Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 26th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

I have received one request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, so I call him.

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his comments. Yesterday, in debating the Domestic Abuse Bill, the Government declined to include child offenders in the definition of “domestic abuse” because, as the Minister said, the Government did not want to criminalise children. In this Bill, however, they seem to be taking a hard line when it comes to child offenders. What is the difference in approach? Is it because the Government think that domestic abuse is not a serious offence where the public need to be protected but terrorism is?

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[Lord Woolf (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in view of the speeches we have had from a number of noble Lords, there is nothing which I would want to detain noble Lords with regarding this amendment. I agree that it serves a useful purpose and particularly associate myself with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, with regard to the openness of the Front Bench on behalf of the Government. Like him, I hope that will be something that will happily continue.

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson of Tredegar, to his first Bill. In my limited contact with him, I think that he is more than a match for the challenge the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, alluded to. I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, in his assessment of the current dangers of longer prison sentences in the absence of an effective programme of deradicalisation and rehabilitation. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, also mentioned the comments of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, Jonathan Hall QC. His concerns seem to chime with the concerns of all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I do not share the faith that noble Lords have in polygraph testing, for the reasons explained earlier by Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames.

My noble friend Lady Hamwee rightly expressed concerns that prisons continue to be incubators, hothouses, or academies of crime—use which term you will—for crime generally, as well as places where vulnerable inmates are radicalised, whether by right wing extremists or by others. If ever there was evidence of the need for these amendments, it is what the Government describe as the

“range of tailored interventions available”—[Official Report, 21/9/20; col. 1650]

to the perpetrators of the Fishmongers’ Hall and Streatham atrocities, that were designed to deradicalise and rehabilitate them while they were in prison. Unless and until the deradicalisation and rehabilitation of offenders is effectively applied to those sentenced under Part 1 of the Bill, and its impact is assessed, there is a real danger that the longer these terrorist offenders spend in prison, the greater the threat they pose to the safety of the public—whether by radicalising others in prison or directly upon their release. I intend to expand on these statements and the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, which I agree with, when we come to the group beginning with Amendment 16.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, my Amendment 35 is in this group. I agreed with everything my noble friend Lord Hunt said when he introduced his amendment. My amendment is different in detail, but the overall approach is the same—that is, to have a realistic and timed review of the various approaches to the Prevent programme which the Government is embarking upon.

I got an interesting briefing on this debate from the probation officers’ trade union, Napo. It made a couple of points, which I will repeat. It said that in the offender management and custody model, it indicates that a high-risk offender should get one hour of individual contact per month with a probation officer. A probation office’s staff have a minimum of 70 clients, so it is impossible for them to meet that requirement. The central point that Napo made in the briefing was that, when one reviews approaches and puts down procedures, the reviews need to result in practical change on the ground, otherwise they are destined to be repeated without effective change.

I was very interested to hear the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, who was a very effective Minister. He talked about his experience in that role. He also, interestingly, talked about the status of prisoners when they are in prison. I occasionally visit prisons, and I have visited Belmarsh on a couple of occasions. Belmarsh is a prison within a prison and there is undoubtedly status for the people on the inside prison; you can tell it from the tone of voice of the prison officers when they talk about the facility they are involved in managing. There is status to be gained through the way you are treated while in prison. I unfortunately know that to be true through friends of friends whose children have ended up in prison. There is a status to be gained within prison, which sometimes young men cannot have when they are outside prison.

I welcome the review of terrorism legislation by Mr Hall. I also note that it is Mr William Shawcross who has been appointed to review the Prevent programme, and I know he has extensive experience on this matter. The purpose of both these amendments is to tease out the progress and practical changes which the Government hope to make through reviewing the Prevent programme.

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[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the town of Tredegar is noted for its town clock, which was erected, or at least its plinth was, as a result of funds collected at a bazaar. I believe that information to be correct—and from my position in my home I think I can see the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, nodding in agreement with those facts. The Tredegar clock is always regarded as a symbol of the stability of the town—a town that has been through thick and thin, having been a place where coal was mined and steel manufactured.

The Parole Board has become one of the pillars of our prison system, and the board is seen as being as reliable as that town clock as it has developed over the years. I therefore join the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, in being really rather determined to persuade Ministers that they should take another look at the role of the Parole Board in the sentencing and licence provisions provided for by this important Bill, which I support in principle, as someone who believes that the sentences for terrorism should be long but subject to a proper, just and reasonable form of review that gives reasons if it finds against a prisoner.

I am happy to support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, not for its content but for the principle that it raises, and I invite the Minister to reflect accordingly.

