Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

3rd reading
Thursday 23rd October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, Ministers have noted in many of our exchanges that the Bill which we have discussed was a great improvement on the original Bill put forward by the previous Government. That is true, but it did not make it a perfect Bill. In fact, all sides of the House have constructively improved the content of the Bill. I really appreciate that the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Anderson, put forward amendments that were not rewrites of the Bill, as we sometimes see in this House, but were based on listening to the debates that we had in Committee and so on. It is therefore much improved.

I want to note, in general but relating to this Bill, that those of us who have raised issues around civil liberties, privacy rights and transparency were not doing so to be soft on those who fraudulently take advantage of public funds in any way whatever. Those issues of civil liberties, privacy rights, transparency, accountability and so on were based on a firm belief that when the state takes more power, it is our responsibility to represent the public—not just in terms of money that is taken from them but the threat to rights that might be taken from them. I appreciate that the Government Front Bench listened to some of those concerns. I wish that they had listened to a few more but, for now, I think there was constructive engagement from all sides, and I appreciate that very much.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I am probably the last person to speak and mull over all that has happened. I thank sincerely the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Anderson, and their team. They have been very helpful to us in answering our questions, trying to agree with us and offering a meeting to discuss the part of this Bill on carers. We appreciate and look forward to that departmental meeting, together with, I hope, one of our MPs, so that we can have a reasonable view towards ping-pong and what goes forward.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, as everyone has, for many things that we worked closely on and supported. I also thank particularly the Conservative Front Bench, who have not been confrontational but have tried to work to get a better Bill. The Bill has been quite exemplary in the way that people have worked towards improving it in many ways. I obviously also thank my noble friend Lady Kramer, who has worked with me on the Bill, and Adam Bull, our legislative and political adviser, who has been giving me support throughout.

We have among us—the Cross Benches, the Government, the Conservative Benches, this Bench and the Bishops’ Bench—all improved the Bill. I hope that the improvements we have made will last through ping-pong and that we end up with a better Bill—not a confrontational Bill but one that will help public funds, which is obviously its aim, while protecting the vulnerable in society who are not really going to be the paymasters of dealing with errors in the past. Congratulations to all, including the staff in the background of the Government who have made this such an interesting exercise, even though I am surprised that we have got to Third Reading so quickly after Report, and in almost indecent haste. If all legislation could be so quick, it would be a great advantage to this House and the other House. I hope that the Bill passes successfully.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords—in fact, that was so nice that I would like it to carry on, but the Chief Whip will kick me from behind if it goes on any longer. However, I will say a couple of things. In response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, we have already begun to think about how we can look at making things better in the way that I described. I will find the most appropriate way to communicate that, but I assure him that I stand by the assurances that I gave on Report—and I say likewise to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I will reflect on what has happened. Having given so much ground, I do not want to spoil the unanimity, but I will not be able to give everything. I am sure he will not be surprised to hear that.

Finally, as we send the Bill down the Corridor, it is now for the elected House to consider and respond to the changes proposed by this House. I am sure I speak for the whole House when I say that we would welcome a swift consideration to make sure that we can move quickly and get on with the important job of addressing fraud and overpayments across the public sector.

Jobcentres: Staffing Levels

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Thursday 23rd October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I suspect that the noble Lord has been reading our Get Britain Working plan—that is the only explanation for that comment. That is exactly what we want to do, and he is so right on this. We have been saying from the beginning that one size does not fit all, and that in employment interventions we are looking to work closely with local leaders, so we are running a series of trailblazers around the country, working with local mayoral authorities and local government.

Every labour market is different. The noble Lord is quite right that we do not have a single labour market in Britain; we have a series of different labour markets, with different challenges, populations and employment patterns, and our job is to make sure that we respond to those needs. For example, we have eight youth trailblazers running around the country, from Teesside to the south-west, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, the East and West Midlands and London, to look at what works. We will learn from that and will then help people to make the right decisions for their people.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, that sounds a very optimistic viewpoint from the Minister. However, the reports are that staff stress levels are at historic heights, and many are leaving for better pay and less stress. Aligned to that, staff shortages also mean less support for vulnerable clients. Can the Minister give a more optimistic view than is being reported?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I may be an optimist but I am also very positive. I believe in our staff, and I understand that there are times when this can be a really stressful job: there is no question about that. But we have been looking really carefully to make sure that we can predict demand levels and manage our staffing levels accordingly.

One of the challenges is that we are asking people to do a different job from what they did in the past. I had a really interesting conversation recently with one of our senior people who has worked on the front line about who she recruits to be a work coach, because you have to find people who have the appropriate levels of empathy and can motivate people, but who are also able to have a tough conversation when you need that. One of the things I asked was, “Where do people recruit from?” She said that they come from really different backgrounds. They are teachers, people from retail, people from call centres, the emergency services and from some legal offices. We are looking for skill sets and characteristics that can enable people to do a really tough job. We are also investing in our people, creating a work coach academy to upskill them and give them the tools they need to do the job, and we are investing in AI so that they have the information they need to help the customers. We can do this, and we are going to.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

103: After Clause 96, insert the following new Clause—
“Recovery of overpayments of Carer’s AllowanceThe Secretary of State may not exercise any of the powers of recovery under this Act in relation to a person who has received an overpayment of Carer’s Allowance until such time as—(a) the Secretary of State has commissioned an independent review of the overpayment of Carer’s Allowance,(b) the review has concluded its inquiry and submitted a report containing recommendations to the Secretary of State, (c) the Secretary of State has laid the report of the independent review before Parliament, and(d) the Secretary of State has implemented the recommendations of the independent review.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would delay any payments being taken from people who the Government may think owe repayments of Carer’s Allowance until the independent review into Carer’s Allowance overpayments has been published and fully implemented.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, throughout the passage of the Bill, we on these Benches have repeatedly raised concerns about the punitive measures applied to carers who receive carer’s allowance and subsequently earn small amounts through additional work, often losing their carer’s allowance entirely. Amendment 103 would prohibit the Secretary of State using recovery methods in cases of overpayment of carer’s allowance until an inquiry has concluded and recommendations from that inquiry have been implemented on carer’s allowance overpayment.

