Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, this order is plainly necessary, and I thank my noble friend for explaining it so fully and clearly. As she said, it would be entirely inappropriate to make changes that would oblige the political parties of Northern Ireland to divulge to the public at large full details of their donations and loans when the state of politics in the Province is so unstable and the security situation so fraught. In today’s volatile circumstances, those Northern Ireland parties that feel strongly that the identities of their donors and lenders should continue to be protected must remain free to protect them—certainly for the time being. I know that that remains the view of the Ulster Unionist Party, which is the party to which I have always felt closest during the 45 years in which I have taken a keen interest in Ulster’s politics. This interest was sharpened in the late 1970s when I worked as an adviser to Airey Neave.

At the same time, unionist principle demands that as soon as possible the same general arrangements for the disclosure of donations and loans should apply throughout all parts of our country. That, rightly, is the Government’s aim, as it was the aim of their predecessors. Understandably, the independent and highly regarded Electoral Commission, to which my noble friend rightly paid tribute, is pressing for that aim to be accomplished as soon as possible. In 2010, a full consultation exercise took place in the Province. Research carried out by the commission last year suggested that only 7% of the public there favour the retention of confidentiality, with nearly two-thirds supporting disclosure and over 30% declaring themselves happy with either. Nevertheless, I am sure that the Government are right to hasten carefully and slowly in this matter. As in so many other areas, decisive action needs to follow the emergence of widespread consensus among the local parties in accordance with the principles of the Belfast agreement. It does not exist at the moment.

Let us hope that, proceeding with patience and understanding, our Government are able to move forward on the basis of consensus when this order expires at the end of September next year. In the mean time, those Northern Ireland parties that wish to publish information about their donations and loans, and have the agreement of those involved, are of course at perfect liberty to do so. Such steps may well help hasten the overall pace of change.

Much controversy naturally attaches to the question of retrospective disclosure when this order is replaced by new legislation in due course. The Electoral Commission, the advice of which is valued so highly, is all for it, while retaining the confidentiality of information that would enable individual donors and lenders in years gone by to be identified. For my part, I am deeply sceptical about the expediency of any retrospective disclosure. Would it not be best to draw a line under earlier years and apply new rules of transparency and disclosure from the point at which they are introduced?

I support the order wholeheartedly. Along with my noble friend Lord Bew, who cannot be here this afternoon, I look forward eagerly to the forthcoming legislation that will replace it, providing for fuller transparency in future.

[Lord Lyell]

My Lords, I support the forthright comments of my noble friend Lord Lexden. He mentioned a period of 45 years. My period of nearly five and a half years in Northern Ireland was luckily not connected too much with financial provisions in politics; I got into quite enough trouble with agricultural financial provisions.

I seem to remember taking part in this debate the last time we discussed this, probably in 2010. I take on board everything that has been said by my noble friend Lord Lexden about the need to continue being discreet, secret or reasonable about donations and where the money comes from. I hope nothing much has changed gravely in that time.

Might the Minister be kind enough to explain the significance of the date of 30 September 2014? It seems odd. Is it the end of what is expected to be the parliamentary Recess? Is the Assembly going to be dancing with delight? Are we to be in here? I am curious as to why that particular date was chosen— “19 months”, as it is spelled out.

The Minister could write to me later on the second line of the Explanatory Note. It starts with, “Special provisions”, et cetera, and then refers to,

“loans and donations made to political parties and,”—

I love this phrase—

“other regulated recipients (such as members of political parties and holders of elective office)”.

I am curious. Has anything changed since this last was defined, or is anything new? Would I be a recipient as a past officeholder in Northern Ireland? Would I be regulated as a recipient? Fortunately, I would keep my oar out of Northern Ireland political donations. I would be grateful for guidance from my noble friend as to what has changed, particularly since we last discussed this. Again, can she clarify to me the significance of 30 September 2014? I hope that I shall still be around, active and not brain dead, in your Lordships’ House. When we come to discuss this again, I hope to be able to congratulate the Minister, my noble friend Lord Lexden and all those who come to speak. I am grateful for the Minister’s clear exposition this afternoon.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My noble friend mutters that it was not a tax. However, I am saying that it could be a tax. There is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not decide, as a matter of good policy, that ownership of dogs, which can be a confounded nuisance in cities and the countryside, should be subject to tax. That is a perfectly sensible proposition and there is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not decide that it is one way of adding to its tax take and finances. I am totally opposed to the amendment that my noble friend is pursuing. He is making a good case by trying to undermine the basic purpose of the Bill, while I want the Bill to go further than it does.