[Lord Paddick (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I apologise for any inconvenience caused by my noble friend Lady Hamwee and me not speaking in the last group, where our names were included in the speakers’ list in error.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, addresses the serious question of the impact on prisoners who have no prospect of being released early or of being released at all, something that the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, spoke about in an earlier group, as did my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames.

Some indication of the potential impact comes from a report in the Times, dated 20 January 2021, on inmates at the only remaining isolation unit for extremist prisoners in Her Majesty’s Prison Frankland. These isolation units were designed to keep the most dangerous ideological prisoners away from the general prison population so that they could not radicalise vulnerable inmates, as other noble Lords have mentioned in today’s debate. One of those units was mothballed before it was opened, another is empty, and the one at Frankland houses five prisoners out of a capacity of eight. There are currently about 200 terrorist prisoners in the UK.

According to the Times, a report by the independent monitoring board at the prison says that inmates in the unit have become more entrenched in their views, that they are refusing to co-operate or to engage in activities and programmes—except for the gym—and that they are distinguished from other prisoners by a lack of progression. They display antagonism and hostility to staff, with one of the prisoners responsible for a serious assault on a prison officer in the centre.

Locking people up with no incentive to behave or co-operate is likely to be counterproductive, and the Times report supports that assertion. We support the amendment.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment would require the Government to report on whether the removal of Parole Board consideration of certain prisoners’ release impacts their behaviour in prison. We return once again to the quite proper desire of the Committee for objective data to allow proper evaluation of the usefulness of measures. The point is an important one, but the Government do not think that a review and a report such as the amendment proposes would be practical or beneficial at this time. I will set out why in brief terms.

To carry out such an exercise would require there to be clearly defined factors influencing prisoner behaviour in custody, against which one could evaluate the distinct impact of the prospect of Parole Board consideration in a sentence. Such an evaluation method is simply not feasible. It would be impossible to measure the behavioural effect of a prisoner sentenced under provisions in this Bill expecting a future Parole Board hearing, compared to a counterfactual in which the Parole Board would consider the case. The amendment goes further, implying that the removal of Parole Board referral for some cases could impact on prisoner behaviour more widely. This would be even more impracticable to assess.

The policy intent across these measures is clear; the sentences available to the courts for terrorism offences should be proportionate to the gravity of these crimes and provide confidence for victims and the public. In some cases, this will mean that terrorist offenders spend longer in custody before release. To provide some reassurance further to what we have given from the Dispatch Box this afternoon about what will be done in that additional time in custody, I will make two remarks.

First, there is the hard work of prison staff with prisoners in their care, whatever their sentence or release arrangements. As your Lordships will have gathered, we deploy specialist counterterrorism staff to work with terrorist offenders, and we are recruiting more of these officers than ever before through the counterterrorism step up programme.

Secondly, the new counterterrorism assessment and rehabilitation centre, which your Lordships have heard about from the Dispatch Box, will drive the development, innovation and evidence-based delivery of our rehabilitative interventions. The centre will transform our capability to intervene effectively with terrorist offenders, including those sentenced under this Bill and those who will be released automatically. The Bill will be scrutinised in the usual way, including a statutory review after three years.

I now turn to contributions from Members in this short, but hopefully valuable, debate. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb; she succeeded in doing from her Benches what I was unable to do from the Dispatch Box earlier in answer to a direct request, by identifying Mr Shawcross in his new post. I hope the noble Baroness will accept my further assurances as to the seriousness with which the Government take the points she raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, in an elegant allusion to the values of the town clock at Tredegar, drew our attention to the important work of the Parole Board. We on this side share the noble Lord’s high estimation of the Parole Board. I promise, on behalf of myself and my noble friend and colleague, that we will reflect carefully on the observations made by the noble Lord and by others in the course of debate.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 20th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Marks. Before doing so, I join in his tribute to the Government for their achievement in reducing the numbers of young people in custody by 2,000 in the past few years. It is a tremendous achievement. In some ways, I regret having to disagree with the Government on this particular point, because, of course, I would like to support a Government who have achieved so much for the welfare of the kind of young people that we are dealing with here.