We have had discussions with the Minister’s department on this, and we are hopeful that the Government will commit from the Dispatch Box to a date for publication. In those conversations we were promised a departmental briefing to me and, if necessary, to an MP of my choice. I will give advance notice of what we would expect to learn in that briefing: when do the Government expect to publish their response to the report? It has been nearly three months since they received the report. We acknowledge that there has been a change of Secretary of State, but are the Government still treating this with the high level of priority that they have given it so far? At our meeting, can the Government also set out a timetable for the publication of the report and actions they will take to deal with the issues set out in that report?

What are the Minister’s reflections, if she has reflections, on the report and its findings? Will the Government meet with carers—and in particular Carers UK, with which I have been in constant touch—who have been affected? Finally—and this will probably be the nail in the coffin—are the Government considering writing off any overpayments to carers?

From discussions that we have had outside this Chamber, I hope we can have a meeting with the department to deal with these matters and get some progress on them. Maybe it would not solve them completely, but it would mean that we feel we do not need to test the feelings of the House.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that we must oppose Amendments 103 and 113 set out by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for the same reasons that we gave in Committee.

The independent review to which I believe the noble Lord refers has a clear and limited purpose. As set out in the Government’s own guidance, it is designed to establish three things: first, how overpayments of carer’s allowance linked to earnings have occurred; secondly, what can best be done to support those who have accrued them; and, thirdly, how to reduce the risk of such problems arising in the future.

Nowhere in that remit does it question whether the overpayments were made. That point is already settled. The individuals in question have received government funds—taxpayer funds—to which they were not entitled. To put this in context, since 2019 over £357 million has been overpaid to carers for various reasons, such as where claimants breached the earnings limit, where claimants ceased to provide care, and where the claimant was also in receipt of an overlapping benefit. Often, I have to say, there have been innocent reasons.

The review will rightly examine how the system can be improved and how claimants can be better supported, but it will not, and cannot, rewrite the fact that money was misallocated and must therefore be returned. We think it would make no sense to halt all recovery activity pending the outcome of a review that does not address the underlying question of entitlement. The amendment would effectively suspend the recovery of public money that we already know has been wrongly paid out. We believe this cannot be justified, whether fiscally or morally.

I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, who is in her place, set out to us outside the Chamber her concerns about a cliff edge. I welcome that input—her doing that and saying that—and the Government may want to comment on that. But it is also worth remembering that, even according to charities in support of those who have caring responsibilities, overpayments have been made to people who have not correctly reported that their caring responsibilities have ceased, that the person they are caring for has died, or that they are in receipt of an overlapping benefit. The person in question has a duty to report these changes, and it is clearly wrong that the person has not fulfilled their obligation to the taxpayer to report when these events happen.

Moreover, this amendment goes even further by requiring the Government not only to await the completion of the review and the laying of its report before Parliament but to implement its recommendations in full—I must emphasise that—before recovery can resume. We believe that this is quite extraordinary. We have no idea what those recommendations will be, and it would be deeply irresponsible to commit the Government in advance to implementing them wholesale without the ability to assess, modify or reject them as appropriate.

Public funds must be safeguarded and the Government must retain the flexibility to act responsibly in response to the review’s findings. This amendment would tie their hands and delay indefinitely the recovery of money that should never have been paid in the first place. In his summing up, the noble Lord might suggest how long the wait would be; the noble Baroness might also hazard a guess. Will it be many months, if not possibly a year or two? We really do not know, but I am sure it will be many months. It will become increasingly difficult to recover the money when so much time has gone by. Individuals may have experienced substantial changes in their lives or gone abroad. At worst, the individuals may, very sadly, have died.

For whatever reason, and bearing in mind people’s circumstances or vulnerabilities, we believe in principle that overpayments—a reminder that this is taxpayers’ money—are just that. They have been made to individuals in error—please note that—and should be repaid as soon as possible. I have an iota of sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on the principle behind the amendment—namely, ensuring fairness and learning lessons from what has gone wrong—but its practical effect would be short-sighted, costly and contrary to the basic duty of government to protect the public purse. For those reasons, we cannot and will not support it.

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Finally, it is worth noting that some measures in the Bill are crucial for preventing the kinds of issues seen with carer’s allowance, but in other benefits. As the noble Lord knows, we are not proposing to use the eligibility verification measure with carer’s allowance, but it will improve the DWP’s access to critical data, helping to verify entitlements, identify errors and overpayments, and prevent a build-up of debt in three other benefits: universal credit, ESA and pension credit. Delaying the Bill would delay the opportunity to stop others building up overpayments and debts. As I have outlined many times, there are robust safeguards to ensure the proportionate and effective use of these powers, including independent oversight, new rights of review and appeal, and clear limits on scope. I hope, having given the assurances the noble Lord was seeking, that he will now feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for all that she has said. We are looking to have a departmental meeting to deal with the problems out of the public eye. I take some issue with what the noble Viscount said about carers. Many of them are receiving things they should not receive. I accept that. The trouble is, once you have received it and bought your loaf of bread or whatever it is, there is no money left. A lot of those people are in straitened circumstances and we have to understand that not everybody is good at managing their finances when they have very little. I ask for us to look at that in a caring way, punishing those who have blatantly taken money they should not take, but also by building up the comments I have made. If the Minister agrees to such a meeting with me and one of my Members of Parliament so that we are all singing from the same page, in those circumstances I am prepared to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 103 withdrawn.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

These two amendments, which have already been well explained by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, simply define who may use the powers, particularly ensuring that serious use of them requires explicit ministerial authorisation and that the use of the powers is robustly recorded and reported upon. At the very least, those safeguards should be in place. I am happy to support the amendments wholeheartedly and I very much hope the noble Baroness will seek the approval of the House for them.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the amendments, as has been clearly stated by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, concern ministerial and parliamentary oversight—it is the oversight that is important—or the powers granted to authorised officers for reclaiming finances under this Act.

