Bus Industry Support

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We have seen a decline in the number of people using concessionary fares since the pandemic; certainly, those are the sorts of people who we want to get back on to buses. It is so important. We are reviewing a number of elements of the concessionary fare structure and, of particular importance to local transport authorities, we are looking at and will be consulting on the reimbursement guidance and calculator during the course of 2023 to ensure that local transport authorities are getting the money back from the system that they need to fully cover concessionary fares.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, seeing as we are considering public money for buses, will the Government consider the case in urban areas for switching to lightweight trams, which last for 20 years rather than 12 and, because they have steel wheels, do not emit toxic particulates from rubber? Most importantly, they run on biomethane, and the Government have a commitment to reduce by 30% the methane produced in this country by 2030.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are a great supporter of trams. Indeed, much of the money that we gave to local metro mayors—about £5.7 billion, I think, in the CRSTS—is going to extending tram systems in their areas. Of course, for other local authorities, it is up to them to bring forward tram proposals, should they have them.

Aviation: Large Electronic Device Ban

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me again assure the noble Lord and the whole House that Her Majesty’s Government act in the best interests of our citizens. We do not take these issues lightly, as all previous Governments have not, and we have acted in exactly the same manner. We will continue to put the interests of the UK travelling public first. As to a universal ban, as I have said already this is a matter for individual Governments, but of course we talk to our European partners. This is very much a matter for each sovereign Government to make in accordance with how they see fit.

[Lord Marlesford]

In view of what my noble friend has been saying about being satisfied with airport security in some of these countries, and given that Egypt has been put on that list, will he now accelerate the resumption of flights to Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt by British carriers—German carriers are allowing it? It is wrecking the Egyptian tourist industry, which is doing huge damage to the Egyptian economy, when Egypt is one of the countries that is very much on our side and is trying to inject an element of real stability and prosperity into the Middle East.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises the specific issue of Sharm el-Sheikh. As he will be aware, Her Majesty’s Government—indeed, officials from my department—work specifically with the Egyptians on the ground. Yes, indeed, measures have been improved in Sharm el-Sheikh, but I remind him and your Lordships’ House that even though the tragic events on the Metrojet flight were well over a year and a half ago, in October 2015, we have not yet seen the final report from either the Egyptians or the Russians relating to that incident.

Disabled People: Employment

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am of course happy to do that along with my colleagues from the DWP; the very diligent Minister in this House from the DWP will take note of that. I assure the noble Baroness that the Green Paper is there to be consulted on. If there are practical suggestions as to how this can be improved, the Government are of course listening.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing about London transport, where there are far too many Underground stations where less able people have no access to the platforms, either by escalator or elevator? That is really appalling as far as getting to work is concerned.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

According to the statistics on passenger accessibility, London is much better than other parts of the country, but my noble friend raises important issues about the accessibility of platforms in certain parts of the London transport network. TfL has a programme to ensure that that can be delivered in accordance with the needs of all the travelling public, including those who need to travel to work and suffer from disabilities.

Aviation: Sharm el-Sheikh

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As a former Minister responsible for countering extremism, I can assure the noble Lord that we are very much cognisant of the challenges we face, not just on aviation security. We work very closely, here in the UK and abroad, to ensure that those challenges of counter-radicalisation can be met head on and are working with communities on the ground.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, do the Government recognise that Egypt is one of the few beacons of hope in the Middle East? To allow its economy to be damaged as it is being damaged risks undermining President Sisi’s attempt to establish a tolerant, secular state where all religions are acceptable, and risks encouraging the Islamists who are still trying to regain power through the Muslim Brotherhood.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure my noble friend, as I have already intimated, that we, more than any other country, have been working very closely with the Egyptians on the ground and we continue to do so. Indeed, we have a permanent presence in Egypt, not just in Sharm but in other airports, to ensure first and foremost the safety and security of our own citizens, but equally working closely with the Egyptian authorities to ensure we can have the resumption of flights as soon as possible.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 5th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I suggest to the Opposition Front Bench that the continuing message from the opinion polls, as confirmed by the results of the European Parliament elections a couple of weeks ago, is that criticism from Mr Miliband or Mr Balls of how the Government have handled the economy is very unconvincing.

