Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Markham Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

I hope the Minister will look at the amendments in this group with these points in mind. I beg to move Amendment 42.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for introducing these amendments, which are also in my name. As in previous groups, he set out some of our concerns, particularly where there are media interests involved—by media interests we are speaking very much about involvement with media rights and, as we discussed earlier, inside information and conflicts.

Amendment 49 is all about the transparency of the process. The real value of an expert panel is that there are a lot of complicated issues. If anything, the last three days have shown us that this is a highly complex area and that we would be asking the expert panel to opine on a large range of issues. The strength of that panel will be its breadth.

One area of particular concern to me is the example I gave before about clubs which are in what you might call the start-up phase—for example, Brighton, as they were a few years ago, when they invested heavily in players as part of a well-reasoned plan to get promoted. I am concerned that a regulator, with its sustainability hat on, might say that that is not very sustainable.

However, I would expect and hope that the expert panel had a range of views. While some may be more of the button-down accountant-type who would have concerns about that, I would hope that others would be of a more entrepreneurial nature and would understand what these aspiring clubs were trying to do, and so give that balanced view. To me, that is exactly what a good expert panel should be doing. On transparency, being able to hear those minority views and take them into consideration overall is an important dimension to all of this.

We have plenty of good examples of this. In the Monetary Policy Committee you have so-called hawks and doves, and a lot of information is often gained by not just the majority view in the vote but the dissenting voices. You see similar things in Supreme Court rulings, where you have minority opinions. It is about trying to bring that sort of richness to this, so that we have a range of expert views, which we will all benefit from. That was very much the thinking behind Amendment 49. I look forward to the Minister’s views.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I will make one or two comments in relation to this group of amendments. First, Amendment 42 seeks to set an upper limit. I strongly support that, whatever the number happens to be. Many years ago—not that many—I drafted the changes in legislation in relation to parliamentary boundaries for the Commons. Over the years, we had seen a steady drifting up, with ever-more Members of Parliament, as the Boundary Commission decided to duck a decision here or a decision there. Ultimately, we set a figure for the total number of Members of Parliament. I will not go into detail as to whether I think the figure is right now, but I had watched it drift ever upwards.

The debate about this House has included very heavily the question of the numbers that there should be in it. I am a strong believer that there should be a limit, and that the limit should be very substantially below where it is now. The numbers have just drifted up and up, because some people have appointed too many people into this House. I am therefore in favour of having a limit on the panel, because I can see the risks of not having one. I do not mind whether it is 20, or whatever it may happen to be, but I am in favour of some upper limit on any public panel in these circumstances.

I am not going to comment on the next two amendments, on the basis that I have done so already in previous conversations, but I will refer to Amendment 49. I agree strongly with the principles outlined in it. We are talking about a public body here. We are saying that the football clubs, which are regulated and licensed, must be open to comment from their fans. If the football clubs must be open to comment and scrutiny from their fans then surely the regulator and the expert panels must also be open to that same public scrutiny. It is not acceptable for people who are on that sort of panel to hide behind an overall decision. It would therefore be important to go down this sort of route.

I made an intervention on the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. I do not think I misinterpreted what she said earlier—I apologise if I did, because she is not here at the moment. When I asked her about strong or weak chief executives, she expressed concern that the wrong chief executive might be in the position. If there is, and he is leading a weak panel, then people could hide behind it. I am strongly in favour of a public display of decision-making in that process.

I would not necessarily agree that the amendment has perfect wording. For example, in proposed new sub-paragraph (2)(d), whether or not you have “the reasons why” is another matter. However, one category that is not in here is the question of timescale, which has come up in other elements of our discussion. It must be right that, throughout the process of regulation, there should be timescales imposed. It is all too easy for people to drift on decisions, whatever they happen to be, and put them back and back.

We are talking here, as we have identified, about a very competitive industry, competing not only in the football world but in other worlds as well. To maintain the position of our competitive pre-eminence within that field, we need to ensure throughout that regulators abide by timescales. I therefore suggest that, on Report, not only in this amendment but elsewhere, there should be timescales involved, as well as the other classifications that are identified.