As has been stated by other noble Lords, these amendments would require that a Minister of the Crown authorise the use of such powers where the amount involved exceeded £10,000. This would also oblige the Public Sector Fraud Authority to maintain a register of instances in which the powers were exercised, with a relevant Minister required to lay a copy of that register before Parliament.

On these Benches, we have been critical throughout the passage of the Bill of the broad powers—and in some cases inadequately checked powers, as described by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux—granted to recover funds identified as perhaps fraudulent. We therefore support these amendments, as they would introduce additional senior authorisation for cases involving substantial sums and provide a necessary level of parliamentary oversight. If the noble Baroness pushes her amendment to a vote, we will support her.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

My Lords, while I appreciate the intention behind these amendments, the reality of their drafting would give Ministers the ability to block politically inconvenient investigations. They would prevent counterfraud enforcement at any kind of scale, and they would expose the identities of civil servants investigating serious criminals. On that basis, we cannot accept them.

Although we cannot agree to the amendments, it might surprise the noble Baroness that I believe there is a lot that we agree on. We agree that the measures in the Bill are powerful and must be used with care; we agree that staff must be appropriately trained before they are able to use these powers; and we agree that robust oversight, both internal and external, is essential.

With regard to ministerial oversight, for as long as the powers sit in the Cabinet Office, they will be exercised in the name of the Minister for the Cabinet Office. However, the amendments go beyond accountability; they bring the Minister into specific operational decisions. It is not appropriate to mandate that the Minister for the Cabinet Office be brought into hundreds of operational decisions in the way that the amendments suggest.

First, Ministers must be free to delegate, or the work of government will grind to a halt. Your Lordships’ House would be rightly concerned if Cabinet Office Ministers, who need to make government more effective and efficient, were spending their days taking detailed counterfraud operational decisions.

Secondly, it would be inappropriate for Ministers—of whichever party happens to be in power—to take operational decisions on individual enforcement cases. That would make enforcement political. It would necessarily expose every case to charges of political interference; it would place honest Ministers in an invidious position; and it would give dishonest Ministers the power to block investigations that were politically inconvenient.

However, the noble Baroness is right that Ministers should know what is happening in their name. Ministers are accountable and must therefore choose how these powers should be delegated, not simply hand them over to civil servants and forget about them until a crisis occurs, which I know is a genuine concern. In response to the noble Baroness’s challenge, let me set out what Ministers will do before any of the powers are used.

Ministers will scrutinise the set-up of the PSFA, its plans to use the powers, the oversight arrangements in place, and the skills and experience of authorised officers and authorised investigators. They will also decide what thresholds they wish to set and what constraints they wish to place around the exercise of powers in their name. Ministers will decide what reports they want to receive and their frequency. They will also decide how they wish to appoint authorised officers and authorised investigators, and will take a strong interest in the training, experience and professionalism of those staff. Finally, Ministers will be accountable to your Lordships’ House and the other place to show that they have done that. I am happy to commit to Ministers bringing forward a statement before the powers are first used to demonstrate that these commitments have been fulfilled. Every time there is a change of Ministers, officials will ask for the new Minister’s view on these questions, and not silently continue out of sight, which I know is a genuine concern of the noble Baroness. She is absolutely right to draw attention to how delegation works in government; it is for Ministers who are accountable to decide on the appropriate delegation.

I turn to the seniority of civil servants provided for in proposed new subsection (1B) in Amendment 28. By requiring senior civil servant sign-off for every use of the powers in Part 1, the noble Baroness seeks to set the bar for internal authorisation too high. Currently, the PSFA’s enforcement unit is relatively small—I love using the word “relatively”; it is not large—so the number of information notices envisaged in a year, for example, could all be reviewed by a senior civil servant. However, we are making this legislation to last decades, and its operation cannot be contingent on keeping our capacity to pursue public sector fraudsters small. At any scale, requiring excessive civil servant grading in legislation is a strict operational limitation and unnecessarily expensive.

That is why those who use these powers successfully elsewhere in government, such as HMRC, do not have these requirements in either their legislation or their practice. It is not the grade that matters; it is skills, experience and professionalism. Authorised investigators and authorised officers in the PSFA will all be members of the Government Counter Fraud Profession. They will undergo bespoke training, on top of the previous knowledge, skills and experience they bring to the role. Current members of the PSFA’s enforcement unit bring a wealth of experience with them. They include former police officers, customs officers and other civil servants who have worked in investigatory roles across a number of departments.

Noble Lords have been clear in this debate that they are particularly concerned about the use of PACE powers. Let me remind your Lordships’ House that it is the courts that will authorise any application that the PSFA makes under PACE. No civil servant—of any grade—nor any Minister can authorise a search warrant or a production order under PACE. Only the courts can authorise such actions, each and every time we seek to use them.

