right direction and for that reason, I am sorry that the DUP has put forward a fatal amendment to the Motion. I understand why it has done so, but we would do better to support the framework, because it is a good way forward.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the Windsor Framework. I have some issues with the Stormont brake, but this discussion today has centred on the principle of democracy. I am opposed to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, supported by his colleagues, because explicit and implicit in that amendment, and in our discussions today, is the principle of democracy. I live in Northern Ireland, I am a former public representative in Northern Ireland and I am a democratic Irish nationalist who obviously wants to see a new Ireland, but having said that, I believe that for that to happen there have to be functioning institutions under the Good Friday agreement.

The greatest lack of democracy in Northern Ireland at the moment is the lack of an Assembly, an Executive, a North/South Ministerial Council and a British-Irish Council. I implore the DUP to please get back into government and make sure that the Windsor Framework can work, because the people of Northern Ireland currently face very high waiting lists for health, a crumbling education system and budgets that have not been defined because there is no Government in place. For that to happen, there need to be an Executive and an Assembly.

Please, listen to the people, because the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland support the framework. They want to get on with business. I can say that the many people that I talk to right across the political spectrum are sorely fed up with the lack of political institutions and the fact that nobody can seem to make a decision. It is left to the Secretary of State, who is with us today, to make decisions in relation to budgets and put that type of responsibility with senior civil servants and Permanent Secretaries in government departments, who do not like that role because they could be forced into making political decisions.

I shall move on and ask the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Caine, a few questions about the Stormont brake. I have some issues with it because I feel that there is an inbuilt minority veto that could put another type of brake on political progress and on delivering for our economy. I seek assurances today that the Stormont brake could not prevent north-south institutions and bodies working. While the Explanatory Memorandum says that there will be no impact on strand 2, and this is solely the responsibility of strand 1, there is no doubt that there could be EU directives that could have a north-south implication. Therefore, I ask the Minister to outline how it safeguards that in its operation.

Secondly, how will the principle of consent, as enshrined in the Good Friday agreement, which is the constitutional guarantee, be honoured, be accepted and be respected?

Thirdly, in relation to one aspect of the Stormont brake, the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee, I have read the information and the papers from Professor Katy Hayward, who, as my noble friend Lord Hain said, made a speech last week at Birkbeck College. Her paper clearly states that there is no clear role for the Democratic Scrutiny Committee with respect to the pulling of the Stormont brake. Therefore, is it involved in engagement, or is it like a normal scrutiny committee, in terms of taking evidence from stakeholders, from other politicians and from Ministers? Is that the committee’s role? I think we need to see some leeway, shall we say, in relation to that issue.

Also, there seems to be no requirement for the Assembly to be fully functioning, although it states in the paper and in the Explanatory Memorandum that it has to be. I want to see evidence that that requires a fully functioning Assembly and Executive to take place. What is the actual process under Article 13(3a) in relation to that?

I am happy to support the framework. I am definitely opposed to the amendment under discussion today, because the greatest democratic deficit for the people of Northern Ireland is the lack of political institutions. Notwithstanding my queries and concerns regarding the Stormont brake, I want to see the framework implemented, because I believe that is the key that will unlock the path to the restoration of political institutions in all the strands of the Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act. I believe that this needs to happen quickly and promptly, and I urge the DUP, which is currently sitting outside those democratic institutions, to quickly see that path to helping the restoration of much-needed institutions in the interests of the wider public in Northern Ireland, whether it is in terms of health, education, the economy or infra- structure.

Northern Ireland: Operation Kenova

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland makes a number of important points. As I said at the outset, Operation Kenova has conducted much commendable work and I pay tribute to the way in which Jon Boutcher has set about his task. The noble Lord probably asks me to go a bit too far in agreeing to amendments before we have even considered Second Reading of the Bill in your Lordships’ House. As he is aware from my record in taking other legislation through this House, I am always prepared to look at any amendment on its merits and give it due consideration. I am very happy to sit down with the noble Lord and any other noble Lords across the House prior to Second Reading to discuss the contents of the Bill.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there can never be any moral equivalence between those who were sent by this Parliament to defend the rule of law—they sometimes made mistakes but they were under a huge amount of pressure—and those who went illegally, with weapons, to murder and cause mayhem?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My noble friend will not be in the least surprised to hear that I agree with his comments entirely. He makes very important and powerful points. There is no moral equivalence between those who set out to uphold the rule of law and defend democracy and those who sought to destroy both. His question gives me the opportunity to place on record once again the enormous debt of gratitude we all owe to the members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, George Cross, and the members of our Armed Forces for their work in Northern Ireland. Of course mistakes were made but, overall, it is a record of which they and we can be very proud.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2022

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on bringing this amendment to the Motion before your Lordships’ House today. In the event that she presses it, I assure her that my colleagues and I will support her.