The Chancellor has taken us out of the recession. That is what matters. Britain is growing at 3.3%, the same as Germany and much more than the USA. Socialist France, under the disastrous M Hollande, who is, in some ways, as weird as Mr Miliband, is growing at a derisory 0.1%. Italy is still in recession. Even with Germany to help it, the eurozone is making only 0.8% growth, while the rate in Britain is 3.3%. Unemployment, on the ILO basis, in the last quarter of 2013 was 7.1% in Britain while the rate in the eurozone was 12%, with France at 10.8%, Italy at 12.7% and Spain at a horrific 25%. The US rate is 7% and in Germany it is an enviable 5.1%. Net borrowing has been greatly reduced from 11% of GDP during Labour’s last year in office to 6.6% in 2013-14. However, not surprisingly, net debt—that is, the total government borrowing—is still far too high at 76% of GDP, well above the comparable Maastricht 60% target. We had been well below the Maastricht limit for more than 30 years until Gordon Brown so unwisely took the brakes off the economy. Inflation, the monster we must never forget, is not on the horizon but is never off the map. In 2010, using the old RPI, which I believe to be a much better indicator than the CPI, it was 4.8% and is currently 2.5%.

All this, of course, involved a period of austerity, with most of us seeing our take-home earnings falling in real terms over the past four years. Mr Miliband says that all this could have been achieved without the pain of austerity. Indeed, he implies that he would take the brakes off again. That reminds me of the story of Columbus and the egg. When Columbus came back from discovering America, the King of Spain gave him a great banquet and everyone praised him. Some of the courtiers were rather jealous. They said, “We could have done that, too. Why all this praise for Columbus?”. Columbus—after dinner, admittedly—took an egg and asked, “Can anybody balance this egg on its end?”. They all tried and of course could not do so. He tapped the bottom of the egg until it was nice and flat, and made it stand on its end. They all said, “We could have done that”. “Yes”, he said, “when I had shown you how”.

Having given priority to the views of Mr Miliband, let me come on to the advice we are getting from the EU on how we should run our economy. When I read it, I was reminded of the remark of the great Clement Attlee to Harold Laski when he was at his most loquacious:

“A period of silence on your part would be welcome”.

I would make one point on the EU and tax. Following the European Parliament elections, the Commission really must face up to the impracticality of the financial transaction tax unless it is operated on a global basis. Sub-Committee A of the EU Committee, which I am about to leave after four stimulating years under the excellent chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, spent many months pointing out that the FTT was potentially deeply damaging to Britain’s position as Europe’s financial centre. London is one of the three great financial centres of the world, along with New York and Hong Kong. Now that there is diminishing support for the FTT, it should be abandoned and there should be a focus on introducing a workable stamp duty.

I want to mention one particular worry over the economy—the amount of toxic debt that still lurks. I want to take one item only as an example: the level of credit card debt that has overrun. It is not the debt that you and I pay off each month, but what is not being paid off and is therefore subject to very high rates of interest—anything between 16% and 26%. On the whole, few people can afford to borrow at such rates. Certainly, the sort of people who use credit cards to do so cannot afford it. It is basically unsecured debt and is therefore highly toxic. The last time the banks sold off this debt to the debt collectors they received between 8p and 12p in the pound for it. The level of that debt is currently more than £57 billion—more than £1,000 for every adult in the UK. It is also more than 20% of the market cap of all five big banks put together. In terms of stress tests on banks, we are talking serious money. Let us be clear that this consumer debt is completely different from mortgage debt, which is, to a large extent, secured by the houses on which it is made. The percentage growth in overrun credit card debt is interesting. It had been in single figures until the middle 1990s. It increased to 13% by the start of 1995, it increased hugely to 25% a year later and it has only recently started to come down again. Actually, it is beginning to creep up again. There is, for me, an unsolved mystery in the difference between the monthly figures published by the British Bankers’ Association and those published by the Bank of England. I am trying to discover the reasons.

Finally, I turn to the issue of how to deal with the taxation of residential property. One way not to do it is through the mansion tax proposals, so unwisely postulated by Dr Cable before he had begun to work out how to do it, and foolishly picked up by Mr Miliband. If Mr Miliband were to read the memoirs of the noble Lord, Lord Healey, he would see a warning on how not to introduce a wealth tax until you have worked out the details. Noble Lords will remember that Mr Healey tried to introduce a wealth tax in the 1970s. A lot of obstacles appeared and the proposal was referred to a Commons Select Committee, which said that the scheme could not work—and Mr Healey wisely abandoned it.