That means that the PSFA must be able to demonstrate, to the court’s satisfaction, that there are reasonable grounds to believe that an offence of fraud has been committed against a public authority and, as set out in PACE, reasonable grounds to believe that the material sought is likely to be of substantial value to the investigation—I repeat: it must be of substantial value. This means that the subject of an application has the protection of a court’s scrutiny before authorised investigators can execute a warrant or production order.

Moreover, the powers in the Bill are subject to review by an independent person, as specified under Clause 65. I have committed to ensure that the independent person will be passed all the concerns raised by parliamentarians, including those we have heard today. The PSFA will be subject to inspections by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services. Inspection reports will be made publicly available and will be laid before Parliament.

Finally, I turn to the question of maintaining a register that has to be laid before Parliament. We will of course keep meticulous records of how and when powers are used; that would be a bare minimum for good investigatory practice. Those records will be made available to the independent reviewer, who will report on the use of the powers to Parliament, ensuring democratic oversight. However, laying this register before Parliament carries significant risks; it may compromise ongoing cases and expose the identities of investigators to dangerous individuals, jeopardising their safety and the integrity of the justice system. We must remember that we are talking about people who undertake criminal activity—online in some cases—so publishing the names of the investigating officers could make them vulnerable.

On the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, and the appalling Horizon scandal, I want to take this opportunity to reassure and remind noble Lords that the scandal was based on private prosecutions that the PSFA will not undertake.

I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns and have set out how Ministers will act in an effort to assuage them, but the amendment cannot stand. It would allow dishonest Ministers to block politically inconvenient investigations, it would make counter-fraud enforcement at any scale impossible, and it would expose the names of officials to the fraudsters they are investigating. I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving government Amendment 41, I will speak also to government Amendments 42, 43, 64, 80, 90 and 111.

Under current devolution arrangements, DWP administers certain devolved benefits on behalf of the Scottish Government through agency agreements. These amendments will ensure that the expanded information gathering powers introduced in this Bill will be available to Scottish Ministers, should they require them in the future. This follows confirmation from the Scottish Government that they would like the updates to these powers to apply to them too.

These amendments will ensure necessary changes are made to the DWP debt recovery powers in the Bill. As drafted in Clause 91, the UK Government are seeking powers to apply new recovery methods to debts of certain devolved benefits delivered under agency agreements. However, the Scottish Government have confirmed that they do not wish these new recovery methods to be applied to devolved benefits administered by DWP through agency arrangements.

Taking the amendments in turn, government Amendment 41 simplifies Clause 73, reflecting how it was originally introduced, with new Section 109BZA now containing the expanded power to issue information notices to any information holder as part of a DWP criminal fraud investigation and ensuring that Scottish Ministers will have access to these equivalent expanded powers in the event that Scottish Ministers deliver any benefits covered by the 1992 Act.

Government Amendments 42 and 43, made to Clause 74, update the Social Security Fraud Act 2001, aligning it with the new powers and ensuring that the requirement to issue a code of practice and the ability to make payments for information also apply properly to Scottish Ministers.

Government Amendment 90 to Clause 91 reflects the position of the Scottish Government on the DWP debt recovery powers. It ensures that the Scottish Government retain control over how debts relating to their devolved benefits are recovered. Once these agency agreements come to an end, it will be for the Scottish Government to determine their own approach to debt recovery, including establishing new powers if necessary.

Finally, government Amendment 111 to Clause 101 confirms that Clauses 73 and 74 are treated as pre-commencement enactments for the purposes of the Scotland Act 1998, enabling Scottish Ministers to use these updated powers for fraud investigations in relation to devolved benefits. It confirms that the provisions in Clauses 96 and 97 relating to cost recovery and data protection apply to Scottish Ministers’ existing debt recovery powers. Amendments 80 and 64 update the clause references in Clause 85 and Schedule 3 as a consequence of these changes.

Having outlined the case for these amendments, I hope noble Lords will accept them so that we can fulfil our agreements with the Scottish Government. I beg to move.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, on these Benches, we welcome the agreement reached with the devolved Administrations—may this be a lesson to people around the world on how to deal with them, at least in this case.

The amendments in this group relate to how the powers in the Bill refer to Scotland specifically. Amendment 41, together with related amendments to Clause 74, and the replacement of Clause 101 and others, reverses—I stress that—the changes made in the House of Commons. I gather that this follows confirmation from Scottish Ministers that they wish the changes to the Secretary of State’s functions regarding information notices to apply to them as well. This seems to me a positive movement of Administrations working together—long may it continue.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, as it is my first appearance at the opposition Dispatch Box on Report, I echo remarks made by my noble friend Lady Finn on the first day of Report, because I also appreciate the constructive approach that the Government have taken following Committee.

It is perhaps appropriate that, as a Scot, my first brief contribution relates to matters north of the border. It is our understanding that this amendment has been brought forward by the Government in order to apply to Scotland those provisions of the Bill which we have already debated in earlier clauses, in particular those concerning the new powers to issue information notices under the Social Security Administration Act 1992, and to clarify that the new methods of recovery introduced under the Bill will not apply to devolved benefits.

In that sense, these amendments are essentially technical in nature, as the Minister said, ensuring consistency across the United Kingdom and confirming that the devolved benefits system in Scotland remains outside the scope of the new recovery powers. We appreciate and support the clarification. However, while the amendments themselves are straightforward, they raise some wider questions about the relationship between the UK and the devolved Administrations in this area.

It is somewhat surprising that these changes have had to come forward as government amendments at this relatively late stage of the Bill, when one might have expected such matters to have been settled at the drafting stage through earlier consultation and agreement with Scottish Ministers. The Government have placed great store over the past year in stating that they seek to improve communications and trust between the UK Government and the devolved nations, so can the Minister give us an update on how they view progress on these changes and what has changed in the past year?