I have set out my views on the 2020 abortion regulations and 2021 regulations before your Lordships’ House on earlier occasions. My opposition to the 2020 regulations is well known. The Secretary of State himself said in the other place last week that they

“go beyond what is in Great Britain”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 16/6/22; col. 3.]

In April 2021, I said:

“The union has worked hitherto because Parliament has recognised that it cannot be used to impose a uniformity that undermines the key distinctiveness of the component parts.”


I said then that I thought that the 2020 and 2021 regulations

“do not provide grounds for overruling devolution or, more fundamentally, the understandings that make it possible to argue for the relationship that exists between the UK’s four component parts.”—[Official Report, 28/4/21; cols. 2269-70.]

I feel that even more strongly today.

It is extremely regrettable that we find ourselves talking about implementing the 2020 regulations, which were opposed by 79% of those who responded to the Government’s consultation in 2019 and which were not made with any involvement of the devolved Assembly and, as a result, any accountability to the people of Northern Ireland—citizens who have not been granted the right to decide their own abortion law through the representative process. My firm belief that this should be a matter dealt with by the Executive and the Assembly remains true.

Today we are discussing the 2022 regulations, which are already in place and give zero accountability to the people of Northern Ireland and fundamentally alter the Belfast agreement. Whether you agree with the 2020 regulations or not, the methods being used by the Government should make us all stop, pause and ask, “Is this the way we want our democracy operating?” For instance, would this be acceptable in a Scottish or Welsh context? I suspect not.

There is recognition by all three devolved Administrations that there are some matters that need to be dealt with centrally in a united manner; for instance, defence spending. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 recognised that there are times when it is appropriate for the Minister to direct the Executive, but these are narrowly defined in Section 26 as situations of national security or public safety, or where an action is needed under international law. We know that the Northern Ireland Office believes that the 2021 regulations do not fit any of these Section 26 criteria. It said that very explicitly last year in the Explanatory Memorandum, and it was for that reason that the Secretary of State gave himself new powers of direction.

The 1998 Act also acknowledged that matters that are significant to the Northern Ireland community are for the Northern Ireland Executive to decide. The law and policy on abortion fit this criteria, so, rightly, decisions in this area are for the Executive and not for the Minister of Health to make alone. Last year, the Minister took powers to make directions; this year, he has gone further in two respects: first, by saying he can make directions without any reference to the Executive, and secondly, by acting as if he were the Minister for Health and/or the Department of Health. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said that these regulations give “extensive powers” to the Secretary of State, powers that have no accountability to the Northern Ireland electorate. This is a fundamental constitutional change proposed by regulation powers that the Minister confirmed last week he intends to exercise “relatively soon”.

These regulations set a precedent that we need to consider very carefully. They override the constitutional agreement that certain matters should be for the Executive and override the narrow criteria when the Secretary of State can act.

There are political questions to ask about why the Secretary of State is deciding to act now on this issue, when there was no action from the Government to make important decisions for Northern Ireland when the Assembly was suspended for three years. There are very practical questions to be asked and answered. The Secretary of State has made it clear that he intends to take these powers relatively soon, but when he does so how will his powers work alongside those of the Northern Ireland Minister of Health? Who will officials be responsible to and how will they take instructions from Westminster? What if there are conflicting instructions? How will the decisions the Minister says he is going to take affect the budget in the Northern Ireland Executive, and particularly other services that come under the Department of Health? What consequential budget decisions will need to be made by the Minister of Health because of the decisions made by the Secretary of State? How long will the powers last? Will these decisions be ongoing? Will the Minister of Health be constantly looking over his or her shoulder, wondering what decisions the Secretary of State may make in future years that could impact spending on policy?