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One reason is that, in this amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, so ably opened, in terms of the Secretary of State being able to say, “Well, here’s some more money”, it is not the taxpayer but the football clubs that will pay this, as I identified earlier. The other element associated with these costs, to which there has been no reference up until now other than in briefings meetings, is the cost of set-up. Not only are we talking about an annual charge, but the Government’s abridged version of the impact assessment says that these levies are then expected to recover these costs. In other words, not only do we have an individual figure for each club per annum, including the small clubs about which I am most concerned, but there are also costs being incurred now, in substantial ways, which will have to be recovered at a later stage. I will continue to press until I get an answer on the costs for the small clubs.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Jackson for his Amendment 50, which looks to protect the taxpayer. I particularly support my noble friend Lord Hayward’s as ever forensic analysis, which really focused on the burden to the smaller clubs. These things easily get out of control and, as my noble friend mentioned, £140 million in anyone’s book is a lot of money, and that is just the central case—it is not even the highest example.

I will speak to my two amendments in this group: Amendments 171 and 253. Amendment 171

“restricts discretionary licence conditions to include only internal financial controls”.

Interestingly, this was the drafting of the original Bill that was brought before the other place before the general election. We have heard many times in the Chamber how this Bill is substantially the same as the original one. However, this time round there is a key change in the wording: instead of “internal financial controls”, the word “financial” has been taken out, so now it is just “internal controls”. I think we would all agree that there is a world of difference between looking at the financial management of a club, which is something that we would understand, particularly with regard to the sustainability argument, and why that might be in the remit. Removing “financial” from that, all of a sudden, so you are just looking at the internal controls of a club, is obviously a massive moving of the goalposts, if I may say so.

In trying to understand the thinking behind it, I looked at the Explanatory Notes. In those, it mentions that, broadly speaking,

“Internal controls refer to the system of policies and processes established by the management of a club that allow it to continue operating in an effective, orderly and efficient manner”.


That may seem innocuous, but it goes once more to the whole issue of mission creep. The Bill does not define internal controls—and remember that we are talking about 116 clubs, and we are saying that a regulator is suddenly going to have powers to explore those internal controls.

Again, the Explanatory Notes say that those internal controls are looking to make sure that the club is being run

“in an effective, orderly and efficient”

way, and that they help a club to operate in such a way. First, is that the role of a regulator, to get involved in the internal controls of every club, as to whether it is running efficiently? Suddenly, we seem to have appointed a management consultant on steroids, who will be looking into the cost of each club and opining on it. Surely that is not the sort of thing we want to do for 116 clubs.

Then, what does that bring in? Why not the IT department of a club? I think we would all agree that digital information technology comes into the definition of the effective, orderly and efficient operation of a club. So, are we now asking the regulator to do that? Maybe we should be hiring Capgemini, IBM and whoever else to start to get into it.

Suddenly, we start to see this mission creep. Then, we realise that the other parts we are trying to bring in, on having protection for clubs and the taxpayer in Amendments 50 and 253, become all the more important. Not only have we now got the concern that this regulator will be looking into every nook and cranny of the internal controls of a club, but who will be footing the bill for all of this? There is a blank cheque that either the taxpayer or the clubs are going to have to foot. I think we would all agree that we probably do not want either of them to do it, but as this is set up here and now, the regulator has absolutely been given the remit to do that.

In my Amendment 253, I am trying to make sure that at least this does not fall on the taxpayer; I think we would all agree that we do not want that. I must admit that I do not feel particularly comfortable about that, because I do not want it falling on the small clubs—or any of the clubs for that matter—but I am absolutely sure that I definitely do not want the taxpayer to be funding a regulator to look into the internal controls of 116 clubs and whether they are effective. However, I do not think that we want the clubs to have to do that either.