While we do not oppose these amendments—indeed, we welcome the fact that the necessary legislative consent has now been secured—they prompt reflection on the importance of ensuring that such engagement happens promptly and systematically in future. The relationship between the UK and the devolved Governments works best when issues of competence and application are identified and agreed well in advance, rather than being corrected through amendments on Report.

That said, I would be grateful if the Minister could take this opportunity to update the House on the Government’s current assessment of the risk of fraud in relation to devolved benefits and on what engagement has taken place with the devolved Administrations to address that risk. Can she tell us what steps she is aware of in those authorities to tackle fraud within their systems and how information sharing and co-ordination between the UK Government and the devolved Governments is being managed to ensure that fraud risks are tackled effectively across all jurisdictions?

We are content to support these amendments that bring Scotland into line with the rest of the UK where appropriate while respecting the devolution settlement and maintaining clarity over responsibilities in the fight against fraud.

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[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I will say a few words about Amendment 60. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for her support.

My concern is about justice. People on the receiving end of DWP penalties and accusations of fraud will predominantly be old, sick, disabled and the poor. Most would not be able to afford legal advice or qualify for legal aid, which is scarce in any case. DWP actions and penalties could arise because people have made errors in completing very long and complex forms. For example, the pension credit form is 24 pages long and has 243 questions on it. Errors can be made in completing the forms and interpreting the questions on them, and in the DWP’s assessment of the answers given to those questions.

There is a high probability that some people may eventually be unjustly accused of committing fraud and face the removal of money from their bank accounts without their express approval. It will be the might of the state on one hand and a poor person who does not have any legal advice on the other. We know from the Post Office scandal that innocent individuals can be pressurised into admitting fraud that they did not commit and into handing over money that they did not steal or do not owe. There is enormous scope for injustice in the Bill.

The 2023 High Court case of R v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions related to a single mother of two disabled adults who was receiving universal credit and was overpaid by £8,623, entirely due to the fault of the DWP. The DWP sought to recover the money. The High Court’s judgment said that, under certain circumstances, benefit claimants may be able to argue that recovering the debt would be an unlawful breach of their legitimate expectation and the debt need not actually be paid. Would many claimants who are accused of committing fraud or receiving overpayments be aware of these things?

Steve Webb, the former Pensions Minister, said:

“It can be difficult for people to understand whether the demands they are being sent for overpayments are a mistake, as benefits such as tax credits and pension credit are so complex”.


Without legal advice, these people become even more vulnerable.

Last year, a lot of press coverage was given to the plight of a 75 year-old pensioner who was chased by the DWP for pension credit fraud, adding up to £22,000. The Sun newspaper took up the case, and eventually the investigation showed that there was no fraud—it was all due to errors by the DWP. This case, obviously, is not unique; there are many others that do not get the publicity. I cannot help wondering how many people over the years have been pressurised into admitting guilt when they are not guilty. How many more will admit guilt when they are simply pressed into it?

Last year, data secured by Big Brother Watch showed that more than 200,000 people wrongly faced investigation for housing benefit fraud and error after the performance of the Government’s algorithm fell far short of expectations. Earlier this year, 30 charities wrote to the Government, pointing out the dangers of this legislation and previous legislation, and they identified 686,756 new official error overpayments on universal credit.

Eventually, at some point, people who are accused need some advice. Amendment 60 suggests that the Government ought to provide legal advice to people who may well qualify for it. On 9 October this year, the Government announced that all victims of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal who are claiming compensation will be entitled to free legal advice. Why wait until people suffer? Why not offer this advice up front to save anguish to millions of people? That is what a civilised society would do.

I am sure the Minister will not support this and will possibly refer to the cost associated with it, but the cost of injustice is even higher. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer some help with this.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to refer to the title of this Bill, which is not just “Fraud” but “Fraud, Error and Recovery”. What we are really dealing with is unintentional error. If you are at the bottom of the food chain, worrying how to pay for your food and all the other necessities of life, and you receive some money, you do not look too carefully at that in the real world; you are just grateful for all that you can receive. It then transpires that there has been an error, not really a fraud, and that is part of the title of this Bill. What the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Sikka, and my noble friend Lady Kramer have tried to explain is that these are errors, not frauds. These amendments reflect ongoing concerns that the Bill grants excessive powers that could intrude upon individuals’ financial privacy and be applied punitively to those receiving universal credit who are at the bottom of the food chain.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, would align the safeguards that apply for the use of eligibility verification powers with those in other parts of the Bill, ensuring continuity in this legislation. My noble friend Lady Kramer’s amendments would remove the requirement for banks to examine the bank accounts of relevant claimants. I do not think we expect a Division on this, but I hope the Government will take account of the nervousness that many of us feel about excessive powers that could affect the people least able to defend themselves.

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[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Deben, very much for that. The point I would like to make is that there are people who will perpetuate fraud but, if you try to close up every single channel, you will catch people who are innocent. I believe that all laws should allow for people to get away with fraud, perhaps, if it means that you are not accusing people unintentionally. These amendments are appropriate because, as has been said, who knows what Government will come along and what people will be in charge? If there is fraud, it has to be proved pretty conclusively, rather than, because we suspect fraud, us making it impossible for people who would otherwise be found innocent. We found that with the Horizon scandal: it looked all right but AI said that they were all guilty, though they were not guilty. When even speeches made in this House probably come from AI, we have to be increasingly careful about what we do. These amendments protect people; if they are pressed, we on these Benches will support them.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I speak in support of these amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, and I am pleased to have added my name to them, because both amendments make valuable and necessary clarifications to the operation and oversight of the eligibility verification mechanism—EVM—and they do so in a way that strengthens, rather than weakens, the Government’s objectives under this Bill.