In the other place, the Minister argued that questions about the budget were irrelevant because there had been a generous 2021 spending review settlement with more funds allocated to Northern Ireland than at any time since devolution. Really? I wish to draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that over the period 2019-20 to 2024-25, the settlement will have been a real-terms increase of only 0.8%. I quote these figures from the 2021 spending review document. Since then, inflation has significantly increased, so it is right that the Northern Ireland Executive are cautious about spending, especially when that increase is compared to the 2.3% real-terms increase for Scotland and a 2.8% increase for Wales. Given this low increase, the Secretary of State may indeed find himself needing to use Regulation 5 to give grants or loans, and it is not clear how the Northern Ireland Executive will be able to fund any repayments. Nor is it clear how there will be transparency, or whether these decisions are good for the rest of the block grant or represent good value for money—a key Treasury principle. These are not theatrical questions. The Department of Health will be facing them very soon.

In summary, these regulations are counter to the devolution settlement. They set a precedent that should be a concern to the other devolved Administrations and will allow actions by the Secretary of State without any democratic accountability. Finally, this decision by government to push ahead with this issue further destabilises the devolution settlement.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the moral dilemma of abortion is a fraught and complex one in which I do not intend to get too involved. In this country, it raises great passions; in the United States of America, it brings about conflict and leads to shootings, which I think we all regret. But it is the termination of life.

Personally, I believe that abortion is often necessary; it may be necessary for a great many reasons. However, I hope we would all regret that last year in the United Kingdom there were more than 200,000 abortions—I think that is right—which means that abortion has just become an extension of contraception, with all the dangers to mothers’ lives, apart from anything else, that go with it.

Although I may regret that, this debate is nothing to do with the morality of abortion. As we have just heard from several speakers, this is to do with the devolution of power to Northern Ireland. Some eight years ago, I worked in the Northern Ireland Office for a year. Devolution is very important. We know there are issues with it, but either we have devolved health to Northern Ireland or we have not. It seems to me that this is a matter of great principle. Notwithstanding any crusades in the House of Commons by one or two people, such as Stella Creasy, this is a matter that must be decided by the people of Northern Ireland. We should not be going there.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I fully support the amendment to the Motion introduced by my noble friend Lady O’Loan. I strongly endorse the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn, and the noble Lords, Lord Robathan and Lord Morrow.

I say gently to my noble friend—for she is my noble friend—Lady Deech that, among the 30 articles of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there is no right to abortion. Article 3, on the other hand, guarantees the right to life itself. All the other rights are worthless without that paramount right to life.

It is fitting that this debate is taking place around an amendment that regrets this Motion because there is so much to regret in what Parliament is being asked to agree. We should register our profound regret for every life that will be lost because of this decision, at suborning the devolution settlement, and for measures that set aside ethical proprieties and are deeply flawed and frankly questionable, not least on the grounds of workability. These regulations are about more than just how abortion services are commissioned in Northern Ireland. They raise serious questions about devolution and highlight key constitutional challenges that go beyond abortion and should be of grave concern to your Lordships’ House, as we have heard. That is where I want to begin.

Today, the key question for your Lordships is this: should the constitution of this country be set aside on the basis of regulations alone, particularly when the regulations in question are vague and fail to set out how and when the power that they confer will be exercised?

I care about this deeply for a number of reasons. I led a delegation to see John Major when he was Prime Minister and urged him to make abortion a devolved matter—an argument that he accepted, as did Tony Blair. That delegation included leading figures from each of the constitutional parties then in the House of Commons, drawn from across the political divide. Indeed, for many years, I have been a parliamentary spokesman on Northern Ireland; I have come to respect and admire the people of Northern Ireland. I passionately believe that their voices deserve to be listened to, and that power-sharing through devolution holds the key to its future.

Each constituent part of the United Kingdom is permitted by virtue of devolution to take decisions that best meet the needs and political outlook of that part of this nation. The people of Northern Ireland have consistently elected to their Assembly people who take a different view concerning abortion than that expressed in other parts of the UK. Although attitudes and voting patterns in Northern Ireland may well change, the new Assembly has been elected only recently and this question is yet to be put to it. The clear constitutional imperative remains: devolved issues should be decided only by the devolved Administrations, who have been given the power to set policy and law for their area. It is arrogant in the extreme to overturn that principle, especially on an issue that is, for millions of people, not a marginal question but, as I have said, about the very right to life itself.

Regulation 2 permits the Secretary of State simply to bypass the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly. The Explanatory Memorandum states that

“a direction given under those Regulations must be complied with irrespective of whether any matter has been brought to the attention of, or discussed and agreed by, the Executive Committee of the Assembly.”

