Automated Vehicles Bill [HL]

Lord Liddle Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I first make it clear that the Opposition—the Labour Party—support the principle of this measure, although as we have seen in this debate, there is a wide-ranging set of issues that arises, which I dare say that the civil servants who have been listening will be busily examining over the coming days. We are looking forward to a somewhat extended Committee stage, if some of these issues are judged within the scope of the Bill. It will also be a very entertaining one if we continue to have contributions such as those from the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and some of the other noble Lords who have spoken.

Why do we support the Bill? It is because we desperately need to move forward in this country to try to raise our rate of economic growth. One of the most obvious ways of doing this is by harnessing, through successful commercial exploitation, the advances in science and technology for which we, as a country, are renowned. So this is part of a big agenda that is crucial to our future prosperity.

We do have a real problem. I will put this in a non-party-political way. In the John Major and Tony Blair premierships, from 1991 to 2007, national productivity rose by 27%. Since 2007, it has risen by 1.7%. So we have a dramatic growth problem. I suppose this is a subset of the artificial intelligence revolution, which we have to be part of if we are going to succeed as a country. My friend and colleague in the other place, Peter Kyle, who is now in charge of innovation and research—whatever that new department is called—sees this question of how we mobilise these technological advances for growth as one of the great progressive causes of our time.

In some respects, the Government have gone about this in the right way, in trying to establish a partnership body through injecting public money in partnership with academic expertise, scientists, engineers and corporations. I share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, that this should not exclude the smaller innovators, but I also very much share the view of my colleague, my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, that any partnership work should involve the trade unions. As someone said, this will have enormous consequences for jobs in the future and we must involve the trade unions from an early stage.

The Bill is legal and technical, and it is necessary, but of course it is not the whole answer—it is not a policy framework for autonomous vehicles. Reading it, I thought that, if only we had a magic wand and could bring automated vehicles into play overnight, getting rid of all that we have now, the Bill would be a perfect example of how to regulate that. But we are not in that situation: we in fact face decades of hybridity, or a mixed system—however you want to describe it—and that is the immediate regulatory task.

I will pick the Minister up on one point he made early in his remarks. He mentioned that the safety benefits of automated vehicles were “plain to see”. Well, they might be in this idealised future that we might get to some time, but are they “plain to see” in this hybrid world, which will be the real world of the next 20 or 30 years?

There are lots of issues about what safety standards we set. If we have a significant number of accidents, it will put back the development of these technologies in a very rapid way. I picked up an article in the Financial Times—a great authority—by a Mr Richard Waters, describing what had happened in California, where the regulators have actually halted operations at Cruise, the General Motors driverless car division, because of accidents in California. We do not want to get ourselves into that situation, so we have to move forward in a way that will prevent that kind of eventuality—and there are lots of issues in that regard.

The insurance and legal questions around what happens when a so-called “transition demand” occurs are very complicated. There is the issue that the House of Commons Transport Committee raised in a very good report: what happens to the driving skills of drivers who become gradually reliant on automated systems? How do we keep their driving skills up to date? What sort of test should you have to pass to be a driver who part-relies on automation but is then capable of taking control in an emergency? I know that some people talk about 10 seconds but, if you are doing your emails or talking on the phone to an important colleague, would you be capable of doing this in 10 seconds? I do not know. There seem to be a lot of issues here.

Of course, there are other issues, not just to do with the car, the systems and the driver but to do with the networks within which these vehicles will run. Failings in digital connectivity is the obvious one. I have just finished 10 years on Cumbria County Council and, if someone had told us that we had to spend millions of pounds on the database of our road system, I would have had lots of Conservative councillors getting up and saying, “You’re not wasting your money on all of that—what about the potholes?” We would have a real problem with local authority finance in what strikes me as potentially a very costly exercise.

Then there is the question of regulation of the agencies in the Department for Transport that will have to put these systems in place. There is the question of skills: will the people in the agencies have the right skills to do the job properly? We all know that what will happen is that the brightest and most capable people will be employed by the companies, which will have the sources of expertise. So there are lots of issues that we need to face.

We need an effective system of regulation, and we have to think about how that is going to work. We do not want a system of regulation that holds things back —the man with a red flag who has to walk in front of the vehicle. We have to avoid that kind of regulation. Equally, we have to approach it from the point that people will expect that this new technology will produce not just the status quo in safety but a real advance, with fewer accidents, fewer deaths and fewer life-changing injuries.