Amendment 52 makes a particularly important clarification. As the Government have repeatedly described their approach to the EVM as a test and learn process, it is vital that we make clear in the Bill that the mere existence of an eligibility indicator does not in itself constitute reasonable grounds for suspicion. That may sound like a technical point, but it has real-world implications. When a system is still developing, when its data sources are still being refined and when human understanding of how it operates is still evolving, there is a very real risk of false positives and unintended consequences.

The Government have said that there is some clarification within the process of an investigation that would help to clarify that persons subject to an EVM are not guilty, and that there are not, therefore, necessarily reasonable grounds for suspicion. However, putting this clarification in the Bill would be a really valuable step in making this absolutely clear, in black and white, to everyone involved. This amendment removes ambiguity and ensures that this point is not in question.

We have already discussed throughout this Bill the importance of safeguards and clarity when new investigative systems are created, particularly where multiple third parties are involved in data sharing and enforcement, which is paramount. This amendment provides exactly that and sets out this lack of reasonable suspicion in the Bill so that we avoid the potentially harmful ambiguity.

Moreover, this amendment ensures that, before any intrusive action is taken—in other words, before any benefit is amended, suspended or investigated—a person of appropriate seniority and experience must review the information and confirm that there are genuine reasonable grounds for suspicion. This aspect of the amendment places human oversight where it belongs: between the algorithm and the citizen. This matters all the more because, as many noble Lords will have seen, the Government themselves are moving rapidly to expand the use of AI in fraud detection and enforcement. Only a couple of weeks ago, civil servants across Whitehall received an internal update about the significant expansion of AI use within the Public Sector Fraud Authority in an article titled:

“Behind the Scenes: Building the AI Tool that is Revolutionising Fraud Prevention”.


I listened very carefully to the passionate speech from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, added to by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. We believe that this makes these safeguards an urgent necessity. As we rightly modernise our defences against fraud, we must also modernise our protections against error, bias and overreach. Ensuring human involvement in that process in the way it has been set out in this Bill is fundamentally important, and this amendment provides that assurance.

Amendment 67 complements the first one by broadening the remit of the independent review of the EVM powers. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, eloquently laid out his reasoning here. It makes sure that the reviewer looks at not just operational effectiveness but proportionality, costs, unintended consequences and how these powers affect vulnerable people and those interacting with the banking system. These are precisely the areas where well-intentioned powers can have unintended harm if they are not closely monitored.

We on these Benches raised these concerns in Committee and do so again on Report. There is the potential for disproportionate costs on financial institutions, the potential chilling effect on access to basic banking services for those already on the margins and, above all, the potential for harm to vulnerable people who find themselves caught up in complex enforcement processes. It is right that the independent reviewer should have these matters placed explicitly within their remit. I am therefore glad that the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has framed his amendment to achieve exactly that. We need to recover public money which has been overpaid—we are in no doubt on that point—but doing so in a way that causes more harm than good benefits no one. The reviewer must have regard to this, not as a suggested area of review but as a statutory duty.

These are measured, practical amendments that I believe carry broad support across the House. They are not about blocking the Bill or frustrating its purpose: they are about ensuring that the new systems it creates are used wisely, fairly and proportionately. We therefore hope that the Government will listen and take these proposals seriously, recognise their constructive intent and accept them as a genuine improvement to the Bill. If the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, decides to test the opinion of the House, we on these Benches will be supporting him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I would just like to ask the Minister three direct questions. First, why are people in England and Wales so much nastier that they need this force, whereas the Scots do not? That is not, it seems to me, a very sensible distinction. It should be either all of us or none of us.

Secondly—because I think it should be none of us —can the Minister explain why it is suitable for DWP officers to do something against individuals who are thought to be fraudulent, while officers of a similar kind do not have the power to do it if it is organised crime? Can she explain why that is?

My third question is extremely simple. Everybody who has ever had a ministerial job that involves this kind of thing knows, as the noble Lord, Lord Harper, said so clearly, that you absolutely need to be trained to do this. Can the Minister say who is trained, how much training they have and whether there is a budget for that training? If her answer is not satisfactory on any of those, I suggest she accepts the amendment which gets rid of this entirely.

Let us get to a sensible world in which the police have powers—for which, in most places, people trust them—and civil people do not have powers. We should remember the comment from the noble and right reverend Lord that was very simple: you know when a policeman is there, but how do you really know that this is a DWP individual? You have to look at some piece of paper, perhaps, but you do not know that. I think this is a very dangerous proposal.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I support this amendment because any exercise of physical powers must surely rest with the police. Are we going to train a new breed of DWP officers who have to be tough and able to act as police? It is quite nonsensical.

The one thing that worries me about this amendment is that it is quite easy on violent filing cabinets. You can attack a filing cabinet, apparently, because that is all right. I think this division between property and individuals is a very strange line to draw. Do you hide in a filing cabinet because you think that would be safer? No, you must not hide in a filing cabinet because, under this legislation, even under the amendment, you can attack a filing cabinet because it might hit back. I think the whole thing, when you read it carefully, is quite nonsensical. We have to get back to the crux of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which is that if there is going to be physical restraint, it has to be from the police and from no one else.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am very glad to have added my name to this series of amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden. They go to the heart of one of the most serious concerns that we have raised repeatedly with the Government, both inside this Chamber and beyond. I am very pleased that my noble friend Lord Harper spoke from his personal experiences where the state has found itself having to use force, and I will revert to that in a moment.