Even if a way forwards is agreed by the Northern Ireland Executive, or indeed the recently elected Assembly, the Secretary of State can simply make any direction he sees fit, even if it is in direct contravention of the decision made by the Executive or Assembly. Even if a majority of elected representatives in Northern Ireland disagree, they will be duty-bound to follow the decision of the Secretary of State. That cannot be right, and as a parliamentarian committed to the principle of devolution, I contest, as I have done in previous debates, this high-handed decision. Surely it would not be tolerated if it was in Scotland or Wales, and it should not be tolerated in Northern Ireland either. To set aside devolution and all it entails by statute would be bad enough, but to do so through regulation, regardless of whether it is technically legally permissible, is troubling indeed.

Horizon 2020

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I always believe that those best equipped to lead should lead, whether that be within the EU or across the wider globe. There has been a decline in our participation, and that is a measure of what we have been going through of late, but the excellence remains and the leadership should remain with the excellent.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

Has my noble friend noticed that a lot of the perfectly reasonable questions that he has addressed have been trying to second-guess what will happen in the negotiations. Surely, now that we are leaving the EU, we will be able to co-operate with our friends and neighbours across the channel on all these programmes, including Horizon.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

This Government intend to continue with an association agreement. Science is vital and it must therefore be worked on with the best possible collaboration. That is our ambition. It is what we will seek to deliver in the negotiations and we will be judged accordingly.

Spending Round 2019

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I see the House filling up, although I am not sure that it is filling up for my speech. I know that it is traditional to say this but, having listened to almost all the speeches, I genuinely heard some very interesting ones. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, with whom I do not agree entirely on everything, made some interesting points. I reassure my noble friend Lord Cormack that I agree with him that this is a very serious constitutional crisis—perhaps not on everything else.

It has also been interesting to see that the Opposition—the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party—are opposing the end of austerity. I thought that they had been against it from the very beginning. I will say one thing about the reason that we had the unfortunate—I agree that it was unfortunate—austerity programme, for want of a better term. When we took office in 2010—I was a Minister at the time—there was a serious issue with the public finances. The Liberal Democrats agreed at the time that we had to sort it out. To a certain extent, although not totally, we have done pretty well on that over the last nine years. Some mistakes were made and I will turn to a couple now. On the spending round, there are two issues that I want to particularly concentrate on.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

The Opposition, as far as I know, have not said that they do not welcome an end to austerity. They just have a very different vision of what it looks like.

[Lord Robathan]

Various people from the other side have commented that the Government need to be careful about how much money they spend. I agree with that, as it happens.

The first point that I want to make is about the police and the criminal justice system. I have had experience of the criminal justice system from going to courts recently, and Westminster Magistrates’ Court in particular; I hasten to add that I was not in the dock. It was quite shocking because of cuts to the court services. In particular, there were temporary staff who did not know the answers to pretty simple questions. I found that pretty worrying.

With regards to the police, I think all noble Lords can agree that the police were cut far too far and, while I do not necessarily make a direct correlation, there has been, it appears to me—noble Lords may contradict me—an upsurge in knife crime. Every day we see, particularly in London, young people being killed with knives. There must be some small connection, if not direct correlation, between that and the fact that the police are rather overstretched. After all, we have pretty full employment and, traditionally, that has led to fewer idle hands and less petty crime, so I welcome the extra spending—a 6.3% increase. It should never have been reduced so far and the idea of having 20,000 extra police officers, assuming that they are well employed and well directed, is one that we can all welcome.

I take the point made by the right reverend Prelate—I think it was his point—that we need to make sure that we think not just about prison places but about rehabilitation as well. We have this day Long Lartin rioting and that, again, to a certain extent, must be because prison officers are stretched. We also see, interestingly, that the Prison Service, as I read today in the Times, I think, is in the top 100—possibly number 49—professions chosen by graduates today, a rather encouraging sign.