I listened with interest to what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said about young black men—that they are more likely to be victims of knife crimes themselves— and her concern about that aspect of the issue. It is a difficult question. Obviously, young people who carry knives around are a threat to themselves and to other young men. They are likely either to get knifed themselves because somebody else sees that they have a knife or to harm somebody else with a knife. On the other hand, there has been a growth in gang culture, a transformation in gang culture. One can see this when visiting young offender institutions. Many young people might be in great fear for their lives. Perhaps one reason why some of them might continue to carry a knife, even though they have been convicted of having one before, is that they have a genuine fear that somebody else is going to attack them with a knife.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said that 16 and 17 year-olds can get married and join the Army. That is a good point. But I think we need to keep in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said about the particular nature of the young people who come before the courts in these circumstances. We might need to bring up the issue of developmental delay affecting children who have experienced a long history of trauma, who have grown up in chaotic or insecure families, who might have been traumatised in various ways over a long period of time, who might have been let down by the people whom they most trusted, or who, when they have been betrayed in that way, have had no one to listen to them or try to help them recognise the trauma that they have experienced. Young people like that might experience a developmental delay, so that they might appear to be a normal 16 or 17 year-olds physically, but in their way of seeing the world, in their inner world, they are actually much more immature.

I particularly draw attention to the question of young people who have been in local authority care and of care leavers. On Friday, a clinical psychologist was speaking to the Institute of Recovery from Childhood Trauma. She was describing these children who have a history similar to the one I just described and the way that they will often become very self-reliant. They believe that they have to do everything for themselves and they are distrustful of people in authority. Therefore one can see a young person in care, or a care-leaver—I am talking about probably a small minority—who, if they are told by a policeman or a court that they must not carry a knife, will respond to that authority by saying, “Well, I’ll do exactly the opposite of what you’re telling me”. Their history of being abused by others may make them particularly fearful. It may seem to them particularly rational to protect themselves, to be self-reliant—to carry their own weaponry. Their experience is of a world that is unkind and which attacks them. Therefore I would be grateful to the Minister if in his reply, or perhaps afterwards, he could say whether particular attention will be paid to children in care and young people leaving care to ensure that they are offered, at least on a second conviction, the opportunity to have a mentor, for instance, or peer-mentoring, or some other diversion, which might make a great difference to them, rather than putting them into custody.

My final point is that, thanks to the Government’s great achievement in reducing the numbers of children in custody, custody for children is now a much more difficult experience in many ways. All the rotten eggs, if you like, are in one basket, and that can be a very tough environment. We are sending these young people into what is possibly a very adverse environment. I strongly support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and I hope that your Lordships will accept it.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Marks’s amendment. In particular, I will address what has been suggested is an inconsistency, in that 16 and 17 year-olds who use knives to threaten people are subject to mandatory imprisonment, whereas this would be inconsistent with 16 and 17 year-olds being excluded from mandatory imprisonment for possession. However, there are circumstances, in particular where older young men pass weapons—particularly when faced with an oncoming police officer—to younger members of the group, who are intimidated into taking possession of those weapons. Therefore, they could in those circumstances be carrying a knife innocently, as it were. As my noble friend said, if those are the circumstances of the original or even the secondary offence, those individuals should not be subject to mandatory imprisonment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, seeks to take out 16 and 17 year-olds from the scope of a mandatory custodial sentence for possession of a knife in a public place. I have considerable respect for the noble Lord and a good deal of sympathy for what he is trying to achieve. However, if he pushes this to a vote today, I will not support him in the Division Lobby.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, said, there is already provision in the Bill as it stands for the court to show some discretion if it is of the opinion that there are particular circumstances which relate to the offence and which would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Marks, said, this provision was put into the Bill during its passage through the Commons by the honourable Member for Enfield North, and technically it was not a government amendment. Perhaps that was not the easiest way to have done this. However, I see the deterrent effect of such provisions and I am not convinced that removing all 16 and 17 year-olds from the scope of this would be helpful.

I am well aware that knife crime is falling, and I want that to continue. However, there are also parts of London where this sort of crime is still far too high, and we have to take action to ensure that we reduce this type of offending. During Committee—and I have talked about this before—I explained to the House that I was born in Lambeth and grew up in Southwark. I am involved with a little charity there which works with some kids on the council estates. It is quite shocking when you go down there. There are kids living on the Wyndham estate who will not cross the Camberwell New Road into Lambeth because they are terrified that they will be attacked—knifed, and so on. That is what we have to deal with. We need the council to do things, but we also need strong deterrents from the courts as well.

This provision is for all young people—those 16 and over and those 18 and over—not for a first but for a second offence. So they will have previously been caught and convicted of an offence with a knife and can be under no illusion what the likely outcome is if they are caught for a second time. We must do everything we can to stop young people killing each other with knives on our streets, which is a tragedy. However well intentioned this amendment is, it will not help achieve that aim.

