Capital Investment and Share Ownership

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to implementing an updated public-private partnership model to attract capital investment and to open share ownership to more people.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to working in partnership with the private sector to deliver the infrastructure that our country desperately needs. We will set out our approach to unlocking greater private investment in UK infrastructure in the 10-year infrastructure strategy, which will be published alongside the spending review in June.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that response. I wonder whether I can persuade the Minister to move rather faster with the suggestion, which some of us have been pursuing, that we need to review the structure of the PPPs that we had under the previous Labour Government. We need to extend it so that we have wider participation of not just government departments but cities and mayors. On the other side of the fence, we need to extend the private side and give individual citizens the right to shares in these new ventures. Is the Minister prepared to meet a small group of us to talk in advance of the review?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his question. As I say, the Government will publish a cross-cutting 10-year strategy for the UK’s social, economic and housing infrastructure in June, alongside the spending review. It will help to drive growth, deliver net zero and support improved public services by providing more coherence across different types of infrastructure than has been the case in the past. Of course, I am more than happy to meet my noble friend and the group he mentioned.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, some public/private partnerships have worked very well. The contract for difference system has been very good at getting a huge amount of private sector investment into the offshore wind sector. Others have proved far less successful. For example, there have been crippling costs for schools that have had long-term, low-quality, high-cost maintenance programmes. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell your Lordships’ House how the Treasury is learning from this. How is it involving the private sector in developing the right risk and reward structures for the right projects? How is it involving local authorities, which often end up picking up the cost of these public/private partnerships

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right in much of what he says. The private finance initiative was a specific public/private partnership model that was developed 20 years ago. The Government are actively managing the legacy PFI portfolio and learning lessons from that. The Infrastructure and Projects Authority believes that there is an opportunity for the public and private sectors to reset relationships, improve performance and deliver high-quality public facilities and services. Of course, lessons have been learned from the past. On 24 March the National Audit Office will publish a report called:

“Lessons learned: Private finance for infrastructure”.

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

The PFI has been a very mixed bag, but parts of it have been highly successful. Unfortunately, the Treasury’s approach to negotiating run-off in PFI has led a large number of top-flight managers in these good PFI projects to leave the industry altogether and seek work elsewhere. What steps are the Government taking to make sure that there is no further attrition?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

As the noble Lord says, many of the private finance initiative contracts are coming to an end within the next decade. It is important to prepare early for a seamless transition to the public sector to protect taxpayers’ money. The Infrastructure and Projects Authority is responsible on the Treasury’s behalf, providing oversight and support to the portfolio of operational PFIs. It carries out regular health checks and, to date, around 215 expiry health checks have already taken place.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, a variety of Governments have tried to introduce private sector investment into water sector projects. The Pickering Slow the Flow pilot scheme that I was involved in at a later stage was hugely successful in factoring in a number of public partnerships. Can the Minister look at this to open up, for example, supermarket involvement and farmers contributing to flood resilience in catchment areas?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am very interested in what the noble Baroness says, and I will look at that further. As I say, the 10-year infrastructure strategy will be the point at which we set out the Government’s approach to private investment in infrastructure. I cannot say more than that at this point.

[Lord Macpherson of Earl’s Court (CB)]

My Lords, does the Financial Secretary agree that, generally, the quality of PFI projects has improved over time, with an increasing number transferring risk successfully to the private sector and the projects being delivered on budget and on time? Given that the ONS now classifies pretty much all PFI projects as being on balance sheet, can he encourage the Treasury to provide sufficient expenditure cover in the spending review to support innovative public/private partnership proposals?

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[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

As the noble Lord describes, there have of course been positive examples of PFI projects. For example, more than 100 hospitals were built by the previous Labour Government’s PPP programme. The Government are absolutely committed to harnessing private investment and restoring growth. On the latter part of his question, as I said before, the 10-year infrastructure strategy will be the point at which we set out the Government’s view of that, and it will be published alongside the spending review in June.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we should be wary, not least because of the experience with PPI in things such as schools and hospitals, which several noble Lords have mentioned, about the establishment of public/private partnerships? Can I encourage him to be a little more forthcoming? What does he see as the risks? How will the Government assess value for money for the new schemes, perhaps with the help of the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which he mentioned, whose work I respect?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am afraid the noble Baroness cannot encourage me to be more forthcoming. As I have said, the 10-year infrastructure strategy will be the point at which we set out the Government’s approach to private investment in infrastructure. I think she will agree with me that private investment is vital for the country’s infrastructure. The Chancellor has established the British Infrastructure Taskforce, made up of some of the UK’s biggest financial companies. That will support the Government’s infrastructure goal and ensure that the strategy is credible and deliverable.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, of course the public/private partnerships and PFIs had risks, and of course there were failures. That is almost inevitable in any new experimental and radical approach to funding services. But the truth is that over the last 20-odd years, the level of services to people in Britain has been much higher because of our engagement with the private sector. Can I therefore encourage my noble friend the Minister and his colleagues not to be deterred when it comes to infrastructure? There is no doubt in my mind that huge added value is possible if we are prepared to be bold in public/private partnerships.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for those words, and I agree with much of what he said. The Government remain absolutely committed to harnessing private investment and restoring growth. We will work in partnership with the private sector while ensuring that projects provide value for money for taxpayers, now and in the future, and that appropriate lessons are learned from the past.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is not the key to a successful private finance initiative the appropriate transfer of risk? To ensure that happens, it is important to have the people in the Treasury or elsewhere with the necessary skills to negotiate the appropriate contracts. In wishing the Government well in taking this forward, I ask them to give consideration as to how they will achieve that.

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[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right. He is far more expert in these matters than I am, but I absolutely agree with him. Clearly, the public sector needs to be an intelligent client when it is negotiating with the private sector. That skill set is vital both within the Civil Service and in the skills we can draw on. As I mentioned, the Chancellor has established the British Infrastructure Taskforce to try to help with skills and advice. It is made up of some of the UK’s biggest financial companies, and it will support the Government’s infrastructure goals and ensure that the strategy is credible and deliverable.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the disastrous Blair PFI NHS hospitals scheme. I do not think there is much awareness that about half the money is still to be paid off. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred to the cost to local government. The Minister is probably aware of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research figure: local government is paying £13.5 billion. The institute also found that £1 billion had been made in pre-tax profit by a handful of companies, often registered in Guernsey and Jersey. Is PFI not simply a benefit to the financial sector?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I think it was probably a benefit to the people who were able to be treated in the 100 hospitals that were built as a result of it. As I say, the private finance initiative was a specific public/private partnership model that was developed 20 years ago. The Government are actively managing the legacy PFI portfolio, and we are learning lessons from that.