International Banking: Payments

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Thursday 28th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the plan by the BRICS countries to establish a separate banking payments system, and of the implications for the international banking system and the ability of the United Kingdom and its allies to impose economic sanctions.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government believe an integrated global financial system is the best way to achieve global prosperity and financial stability. Fragmentation is damaging to the global economy, whereas deep, liquid markets boost economic efficiency. That is why we will continue to work with our international partners to strengthen the rules-based international system and our interconnected financial and economic systems.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. While the idea of a BRICS payment system, which was announced by Mr Putin at the BRICS conference in Kazan, may seem rather fanciful and a long way off, it nevertheless needs to be taken seriously. Does he not agree that, if it ever happened, it would be a major threat to the western-led financial system? Above all, it would make it impossible for the West to impose sanctions on countries such as Russia, China, Iran or other malign countries. Is the Minister aware that, after the BRICS conference, Chinese state media reported that the proposed new payment system would be based on technology taken from the Bank of International Settlements, with its bridge development? Is he also aware that America has apparently expressed some concern to the Bank of International Settlements about this transfer of technology to possible malign actors? Should we not be taking this very seriously?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for the points that he raises, and I agree that, of course, we should take these developments seriously. I will not comment on the specific proposals announced by the BRICS countries that he refers to; I would not want to speculate as to what systems may or may not come into common usage. The Government believe very much that the current international model for the financial system works effectively, and we will continue to work with our international partners to maintain an interconnected financial and economic system. On the noble Lord’s question on the effectiveness of sanctions, we continue to believe that economic sanctions are an important and effective tool, and we will continue to utilise those sanctions where necessary. On the potential to undermine them, we will pursue any necessary steps with our allies to maintain the interconnected system and reduce opportunities for the circumvention or evasion of international sanctions.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the President-elect of the United States goes ahead with some of the more extreme versions of his tariff ideas, it is likely to add a momentum and an impetus to the attempts by the BRICS to break away from the financial system that currently exists?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. On the potential move by the forthcoming Trump Administration, the UK will continue to work closely with the US on a range of security issues, including sanctions, to advance our shared priorities. I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the Trump Administration’s future policies. In terms of actions by the BRICS, we obviously respect each country’s right to choose its own path and partners, but we will continue to collaborate with our international colleagues around the globe, including BRICS members, in forums such as the UN and G20, to build an open, stable and prosperous world.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, because of my complex family, I need to transfer funds across international borders several times a year. The system assumes I am a terrorist, the banks have rip-off charges and exchange rates and obstructive technology. Even the new online apps, for which I had high hopes, have very severe limitations. Do western Governments, including ours, understand that if they fail to remedy this absolutely hapless international payments system, and the BRICS devise any international payment that is even halfway efficient and reasonably priced, users will simply flock to the BRICS system out of sheer frustration?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I share some of the noble Baroness’ frustrations in this regard. I am always happy to vouch for her that she is not a terrorist; I am very certain of that fact. The noble Baroness is obviously making a very serious point. Clearly, fragmentation along the lines that she describes would be very damaging to the global economy—we must ensure that this does not proceed. The evidence of the extent to which fragmentation has occurred is mixed, and we should keep an eye on the data. I very much bear in mind the points she makes.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

Can the Minister understand the concerns of BRICS and other countries about how the US uses the dollar for political ends, such as sanctions against Cuba?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

No, I would not agree with my noble friend on that point.

[Lord Marland (Con)]

My Lords, many emerging markets are relying on the RMB for funding, which will form the cornerstone of the BRICS payment system. Will the Government review this overzealous regulation—which the noble Baroness referred to from the retail side—but from a commercial side, which is forcing British banks to withdraw from funding in emerging markets?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

It is extremely important that British companies are able to engage in emerging markets in the way the noble Lord describes, and I will happily look at the point that he raises.

[Lord Skidelsky (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, stated in this House on 15 October:

“Sanctions … are a crucial tool to weaken Russia’s ability to attack Ukraine”.—[Official Report, 15/10/24; col. GC 21.]


After nearly three years of sanctions, do the Government still consider them to be an effective tool, especially in the light of the evasions which have been mentioned earlier in the debate? I call upon the Government yet again to give an undertaking to publish their assessment of the effectiveness of the sanctions regime, so we can have an evidence-based debate on the subject rather than being fobbed off with mere assertion.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

The answer to the noble Lord’s first question, in terms of whether we consider them effective, is yes. In the case of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, these measures have dramatically reduced Russia’s access to global financial markets and weakened its ability to finance its illegal invasion of Ukraine. Russia’s increasing reliance on North Korean and Iranian weapons highlights the impact these sanctions have had. We will pursue any necessary steps with our allies to maintain and reduce opportunities for the circumvention or evasion of international sanctions.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a sensible use of the sanctions now might be to seize the money that has been taken and sanctioned from the Russian regime and give it to the Ukrainians now, while they can use it?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

That is very much the spirit that lies behind the Financial Assistance to Ukraine Bill, which will shortly be before your Lordships’ House. The Financial Assistance to Ukraine Bill provides spending authority for the UK to implement our commitment to the G7 Extraordinary Revenue Acceleration Loans to Ukraine scheme, a landmark agreement which provides a collective £50 billion to Ukraine.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, there is much evidence that the international order is undergoing a process of major and very troubling change. The BRICS proposal is just one manifestation of this phenomenon. Given what we have heard from my noble friend Lord Lamont, does the Minister agree that we must be even more clear-sighted as to where our national interests lie? In particular, can he outline what the Government are doing to protect our substantial interests in the financial services industry and indeed in the interconnected system that he mentioned?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that we should of course always proceed from a position of our own national interest. The Chancellor in her Mansion House speech two weeks ago set out a very comprehensive programme to ensure that our financial services industry was examined from that position of our own national interest and set out a comprehensive set of proposals in that regard.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister give the House an update on the proceeds from the sale of Chelsea Football Club, which were supposed to have been released and sent to help humanitarian causes in Ukraine?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

I am afraid I do not have that specific information to hand, but I am more than happy to write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we know that the BRICS grouping of countries is looking to expand, and has recently invited allies of ours, such as the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, dare I say it. What conversations do the Government intend to have with those two allies, particularly as the BRICS grouping promotes its alternative international financial system?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

As I said earlier, we absolutely respect each country’s right to choose its own path and its own partners, including which international groupings it associates with. The UK will continue to collaborate on international challenges with countries right across the globe—including the BRICS members that he mentions—in forums such as the UN and the G20, to build an open, stable and prosperous world.