The key is to develop a regulatory system that is rapidly adaptable. That is an easy thing to say, but when we think about regulation and the way it works—or the way I have observed it working in Britain in many different forms—we see that it is not very adaptable. We have great crises that result in regulatory reviews; they come up with long reports that make lots of recommendations and then those reports lie on people’s shelves and do not get acted on. We have to be more flexible and adaptable than we have been. Regulation is a good thing, but it has to be flexible and adaptable. We have to get away from the mindset of, “As little regulation as possible is what is good for the country”. We have to have good regulation, not bad regulation, and if we do, we may be able to take advantage of the great opportunities that these technological advances offer.

Birmingham Highways Infrastructure Private Finance Initiative

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I can say that “imminently” is as meant in the English dictionary, which means probably about to happen.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Will the Minister urge the Treasury to give some thought to the bigger picture on this question? Here we have Birmingham, one of the largest cities in the country and the centre of a region that is prospering as a result of investment, some of which owes its success to the HS2 decision. It has an activist mayor. We on this side may disagree with his politics, but he has certainly managed to put Birmingham on the map. It is a city region on the verge of first-world rank and status. How would it make any sense for the Treasury to consign the highways of Birmingham city to third-world circumstances?

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I do not necessarily agree with the latter part of the noble Lord’s comments, but on the first part, I will take his message back to the Treasury.

Rail Fares

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I hear what the noble Lord says, and I think that I will take that one back as well.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Does the Minister recognise that as long ago as 2019 the Government accepted that there was chaos in the present rail fare structures about which something had to be done? The answer was to set up Great British Railways, which would have new powers to deal with this question. Given the urgency of getting more passengers back on the railway, given the rise in public subsidy to the railways from £4 billion to £13 billion in four years, why have the Government ducked doing this?

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

Well, again, I will—

Air Travel: Disabled Passengers

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to see the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, in his place fulfilling his duties as a Government Whip, having so recently been introduced to the House. We look forward to seeing much more of him.

What we are talking about here is a fundamental issue of equality and we clearly have to do something about it. I shall not speak for long on the issue; we have heard moving contributions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Ludford. The question is: what are the Government doing about it?

In the case of air travel, this is obviously primarily an international issue, so there is the difficult question of how one enforces standards across the EU, with the US and across the world as a whole, but there is no excuse for the poor treatment of people with disabilities on public transport in our own country. We have to do better than we are at present. The numerous reports of problems are really unanswerable.

What are the Government doing to monitor compliance with the relevant domestic legislation? In the case of airlines, is this something that they regard as the CAA’s responsibility and therefore the department does not have to do much, or is the department itself taking these questions seriously? If it is, what in the near future is it planning to do about it?

Mopeds, Motorcycles and Powered Light Vehicle Industry

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, for her intelligent introduction to this brief debate. I agree with many of the points that have been made by other members. The key points made by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, about the merger of typologies and the diversity of what technical change is bringing are things that we have to take into account.

While the net zero dimension of all this is important, it is not the whole story. It is a net zero policy, as someone said, but we have to consider the whole issue in the context of the problems that emissions from these vehicles pose compared with those from cars. Is it proportionate to apply the same tests to them?

A dimension of this that not many noble Lords have referred to is that of industrial policy, which I am personally very interested in. We used to have a thriving motorcycle industry in Britain; it has declined, but there are still some firms that are now growing. What are the Government doing to promote that industry? Do they have a forum of regular consultation with the industry to see what can be done to help it to compete? Of course, that industry needs a clear regulatory framework for the future. That regulatory framework also has to align with what is happening globally, particularly in Europe, because people are not just producing for the domestic market. What is happening on the industrial policy dimension?

I have a couple of other questions for the Minister. Given that emissions from these vehicles, especially when viewed on an all-life basis, are often less than from cars, has the Minister considered taking steps in order to encourage drivers to switch? Have the Government thought about that question? On another point, it has been reported that, increasingly, vehicles in this category are being used for food delivery services. What assessment have the Government made of this? Would promoting electric light vehicles be a good way of reducing emissions from vans that traditionally do this job?

Above all, I think that the simple point is that the Government are dithering on their policy. They have had lots of consultations, but they are not offering the sector any clarity. It is time that they did so. My direct question to the Minister is: are the Government planning to do anything that will give clarity to the industry between now and the general election?