However, we all accept that although council tax was an excellent replacement for the disastrous poll tax, it has been hugely overtaken by the housing boom. To have eight bands, A to H, based on April 1991 house values, with top band H representing houses worth more than £320,000, is wholly inadequate when so many properties are making millions. There is an understandable and justifiable demand for those with much more expensive houses to pay a higher rate of tax of some form or other. I propose a completely new set of bands that could be called I to P, with the lower band, I, representing houses below a value of £500,000. The bands would then increase: from £500,000 to £1 million, from £1 million to £2 million, from £2 million to £5 million, from £5 million to £10 million, from £10 million to £15 million, from £15 million to £20 million, and over £20 million. One could have much higher rates of council tax on that basis. The key would be not to impose the new rates on all houses now because there would be, first, the gigantic problem of revaluation and, secondly, all the anachronisms of people who have lived for a long time in a house that is much more valuable than they would now be able to afford. There would be an element of retrospection in that. I suggest that the new bands, from the moment they were approved by Parliament, would apply to all subsequent domestic property acquisitions. They would be based on actual market prices, not arguable notional prices based on what district valuers think properties are worth. They find it difficult enough even to work out inheritance tax, let alone value every house. One would use the figures reported to the registrar, and people would know what they were in for when they bought a house. The system would not be retrospective; it would be workable and the sooner we introduce it, the better.

Draft National Policy Statement for National Networks

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to say a few words in the gap. I declare my interests as in the register.

Frankly, I thought this was a rather unimpressive document. I learnt the little bit I know about transport at the feet of the great Ernest Marples, who was arguably one of the greatest Ministers of Transport this country has ever had. I emphasise that I absolutely agree that we need a strategic road network, as that is the way to protect nationally designated landscapes. Having a proper strategic road network protects sensitive rural and urban areas from vehicles that would otherwise try to use them because there is nowhere else to go.

It is extraordinary that my county of Suffolk does not have a place in the strategy at all. Indeed, if the Minister opens her copy of the report at page 84, she will see that, in order to fit the map of England on to the page, the whole of the coastal area of Suffolk has been cut off. That is the most sensitive area of Suffolk. There can be no bigger indicator of Whitehall indifference to those of us who live in East Anglia than that.

The previous Government detrunked the A12 north of Ipswich and therefore, theoretically, it is not part of a strategic network. That was a great mistake because the A12 from the M25 to Lowestoft should be part of England’s strategic network. The proposal to construct the Sizewell C nuclear power station is particularly important in this regard and I wish to raise a very serious question on that with the Minister. The French company EDF—the designated builder—published an outline of a short new road that would slash through the attractive Suffolk village of Farnham, and proposed a huge lorry park south of Wickham Market because the current road cannot take its lorries. These ideas are quite unacceptable to local people.

I should emphasise that I am the president of the Suffolk Preservation Society, as recorded in the register, which is why I care so much about Suffolk. Plans were drawn up for a four-village bypass in 1996—the four villages being Marlesford, where I live and farm, Little Glemham, Stratford St Andrew and Farnham. They were endorsed by the inspector after a full public inquiry. This bypass is urgently needed, quite apart from the needs of Sizewell C. It should be part of the upgrading of the A12 and be brought into the strategic road network.

EDF is now having pre-application discussions with officers of the Suffolk Coastal District Council, as it is entitled to do, but has said that the details of its plan are commercially confidential. That really is nonsense. The elected councillors are being kept in the dark with regard to what is being proposed. That is the antithesis of democracy and not what councils are about. Officers who work for councils work for councillors; they are not there to make decisions. It is councillors who matter. I must not speak for much longer as I am making my speech in the gap, but EDF must not be allowed to publish its formal application and claim that it has already consulted the planning authority and obtained agreement to what it proposes. I hope that the Minister will reassure me that the concerns of Suffolk will be taken fully into account and that the Government will put Suffolk back on the map.

Railways: East Anglia Network

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the chance to say a few words in the gap. When I was a schoolboy after the war, living in Suffolk, we had a wonderful stopping service. It was a direct line between Liverpool Street and Lowestoft. I would get out at Wickham Market and change to a little steam train that went to Framlingham. I would get out at Marlesford. Sometimes I was allowed to stand on the footplate, and I would be met by my mother with a pony and cart at Marlesford station.