The second point I would like to introduce is defence. I was a Minister during the SDSR in 2010. I argued against some of the savage cuts; indeed, I even raised the matter with the then Prime Minister. I welcome the extra £2.2 billion as a good start—but where shall we start? We are looking now at Iran and the threat from drones that appear to have been used to attack tankers in the Middle East, and that will affect us all. We are looking at Yemen and the attacks on Saudi Arabia. Again, this has the potential to spread. We are looking at a belligerent Russia in Crimea, the Ukraine and Salisbury. We are looking at China, which is not an enemy, but it is spreading in the Spratly Islands. I was not here at the beginning of this month because I was in Ethiopia, and I can tell you that China is buying Africa. It is quite straightforward: it is throwing money at Africa, Sri Lanka and other places, and buying them. We need to be very cognisant of that, and be prepared for it and for all eventualities. We do not want another Cold War with Russia, but the behaviour of President Putin is—I think all noble Lords will agree—fairly worrying. I do not want to go into the topic of North Korea, but again, there are problems. An old Latin adage is, “Si vis pacem, para bellum”—that is how we pronounced it in my prep school anyway—“If you want peace, prepare for war”. I think we need to consider that a bit further, so I welcome the spending, although I would probably go further.

Finally, on spending, I will turn to the £2 billion put aside for Brexit funding for 2020-21. We are in a mess. I think every noble Lord can agree with that—indeed, my noble friend Lord Cormack and I agree about that. The country is divided. We have those within, if I might say so, the London metropolitan elite bubble who cannot understand why anybody would vote to leave. I will briefly say that I went to the funeral last week of a long-standing councillor in my erstwhile constituency in the village of Countesthorpe—a man called David Jennings. He had been a parish councillor for 49 years. He was not a grand ex-guardsman like myself. He had been a milkman and a carer—he did all sorts of jobs—and was a pillar of the community. I looked around the Church—I did not know which way they voted in the referendum—and I saw the decent, ordinary people that is Middle England. London does not always understand that.

I will turn briefly, without upsetting my noble friend in front of me, to the legal judgment: we do not want to move to judge-made law. I was taught about the separation of powers: the Executive, the legislature and the judiciary. It seems to me that the legislature is trying to take over from the Executive and the judiciary from the legislature. This is a very dangerous route to follow. The courts are there to uphold the law, not to make it. By the way, I will be agnostic on whether they are right or wrong on the actual judgment, but I heard Lord Sumption, whom I do not know and with whom I expect I do not agree about one or two things, today describe the ruling as “revolutionary”. I suggest that is worrying. Courts should restrict themselves to upholding justice, and not interfere in political decisions with which they do not agree, as indeed the High Court in London did earlier this month.

I am very concerned about the ruling. I do not consider judges—I see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, down there—enemies of the people, but many will see this judgment as a political one, not a legal one. I mention this because I think we should not be here today in Parliament. Should the courts rule on the impartiality of the Speaker, for instance? We know he is not impartial—he has said as much. Or should they rule on the breaking of conventions by Parliament when it has taken over the business of the House of Commons? This is a dangerous road down which we proceed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I last discussed that with the Home Secretary on Tuesday morning. There are some very good discussions under way between the Justice Minister, members of the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Home Secretary on these matters. There is some optimism that real progress is being made, and I urge all involved—I urge Labour to work with its sister party, the SDLP—to work on this, because the NCA provides excellent services. At the moment, Northern Ireland is not getting the full benefit of the protection that it can offer.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

The Secretary of State may have seen some rather surprising reports in the newspapers today. Given that she is talking about serious crime and is talking to parties in Northern Ireland about that, has she talked to Sinn Fein, because apparently the Labour party has been talking to Sinn Fein about a possible link-up after the general election? Did she see that?

[Mrs Villiers]

I was briefed on those stories in The Sun this morning. I certainly discuss many matters with Sinn Fein and the other Northern Ireland parties. It is crucial that all parties—Sinn Fein, the SDLP and all the parties in the Executive—get behind the introduction of the full powers of the National Crime Agency in Northern Ireland, because that is a means by which we can ensure that we do more to keep people in Northern Ireland safe, and it helps to relieve pressure on PSNI resources.

On-the-Runs Scheme

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his questions. It is useful to remind the House that this scheme never offered an amnesty, and that it was designed to give individuals who were not wanted an indication that they were not wanted by police, so the letters issued in relation to the Downey case and this one were clearly issued in error.

On the Chairman of the Select Committee’s question about the connection between the 95 individuals and intelligence or indications relating to 300 crimes, these are of course matters for the police to investigate, but I would emphasise that a connection to intelligence or evidence is not necessarily sufficient to justify arrest or prosecution.

I welcome the shadow Secretary of State’s repetition of the apology he gave on behalf of the previous Government for the errors made in these cases, and I, of course, am happy to reiterate the apology I made on behalf of this Government for the pain and hurt caused to all families affected by the OTR scheme. I think there is consensus that the scheme should, at the very least, have been handled in a much more transparent way.