It is a long-established principle that the regulator is paid. I am familiar from my old media days with Ofcom being funded by the broadcasters, and that has to be appropriate, because we do not want the taxpayer to do it. However, what sort of control do the clubs have over this? All of a sudden, the regulator says that it is going in and to look at every single nook and cranny of their internal control to opine on whether they are efficient and effective—and the really good news is that they are going to pay for all of it as well. Is that really what we want from a regulator? I do not think it is. We started off with a very small mission and, suddenly, the regulator is looking into the internal controls of 116 clubs. I really do not believe that this is what we want.

That is why, in my amendments, I am first trying to return the regulator back to internal financial controls, which we can see a role for. Secondly, I am making sure that this does not fall on the taxpayer. However, if this falls on the clubs, we need to think about how we can give them some sort of control to avoid them having to pay a blank cheque for all of this.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

Most of what the noble Lord said would be done during an audit. All of these companies will have audit, and almost everything he mentioned will be conducted by the auditors. Plainly, it would be completely duplicatory for that to be done twice over. The issue is whether the regulator would have access to the audit. I agree with the noble Lord about the need to avoid cost, and wherever the cost falls, audits—as I am sure he knows—are ever more expensive, because the obligations on auditors are increasing the whole time. There is a lot at stake here.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

This is another example of the benefit of getting different brains on the committee. I absolutely hope that that would be the case, but it is probably a question for the Minister to answer. It is definitely logical.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will make some brief comments. As I read the Bill, the Secretary of State providing some finance might be necessary, particularly in starting up. One of the things we do not want is an underresourced regulator blundering around making mistakes. A bad regulator is the worst outcome you can have, and that is usually because it lacks resources. When the Minister responds, can she give us some idea about when the power to give extra money would be used? This being done badly would be the worst result.

When the noble Lord, Lord Markham, talked about regulation, I am afraid I kept thinking about Fulham and Al Fayed. Are your internal control structures right? Are you doing something wrong? The damage that could be done by bad organisation immediately catches in the back of my throat. The regulation will not be straightforwardly financial; it is also about reporting structures, the care of your workforce, et cetera. Surely that should be covered by the Bill. These are questions about where you draw the line. If we have a regulator, does it regulate the whole thing? I think it has to; it cannot be just financial. If these are socially important structures—this is what we keep coming back to—we have to look at this question.

The noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has a point about the costs involved. I hope that we will get an answer when the Minister responds—at least a rough ballpark figure—because it will clarify what we will do. Those of us who approved the idea of a regulator think that it has to be properly resourced and that it has to cover the whole thing. I hope that the Minister can give us a little more guidance about what will happen and what the Government’s thinking is at this point, because they should have an answer by now.

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[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

I beg the noble Baroness’s pardon for not attributing the £10 million figure to her. The fact is that we know that is ludicrous, because the cost of other regulators is way more than that.

I will make some headway. What will it cost overall? We do not know what the overall cost will be or what it will cost individual clubs. To talk a little bit more about that, imagine you are a local entrepreneur. There is a club in a little bit of trouble. They come to you and say, “You always wanted to own a football club. Why don’t you take over our club and then you can have one of those back-to-back league promotion successes that you’ve dreamed about and you’ll be famous in your community?”. You say, “Well, I’ve got a few bob. I don’t know how much, but yeah, okay, I’ll consider it”. It is one of those clubs that a noble Lord opposite talked about on Monday. I think the numbers cited were a turnover of £2 million and seven employees. You are invited to take over this club and bung in some of your money. You may not have a lot, but you may think you have enough. Then you say, “What’s going to happen?” My concern is that when you are told there is going to be a regulator that will tell you who to have on your board and all that, you will say, “Forget about that; as an entrepreneur, I don’t play that particular game”. But let us say you swallow that. Then you say, “How much is this regulator going to cost me?” The answer: “Dunno mate”. You ask, “Well, what could it be?” The answer: “Dunno”. So you turn your back and go off to sponsor the local cricket club or something like that. It does not work if you are not absolutely clear about what the cost will be.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I ask the noble Lord this given his experience of consulting in a lot of entrepreneurial and start-up situations. I know that he has done lots of these types of moves. Clearly, when you invest in a start-up business or a club you will have business plans. They might be good or bad business plans, but they are normally based on an investment and an expansion. In this case, given that the regulator can say no to those business plans and that investment once it gets into it, I assume your investment proposition would suddenly be up a creek. I would like to hear the noble Lord’s opinion on what that will do to the investment proposition.