My next real experience of rail was that for five years I was on the board of British Rail Anglia. It was the worst commercial experience I have ever had; it was so frustrating. The quality of the management was just not there—and the key is management. There has been talk about producing good franchises. When considering who you should give a franchise to, it is necessary to look at the management and the targets that they are prepared to set themselves. Let them be judged by those targets. Interview the management. We all know that if you are in the advertising world and you decide to hire an advertising agent, you do not just see the agency, you see the person who is going to handle the account, so insist on that. It is a matter of buying a good franchise by doing it properly, and that has not been done.

In the old days when you had the wonderful non-stop service from London to Ipswich and Norwich, you could guarantee an hour between London and Ipswich. Now, however, it is different. One of the things that I had as a non-executive on the board was a first-class free ticket to wherever I wanted to go, but I virtually never used it on my own line if a journey was time-sensitive. As has been said, reliability is crucial. Trains are about reliability. You cannot blame someone else when you are in a car, but you jolly well can when you are on a train. That is another factor which should be properly taken into account.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was absolutely right to say that something has to be done about Felixstowe. We should have a new target for the amount of freight that is carried; I think that it is only about 20% at present.

[Lord Berkeley]

I think it is about 30% now. It is one of the best in the country.

[Lord Marlesford]

Well, it wants to have a new long-term target, maybe 50%, and in my view let us forget about HS2.

I shall end on a positive note because I am allowed only two or three minutes in which to speak. At least the difficult communications that we have to East Anglia have kept Norfolk and Suffolk the very beautiful counties that they are, and I proudly declare an interest as president of Suffolk Preservation Society.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 30th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I put my name to these amendments for very much the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Clause 8 is really not necessary. I declare an interest as president of the Suffolk Preservation Society. I have some experience in this area, because I did 12 years on the Countryside Commission, under the distinguished chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Barber of Tewkesbury, and was lucky enough to get to know the national parks very well during that time. In eight of those years, I was also on the Rural Development Commission under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Vinson. One saw then the importance and possibility of combining the conservation and protection of our finest countryside with economic development, which the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, so rightly pointed out.

I have always regarded the planning system and, with it, the creation of the national parks, as one of the two great venerable icons of the Attlee Government—the other, of course, being the National Health Service. Over the years, it has worked extremely well. I have seen at close quarters how it works. Of course, it is necessary to have new technologies, and indeed they are to be welcomed. Indeed, the broadband technologies, which make new forms of economic enterprise possible in remote areas is one of the least intrusive.

There has been a lot of talk about undergrounding, and I have a bit of experience of that, too. I am very keen on undergrounding. For some years, I was a non-executive director of the Eastern Electricity Board, both before it was privatised and for a while afterwards, when it was taken over by Hanson. I persuaded my co-directors to start a scheme for undergrounding wires in designated areas, which worked extremely well. It is not wildly expensive. Of course, the 440 kilovolt pylons are hugely expensive to underground, but the network of wirescaping, which can so badly damage a landscape, is remarkably inexpensive to underground. We did it in some 30 designated conservation areas on the heritage coast. The first one was in my own village, and I was attacked by Paul Foot in Private Eye, on the grounds that I lived in the village, because I had banged on about it for about five years before they did it. But it is a perfectly good scheme to do things such as undergrounding. All this can be done very well under the existing arrangements. Broadband can and will come, and it is crucial that it should do so. However, absolutely no reason that I have heard of or read about justifies the necessity for introducing Clause 8 to give special treatment to broadband.

I do not believe that we should for one instant consider damaging the unique quality and status of these most precious landscapes by weakening control over them. I believe it is unlikely that this Government would seek to do so, but if they were to do so, it is most unlikely that your Lordships’ House would agree to it.

[Lord Judd]

The noble Lord referred to world heritage. I am sure he will be aware that the Lake District, where I live, is seeking world heritage site status. This will have immense significance for the British economy and for attracting visitors and tourists. Will this process be helped or hindered by these unnecessary provisions in the Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I hope that the Lake District gets that status. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, pointed out that a crucial part of the prosperity of these remote areas is their attraction for tourists. That applies to rural areas generally. As regards protecting the countryside, I could have declared another interest in that for five years I was chairman of CPRE, which tries to protect the countryside. Had we not had the planning laws of 1948 and 1949 and the national parks in place, England and Wales would not be the beautiful places that they are.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for missing the opening speech of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, which I much regret. I spend a good deal of my time in Dartmoor National Park. I live part of the time very near to it and am president of Dartmoor Search and Rescue.