[Lord Lyell]

My noble friend made a powerful speech; indeed, I am half way to agreeing with him. However, our noble friend the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury referred 36 times to this extraordinary Scottish dance, the close connection; perhaps my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench can tell us whether it is a Canadian barn dance, a military two-step or a three-step. That close connection refers particularly to individual payers of income tax. In describing this close connection, my noble friend admitted more than 30 times that the individual payers who are classified as Scottish taxpayers would be nothing to do with this Bill. They could easily be English or other UK taxpayers. I hope my noble friend will take that on board. You can look at new taxes but, for goodness’ sake, take care over who will be responsible. If they are not Scottish taxpayers or Scottish voters, we will be in ever deeper water.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Forsyth indicated that this amendment was a hook on which to hang a wider debate. I listened to the debate on Clause 28, to which my noble friend Lord Sassoon responded and in which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made a number of points. He raised the responsibilities and privileges of the respective Houses of Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has given a very clear answer on that. It is also important to point out that our role is in relation to a constitutional question: should the Scottish Parliament have responsibility for a particular tax, or should it remain reserved? It is not about how a tax should be structured, who should have to pay it and exemptions to it. That would all have to be set out in primary legislation by the Scottish Parliament, should a tax be devolved.

I am sure it is accepted on all sides of the House that the question of what should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament is an important constitutional issue. I rather think that if it had been suggested that the House of Lords should not express a view on a power such as that contained in Clause 28, I might be in greater difficulty in trying to respond to an amendment suggesting that it should. However, I hear what my noble friend says about the tax in relation to Clause 28. I do not want to engage in a rerun of the debate that we had when my noble friend Lord Sassoon was responding, or indeed anticipate a debate which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has indicated he intends to run when we come to Report. I am sure that there will be ample opportunity to do so.

I say to my noble friend Lord Forsyth that I think there is a genuine misunderstanding between us with regard to what the Calman commission meant when it referred to a specific tax. I think there are three other members of the Calman commission in the Chamber at the moment and I am sure that, if I have this wrong, they will jump up. The Calman commission identified some specific taxes such as an aggregates levy, which has been referred to, air passenger duty, landfill tax and stamp duty land tax. These were specified and specific recommendations were made in respect of them. Paragraphs 3.170 and 3.171 of the Calman commission report give a general background as to why we thought there should be a power to devolve other specific taxes in the future. By that, it was not intended that we should nominate in the commission’s report, or indeed in a Bill, what these specific taxes might be; rather, it concerned the concept of a specific tax as opposed to devolving a general power of taxation to the Scottish Parliament. I think there is perhaps a genuine misunderstanding on what the recommendation intended. I may have a better understanding of what that intention was, having been party to it.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I support what has been said so far. The present situation, as is increasingly becoming clear, is untenable. It goes against the principle that I have been arguing all the way along. I am in agreement with the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Steel of Aikwood. I believe that the only sensible way for the Scottish MSPs to be accountable is for them to be able to raise revenue as well as spend it. We are prohibiting that accountability and to me that is a very serious mistake which needs to be corrected at a later stage of the Bill. I think it is untenable for the future and unless we nip this in the bud now, it will be of increasing concern and will lead to a distortion of some of the benefits of devolution. It will become a real Achilles’ heel for people. Every time there is a change of allowances in one country that is different from another, we will have these consequences. Now that we know exactly what will happen, we have a real problem ahead of us.

[Lord Lyell]

Perhaps I may put a gloss on what my noble friend has said about these taxes. He refers to accountability. I make the point that in Clause 30 of the Bill, let alone anywhere else, there is no accountability to English, non-Scottish voters, who will be classified by the Bill as Scottish taxpayers. Where is the accountability? It is not there.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Duke of Montrose]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Curry, has talked about fishing in Scotland, and my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie talked about the Crown Estate Commission being set up before the Act of Union. There are some areas of the foreshore of Scotland and some fishing areas that do not belong to the Crown Estate because of historical precedent.