However, the Government should give a commitment to review this provision after a couple of years, maybe even bringing forward a sunset clause at Third Reading. That would enable us to evaluate exactly what happens over the next couple of years and to take any corrective action quickly.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 28th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carswell (CB)]

My Lords, in brief compass I will say, if I may, that I support the amendments and all that has been said about Clause 64 by those who have opposed it. I am a little hesitant to express matters in terms of my experience because the vast experience of noble Lords with judicial and advocacy experience is such that mine appears very minor. However, it is rather personal and I may be able to give the Committee some idea from that why I regard this as not only undesirable but unnecessary.

The courts have quite sufficient powers to deal with the matters contained in Clause 64. I can tell the Committee exactly why I say I know that. When judicial review was coming on stream in Northern Ireland in 1984 it was exactly the time I became a judge in the High Court. I was put in charge of those matters coming before the High Court and grew up with it. If I may say so, I helped to shape it and to form the judicial approach to the development of judicial review in our jurisdiction. I was very attentive all the while to the way in which it was being developed very well indeed in the jurisdiction in England and in other jurisdictions. I know from personal experience that the judges have the necessary powers. All they need to do is exercise them sensibly and robustly, with a careful eye to the justice of the individual case.

Once you write down these things and put them into legislation, as I have had occasion to say to the House before, two things happen. The first is that you cannot legislate for everything; there will be difficult and borderline cases when the shoe pinches and the exercise of discretion is an essential part of achieving justice. Secondly, once you write things down, it will give rise to an industry of finding ways round it. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, it will give rise to satellite litigation. For those reasons I strongly oppose the adoption of Clause 64. It may well be right—and I would not rule it out—that the pendulum should swing to some extent. The Government may have some perfectly valid points about matters that should be attended to, but this is not the way to do it.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to this amendment. It will become apparent very quickly that I am not a lawyer, and never have been, but I have been involved in one case of judicial review as a result of becoming a victim of phone hacking.

The fact that I was a victim of phone hacking became known to the police, but the police did not inform either me or other victims when that information came to their notice. As a consequence, together with others, we took the Metropolitan Police to judicial review on two counts: first, over its failure thoroughly to investigate phone hacking in the first instance; and, secondly, on its failure to inform those that it knew were either victims or potential victims of phone hacking to enable them to take steps to guard their privacy. The court found that whether the police should have investigated thoroughly the first time round was entirely a matter for the police. However, on the issue of whether the Metropolitan Police should have informed the victims of phone hacking, the court found that it was under a legal obligation to inform them. That important principle was therefore established through this judicial review.

Bearing in mind that by the time we brought the judicial review we had been informed by the police that we were victims of phone hacking, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that the outcome of that application would not have been substantially different for us? In other words, we already knew that we were victims, but we wanted to establish the principle that the police should have told us earlier. If Clause 64 were enacted, we may not have been able to bring that judicial review and establish the important principle that the police must inform victims of this sort of crime as soon as they become aware of it.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I, of course, have nothing like the width of experience that has been spoken of already by a number of noble and learned Lords and other noble Lords. However, I have a certain amount of responsibility in connection with judicial review from quite an early stage.

Your Lordships will remember that the law of England originally provided for four rights, which were prerogative writs that had the effect of controlling the subordinate powers at the insistence of the High Court. That is because the High Court is a court of universal jurisdiction. The difficulties of these particular prerogative writs were gradually appreciated and, eventually, the judges decided that it would be a good idea to have a new form of procedure called judicial review. They ultimately incorporated it in a rule of court which, as I remember, was called Order 53, and that was the situation for some time. However, it was not long before the judges themselves decided that it was not good enough to have procedure of this kind depending only on an Order 53 rule of court. It was therefore important that this became statutory and that Parliament should have responsibility for the legislation which affects and controls the process of judicial review. It is therefore 100% clear that Parliament has authority to deal with this. That does not necessarily mean, of course, that any particular action proposed to Parliament by a Government is necessarily the best thing to do.

However, I would like to mention one or two aspects of this. The first is from the point of view of planning. I used to practise some planning work in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s and in the planning legislation there was, I think almost from the start, always a provision empowering an applicant or a person aggrieved by a decision in the planning field to apply to the court. There were two branches of that: first, where there was no power to make the decision; and, secondly, where the decision was the result of a failure of process. I think that the current form is in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, where the second provision is,

“that the interests of the applicant have been substantially prejudiced by a failure to comply with a procedural requirement”.

It is important to see that it applies where the interests of the applicant have been “substantially prejudiced” by a failure of procedure.