Pedicabs (London) Bill [HL]

Lord Liddle Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I also welcome the promotion of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, to a ministerial position at the Department for Transport. He has spent his whole life in public service in one way or another: in the police force, then as a Member of the Welsh Assembly, as an MP and now in this House. My hobby is history and particularly labour history. One of the most remarkable things about the noble Lord, if I might say so, is that in the whole of the Gower constituency’s existence—it was created by the Third Reform Act 1884—it has only once been represented by a Conservative, I think. It was represented continuously by a radical Liberal, then a Lib-Lab, then Labour from 1885 until 2015, when he won it by 27 votes. That situation has not lasted, but at least we now have the benefit of his wisdom in this House.

I also thank people who have welcomed me back to this Front Bench after a 10-year absence. I am supporting my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, who cannot be here today for personal reasons and apologises for that, but I am greatly looking forward to doing transport. I am a railwayman’s son from Carlisle, so I was brought up in transport. I was a councillor in Oxford, where I think my noble friend Lord Hunt and I would now be described as warriors against motorists, I am afraid, but I think we did a lot to improve the quality of life in central Oxford.

Labour supports the Bill and the Opposition Front Bench will be constructive in its approach to it. I do not see it as a party-political matter but as closing a legal loophole that has been allowed to exist for far too long. In fact, when I looked at the Lords briefing note, it told us that a complaint about this was first made by the London Assembly in 2005. Boris Johnson, when he was Mayor of London, pointed out that this was a legal anomaly in 2012, as did the Law Commission in 2014. No wonder we fail as a country when we cannot manage to get things sorted in some quicker timeframe than this. There has been a cross-party desire to have it sorted: Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, and Adam Hug, the new leader of Westminster Council, along with the distinguished Conservatives whom people have mentioned, have wanted action on this matter. For a long time, it seemed that the Government offered general support but without any promise of action. Now we have action and, although it is too late for many people who have been ripped off, we welcome it none the less.

This has been a very interesting Second Reading. A thought has been going through my mind. I discussed the Bill with the lady who organises the timetables and she said, “Oh, I think we will probably get through this in an afternoon”. Having listened to this debate, I am not sure whether Committee will be got through in an afternoon. It seems to me that noble Lords have raised a lot of points that will need to be explored in Committee.

There is the philosophical point about what we are trying to do through regulation. Are we trying to stop pedicabs altogether or to regulate them so that the rogue operators disappear from the scene? I have some sympathy with my noble friend Lord Berkeley’s argument that we do not want to stifle innovation and competition in this world. At the same time, the passion with which the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, spoke on the subject would clearly convince anyone that this is a gap in regulation that must be dealt with. We have to get the balance right, for all the reasons that many noble Lords have mentioned.

The noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, talked about one of the most powerful reasons—the damage to the reputation of London as a good place for tourism. You cannot have these instances of people being charged £500 for a 500-yard journey written about in foreign newspapers and described on foreign TV without it having a damaging effect. Of course, it will be magnified in any overseas media reporting and made into something that is regarded as a common problem. For that reason alone, we must act.

Noble Lords asked about the framework of the legislation. My view is that it ought essentially to be devolved. Our role is to set the right framework; we can debate the parameters within which TfL should work, but it is fundamentally for Sadiq Khan and TfL to draw up the precise legislation. I have some sympathy with the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, about the potential for delay and confusion if the rules come in the form of a statutory instrument which a Minister has to approve. What happens if the Minister, the mayor and TfL are not in the same place? We could have years of further delay. I do not have a settled view, but the role of the ministry must be looked at in Committee.

Noble Lords have made a considerable agenda of points that have impressed me. What the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, said about issues of definition must be thought about. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, spoke about e-scooters and e-bikes; we must try to press through this legislation for action in this related area. I think there would be widespread support for that in this House. The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, show the benefit of having people with real professional expertise in this House. When we are looking at the criteria that TfL will have to consider, we should debate whether we want to include his points about insurance, how you identify the cabs, fines being treated as a business expense and whether drivers should have some training in the knowledge.

Also, how is the whole thing going to be enforced, and does TfL have the resources to enforce it properly? Those are crucial questions. It is not just about fares; it is about a wider set of issues as well.

I will make one final point, which noble Lords may think a political one; none the less, it has to be made. This Government have chosen to legislate on pedicabs when there is a huge need for regulatory reform in transport, which they are ducking. We need legislation for buses in the provinces, so that local government can work effectively with bus operators to provide proper networks of services. As for the railways, they are in a terrible mess. In the four years following Covid, public spending on the railways—noble Lords opposite should be interested in this point—has gone up from some £4 billion to £13 billion. However, we are not going to get any change in that situation without the regulatory reform—the establishment of Great British Rail—that the Government promised. Now, all they are doing is producing legislation without actually legislating. This is a very bad situation.