[Lord Lyell]

I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Selkirk for his amendment and strongly support it. I had the honour to be the apprentice of the Earl of Mansfield, who was not just Crown Estate commissioner for Scotland but first commissioner for the United Kingdom, which shows that Scotland is often best throughout the United Kingdom. I hope that what my noble friend has said in the course of this discussion will be taken on board and that my noble and learned friend will be able to accept this very wise piece of advice.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been an interesting and useful curtain-raiser to our debates today and important points have been made. I do not intend to go down the history-lesson route but I will deal with the point made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. It is an opportunity to explain why different terminology and a different process of appointment have been used. Quite clearly, there is genuine need for clarification of that matter and I hope I will be able to do that.

I will first take the issue of the qualification of the person who will be appointed as the Scottish Crown Estate commissioner. I thank my noble friend Lord Selkirk for his amendment. When I was Member of Parliament for Orkney and Shetland, I had many dealings with the Crown Estate on issues of udal law, not least as to whether certain marina berths should have charges levied on them by the Crown Estate, or whether slipways passed over land that belonged to the Crown Estate or to the udal landowner. Some I won, some I did not. However, it indicates the breadth of the work the Crown Estate undertakes, including fish farming and marinas. Inshore and offshore renewable developments are, of course, becoming increasingly important within the area covered by the Crown Estate.

The position of the Crown Estate commissioner requires experience of operating at a senior board level as well as knowledge of one or more of the business sectors and activities in which the Crown Estate operates. These points were very forcibly made by my noble friend Lord Sanderson of Bowden and by the noble Lord, Lord Curry, who obviously speaks from his own experience of having been a Crown Estate commissioner.

The fact that my noble friend’s amendment relates specifically to land management and law would put an unnecessary restriction on who could be appointed. Of course, as we have already heard in this debate, there are areas of the Crown Estate’s business other than property or law with which it may well be an advantage for an appointee to have familiarity. The Bill provides for the person who should be appointed as a Scottish Crown Estate commissioner to have knowledge of Scotland and conditions there, but that person might in addition have a much broader range of experience and expertise that he or she can bring to the board. There might also already be commissioners on the board with expertise and experience in the areas specified by the amendment.

On the second leg of my noble friend’s amendment—the experience of the functions of the Crown Estate—I think it is fair to say, and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Curry, will correct me if I am wrong, that few if any Crown Estate commissioners when appointed had direct experience of the functions of the Crown Estate under the 1961 Act. The right person for the job will need to have knowledge of Scotland and other relevant skills and experience. I hope the Committee will agree with me that it is important to achieve a balance of appropriate expertise on the Crown Estate board without placing undue restrictions or stipulations that could well rule out people who might otherwise be suitable candidates. I certainly think that the spirit of my noble friend’s amendment is in seeking to ensure that those bits of experience were brought to bear, but I hope he recognises that it will be impossible through the appointments process to have regard to other fields of experience as well if we put on restrictions.

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[Lord Lyell]

My Lords—

[Lord Boyd of Duncansby]

Perhaps I could first respond to the noble Lord’s intervention. I have to say with the greatest respect that I do not accept the proposition he is putting. In the first place, the number of cross-border journeys that are taken in relation to the entire number of journeys made in the UK is minuscule. Typically, people are caught drink driving over very short distances because they are driving home either from the pub or after having gone out for a meal. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, is not in his place, but let us say he goes from Ettrick over the border to catch his train, having enjoyed a good meal. Before he catches his train, he gets caught because over the border there is a different limit.

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[Lord Boyd of Duncansby]

The Highway Code is quite explicit: you should be aware of the amount you have drunk the night before. I had people around for a meal recently. They were not driving, but when I offered them another drink, they said that they could not take it because they would be driving the following morning. That is sufficient for me. With respect, I get the impression that people are more and more aware of both the drink-driving limits nationally and the necessity of ensuring that they do not drink in the evening if they are going to be driving the next day.

[Lord Lyell]

The noble and learned Lord is making one point. We have heard a great deal about the limits and the penalties. My noble friend Lord Caithness was driving in Europe and went through three countries. In many countries across the Channel, the limit may be 50 milligrams or thereabouts, but often the penalty is either what I would call a light rap over the knuckles or three months. But if the level is 80 or 100 milligrams, which is what we have, quite often it will be one year or even more. Ever since, I think, 1967, the level has been 80 milligrams and 12 months. If we are going to have lower limits as there are in some Scandinavian countries—in Finland, but not Sweden or Norway so far as I am aware, it is zero; I do not know what the penalties are, whether they fluctuate or vary—would my noble and learned friend the Minister put that into the frame when he comes to respond to this?