I think that that system worked well. In due course, of course, as a result of various decisions, including a decision of this House in its judicial capacity, in which I took part, it was held that judicial review was sometimes available even when there was a statutory form of appeal, and therefore judicial review started to be used in the planning field, notwithstanding the provision that I have just referred to. A number of cases came along, one of which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, will remember, when somebody was faced with a document at the beginning of a hearing before the inspector, and the inspector granted him an adjournment only until lunchtime. Lord Denning and his colleagues, notwithstanding the eloquent defence by Mr Woolf, as he then was, found against the Secretary of State. However, that is a success of the old form and the present form of statutory appeal.

In a more recent case at the Court of Appeal, the leading judgment was given by the judge who was the senior presiding judge in England in my time, Lord Justice Auld, who said, on dismissing the appeal:

“In doing so I add a note of dissatisfaction at the way the availability of the remedy of judicial review can be exploited— some might say abused—as a commercial weapon by rival potential developers to frustrate and delay their competitors’ approved developments, rather than for any demonstrated concern about potential environmental or other planning harm. By the time of the hearing of this appeal, as is often the case, the approved scheme in issue is clearly of a piece with—”

what was already there. So, the danger of judicial review as a means of trying to damage competitors was recognised. My noble friend Lord Horam has given a number of cases in which that has actually taken place. That warning was given a considerable time ago and I am delighted to hear that now—this is a fairly recent development—there is a Divisional Court in the High Court with expertise in planning able to deal with planning applications very speedily indeed. That is highly desirable.

The other thing I want to mention is that, when I was first in practice, we did not particularly think that we were not under the rule of law, although there was no judicial review. Another aspect of the law which was quite important was that there were finality clauses in most Acts of Parliament making the decision of the Minister or the authority final and unable to be upset by any judicial procedure. That was a fundamental protection for the Executive, for local authorities and so on—all sorts of bodies had that kind of protection. The Foreign Compensation Commission happened to be the one selected for trial and in Anisminic v Foreign Compensation Commission the judges found the way around this finality clause in such a way that these finality clauses have ultimately disappeared. Therefore, the scope for judicial review is very much greater than for the prerogative writs that were in position originally.

I was involved in one of the early cases on development of judicial review in respect of the standing of, or the right to bring, such a case. Certainly, there is an interesting issue in relation to some of the clauses in this part of the Bill about forming private companies simply for the purpose of promoting a particular judicial review in the hope of protecting perhaps fairly wealthy, not in any way impecunious, people from the possibility of costs. That is a development in relation to judicial review which I think requires consideration.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

We are not persuaded that there is any justification for the approach embodied in this clause beyond, I regret to say, a desire to appeal to a populist press with an eye-catching message that we are tough on knife crime. I invite Members of your Lordships’ House not to yield to the temptation to look tough on crime by passing a measure that would actually do nothing whatever to reduce crime.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Marks, I also oppose this clause. The provisions for compulsory terms of imprisonment run contrary to all my professional experience as a police officer of over 30 years and my instincts as a Liberal Democrat. No doubt some of your Lordships might be more convinced by one of those categories of argument than the other. All I seek to do is ask your Lordships to consider that this provision may actually make us less rather than more safe.

At Second Reading, my noble friend the Minister offered but one reason to support this measure. He said:

“It sends out a strong signal that carrying a bladed weapon is serious and has serious consequences if you are caught for a second offence”.—[Official Report, 30/6/14; col. 1621.]

The question is: who will listen to that strong signal?

At Second Reading, I referred to the anecdote of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, who is quoted as having visited HM Prison and Young Offender Institution Feltham, where young offenders apparently told him they no longer carry guns because there is a minimum term of five years’ imprisonment. However, a former police colleague carried out extensive academically overseen research into the attitude of offenders at Feltham and his conclusions were that the overwhelming majority of offenders rarely thought about the consequences of their crimes before they acted; they had no intention of getting caught, so the legal penalty was irrelevant.

To take a different example, how many of the millions of young people who take drugs every week in this country make their choice on the basis of what category the drug is in and therefore what the likely penalty is before deciding which drug to take?

Even if the Commissioner managed to find some who thought differently, there is a world of difference between a handgun—where there is no lawful reason for carrying one in the street—and a knife, where the carrier can give many innocent explanations to the police officer who stops him. There is also a world of difference between a minimum of five years’ imprisonment and the four months or six months proposed in this clause.

I have worked in parts of London where knife crime is prevalent. I was a sergeant and a chief inspector and a police commander in Lambeth. I was also the chair of trustees of a charity that was dedicated to diverting young people in Lambeth in south London away from crime. I have talked with former offenders and those working alongside them and all my experience tells me that the best way to deal with knife carriers is to allow judges the discretion to hand down the appropriate sentence tailored to the individual, and not to tie their hands by forcing them to impose a term of imprisonment.