Some years ago a survey was carried out to measure the economic activity within Dartmoor National Park. Before the results were published, I wondered whether the most prevalent aspect of economic activity would be agriculture or tourism. However, the House will be surprised to hear that the greatest proportion of Dartmoor National Park’s gross domestic product came from financial services. Therefore, I understand the importance of broadband. My previous comments on the Bill have supported the promotion of sustainable economic growth. I have openly stated that much of the planning system is sclerotic and immensely time-consuming and expensive.

I do not wish to repeat all the compelling points made by my noble friends Lady Parminter, Lord Renton, Lord Greaves and Lord Marlesford, as well as those made by the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Cameron, who are also my noble friends. We need to foster and promote economic activity everywhere, including within the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. However, we must not jeopardise these uniquely glorious landscapes that have the highest planning protection. Yes, the introduction of broadband is very important, but is this clause necessary to realise this aim? I hope that the Government will rethink the clause. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments.

Olympic Games: Security

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am obviously interested to hear what the noble and gallant Lord says about the initial expectations of the Ministry of Defence about troop requirements for the Olympic Games. I cannot comment on them because they would have been formed during the period of office of the previous Government. I can say that, during the time the coalition has been in power, and as we have got closer to the Games, the process of reviewing and scrutinising these arrangements has been very thorough and has allowed us to take the decision that we did yesterday.

As to the noble and gallant Lord’s question about training, I can be clear that, of course, those who will be deployed will receive the necessary training to do the task that is asked of them. They will be doing a similar kind of work—venue security—that is planned for those military that are already deployed to do it. They have not been called in to do something that is in addition to the kind of work already planned. That would include search of people and vehicles, and perimeter control. As to his question about command and control, the military will have their own command and control arrangements but will work very closely with G4S staff and LOCOG venue general managers. This will have to be a properly integrated operation. By that I mean that there will not be a separate arrangement for different contributors to the security of the sites.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, will the Government learn a wider lesson from this experience, which is the tremendous resource that the military offers of getting governments out of holes they are in from bad administration? The Minister may not remember, although I certainly do, the way in which the military had to sort out the shambles of the foot and mouth crisis, when there were piles of rotting corpses all over the country that were getting bigger and bigger. That was dealt with. However, will the Government realise that, particularly with the reduction of the number of people in the Armed Forces, there are very competent planners at senior level from all three forces who could be available to do a lot of these sorts of public sector jobs? To give one obvious example, the shambles of the UK Border Force could be taken over and dealt with very rapidly if they found a two or three star recently retired military officer to run it. I also think that there is a quite a lot in what the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, said. One of the things that government is very bad at doing, still, is writing waterproof contracts and monitoring them with the private sector. It is not so much the private sector being wicked; the public sector is extraordinarily bad. An obvious example of that is the failure to monitor the people who are given contracts to clean our roads or to make them do the job which they are paid for.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I certainly share my noble friend’s view of our Armed Forces. We are all in their debt for the way in which, from time to time, they step in and take control of situations. My noble friend is absolutely right to make that point and we keep that very much in mind. On this specific issue—notwithstanding the points that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, made a few moments ago—the involvement of the military at the Olympics has always been planned for. Some contingency was built in to our expectations and we are deploying that contingency in order to ensure that we meet our security needs. However, the manner in which we have carried out our decision on this has not been in any way short of what I would have expected it to be. As to the noble Lord’s point about contracts, I will take that on board. I remind him, again, that this contract is not with the Home Office; it is with LOCOG. None the less, he makes some powerful points and I will give them consideration.

Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Friday 27th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

1: Clause 2, page 1, line 22, at end insert—
“( ) placard, notice or structure designed or adapted (solely or mainly) for the purpose of displaying such placard or notice, whether or not any such structure is used solely for that purpose,”

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, this small amendment—the only amendment to this little Bill—is a tidying-up amendment to stop up a loophole, because it includes an extra category of stuff that will not be allowed to be left in Parliament Square. Your Lordships might wonder why we still have this Bill. The Government had their own Bill, which is now the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. My Bill takes a rather different approach because it has less activity for the police and more activity for the waste disposal authority of Westminster City Council under the guidance of the committee that the Bill proposes to set up.

It is quite interesting to take this opportunity to note the progress made so far under the Government’s Act. Two sections are relevant: Section 143, which defines what is not allowed to happen in or to be in Parliament Square, and Section 145, which describes the powers the police have to seize. My Bill does not have powers to seize because it has a gentler and, perhaps, more efficient way of doing things.