[Lord Sewel]

I do not think the real issue in respect of penalties is about proportionality but to do with the type of case we have heard about from the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and my noble friend Lord Maxton, of the person living one side of the border who finds himself on the other side and commits what is an offence on that side but not on the other side. The imposition of the penalty then affects him where he is resident—he would lose his licence for the whole of the United Kingdom although he has committed no crime in England. That sort of situation will not enjoy public confidence.

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[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

They were my preliminary remarks.

[Lord Lyell]

Before the noble Lord moves on, would he suggest that the First Minister might take over the Scottish rugby team as coach?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Well, he tried to get on television to talk about rugby, purporting to be an expert on it, and blamed the BBC for withdrawing his invitation. In fact, the BBC did not invite him; he invited himself and then the BBC said, “We don’t have a place for you, we’re afraid, because we’ve got people who actually know about rugby to talk about it”. It would be better to have someone who knows about rugby to manage the Scotland rugby team, but I have no doubt that the First Minister would think that he could do it.

I return to the amendment. When I was a Minister in the Department for International Development, I travelled the world, inevitably. It was part of my responsibility to go to the poorer countries of the world to see the problems and what we could do about them.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As I understand it, the Falklands are a dependent territory of the United Kingdom and the South Sandwich Islands and South Georgia are dependencies of the Falklands. I presume that they are not included because of that. That is important given recent statements in Argentina and the importance of those two island groups as well as the Falklands.

[Lord Lyell]

Perhaps I may make my first intervention—I am sure that the Minister will be delighted. I have an interest very similar to that of my noble friend the Duke of Montrose in that in the first week, even before events gravitated to the Falkland Islands, great events took place on the island of South Georgia. In the communications with the Royal Marines and the forces there, there was considerable discussion about the Lyell Glacier, named, definitely, after my great-great-great uncle, one of the fathers of modern geology. As far as I am aware, there is no mineral wealth under the Lyell Glacier or anything that I or anybody in Scotland would be able to claim, but the charts and accounts will give us some assistance. It would be very helpful if my noble friend Minister could give us clarification as to what is classified as “Antarctica” for the purposes of the Bill.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, for the purposes of the Antarctic Act 1994, which was to implement our international obligations, “Antarctica” means,

“the continent of Antarctica (including all its ice-shelves) … all islands south of 60° South latitude (including all their ice-shelves)”—

so I do remember something from 18 years ago—

“all areas of continental shelf which are adjacent to that continent or those islands and which are south of 60° South latitude, and … all sea and airspace south of 60° South latitude”.

The important point is that these are the areas to which the international obligations, many of which are of an environmental nature, apply. As I have indicated, that became apparent in considering the draft Antarctic Bill.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sewel]

I think that it would depend on what the tax was. If it was a tax on left-handed people, I would happily vote against it. When it comes to taxation, nothing is ever simple—as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, knows. It is important to catch the right people and avoid creating the potential for someone finishing up being a territorial taxpayer in two jurisdictions. I am not quite sure that the Bill has that bit right. I remember long and interesting discussions on lorry drivers sleeping in their cabs at night north or south of Gretna and the great importance that that would have on whether they were a taxpayer. How anybody knew whether they were going to sleep north or south of Gretna, I never dared try to find out.

[Lord Lyell]

I have all that debate—it is in vol. 593 —here with me. After I have been able to speak in this debate—perhaps in the morning—the noble Lord might be able to read that in Hansard. However, he is absolutely right. I shall never forget all the efforts that he made—it is all here. Alas, I was before him getting vol. 593.

[Lord Sewel]

I thank the noble Lord very much for that intervention.

Perhaps I may focus on one last thing. The really big difference is now that Scottish public expenditure will be financed by a combination of tax raised in Scotland and grant given to Scotland by the United Kingdom Parliament. Everything about Scottish income tax is defined and specified in the Bill, but the Bill is silent on grant, and that is still going to be the largest source of income for the Scottish Parliament. I think that that is a lopsided arrangement that really is unsustainable. We have got to the stage now where the grant element ought to be defined in legislation as well as the tax element.

I have spoken much too long. I think that this is a good Bill. It builds on the original Bill without fundamentally disturbing it, and I welcome it wholeheartedly. However, I think that we are going to spend quite a bit of time in Committee.