Like my noble friend Lord Marks I will address the issue of judicial discretion that is within the clause. My noble friend the Minister may say that there is judicial discretion, and it is worth repeating that new subsection (2B) states that the court must impose a term of imprisonment unless it is of the opinion that there are particular circumstances relating to the offence or to the offender that would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances. With the greatest respect to the Minister, he cannot have it both ways. Either this sends the clear message that a second-time knife carrier will go to prison if caught or it sends a mixed message that you may go to prison, depending on the circumstances. If it is the latter, other than partisan political point-scoring and the attention-grabbing and misleading headline, “Compulsory Prison for Knife Carriers”, what is the point of this clause?

Short-term imprisonment does not work. It delivers the worst of both worlds—taking offenders out of society and making it more difficult for them to maintain social ties and employment, while not allowing them to benefit from any kind of education, training or rehabilitation regime during their short time in prison. Fifty-nine per cent of those in prison for less than 12 months reoffend within a year of release. In June, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons, Nick Hardwick, reportedly said:

“Resources are now stretched very thinly ... there is a pretty clear choice for politicians and policy makers—reduce prison populations or increase prison budgets”.

Will the Minister—I also ask this of the party opposite—tell the House by how much the Government will need to increase prison budgets to cope with the increase in prison population that this provision will inevitably bring about?

For those who might say that a price cannot be placed on saving lives, my whole point is that this provision would do nothing of the kind. The courts already have the power, as my noble friend Lord Marks has said, to send those who deserve to go to prison for carrying a knife to prison—and to send them to prison for a long time. It is absolutely right that they should be able to do so.

A much better way to reduce knife carrying on our streets is to get ex-offenders—people who at-risk young people can relate to—into our schools, to tell young people, from their own experience, not to waste their lives and those of their potential victims by carrying a knife. With the greatest respect, they are far more likely to listen to them than to politicians and police officers about the sentence they will get in the unlikely event of their being caught.

We must increase the chances of knife-carriers getting caught. A much better way of reducing knife carrying on our streets is to encourage those within communities where the knife carriers live and operate to tell the police who they are, so that the police can target their stop-and-search operations on criminals. If these people know that passing such information will result in people being imprisoned without question, they will be even more reluctant to tell the police.

I served in inner London boroughs throughout my police career. Even as a senior officer I walked the streets. Last Monday was typical. When I left this House at 10.45 pm, I got the bus to Elephant and Castle and I walked home. If I believed that this provision would make people safer, I would have every personal incentive to support it and certainly would not oppose it. I do not support this clause and I urge noble Lords to oppose it as well.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 14th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in policing as a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers, and as a former commissioner and senior police officer. I first congratulate the Government on its resolve to deal with police corruption, past and present. Many wrongs have been righted that were long overdue. However, I share the reservations expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Dear, on Clause 23, and expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Blair, on Clause 24.

The challenge in dealing with police corruption is not the absence of relevant offences; it has always been the inability to establish credible, usable evidence of such behaviour. A new offence does not mean that the job is done and police corruption is ticked off the list of things to do. The fight against police corruption requires a well resourced and confident Independent Police Complaints Commission; profound ongoing ethical and cultural change in the police service, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Dear; and vigilance that is sustained at all times, not just at the point of a particular scandal. All I ask the Minister to acknowledge on Clause 23 is that it is but a small piece of a much larger endeavour, which seeks to sustain and improve ethical policing, and deal with police corruption.

During my time in your Lordships’ House I have heard from all sides, and from the noble Lord, Lord Blair, that symbolic legislation is rarely good legislation. Clause 24, which my name is attached to in questioning, feels like a piece of symbolic, public relations legislation. There is no evidence that judges do not view the murder of police or prison officers with the upmost seriousness and sentence accordingly. I share the same concern articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Blair. The clause means well, and I thank the Government for it, but I am not being patronising in saying I hope they have thought through what could be the extreme implications of it. It may be only rare cases, but I fear that a criminal on the run who has—or believes he has—murdered a police officer has nothing more to fear if whole life sentences are in place. With a warped mind in such circumstances, they might seek to shoot, stab or bludgeon their way out of an arrest scenario—or seek suicide by policeman, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Blair.

I do not feel strongly opposed to either of these clauses, but I have reservations relating to Clause 23, for the reasons I have said. I have a nagging fear that Clause 24 could have a perverse effect. All I seek from the Minister at this point is whether there has been sufficient consultation with the police service, as currently organised and led, relating to Clause 24. Can he reassure me that my fears are perhaps old fashioned and outdated?