Section 143(6) of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act states:

“It is immaterial for the purposes of a prohibited activity … whether the tent or structure was first erected before or after the coming into force of this section”.

As your Lordships may have noticed, the police have already made considerable progress in clearing Parliament Square, but in front of the Palace of Westminster there are still a line of placards, a line of two or three sleeping tents and a couple of little huts. Incidentally, the little huts would be covered by my amendment. The reason for this is that a certain person has obtained an injunction from the High Court. The injunction is against the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and the Secretary of State for the Home Office. It states that they be restrained from enforcing the provisions of Part 3 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, in relation to the claimant’s campaign site currently located on the footway surrounding Parliament Square, until the termination of the claimant’s application for judicial review resolution of the claim if permission is granted or a further order of the court. Because of the normal sub judice rules, I am not going into any of the details, and the law will take its course, but I think that the very fact that there is an injunction perhaps indicates that removing something that has been there for so long is not always a straightforward matter. I hope that if my Bill goes down to the other place, it will be something of a longstop. We do not know whether it will make any further progress, but I beg to move.

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, I have spoken at previous stages in the debate on Parliament Square. I welcome the Bill and commend it because the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has provided for a committee with the ongoing responsibility, day in, day out, of looking after Parliament Square. I am especially pleased not so much with Clause 2(2), but with subsection (1), which enjoins the committee,

“to facilitate lawful, authorised demonstrations in the controlled area of Parliament Square”.

That is very important. It is as important as cleanliness et cetera. The idea that people should have access to Parliament Square for legitimate activity is also important. I agree with this amendment, which will tidy up, in more senses than one, the entire issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Marlesford for tabling his amendment and enabling a little more debate on this topic. I have been looking forward to it all week. The management of Parliament Square is an issue to which I know he and many of your Lordships attach considerable importance, although hitherto I have only commented in private. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway will understand that I shall confine myself to the merits of the amendment, and my noble friend Lord Elton raised other issues.

The Government are committed to restoring rights to non-violent protest. The Government are also committed to ensuring that everyone can enjoy our public spaces and do not consider it acceptable for people to camp on Parliament Square. I am sure that this view is shared by the majority of people in the United Kingdom. I therefore recognise my noble friend’s intentions in bringing forward this Bill and the Government share his desire to see the square cleared to enable its use by the wider public, including protesters.

On the specific amendment, I understand my noble friend’s concern in relation to the storage box structures on Parliament Square which are also used to display protest messages. I would, however, consider that these structures are already captured by Clause 2(2)(b) of the Bill as their function as storage boxes means that they should be captured in the definition of a,

“structure that is designed, or adapted, (solely or mainly) for the purpose of facilitating the sleeping or staying in a place for any period”.

However, my noble friend is a skilled and experienced parliamentarian. I fully understand why he has tabled his amendment and I cannot imagine him leaving a loophole in his original drafting. In relation to hand-held placards, the Government consider that these can be used to facilitate the right to effective peaceful protest and it would not be appropriate to ban their use on Parliament Square. However, if they are left overnight, then they would constitute litter that would be cleared away by the appropriate authority.

As my noble friend is aware, the Government brought forward provisions in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to enable tents and other structures, such as those outlined in the Bill, to be removed. The Government commenced these provisions on 19 December 2011 and we consider them a proportionate means by which to manage the disruption caused by the encampment. I am convinced that the Act is properly drafted. On 16 January 2012, the Metropolitan Police Service led an operation to enforce the provisions and remove the encampment in so far as possible given the High Court injunction that is in place in relation to one of the protester’s sites pending a judicial review hearing, as observed by my noble friend. He has by implication made it clear that he does not expect me to comment on the proceedings.

The Government agree with my noble friend that it is necessary for all enforcement agencies to work closely together if Parliament Square is going to be managed in a way that promotes its enjoyment and use by all. That is why we have worked with the Greater London Authority, Westminster City Council and the Metropolitan Police Service to ensure that effective enforcement protocols for the PRSR Act provisions are in place.

Once again, I thank my noble friend for moving his amendment and I hope that he is reassured by the provisions the Government already have in place through the PRSR Act.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have kindly spoken on this amendment. It sounds to me as though people are reasonably happy that the amendment should be included in the Bill.

Amendment 1 agreed.