In conclusion, we support the pedicabs Bill, although there are lots of issues we will have to discuss in Committee. However, on the wider agenda of transport reform, the King’s Speech has been a great disappointment.

Great British Railways

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are always looking at what we can do to improve the services and passenger experience on our railways. We are looking at simplifying fares. The noble Lord will know that we have introduced single-leg pricing on LNER and are looking to potentially do a trial around demand-based pricing. All of these things will serve to put downward pressure on prices.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a regular Avanti user. I have been in correspondence with the Minister about the train service fairly frequently. Does she accept that, if one of the big objectives of this Government is to level up between the north and the south in England, and to provide good connections to Scotland, a decent service on the west coast main line is absolutely essential? That does not exist. The proposed legislation, as I understand it, is very short; it is enabling legislation. The fact is that the Government have taken a political decision not to go ahead with this, and I would like her to explain why.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot explain the reason why because that decision has, of course, not been taken. The noble Lord mentions Avanti, and I pay tribute to Avanti, because the quality of its services has improved enormously recently. At the end of May, cancellations on Avanti were just 1.4%—which is very good among train operating companies—and 93.8% of services were “on time”, meaning within 15 minutes of arrival time. Those figures do compare favourably.

Great British Railways and Rail Services in the North

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, when I read the Williams review, I thought it was a very well-considered document. I would like to ask the Minister a number of questions about services affecting the north and my own home area. What is the real reason for the delay in not going ahead with the Great British Railways proposal? Is it legislative time? As others have pointed out, we have had a lot of pretty useless Bills, which are totally unimplementable, going through this place at great length, such as the asylum and immigration Bills, and all sorts of others that people could cite. Is legislative time the reason, or is it that the Treasury, having realised how much overspending has occurred, particularly in London, as a result of Covid, simply wants to find a way of keeping the transport budget within bounds by cutting back on future investments which were once promised?

On Avanti trains and TransPennine Express, can the Minister tell us firmly what her timetable for a decision on these franchises is? If there is no improvement, when will she act? I do not see any evidence of improvement in my own journeys to and from the north. What I see, from London to Glasgow, is virtually every other train being cancelled, and the trains that are left being packed out. Who financially benefits from this? Does the operator benefit from it? Do the Government? Will she make a statement on how the finances of the chaos in these franchises actually work out?

The Government do not appreciate the economic damage that this chaos produces. In recent years—the past decade or two—we have had a lot of people come to live up north in Cumbria on the basis that they can run a consultancy business, which involves regular travel a couple of days a week probably to London, Birmingham or other parts of the country. However, this model of living in a nice place in the north and occasionally going to see your clients in the south just does not work if we do not have an effective train service. People will give up on it. That is a worrying development.

Finally, since George Osborne in 2011-12, the Government have talked at great length about the northern powerhouse, getting on with the east-west link and all that, but what is actually happening? When will contractors start on building something new to link our great northern cities together? I fear that what we need is not a lot of talk but some action. We are not getting any decisive action by this Government.

Rail Cancellations and Service Levels

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, I am deeply disappointed by what the noble Lord experienced. Ministers do travel on these services; I get it in the neck quite frequently from colleagues. I reassure the noble Lord that I have arranged a meeting with the Rail Minister, as promised previously in your Lordships’ House. That is now in the diary and I hope to be able to share the date of that meeting with noble Lords. I hope the noble Lord will come to that meeting, set out his concerns and allow the Rail Minister to set out exactly what the Government are doing, working with Avanti, TPE and many of the train operating companies, to improve services across the country.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

I should declare an interest as a regular traveller from Carlisle to London with Avanti, as well as an occasional traveller with TPE to see my son and daughter-in-law in Edinburgh. What evidence is there that their services are improving? When I came down on Monday morning, every other train from Glasgow to London was cancelled—a 50% cut. Whereas the normal journey time from Carlisle to London is three hours and 20 minutes, it has extended the timetable by at least half an hour and then a high proportion of the trains are late. Why have the Government not acted, as a decisive Government would, and withdrawn the franchise from these disastrous operators?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have acted in a very decisive fashion.

Train Driving Licences and Certificates (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Lord Liddle Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her clear explanation and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for giving us this opportunity to discuss an important issue. I also place on record the excellence of the Library briefing that we received on this, which is very helpful.