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[Lord Lyell]

My Lords, I start by thanking my noble and learned friend for his very clear exposition of this Bill at the outset. He and I, and maybe one or two others, are the only two who have attended virtually every second of this debate. Perhaps there is something in it, that the first Lord Lyell, my great-grandfather, was in fact the Member of Parliament for Orkney and Shetland for 15 years. So there is doubtless something in the breeding that makes hard men, and indeed my noble and learned friend might perhaps be one of those. I think he has done a super job, but he has not started yet: he has to wait until Committee stage comes, and then we shall have enormous fun.

I had a look at this Bill, and the first clause that crossed my mind, a clause which has been beautifully and eruditely covered in great detail by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, deals with airguns. I consulted the Tayside constabulary in Kirriemuir, and was told that in broad terms it was very pleased and quite happy with what was set out in the Bill. It seems that many of the airguns used in our neck of the woods are used legitimately in a very rural area. If indeed airguns are spreading and multiplying in urban areas in Scotland, no doubt my noble and learned friend will be able to take care of that, and we shall be able to make some arrangement.

I would turn fairly quickly towards the financial aspects of the Bill. I think that is is Clause 28 and further on. At the outset there have been notable contributions from the Liberal Democrat Benches. My noble friend Lord Forsyth was a marvellous opening bat, and we will come to him later. The Liberal Democrat Benches dealt very well and very effectively with a federal system. I think the noble Lord, Lord Steel, referred to what might be a federal tax system in the United Kingdom. I certainly call it a lopsided federal system. There might be a very good reason for this. It seems to me that what is set out in the tax-raising powers in the Bill, and indeed has been set out from the outset in all the aspects of devolution, in giving more powers to the Scottish Parliament. It is lopsided devolution, in that the tax measures that might be proposed for the Scottish Parliament will be in the nature of—if I take the Federal Republic of Germany—a state tax, whereas every other citizen of the United Kingdom, be they English, Welsh or from Northern Ireland, will be paying tax under a unitary system. Marvellous figures have been quoted: my noble friend Lord Caithness—was he Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster?—was a great financial expert in his previous expert incarnation, and he mentioned some percentages. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, will be able to explain the Australian system.

About 25 years ago I took a German course. It was very carefully explained to me that in Germany you pay tax to your Gemeinde, your local district. For every 100 euros of tax you pay, you know that 15 per cent—15 euros—are going to your Gemeinde. The 85 per cent is—or used to be—split, fifty-fifty, so that 42.5 per cent went to the federal government, 42.5 per cent went to your Land, your land government. That would be an exact replica of what we are discussing tonight, and what might come about in a federal system. It was another notable Member of your Lordships’ House from the Liberal Benches, a former member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, the noble Lord, Lord Sharman, who said to me, “If you want to look at systems of federal taxation that might be relevant to the Scotland Bill and what we are discussing now, first of all look at Germany, then look at Switzerland”. I have been visiting Switzerland for 35 or 40 years, perhaps not entirely for purposes of tax, mainly for skiing. Indeed the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is a noted denizen of Lenzeheide, and he represented your Lordships at skiing, so he will have some idea of the breakdown of how you pay your federal tax, your local tax, and the other taxes. The main crux of the discussions we have had is on tax—we have looked at landfill tax and all the other taxes—but mainly it is income tax.

I am so pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is here. I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser, is not with us because the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I are both Angus lads. I think that in the words of the Bill the closest connection he might have is with the lovely town of Arbroath. There is another Scot—also an Angus lad, from Arbroath—who 50 years ago put together a melody that is to be found in Rossini’s opera “William Tell”. It was originally called “William Wallace” but it was translated. The melody went via the Crimea to a pipe major in the Gordon Highlanders who prepared the wonderful melody that we marched to called “The Green Hills of Tyrol”. About 50 years ago, this marvellous denizen of Arbroath and Angus put the melody on a disc. It went platinum and trillions of copies were sold. He was called the “Scottish Soldier” and I look at many of his words as a Scottish taxpayer. In the words of Mr Andy Stewart, he wandered far away. Indeed, he did, and we have heard a great deal about that tonight from the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie.