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I briefly rise to support the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Dear, on Clause 23. I spoke on this issue at Second Reading. I do not want to repeat what the noble Lords have already said very clearly and eloquently, but one of the reasons that was given for this new piece of legislation was that it would include the corrupt activities of police officers while off duty. However, in the Plebgate case, to which the noble Lord, Lord Blair, has already referred, one officer has been successfully prosecuted and jailed for misconduct in a public office. That officer was not on duty at the time of the offence—indeed, he was not even at the scene of the event. Therefore, I should like to hear from the Minister in what way this new legislation adds to the offence that is already successfully used to prosecute police officers for misconduct in a public office.

The noble Lord, Lord Dear, has a distinguished record in tackling police corruption, particularly in relation to the West Midlands serious crime squad. I believe that if the noble Lord is opposing Clause 23 then the Minister should listen very carefully to what he has to say.

I could not put the reasons for opposing Clause 24 any better than the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Condon. The arguments that they have put forward are compelling. If a series of former senior police officers in this House are saying that the provisions of Clause 24 are both unnecessary and dangerous, I respectfully suggest that my noble friend the Minister should listen.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I want to speak to both Clauses 23 and 24 to aid your Lordships’ House.

The Opposition cannot support the noble Lords, Lord Blair, Lord Dear, Lord Condon and Lord Paddick, in opposing Clause 23. I have heard very clearly the points that they have made concerning police officers being public servants with special provisions being made for them. They are obviously highly respected individuals and public servants but, with that, they carry great responsibility and great power. Where those officers exercise that power or privilege improperly, there can be tremendous consequences for the individuals concerned. That is the concern that we have on these Benches and it is why we will support the clause as it stands.

Moving on to Clause 24, the murder of a police officer is of course a most serious crime, and it is right that anyone killing a police officer in the course of their duty should receive a substantial jail term. This clause would make that a whole life term. My colleagues in the other place supported the Government, as we do today on the Opposition Front Bench. The noble Lords, Lord Blair, Lord Condon and Lord Dear, have all been senior police officers and have all expressed grave reservations about this provision, saying that it is unnecessary. Like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I very much hope that the Minister will meet the noble Lords and other representatives and look at this issue very carefully. The last thing that anyone wants to do is to agree to a Bill that puts more people’s lives at risk. I am very worried about that. We must look carefully at what they have said and talk to them about this issue because it would be madness to do anything else.

These are very difficult issues. Obviously everyone wants to root out corruption at any level. Regarding Clause 23, the consequences for the victims of police corruption are very serious.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Lord Paddick Excerpts

Monday 30th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I am concerned about the general thrust of this Bill. As my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames and the noble and learned Lord have already said, that general concern is what appears to be a withdrawal of power and discretion from judges and handing it to Ministers.

There are particular provisions I want to speak about. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, criticised the Government for headline-grabbing measures. I hope that the Labour Opposition are not going to support headline-grabbing measures that suit their advantage and will actually oppose some of those measures that I think are headline grabbing, the first of which is Clause 23 on the corrupt or other improper exercise of police powers and privileges. Members of the House may wonder why I am speaking about this. Having been a police officer for 30 years, I thought that it might be obvious. I do not think that I can be accused of being an apologist for the police service. Anyone who thinks that should see last week’s “Panorama” programme. Indeed, I was one of the parties who took the police to judicial review over the phone hacking issue, and I will come back to that in a moment.

A number of cases concerning police misconduct have recently come into the public consciousness—one was mentioned by the Minister in his opening speech. However, the one recent case that resulted in a prosecution was that of a police officer for misconduct in a public office. Although the police officer was off duty, the case was successful and he was jailed. Therefore, I have two questions for the Minister. Like my noble friend Lord Marks, I accept that the police have special powers, but is the measure necessary at all in that there is an overlap with misconduct in a public office, which appears to be entirely adequate to cover the matters in the new provision? I am a liberal and I believe that we should have new laws only if they are absolutely necessary.

Secondly, if a new offence of misconduct in a public office is necessary, why have police officers alone been singled out for this offence? Other people who hold public office have similar powers—for example, immigration officers and officers from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. If we are talking about access to confidential information that might be given inappropriately to the media, we should note that people working in the intelligence services and the Ministry of Defence also have access to such information. Indeed, what about the conduct of politicians? We have powers and privileges and some of us have been found to have allegedly offered to ask Parliamentary Questions for money or claimed expenses to which we are not entitled. However, these new provisions do not cover any of that. Will the Minister therefore please reassure the House that the police are not being unreasonably singled out by this proposal? In his opening remarks, he said that the existing offence of misconduct in public office was not always best suited to dealing with corruption. I would be grateful if he would elaborate on what that means.

