Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Baroness Warsi

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, I will be extremely brief but I support the very powerful speech made by my noble friend Lord Deben. I was actually in the audience when he and Kenneth Clarke debated with Sir Oswald Mosley. I remember shouting out some rather abrasive heckles at Sir Oswald Mosley and getting a rather rude reply. My noble friend was absolutely right in what he said: the meeting demonstrated very much the shortcomings of the arguments put forward by Sir Oswald Mosley, and the British movement before the war as well.

I have one or two points about the guidelines. I know we will come to an amendment on them later, but given the way that this House works I suspect a lot of future debates will get collapsed into this particular amendment. As I said earlier when I intervened rather rudely on the Minister, what particularly bothers me is this whole concept of non-violent extremism. I listened to his answer but, to be honest, did not really feel that it really met the point—I will study it very carefully in the Official Report tomorrow in case I missed something.

The point I addressed particularly was about this meeting where I spoke, along with the editor of the Sunday Telegraph, at Queen Mary college in London. The meeting consisted entirely of Muslim students, a large number of whom made it very clear that they did not support terrorism or violence but wished to dispute the basis of western democracy and elections. They preferred a more consultative process—shura—rather than western democracy, and I and the editor of the Sunday Telegraph argued with them. I believe that it was a good thing to hold that meeting openly, on the campus, and have that thoroughly aired. At the end of the meeting, some expressed some sympathy with what was said and some did not. However, I do not believe for one minute that it would have been right to ban such a meeting. That seems to be an example of exactly this phrase, “non-violent extremism”. We should be careful here. As the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said, so many things restrict freedom of speech in this country already.

There are many things in the guidelines that I think are open to argument. The noble Lord, Lord Morgan, highlighted the talk of “pathways”. That struck a chord with me, because there is a sentence about,

“intervening to stop people moving from extremist (albeit legal) groups into terrorist-related activity”.

How, precisely, is one to stop people moving from a legal group into something that is illegal? There is also the sentence:

“Islamic extremists specifically attack the principles of civic participation”.

That relates directly to the meeting that I attended at Queen Mary college in London—and I would say it was a very good thing that we discussed whether to participate or not to participate.

Various people have commented on the guidance for speakers at universities, and stressed the point—I shall not make it again—that it is most unlikely that speakers will have a full text. I gave a lecture at a university last week, and I shall not disclose, for fear of offending the university, how late I left the preparation of my remarks.

The guidance also mentions:

“A system for assessing and rating risks”.

If ever I heard of a box-ticking exercise, it is “rating risks”. Are people going to give someone seven out of 10 because he is more dangerous than someone who only gets five out of 10? This, I am afraid, reminds me of the FSA—or the FCA, as it now is—which thinks that it will somehow prevent a financial disaster if risks are rated on a scale of one to 10.

Lastly, there is the point that my noble friend Lord Renfrew raised last week in an intervention on the Minister, when he asked, “What about societies at universities, as opposed to universities themselves?”. If my recollection is right, and if I heard the Minister correctly, I think he said that there would be no problem with societies. However, the guidance document contains a whole section on “Student unions and societies”, in which we are told that they must have regard to who comes to speak to them, what the speaker’s platform is, what supervision there is to see that people can be allowed to challenge them, and so on. There are even phrases about “managing prayer … facilities”. Why should prayers be managed by some sort of authority? This all seems to me far too intrusive, and I would be grateful if the Minister gave the assurance that a lot of these things will be looked at—and, I hope, dropped.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, I support the comments made by my noble friends Lord Deben and Lord Lamont. It may give my noble friends some comfort—or perhaps some concern—when I say that I have many a grey hair from having held these very conversations over a period of four years. Conversations have gone on within government over and over again about what the definitions of “extremism” and “non-violent extremism” are and about where legitimate debate ends and concerns about terrorism and extremism start. Fortunately, the Government did move to a position of providing further definition, but that now has consequences that affect what we are trying to do with the Bill.

I want to raise two specific practical issues in relation to the amendments. The first is about Islamic societies. There is no doubt that there is a battle of ideas within Islam. Certainly there are conversations going on among British Muslims about the flexibility within Islam and the parameters of how Islam should be interpreted, especially within a state where it exists in a minority form, as opposed to a country where Islam is in the majority. These are very real discussions, which need to be had. They will determine what Islam looks like in Britain in a decade’s time and how Britain can feel at ease with a religion that is more comfortable within that environment.

Those debates need to be had, and they are being had, and one of the places where they need to take place is within universities. Specifically, they need to take place in Islamic societies within universities. We have all heard of individual incidents of Islamic societies in universities having had speakers, or having said something, or having configured their meeting, in a way that could be considered unacceptable. Many British Muslim parents who send their children to universities have, in the past, sat down and had “the talk”. That talk does not relate to drugs, sex or anything else that may be more freely available at university. It relates to Islamic societies, and it goes something like this: “When you go there, you need to be careful about some of the ideas you’ll hear. You may want to stay away from those ideas, because you could get in with a group who may have very extreme ideas, and those are not the people we want you to get involved with”.