We are deeply concerned by the powers being granted to DWP investigators under this Bill, particularly the authorisation to use reasonable force against both property and people when exercising powers of entry, search or seizure under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984—I believe that my noble friend Lord Harper referenced 2017, but I will need to check my facts on that. These are, in both name and substance, police powers. The idea that civil servants—officials who are not police officers—should be able, in law, to use physical force against members of the public is one that should give this House real pause. It raises profound questions about the limits of state power and the safeguards that ought to accompany it.

The Government have said that they cannot carve out these powers from PACE because it is separate Home Office legislation, but that simply does not stand up to scrutiny. We will hear later from the Minister, but they have already carved out the power of arrest for both the DWP and the Cabinet Office and they have explicitly carved out the use of reasonable force from the Cabinet Office’s own PACE powers under this Bill. It is, therefore, perfectly possible to do so; the Bill itself provides the precedent.

Given that, we struggle to understand why the Government are unwilling to make a simple, sensible and proportionate distinction that reasonable force may be used only against property and not against people. As it stands, the provision creates an unnecessary and troubling loophole, and one that we doubt will withstand the realities of operational use. On that basis, I had formed my own questions and, funnily enough, they chime with many of the points raised by my noble friend Lord Harper and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu, and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, so there is support around the House.

Let us kick off. First, assuming that the DWP visits a property with a view to seizing property only and people there threaten violence or are violent but the police are not there, what are DWP officials expected to do there and then? Secondly, what training would DWP officials be given to deal with any potential violence? How far would this training go? This point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Deben. Is it clear what is expected of them? What are the limits? What might be given to these officials for defence against physical force? Thirdly, what equipment would DWP officials be provided with to assist with restraining individuals if this arose in a scenario where only assets were being seized? Fourthly, and perhaps the biggest question of all, what happens if matters get out of hand, the police are not there, or they have been called but they are not there yet, and an individual is injured? The individual could be a DWP official or an individual within whose house the property is being seized. The police can be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, but what redress or investigations are in place for DWP officials, given this scenario? I am referring to legal protections.

Youth Unemployment

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that the opportunities that young people have throughout their lives are dependent on the standards, quality and success that they experience in schools. That is why we have already taken action to ensure that new routes are available for young people post-16—for example, through foundation apprenticeships—and why we have increased the support available to young people in colleges to get the qualifications in English and maths that are so important for them later in life. It is also why, through both Becky Francis’s curriculum and assessment review and the Government’s post-16 skills and education White Paper, we will have more to say about how we ensure that there are clear, successful routes for all our young people post-16.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I am disappointed to hear the Minister, in discussing youth unemployment, mention universal credit and other such things. I ask the Minister to consider whether—as I would have thought—one of the basic ways of reducing youth unemployment is to encourage and introduce more apprentices. If only we had people who were encouraged financially by the Government in plumbing, electrical work and all the trades that people need; instead, we are using people from overseas because we are not training anyone. Are the Government giving financial incentives to the plumbers, electricians and so on to train the tradespeople for the future?

Jobs Market

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, within hospitality, there are still 78,000 vacancies in accommodation and food service activities. That is unchanged on the quarter and is only 7,000 below the pre-pandemic level. Of course, there are global headwinds across the economy, but retail and hospitality are sectors where there has always been a lot of churn. We need to make sure that there are the appropriate workers at the appropriate level.

Therefore, we have announced the rollout of the hospitality SWAP pilots—sector-based work academy programmes—launched in partnership with UKHospitality. We are spreading them to 26 new areas which are in need of jobs and opportunities, including 13 coastal towns like Scarborough and Blackpool. We are also working with other key sectors. One challenge we have is to make sure we match the skills of workers with the jobs that are available. A SWAP can get someone job-ready and able to move into one of those jobs when they become available. There will always be vacancies and part of our job is to ensure that everyone has a chance of getting one. That is what we are focused on.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the UK is experiencing a decline in payrolled employees and a significant drop in graduate job opportunities, with listings for entry-level graduate jobs at the lowest level for seven years. This does not really tie in with the wonderful statistics the Minister told us about. There is another set of statistics which are not very good. What are the Government doing to improve those statistics in real terms?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord is very aware, there is a whole range of statistics. If he goes through the official statistics, he will see a wide range of data, each of which tells us something slightly different. He is right about nudging at payroll data, but I am absolutely right that the employment rate of the UK is at record levels—that is a fact; it is from the Office for National Statistics.

One of the challenges for the Government is to ensure that even when times are tough, we have a strategy to do three things. We must continue to develop growth and investment in our economy to make sure that the labour market is functioning. We then need to make sure that it is an inclusive labour market, and that those who are farthest from it get the skills they need to have a chance of getting the jobs, so employers can have the workers they need. Finally, we need to make sure that every area of the country works. Some local labour markets have 80% employment already, but others do not. The Government’s job is to target those three things, and that is what we are doing.

Youth Unemployment

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate raises a really interesting point, and I am very glad to hear that he is talking to young people individually. I would always be interested to hear more about what they say to him, because I find that I learn a lot more from what young people say than from what anybody else says.