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Markham, makes a very good point. If some local worthies approach you and ask, “Will you invest in this club?” and you say, “Well, I’ve got to figure out what it’s going to cost me”, and they then say, “You’ve also got to figure out whether your plans are going to be acceptable to the regulator”, again, you would turn your back. Entrepreneurialism is the heartbeat of the economy, as several noble Lords have said in this debate over the past few days. This regulator proposal just turns entrepreneurs away from wanting to invest.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

It would be helpful if the noble Lord could give examples of entrepreneurs wishing to invest in football who he has spoken to. I have spoken to a lot of entrepreneurs, including people who have invested smaller amounts in smaller clubs and larger amounts in Premier League clubs. They know exactly what they are anticipating and what they are going into. Of course, as part of their business plan, they are factoring that in. There is a figure, there is a concept, and investment has not gone down in the past 18 months. Indeed, further major investment in major clubs in English leagues is likely to happen soon. What is going wrong if they are all running away? Can he give a single example?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I posed the question, and I can give an example of that. I have mentioned to noble Lords before that I have experience of the Brighton situation and know the board and the set-up there quite well. Brighton is a perfect example, and it is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is not in his place, because he is very familiar with it. It was a club without a stadium or good training facilities. An owner, Tony Bloom, came in and invested a lot of money in it, with a plan predicated on investing in players and doing a lot of analysis to get the best ones from around the world. It was absolutely a start-up scenario where he was heavily investing, and part of that was the concept of being able to yo-yo in terms of having parachute payments. He cited to me the example of West Bromwich Albion, which at that time had been promoted and relegated and promoted and relegated, but each time, because they had the parachute payment, they were able to become more sustainable.

Suddenly you get a situation whereby someone is thinking, “I want to do another Brighton like Tony Bloom, but I do not know what my cost base will be. I do not know whether the regulator is going to stop me going on with my plans because it thinks I am unsustainable or make me deposit a large sum of money as a financial buffer. I do not know whether my parachute payments, which are part of my plan, are then going to be taken away. Suddenly I’ve got a hell of a lot more risk involved”. I can only believe that that is going to dampen enthusiasm to invest in the first place. That is a very real example.

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. I apologise to the Committee for going over my allotted time, but I hope that it will appreciate that a great deal of that time was taken up not by me but by entirely welcome interruptions by other speakers.

In the interests of trying to move this on fast, I will stop talking about this issue of “What is it going to cost me?”, important though it is to have far more understanding of and far more limitations on the regulator’s ability to charge, and will move on to that of “What I will get?”. As soon as it becomes possible for a club to get money out of this arrangement, suddenly you have discussions about parachute payments and backstops; you have supplicants; you have lobby, lobby, lobby. It is called crony capitalism, state capture, rent-seeking. These are the dangers that you get when you involve the Government, and although we are calling it a regulator, this is a governmental action. It is essential that we limit the amount of money that that regulator has to play God with football in this country.

With those problems, it goes beyond just stopping the regulator spending beyond the levy amounts, as I understand Amendment 253 to say. We need to ensure that the levy amounts in the first place are suitably parsimonious and as little burdensome as possible to the clubs. I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Addington, had to say, but let us not be too free with other people’s money. I am sure it is not popular in all parts of this House to quote the great Baroness Thatcher, but she had the great remark, “You can spend other people’s money until pretty soon there isn’t any more”. Let us think about the impact.