I acknowledge that the way the family in this case found out about the connection to the OTR scheme was very problematic. My understanding is that the PSNI has issued an apology for that, and I join in confirming that apology. It is, of course, as I said in response to the previous question, important that the PSNI is properly resourced for all its functions, which is why the Government have provided extra security funding of £230 million and one reason why we have provided funding for help in investigating the past. Even with those additional resources, it is clear that Operation Red Field, the investigation into all the OTR cases, will take some years.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

The Secretary of State is to be congratulated on bringing some transparency to this scheme, via the Hallett inquiry. Such transparency was needed, because the previous Government set up the scheme and kept it under the carpet, if not secret from the nation. Does she agree that it was one of the shabbiest deals they did, notwithstanding the shadow Secretary of State’s apology? Will she further reassure me, the House, the country and the courts that she has taken legal advice on her statement that nobody can rely on one of these letters any more?

[Mrs Villiers]

I have taken into account a number of factors in deciding how to respond to the Hallett report, and they of course include legal advice on the best way to guard against further trial collapses as a result of abuse of process. My right hon. Friend has referred in clear terms to his view of the scheme. As I said, I think there is agreement that it was deeply unfortunate that the scheme was not handled in a more transparent way. That is something for which I have apologised, but I emphasise once again to the House that it was never an amnesty and it was never a scheme to let people wanted for arrest get off without arrest or prosecution; it was, from the start, intended to be a scheme that merely indicated to those who were not wanted by the police that that was the factual position at the time in question.

Stormont House Agreement

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I fully appreciate how strongly the right hon. Gentleman feels. I am absolutely determined to continue to work with him and with Northern Ireland’s party leaders to find a way forward to ensure that we find a way to resolve the parading impasse. As we have had the chance to discuss, the trouble with the panel was that it did not have enough support. It never had nationalist support. The Unionist coalition that had called for it to be set up in the first place could not produce a public statement in support and had actually broken up—some of the smaller parties had walked out. None of the smaller parties were making the case for the panel publicly, and there was a distinct lack of enthusiasm among the smaller parties. I regret the way the news came out. I have apologised to the right hon. Gentleman for that, but now we need to move forward and find something that will work to try to resolve the impasse in north Belfast.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) and all the staff who worked on this. It is a real achievement. My right hon. Friend knows that I am not much given to flattery, but it is a real achievement for which she deserves congratulations. She said that this is not the end. Going forward, will she ensure that those who were perhaps stumbling blocks—I understand Sinn Fein was a little bit difficult about welfare reform—are not allowed to stop this process in its tracks, and that we all work towards an Northern Ireland that is exactly like the rest of the United Kingdom, where people can go about their daily lives without fear, without corruption and without criminality?

[Mrs Villiers]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his kind comments. I echo his praise for my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who worked with great assiduousness and devotion on these matters alongside, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, many of the civil servants in the Northern Ireland Office. It is a tremendously important step forward that the political parties together were able to find a compromise on welfare reform. It does involve a top-up from the block grant to reflect Northern Ireland’s circumstances. Agreement on welfare reform was essential to putting together a sustainable budget. The important thing now is for a final budget to be agreed by the end of January and for progress on a welfare Bill passing through to consideration stage in the Assembly before the end of February. Those are the next steps.

Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the north Belfast panel will be constituted shortly. I agree that national security matters are at stake, not least because the current dispute over welfare reform and budgets means that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is facing significant funding cuts. Those cuts could impact on its ability to deliver community policing, which is an important part of our counter-terrorism strategy as a means of building support for policing within the community.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State be slightly more specific about what is holding up the talks? In particular, she mentioned Sinn Fein’s opposition to reform of welfare. She will know that Sinn Fein wishes to see the destruction of the Northern Ireland entity, which is not exactly the position that most other people take. Is it a fact that we may have to impose a solution—I am not entirely clear about how that can be done—to ensure that things move forward?

[Mrs Villiers]

I shall be as brief as possible. There remain significant differences of view on a number of matters. There is no sign as yet that Sinn Fein will move its position on welfare reform. Further progress is needed on a specific plan for efficiencies within the Northern Ireland Executive. On the past, issues around thematic work and inquests will be quite difficult to resolve. On parading, the discussions that took place in the summer under the party leaders’ talks indicate that the criteria for adjudicating parades and the sanctions to be attached to a code of conduct remain the main sticking points.