This SI is an example of the complex contortions that we are forced into to recreate—or recreate in part—the system that existed before we left the EU. It is a pale imitation. So much ministerial and Civil Service time is spent on the minutiae of this and dozens of similar SIs, when it would be so much better if Ministers could concentrate on the big infrastructure and climate change challenges that we face—or even just on catching up with the backlog of maritime legislation.

The Minister has answered my first question, of whether the agreement has now been signed. I am very pleased to hear that is the case. Can she confirm that, now that both countries have signed, there is no chance of a legislative hiatus, a problem that was facing us? It is regrettable, to say the least, that Parliament having passed the required amendments in 2019 and 2020, as so often, the further steps required are being dealt with at the last moment. I gather that the operators concerned had already obtained European TDLs for their drivers so that they could continue to drive trains through the Channel Tunnel if the signatures were not forthcoming. Once again, a business community is at the sharp end and incurring extra costs.

As the regret amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, spells out, this is a very limited solution, far from the smooth international trade and travel that we used to enjoy. It is ironic that it was in the heyday of Thatcherism that we celebrated the Channel Tunnel joining Britain and mainland Europe to make international trade and travel so much easier.

As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has asked about the relevance of Ashford and Calais and whether you have one driver or two, I will not repeat the detail of those questions, but they are at the top of my mind. Can the Minister explain what the operational answer will be to this in future? Will trains have two drivers so that they can swap over once they have gone through the tunnel in whichever direction they are going, or will they now all stop at Calais and Ashford, which would involve a significant adjustment to the timetables? During Covid, trains have not stopped there on a regular basis.

The Library briefing also raises some important questions in relation to the rights of HGV drivers. The phrasing of the regret amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, gives me the opportunity to ask a useful question on the issue for UK-based HGV drivers working for EU companies. Their CPC cards may not be recognised in EU countries. Is this an issue? Can the Minister explain the situation? Also, UK operators wanting to work within the EU must now separately license their business, register their vehicles and trailers, and comply with new and additional customs procedures.

The Minister knows that, in the past, I have asked about the changes to UK rules on testing for drivers of a range of commercial and goods vehicles. There are now fewer steps towards gaining a UK licence, so I take this opportunity to ask the Minister: where do the changes in licences place an HGV driver qualified according to the Government’s new, simpler rules if they have an accident or are picked up by the police for a traffic violation within the EU, for instance? Will they still be deemed fully qualified and insured?

May I slip in a final question about the recent queues at Dover? Drivers are now reporting that it takes between 10 and 20 minutes for a lorry to get through and have the paperwork checked. The CEO of the Port of Dover has expressed additional concern about the new checks that will come in in about six months’ time. Can the Minister assure us that the procedures and systems are entirely ready for that? Have the Government had discussions with opposite numbers in France and the EU about ensuring that this process is as smooth as possible?

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to say how much I support what my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said. They have raised lots of detailed issues, which I hope we will get a clear answer to at the end of the debate. I just want to add one thing. What is the Government’s vision for international rail travel of which Britain is a part? Is that the way that they are thinking about it, or are they thinking, “Oh well, we can’t do anything because it involves ECJ jurisdiction”, or something like that? Where is the vision? There is a real opportunity here: if we are serious about reducing air travel and all the damage it does to the climate, we have to be in favour of more people going on holiday or on business on the continent by rail. The opportunity is growing. I was lucky enough to be brought up as a railway clerk’s son and, every year, we would use our free passes to go from Carlisle to the continent.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I have often wondered about that. First class too?

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

Yes, first class, too. It gave me a great taste for it, when we arrived at Basel and saw the great age of international rail transport, which was then gradually coming to an end as flying was growing. But it is coming back. Last year—or two years ago, before all the wretched Covid—we went on the wonderful Austrian sleepers to bring us back to Britain, except they could not bring us back to Britain, of course; they could bring us only to Cologne and then we had to get a train from there. But why should that not be part of the vision? Do the Government have this European vision? That is what we need and it is where the future lies if we are serious about a modal switch in medium-distance travel.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the comments made by my noble friend Lord Liddle, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Berkeley for having moved his regret amendment.

When I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, it brought to my mind that vision of the former Prime Minister Mrs Thatcher meeting President Mitterrand when they had the two Eurostars coming nose to nose. I believe that they had to alter the software of the trains to enable that to happen. It was an era of great promise for future travel in Europe and, although I fully understand that the regulations that the Minister has ably moved tonight are necessary and welcome, it is rather depressing to think that we are being restricted.