He raised a really important point about AI, which I know is an area in which he does a lot of work. We are starting to witness the impact of AI in the labour market, but there is uncertainty over the scale of that impact, especially over the next four years. The Government are planning against a range of plausible future outcomes. A lot of work is going into this in government. Most forecasters project that, in the end, AI will lead to a net increase in employment but with varying impacts across different sectors and for different people. When you get this kind of change and churn in the labour market, the people who lose out most are those at the margins. Our job is to try to make sure that we give those who would otherwise not succeed the skills to do so. For example, the Government are investing to transform apprenticeships and looking at more shorter courses and ways to give young people a chance to gain skills in new areas, such as digital and AI. We are conscious of it and are very much working on it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords—

[Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)]

We will hear from the Lib Dem Benches next.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, building on an earlier question and the Minister’s reply, she will be aware that, as well as young people claiming unemployment benefits, large numbers of them are not in education, employment or training. Given the lasting damage that long periods out of the labour market can have, especially at the start of a young person’s working life, what urgent steps—I stress the word “urgent”—is the Minister taking to meet the particular needs of this group? She has explained what we are doing long term, and I am grateful for that, but this is an urgent matter and so I would like to know what we are doing urgently.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I have just talked about what happens with young people who are hidden NEETs, as he describes. Let me turn to those who are NEET who we do know about—for example, those on sickness or disability benefits. The Government are determined to transform that. The noble Lord will have seen our Pathways to Work Green Paper, in which we describe wanting to create a new transition phase for young people from 18 to 21, such that, if they are looking to go on to sickness or disability benefits, we will treat them in a special way. We will support them from the beginning and give them the kind of help that they need. A lot of help is already out there; there is help for people with mental health and physical health issues. The bottom line is that almost everybody should be able to get a job. A small minority will not, but most will. Our job is to help them.

Sickness Benefits: In-person Interviews

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, most assessments are done in assessment centres. Many of those are conducted by providers because we have to have health providers to do them. My noble friend may be glad to know that we have specific, clear rules about what an assessment centre must do. For example, it must be appropriately accessible and reasonably easy to get to—so that someone can get from their transport to the front door—as well as DDA-compliant in terms of ramps and areas of ground-floor space, et cetera. There are specific assessment centres designed to be suited to this purpose.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister expand on the purpose of a face-to-face assessment? Is this to help people get the sickness benefit they want and need, or is it in some way to make it more difficult for people to get sickness benefit? What is the overriding reason for such attendance at an interview?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

There are various ways in which you can do an assessment. The starting point is that assessments can be done on paper where there is clear medical evidence of somebody’s diagnosis and functional needs. Some of them are really straightforward. It may be for somebody who is nearer the end of life or somebody who, for example, engages a lot with a physiotherapist or a rehab team after a stroke or a brain injury, where there is clear evidence and a clear track record. There are other people where there is not any evidence for a range of reasons. In those cases, there would need to be an assessment. It can be done on the telephone, by video or face to face.

There are different reasons for different people. Some people are unable to get to a face-to-face assessment. They may be bed-bound or may suffer from a severe mental health affliction, but they can perhaps do a video interview. Some people prefer face-to-face interviews; they feel that they will be seen better and understood better. Our aim is to try to keep all channels available and to get the right balance, both to make sure that we get the right conditions for the claimant and the right decision for the Government and to make sure that we have all the people we need there in order to try to move as fast as possible on assessments.

Child Poverty Strategy

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not be commenting on the future, because the child poverty strategy will look at the ways in which the Government will make changes, not just to the benefits system but across the piece, to tackle child poverty. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Harper, that the benefits system has so many flaws in it at the moment that we have had to go in and try to look at the way it works across the piece. We have had to recognise, for example, that the way we support people who are sick or disabled does not serve either them or the taxpayer. We are not supporting families in the appropriate way. Our job is to try to make the system work for everyone, so that those who can work and support their families do so and those who cannot work will know the state is there to support them. That is our job.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, regarding the two-child benefit and the restriction of it, I was disappointed in the things that the Minister said that the Government are doing. There was no mention of it. There needs to be not only a mention of it but a date for when it will happen. The idea that people in poverty, children in poverty, can wait while the Government pontificate on whether they will produce a change to the two-child benefit cap is a disgrace.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is clear today that I cannot satisfy the whole House, whichever way I look. I understand the noble Lord’s position on this, but every time he raises it, he accuses the Government of sitting and pontificating and doing nothing. Perhaps he did not hear my last answer. This Government are committed to extending free school meals across the whole of the universal credit spectrum, which will lift 100,000 children out of poverty in this Parliament—and we are going farther. Please can he encourage us in that, not just attack us?

Labour Market

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill Excerpts

Monday 8th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend raises a very important point about illegal working. There are certainly all kinds of difficulties attached to it. She mentioned human trafficking, but there is also the abuse of workers who are not in a position to report abuse or breaches of legislation because of their status. I reassure my noble friend that, when it comes to tackling illegal immigration and illegal working, the Government are already rolling out forms of digital ID through e-visas so that we have a digital record of someone’s ability to work and their ability to enter this country lawfully. We are determined to look at any serious proposals to help strengthen our border security and to benefit society. I can assure my noble friend that this includes digital ID.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for telling us what the Government are doing. When the Chancellor increased employers’ NI in last year’s Budget, she chose to lower the starting point for paying national insurance contributions. In practice, this has meant that employers of part-time workers have been disproportionately affected. Given that part-time and starter jobs are a good way for the unemployed to get a foot in the jobs market, does this decision not undermine the Government’s welfare to work efforts and all the positive points which the Minister has made?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The answer to the noble Lord’s question is no. The Government have had to take tough decisions and we knew that they would have some impact. However, all the signs are going in the right direction—there are real signs of progress out there. When it comes to part-time workers, I assure the noble Lord that one of the good things about the way in which the DWP is now organised is that it is tailoring and personalising the employment support it gives people in two ways: first, to get those who are not in jobs into them; and, secondly, to get those in jobs moving on within them, whether that is through more hours, better work or more skills. For example, through our new jobs and careers service, we bring together people who are not on benefits at the moment—perhaps they are working at the margin only for a few hours and do not need to claim—to be part of that. As a country, if we are to have economic growth, we will need a skilled and motivated labour force. I am confident that we are doing that well.