However, there is something that worries me very much, as it does several of the expert groups. I declare a tiny and humble interest as a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. The institute briefed me in 1998 on aspects of who would pay the Scottish tax and who would be classified as a Scottish taxpayer. It seems that not much has changed since then. I purloined volume 593 of your Lordships’ Hansard report, which covers 6 October 1998. I made pretty well the same speech as I may be making in Committee about who would be a Scottish taxpayer. I received a wonderful, courteous briefing from the government spokesperson—the wonderful and very courteous noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, who explained the matter quite vividly. If your Lordships glance at paragraph (4) at the top of page 24 of the Bill, they will find an exact description of what was in Section 75 of the 1998 Act concerning one’s residence in Scotland as being on a boat or vessel. Earlier, we heard a dissertation about houseboats, rafts and other things, but what the noble Baroness was pointing out then—I think that it is a major flaw in the Bill—was a ferry. I recall the late Lord Dunleath asking what would be the tax status of people from Northern Ireland arriving on a ferry at Stranraer or Cairnryan. Certainly I was given to understand that even if a UK taxpayer from Northern Ireland never set foot on Scottish soil, because that ferry was tied up on Scottish land he would be deemed to be, and would be classified as, a Scottish taxpayer. That was set out by the noble Baroness in a very erudite fashion at col. 296 of volume 593, but even with her great humility and wonderful courtesy I do not think that she was entirely convinced. Indeed, the late Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish was in no way convinced. However, I hope that we can move on from that and that my noble and learned friend will be able to take care of it.

I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, who during that debate referred to lorry drivers. He had been the Minister taking care of it. In 1998, I referred to a firm in my own neck of the woods in Kirriemuir which employed 360 lorry drivers, 27 of whom had residences in Scotland, Therefore, straight off they were Scottish taxpayers. When you start looking at midnight at where you are with new Sections 80D, 80E and 80F under Clause 30 relating to Scottish taxpayers, you become just as confused as you were in 1998. You have to start totting up how many days you spend in Scotland or elsewhere. We have not moved on from there. Could my noble and learned friend take this on board, so that we can come back to it at greater length in Committee? I worry about how many other non-Scots are going to be classified as Scottish taxpayers. I am delighted to hear—I think that I heard that it has been confirmed—that the decision as to who will be a Scottish taxpayer, let alone a rate payer, will be taken not by the Scottish Parliament, though that may cause consternation and anger, but by Parliament here.

The transport firm found that up to 70 out of their 360 employees would easily be deemed Scottish taxpayers. They have homes in England and all other aspects of their lives, including paying tax, are in England too. But if they are to be classified as Scottish taxpayers, the din down in the other place will be something like the zoo at feeding time. I do not think that even with a three-line Whip these tax measures will be pushed on to so-called Scottish taxpayers who do not live in and have nothing to do with Scotland, apart from the fact that for a certain hour at a certain time of the year they will be north of the border. I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for the details that he has provided, and I look forward with great relish to Committee, whenever it may come. I hope that it may be this year, not in 2012.

Scottish Parliament (Constituencies and Regions) Order 2010

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie]

My Lords, I echo many of the comments made by noble Lords on this side of your Lordships’ House during the past half-hour or so. I was struck particularly, and not for the first time, by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, who spoke in the only way he knows how as far as Rutherglen is concerned: with passion. He has done so many times over many years. He was able to refer to flaws, as he and some of his former constituents see it, in the way in which the new boundaries have been drawn up. There will be no process to enable him to do that when the UK parliamentary constituencies are revised, as noble Lords have said. Although that is not the subject of this debate, it is important that those points are borne in mind.

If—heaven forbid—the Advocate-General and the coalition were still in power when the Scottish Parliament boundaries next came to be reviewed, is it his understanding that the system that we are being asked to approve this evening would still exist, or would the Scottish system as well convert to the system that is being foisted on us for the UK boundary changes, which are designed to reduce the number of seats in the House of Commons from 650 to 600? It is pertinent to ask whether we will have the opportunity to deal with a similar order the next time round.

A more specific point that I wish to raise with the Advocate-General stems directly from the Explanatory Memorandum to the order—he referred to it to some extent in his opening remarks. Paragraph 8.3 states that,

“the Scotland Office consulted electoral administrators”,

on how the changes might be applied, particularly in respect of an extraordinary general election in the Scottish Parliament that may take place between now and 5 May, when the normal general election is scheduled, or if any by-election took place within that period. My noble friend Lord Foulkes commented on the anomaly whereby, in some cases, there would be a by-election for the Scottish Parliament and, in others, there would not. If an independent Member chose to stand down, how would it be dealt with? The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, who recently joined your Lordships’ House, has announced that he will not seek re-election for the Scottish Parliament next year. If he should decide—and there is no indication that he will do so—to resign within the next month, it would cause a by-election. Could the new boundaries be brought into play for by-elections? Paragraph 8.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states of the electoral administrators:

“As for by-elections, their view was that this was a localised risk that could be managed should the need occur”.