Clause 25, which was introduced by way of an amendment in the other place, concerns the possession of an offensive weapon or bladed article in public or on school premises and the imposition of a mandatory custodial sentence. Consistent with my general concerns about the Bill and the removal of judicial discretion, not only does this clause compel judges to impose an “appropriate custodial sentence”, it goes on to define what that sentence is. The whole point of having judges, social workers, the probation service and, in some cases, medical experts providing reports on the backgrounds of those convicted of offences is to ensure that custodial and non-custodial sentences imposed by judges are appropriate. I also suggest that the imposition of a fixed custodial sentence in criminal proceedings without taking into account the antecedents of the accused should never be considered an appropriate custodial sentence. One has to ask what is the purpose of imposing such a draconian and inflexible punishment? In my considerable experience as a police officer, criminals rarely, if ever, think about what the likely penalty will be before they commit a crime because they do not anticipate getting caught.

In support of this amendment, some have quoted the current Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, who says that he met offenders in a young offender institution and they told him that they no longer carried guns because of the mandatory five-year sentence for possession. Rather than a single anecdote, a colleague of mine conducted academically rigorous research with young offenders at the same institution, albeit some time ago. Most of them did not understand how they found themselves incarcerated—let alone that this was a possibility at the forefront of their mind when they committed street robbery. Surely the purpose of any legislation relating to the carrying of knives and other offensive weapons must be to reduce the rate of offending and reoffending. Even with longer sentences, any beneficial effect of a custodial sentence is often thwarted by the overcrowding in prisons—a problem that will only be made worse by measures such as this. What is likely to have the most beneficial effect on knife crime is to create the realistic belief in the mind of offenders that they will be caught.

In order to improve the chances that this will happen, the police need to work closely with people in communities prone to this type of crime, who know who the knife-carriers are, and who need to be encouraged to pass on such information to the police. If these members of the public believe that their son, partner or friend will definitely be sent to prison if found in possession of a knife, they are even less likely to provide that information to the police than they are now. In the absence of such specific intelligence, the police have to resort to the type of stop-and-search operations that create division and resentment between the police and their communities. Making detection more, not less, likely and allowing judges to tailor sentences in a way that they consider offers the best chance of rehabilitating the offender before them, rather than an inappropriate short-term sentence that is unlikely to prevent reoffending, must be a much better way forward.

Finally, on a very different issue, I want to express my concern about the proposed changes to the provision of information about financial resources in relation to judicial review, contained in Clause 65. The new provision requires that the applicant for judicial review declares not only how the application will be financed but,

“information about the source, nature and extent of financial resources available, or likely to be available, to the applicant to meet liabilities arising in connection with the application”.

Again, I want to speak about my personal experience. As we have learnt over recent years and were reminded last week, evidence came into possession of the police that many people had potentially been the victims of phone hacking by News International, including me. Yet the police not only failed to properly investigate those offences first time round, apparently for reason of “lack of resources”, they also failed to tell the potential victims that they had identified them as potential targets of illegal phone hacking. In a police decision log relating to the case, a decision is recorded that these victims should be informed. There is no subsequent decision recorded that the police should not inform victims, and there is no explanation to date about why that original decision was not implemented.

I and other victims, including the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, decided to ask for a judicial review of, among other things, the police decision not even to inform the victims of potential phone hacking, as we felt that there was a fundamental principle here about the right to a private and family life, and the police’s responsibility to help such victims to protect their privacy. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, put it more eloquently: “They should have told us to watch our phones”. Thankfully, our lawyers were equally incensed and agreed to work under a conditional fee agreement, but insurance against the costs payable to the other side if the case failed is very difficult to secure in such cases, and in this case it proved to be impossible.

Again thankfully, a rich benefactor agreed to underwrite the other side’s costs in the event of our losing the case, but on the strict agreement that his identity would not be revealed unless and until it was necessary to do so. We won the judicial review on the point that the police had acted illegally by not informing the victims of phone hacking in these circumstances, but it is doubtful that the case would have been brought at all if it were not for that benefactor. When I discussed the Bill with my lawyers, they questioned whether the proposed legislation would apply where costs are simply underwritten rather than when payment is made before the case proceeds. I should be grateful if the Minister can clarify whether a case such as mine would be affected by these new proposals.

It appears to me that important cases—my case is but one—are not going to be heard in the courts and important points of law are not going to be established if the Bill is passed as it stands. I wish my noble friend the very best of luck in reassuring me and this House on the issues I have raised.