However, the talk in my household goes further. It says, “Yes, you will meet people who don’t have great ideas, and have ideas you may not agree with. That’s why you’re going to university, because part of your job is to challenge those ideas. So make sure you turn up at Islamic societies. Don’t let people with extreme views take over those societies just because the majority of you want to stay away because they have views you don’t agree with”. But if the provisions in the Bill are enacted without these amendments, the talk from parents like me will become, “Stay away completely, because you could be caught up in something that would label you as an extremist”. That would not be encouraging debate—that very real debate that needs to happen within Islam about the battle of ideas and about what British Islam will look like in a decade. We must not stifle that debate.

Iran

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Baroness Warsi

Thursday 24th October 2013 Grand Committee

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for calling this incredibly timely debate. It is particularly timely because nuclear talks with Iran resumed last week in Geneva, and for the first time in a decade we are seeing serious exchanges between the E3+3 and Iran on the nuclear issue. On the bilateral side, we have agreed with Iran that we will both appoint non-resident chargé d’affaires, which marks a first step towards improving diplomatic relations. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said on 8 October:

“It is clear that the new President and Ministers in Iran are presenting themselves and their country in a more positive way”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/10/13; col. 27.]

That is, of course, welcome. However, the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is right to say that we must advance cautiously. So far, the contact has been thus. On 5 August 2013 the Prime Minister wrote to President Rouhani, and on 23 September the Foreign Secretary met the Iranian Foreign Minister, Mohammad Zarif, in the margins of the UN General Assembly in New York. He spoke to him again on 7 October. The FCO’s political director met the Iranian deputy foreign Minister on 25 September, and again in Geneva on 16 October. However, we remain concerned about a number of Iran’s policies, including regional activity, particularly in Syria, and human rights. We want to see a change in actions, not just a change in words, from Iran.

Iran’s nuclear programme remains our overarching priority. Iran has thus far failed to reassure the international community that its nuclear programme is for purely peaceful purposes and it is therefore right at this stage that the UN and the EU have imposed sanctions on Iran. Given the current sanctions regime, the British Government do not encourage trade with Iran and do not support companies who wish to export to Iran or have a presence within the country. However, trade does continue in humanitarian goods such as medicine and foodstuffs, which are exempt from sanctions.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Has the noble Baroness noticed the report of the UN monitor of human rights who specifically said that the relief from sanctions for medicines and humanitarian purposes for poorer people in Iran is ineffective because the banking sanctions remain?

[Baroness Warsi]

I take the point made by my noble friend. So far as the UK is concerned, we have tried to issue export licenses for these products as a priority, but I understand the challenges that are presented by the banking sanctions. I shall certainly take back the comments that have been made in the debate today, including those referring to CORDS, the organisation that is in attendance here. It is the ambition of the UK Government to resolve the impasse in the nuclear issue peacefully. We therefore hope that President Rouhani’s Government will engage constructively and reach a negotiated settlement with the international community.

I can assure noble Lords, and specifically in response to the comments made by my noble friend Lord Lamont, that we have been open with Iran. We have said clearly that reaching a comprehensive agreement on the nuclear issue would mean the normalisation of political and economic relations with the international community and the end of all nuclear sanctions. Iran’s nuclear programme would be treated in the same manner as that of any other non-nuclear weapon state party to the non-proliferation treaty. A solution to the nuclear problem would mean that normal commercial ties with Iran could resume. It is therefore in all our interests for this matter to be resolved and for us to proceed to the next stage. The E3+3 accepts and respects Iran’s right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. But this remains impossible if Iran continues to expand its nuclear programme in violation of UN Security Council resolutions and multiple resolutions of the IAEA Board of Governors.

Iran’s recent activities go far beyond what is required for a civil nuclear programme. Iran needs to take concrete steps to address international concerns and comply with international resolutions. We therefore welcome the more positive approach taken by the Iranian Government in nuclear talks between Iran and the E3+3 in Geneva last week. Foreign Minister Zarif presented a basis for negotiations and for the first time diplomats have begun more substantive discussions with Iran on issues of concern. We hope that negotiations will lead soon to some tangible results. There is a great deal of hard work ahead and further talks will take place on 7 and 8 November in Geneva. It is important that we maintain the positive momentum of the negotiations while at all times keeping a clear focus on Iran’s continuing efforts to develop its nuclear programme.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and other noble Lords raised the issue of educational ties. We deeply regret that one implication of the lack of progress on the nuclear issue and a consequence of the closure of our embassy in Tehran has been to make it harder for Iranians to apply for visas to travel here as students, and for other visas. While there has been a noticeable drop in the number of students applying for visas, the UK remains committed to fostering educational links and has issued nearly 1,500 student visas via our diplomatic missions in Istanbul and Abu Dhabi. We also continue to run the Chevening Scholarships programme for Iranian students. This scheme is part-funded by the Foreign Office and will enable six outstanding scholars from Iran to study a one-year postgraduate course at a university in the UK.

