Legal Aid: Social Welfare and Family Law

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and I refer the House to my declared interest.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, legal aid is a vital part of the justice system. It underpins our plans to build a justice system that works for victims, supports access to justice and ultimately upholds the rule of law. The previous Government left the legal system facing significant challenges. This Government are committed to ensuring an effective, efficient and sustainable legal aid system, and we have already begun to stabilise the sector and explore ways in which we can rebuild our justice system.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for his reply. I know that he, like me, believes that the virtual decimation of early legal advice as a direct consequence of the LASPO Act remains an affront to access to justice. Is he aware that every report published on this issue strongly agrees that early legal advice saves the state money by avoiding court and time spent? Of course, we know how sparse resources are, but does he not agree that common sense dictates that restoring early legal advice urgently by an increase in legal aid is a necessary, humane and financially sensible thing to do?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for that question, and I agree with the sentiment behind it. The Government are committed to ensuring there is an effective, efficient and sustainable legal aid system and are working toward that end. Our response to the Crime Lower consultation was published on 14 November and confirmed that we will be uplifting the lowest police station fees, introducing a new youth court fee scheme and paying for travel time in certain circumstances. Together, these changes will provide a £24 million boost for criminal aid providers.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, on a related matter, may I suggest that, to reduce the backlog in criminal cases, the Government increase the number of judicial sitting hours? I also suggest that the Government give earnest consideration to the recent proposal by the former Justice Minister Mr Chalk that criminal cases of intermediate gravity should be dealt with by a Crown Court judge and two justices, rather than by a jury.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Viscount for that question. As he will be aware, the department is going through an allocation process as a result of the recent Budget. The question of sitting hours and days will be looked at as part of that allocation review. He raised the question of an intermediate court, which I think was in the Auld report. That is being looked at, but a number of questions arise from that suggestion, which was made more than 20 years ago. I can say to the noble Viscount that it is something that is being considered.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, as the Minister will know from his past life, many unrepresented litigants appear before family judges and magistrates without any legal advice. Very often, there have to be adjournments because the facts are not available because the parties are so in dispute they cannot give an accurate account. Does the Minister agree that this is not only a waste of court time but a waste of money? Early legal advice in family cases would save a great deal of money.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Of course, I am sympathetic to the point the noble and learned Baroness makes. As she said, I have substantial experience of dealing with litigants in person in family courts. The debate about early legal advice is also being considered as part of the allocation arrangements as a result of the Budget, but I am sympathetic to the point she makes.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister concerned about the combined effect of the restrictions on scope for legal aid, the enormous complexity of trying to get an exceptional circumstances funding application through, and the creation of advice deserts in many parts of the country? These are severe barriers. The Minister has been strongly in support of legal aid over many years, as I know well, but does he have any hope of making progress on this matter?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question, specifically on the point of advice deserts. There is no doubt we are facing substantial challenges in that respect. The previous Government allowed the number of duty solicitors available to drop by 26% between 2017 and 2023. The MoJ and the Legal Aid Agency are working with providers where there are specific issues; for example, setting up a list of providers available to provide immigration advice to clients in the south-west.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bach’s Question is rightly focused on social welfare law and family law, which all too often get forgotten. One of the real pressures on the system is dealing with domestic abuse cases. The courts have introduced a system recently in certain courts, called the pathfinder courts, where there is an early assessment of domestic abuse allegations and the effect trying them will have on children. Could the Minister tell us whether the Government support those pathfinder schemes and how they are getting on?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I pay tribute to my predecessor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy. When I was in opposition, he made a point of encouraging me to visit a pathfinder court in Dorset. I was very impressed by what I saw, and the Government are pleased to carry on that initiative. Again, I am afraid the further rollout of pathfinder is also subject to those allocation discussions, which are ongoing, but I absolutely endorse the point my noble friend makes about the importance of pathfinder, not least because it is a way of highlighting and cracking down on domestic abuse in the court system.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

My Lords, until 2012, there was funding for the excellent support scheme for specialist providers of social welfare and housing law. What consideration are the Government giving to its revival? If the Minister is not aware of plans, will he undertake to look at this?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I will undertake to look at that. I am not aware of it in detail; I know that various pilots have been undertaken. I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Burnett of Maldon (CB)]

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, have referred to the cost that falls on the courts as a result of the removal of legal aid for parents in dispute over their children. That is robbing Peter to pay Paul. I wonder whether the Government could take account also of the wider costs of the removal of legal aid in family cases which flow because parents at war are not as economically effective as they would otherwise be. People at war become ill, and there is untold damage done to the children as they are caught up in protracted disputes that need not happen. When the Minister is undertaking the review he referred to, would he take those matters into account?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I think the noble and learned Lord has hit the nail on the head. Private family law hearings are a destructive process. It is not unusual for situations to get worse for the people engaging in them, in my experience. Having the legal representation helps the court, and it is something I hope we can work towards over time. However, there are other initiatives, such as the pathfinder project, such as early legal advice, such as mediation vouchers, which we would like to use to divert couples away from the court system where it is appropriate and there is not risk to the children.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister, in response to my noble friend Lord Bach, referred primarily to criminal legal aid. What does he think are the implications for the principle of equality before the law, which underpins the rule of law, of the disastrous impact of LASPO—introduced by the coalition Government—on the provision of legal aid and advice for social welfare law, as referred to by my noble friend?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I agree with the sentiments behind my noble friend’s question, but the reality of the situation is that building back better and more comprehensive support will take time. It is a step-by-step process. I understand the frustration which she expresses; nevertheless, I agree with her sentiments and we are working towards that end.