How on earth could a single by-election be run on new boundaries while the existing boundaries were still in place for everyone else? I am concerned that the electoral administrators can give that sort of advice. The memorandum states also:

“Administrators supported running an extraordinary general election after 1 December on the basis of new boundaries”.

I am pleased to see that that view has not been taken on board, because, as the Advocate-General has announced to us, the boundary changes would not come into effect if there were an extraordinary general election. But why does he believe that the electoral administrators gave that advice, which seems bizarre and would cause considerable confusion, if not chaos, in representation within the Scottish Parliament?

[Lord Lyell]

I have a question for my noble friend—I think that he is my noble and learned friend, although I am never quite sure about the old titles Lord Advocate, Advocate-General, and Solicitor-General. Certainly he is learned in the law. Would he briefly look at page 10 of the admirable document that we have in front of us? It has a coloured map—my sight is still reasonable—and I am fascinated by the little green sector marked “7”. I think it is classified, thank goodness, as applying to the Scottish Parliament. I was going to ask what we might be doing about boundary changes for what are known north of the border as Westminster elections, but which I call general elections.

I ask my noble and learned friend to glance straight above the figure 7 in the green sector—I am not necessarily colour blind, nor in any way religious so far as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is concerned—where he will find a sort of pencil of land jutting straight in, surrounding the lovely town of Forfar. I am delighted to see that Forfar is now classified as being in Angus North and Mearns. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Carnegy will be delighted to know that it is in north Angus. Above all, will my noble and learned friend have a look at the north sector of that particular appendage? I believe that it follows the river South Esk. Having had some valuable insight as to the boundaries for the Scottish Parliament elections, can he say how they follow existing boundaries for borough, council or local elections? I am curious about that.

Perhaps my noble and learned friend can advise me. Are these boundaries for the Scottish Parliament? Under present rules, Members of your Lordships' House can vote there. However, under what may be proposed for your Lordships' House in the future—possibly in my lifetime, fairly soon—we shall not be able to vote in what we call general elections. Therefore, it would certainly be in my interest to know the boundaries for the general elections for Westminster. Today's legislation is purely dealing with the Scottish Parliament, so I am grateful for that.

I am even more grateful that my noble and learned friend has pointed out in the Explanatory Memorandum, in paragraph 7.4, that the DVD-ROMs, such as they are,

“have been deposited with the Secretary of State for Scotland for safe keeping”.

I think that it is now known as Fort Wallace and we are very happy that at least he can retain them.

Various noble Lords who have spoken have expressed the view that the by-election issue is a localised risk. This has been beautifully aired this evening in your Lordships' House and I hope that my noble and learned friend will be able to give me some advice about that. If he cannot do that tonight, perhaps he can write to me.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I speak to underline the comments made earlier about the sense of identity and community. When I entered this House I took the title Alcluith, which is the Gaelic name for Dumbarton. Literally translated it means rock on the Clyde. It comprises the towns of Helensburgh, Dumbarton, Vale of Leven and Clydebank—all proud of their heritage of shipbuilding, and all having a sense of community with the past.

Those areas were encapsulated in the county of Dumbarton. That stretched quite a bit in our area. The county of Dumbarton, going way back to the 1960s and earlier, had a sense of identity. Someone who was on the council in the county of Dumbarton is now the provost of the new Argyll area, Provost Billy Petrie. I have known Billy for many years. He was a fine politician who has been there for 40 years. He has served throughout that time. I mention his name because, as my noble friend Lord McAvoy said, with the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994, the Minister Allan Stewart, another fine individual with whom I have had very positive relationships in opposition and government while engaging in the political process, decided to take Helensburgh and the lochside area of Luss out of the area of Dumbarton and put it into Argyll. I base my comments on conversations that I had with him. The simple reason for that was that a number of local Conservative politicians in Helensburgh got a bit fed up with the obtuse attitude of a number of Labour councillors in the local area. I had sympathy for that attitude at the time, but I told them not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and that if they put that area into Argyll they would mix two areas with very little in common. All the economic interests from Helensburgh are eastwards and engage with Dumbarton, not northwards up to Argyll. Nevertheless, they went ahead with the change, all because of a short-term conflict, but with no long-term strategic consideration. I suggest to this House that that amalgamation made no sense.