The British Council suspended operations in Iran in 2009 but, noting President Rouhani’s positive comments regarding engagement with the international community, is now looking again at strengthening cultural and educational links between the UK and Iran. In the mean time, the British Council has supported English language teacher training through the development of digital resources and face-to-face training events outside Iran.

[Baroness Warsi]

I will certainly look at that specific issue, and will continue to press for the overall normalisation of relations, which will impact positively on all visa applications.

In May this year, the British Council also hosted a meeting across the Persian Gulf in Dubai, which brought together senior non-governmental stakeholders from the Iranian education sector to discuss language and education in Iran. Such dialogues are continuing; for instance, with a round-table discussion next month, which will explore the role of cultural relations in developing UK-Iran engagement.

The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, and my noble friend Lord Lamont spoke about banking restrictions. It is regrettable that a number of banks have taken the position that they have. It is not the intention of sanctions for that to have happened. The impact of sanctions on student bank accounts has been as a result of some banks imposing their own restrictions in addition to the sanctions. The FCO has held some initial discussions with the Treasury on how to resolve this issue, and these discussions are currently ongoing.

As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has said, progress in our bilateral relationship with Iran must be on a step-by-step and reciprocal basis. We are open to more direct contact and further improvements in our relationship. It is with this in mind that we are appointing the chargés d’affaires, who will be tasked with rebuilding our relations and dialogue on many issues.

My noble friend Lady Williams is right: one issue where Iran can, and must, play a constructive role is Syria. The new Iranian Government have said that they want to see a peaceful solution to the Syrian conflict. No decision has been made on Iran’s participation in Geneva II. We call on President Rouhani’s Government to match their words with actions and publicly endorse the G8-backed Geneva communiqué, which calls for a negotiation between the Assad regime and the Opposition on a new transitional authority for Syria. Iran has so far failed to endorse that communiqué. Iran’s actions must not prolong the conflict and must not contravene UN Security Council Resolution 1747. However, by supporting the Syrian regime with weapons and financial assistance, unfortunately Iran’s actions continue to do that at this stage.

Finally, as this Committee is well aware, the human rights situation in Iran continues to be a matter of serious concern. We regularly receive reports of serious violations by the Iranian regime against its own citizens and have condemned these. While I accept the comments of my noble friend Lady Williams, Iran does differ in many positive ways on the issue of human rights, women’s rights in particular, but there are still challenges. Women continue to suffer discrimination under Iranian law with a draft Islamic penal code continuing to legitimise disparity between the sexes. We saw a further erosion of women’s rights in Iran in August 2012—

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

I entirely accept what my noble friend is saying, but does she make the same representations equally unequivocally to Saudi Arabia?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not the Minister with responsibility for Saudi Arabia, but I can assure my noble friend that when I last met with the Saudi Justice Minister I was incredibly forthright and frank in the discussions on the issue of women’s rights in Saudi Arabia.

We have made many public statements about women’s rights in Iran, too. The death penalty remains to be used excessively, and Iran has one of the world’s highest per capita execution rates. Discrimination and persecution of religious and ethnic minorities continues, as does torture and intimidation. I would be supportive of anything that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds could encourage the Church of England to do to help foster understanding.

The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, noted some positive moves, including the release of Nasrin Sotoudeh. This is, of course, a welcome step, but more needs to be done to ensure all Iranians enjoy the rights and freedoms to which they are entitled. I can assure the right reverend Prelate that the issue of human rights concerns is as important to us as nuclear concerns. We have designated more than 80 Iranians responsible for human rights violations under EU sanctions and have helped to establish a UN special rapporteur on Iran human rights. We supported Iran-focused human rights resolutions at this year’s UN General Assembly. In relation to Mujahideen-e Khalq and Camp Ashraf, we have called for a timely Iraqi investigation and for those responsible for these terrible attacks to be held to account. I have answered questions on these matters on many occasions before the House.

In conclusion, we sincerely hope that the marked change in Iran’s public statements is accompanied by concrete actions on issues of concern, not least the adoption of a viable approach to nuclear negotiations. If it is, the UK stands ready to work with Iran. We do not underestimate the difficulties ahead, but must take full advantage of any opportunities. If Iran matches its words with genuine steps to address the concerns that have been outlined in today’s debate, the Government believe that there is a rare and significant opportunity for progress to be made, and for our commercial and educational links to be strengthened as a result. This can only be to the benefit of Iran, Britain and the rest of the international community.